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Shifte
06-06-2016, 13:42
Hey folks.

I'm someone who has been one of the vehement critics of Age of Sigmar. However, I liked Silver Tower and I've promised to give the game a chance with the release of points. I'm not entirely unreasonable. I've therefore bought the first book (Mighty Battles in An Age of Unending War) and am reading through it. However I've often struggled to get into this setting, despite finding some aspects that I like recently.

Can anyone answer a few questions for me? I don't want to put this into the background section as it's partly to do with how the books are presented and also a smatttering of queries.

1) I was under the impression that the 8 Mortal Realms were unlimited in size. I didn't like this. However, from what I've read, that doesn't seem to be the case. Am I right in saying that all eight are ill-defined, but not infinite? It talks about there being 9 regions in the Realm of Shadows, the Waaagh going from 'one edge of the realms to the other', Nagash 'losing the surface of the realm of death'. This makes me think that there actually is a limit to the size of the setting? If so, good.

2) The maps don't appear to be very hospitable to life. For example, I'm not sure how anyone could survive on the Brimstone Penninsula as shown in the above mentioned book or why the Bloodbound bothered to set up a fortress on Obsidia Isle in the Seraphon book. I don't understand the strategic relevance of that island, as it is in a sea of lava and appears to have nothing BUT a fortress of cannibals on it. It's a barren rock.

Are the maps highly abstract? Has Chaos made the realms this way, with rivers of fire rather than fishable rivers? When the Stormcast take a region, do people move in behind them and colonise as the realm becomes calmer?

3) Are there or are there not Aelfs? I've heard people say some High, Dark and Wood Elves remain, but also that Tyrion, Teclis, Alarielle and Malekith can't find them? I'd love an explanation as I am a little confused myself.

I'll leave it there for now, but would appreciate any answers from people with the time. :)

Folomo
06-06-2016, 13:52
From what I have got so far:
1) the realms are not infinite, but are so big that for all purpose they are. A region in the beast realm was bigger than the old world for example.

2) Haven't been able to understand this part either. My best recommendation is to not try to apply much logic and gloss that part over. You will enjoy the setting much better if you don't ask why or how.

3) Aelfs are coming latter. GW has been showing each army once at a time without making any appearance before. Some say it is to prevent earlier copy-cats and IP litigations like what happened with chapterhouse

Shifte
06-06-2016, 14:27
Thanks.

On 2), though; I can't avoid thinking about that. It's vital to the battles having stakes.

On 3), but the Wanderers seem to exist already? And the High/Dark Elf equivalents? They have lore. You can even go them in Warhammer Quest and the Wanderers are mentioned in the Sylvaneth lore.

Turgol
06-06-2016, 15:14
1) Not conceptually infinite, but very big. The exact size of each realm has never been cleared. This is used for two points: (i) to justify the very exaggerated narrative of AoS (ex.: the army of X destroyed a continent spawning empire); and (ii) to be able to constantly introduce new places. I don't mind either. They could have maps of some crucial places at the least though, like 40k does with important planets (Terra, Ultramar, Fenris, Armaggedon, etc). This would make the setting easier to grasp and give some connection between GW's fluff production and the players.

2) Aqsy (Realm of Fire) is naturally as hostile as it gets to life. Most of the narrative of AoS deals with the fact of how the races addapt to their environment. Natural adapters to Aqsy are, for instance, the Fyreslayers (as descendantes of Grimnir, God of Fire). In the Fyreslayers Legends BL book, there is a description of a Lodge that lived in an archipelago in a sea of lava. The islands could not be connected between them, because lava would destroy the bridges at certain points. So they designed a system of ritual bridge building at the hours they knew the bridges could be walked. Other lodges lived underground because of the nature of Aqsy, and so on.
You will find something similar on each realm: Ulgu is all about fogs and mists which are deadly, so the people who know how to deal and use this eh vision problem, adapt and survive and flourish (ie: Shadowkin and its allies); Ghur is full of beasts and orcs, so you have to fight to survive, etc.
The only human civilization friendly realm seems to be Azyr. Even Ghyran is hard: too much life is bad for humans, we know that, and right now it is quite rotten as well.

3) There are elves and many groups as a matter of fact. You have several older groups, who live on Azyr. They are not divided along the HE-DE-WE WHFB division, although WE are pretty much all together as Wanderers, formerer allies of Alarielle and the Sylvaneth who left Ghyran. HE-DE division is built around DE being former elves of Ulgu who fled to Azyr. And you still have a Khaine worshiper group.
The newer elves have not been revealed but we have some glances at them. We know the name of the Ulgu Elves: the Shadowkin. We also know that there is (or has to be) a Light Elf group under Tyrion and Teclis, but it is so far the most secretive newer faction. And you have the Sylvaneth who do have a half elf-half treekin infantry.

MagicAngle
06-06-2016, 16:56
In answer to question 1)

The realms were described early on as "infinite" in a flyer for a Warhammer World tournament, here: http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/03/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms/ (see the entry for Ghyran)

AFAIK there has been no other reference to them as "infinite", though, which points to this being the embellishment of whoever wrote that flyer and not the official stance on the extent of the realms. In all likelihood, there is no official stance on the infiniteness or otherwise of the realms.

Spiney Norman
06-06-2016, 17:14
Hey folks.

I'm someone who has been one of the vehement critics of Age of Sigmar. However, I liked Silver Tower and I've promised to give the game a chance with the release of points. I'm not entirely unreasonable. I've therefore bought the first book (Mighty Battles in An Age of Unending War) and am reading through it. However I've often struggled to get into this setting, despite finding some aspects that I like recently.

Can anyone answer a few questions for me? I don't want to put this into the background section as it's partly to do with how the books are presented and also a smatttering of queries.

1) I was under the impression that the 8 Mortal Realms were unlimited in size. I didn't like this. However, from what I've read, that doesn't seem to be the case. Am I right in saying that all eight are ill-defined, but not infinite? It talks about there being 9 regions in the Realm of Shadows, the Waaagh going from 'one edge of the realms to the other', Nagash 'losing the surface of the realm of death'. This makes me think that there actually is a limit to the size of the setting? If so, good.

I would any no, they don't seem to actually be infinite, but they do seem to be extremely large, and from the point of view of the unfolding story, mostly unexplored.


2) The maps don't appear to be very hospitable to life. For example, I'm not sure how anyone could survive on the Brimstone Penninsula as shown in the above mentioned book or why the Bloodbound bothered to set up a fortress on Obsidia Isle in the Seraphon book. I don't understand the strategic relevance of that island, as it is in a sea of lava and appears to have nothing BUT a fortress of cannibals on it. It's a barren rock.

Are the maps highly abstract? Has Chaos made the realms this way, with rivers of fire rather than fishable rivers? When the Stormcast take a region, do people move in behind them and colonise as the realm becomes calmer?

I think it depends which realm you are talking about, the realm of fire does seem rather inhospitable, but the realm of life is quite different. Iirc the Duardin fyreslayers live in the realm of fire so it must be habitable in places, have the means of growing food etc. The brimstone peninsula is a fairly bad example I think, since it's effectively been a warzone, subjugated by the followers of Khorne for years uncounted, that has to take its toll on the environment.


3) Are there or are there not Aelfs? I've heard people say some High, Dark and Wood Elves remain, but also that Tyrion, Teclis, Alarielle and Malekith can't find them? I'd love an explanation as I am a little confused myself.

I'll leave it there for now, but would appreciate any answers from people with the time. :)

Again we don't know yet, a lot of the mortal realms still remains unexplored by the storyline protagonists, there clearly are Aelfs, we've seen some artwork leaked regarding the direction of the wood elves (now more wood than elves) and the mist weaver and shard from the silver tower box have given us a clue what the other Aelfs might look like.

Shifte
06-06-2016, 17:32
I would any no, they don't seem to actually be infinite, but they do seem to be extremely large, and from the point of view of the unfolding story, mostly unexplored.



I think it depends which realm you are talking about, the realm of fire does seem rather inhospitable, but the realm of life is quite different. Iirc the Duardin fyreslayers live in the realm of fire so it must be habitable in places, have the means of growing food etc. The brimstone peninsula is a fairly bad example I think, since it's effectively been a warzone, subjugated by the followers of Khorne for years uncounted, that has to take its toll on the environment.



Again we don't know yet, a lot of the mortal realms still remains unexplored by the storyline protagonists, there clearly are Aelfs, we've seen some artwork leaked regarding the direction of the wood elves (now more wood than elves) and the mist weaver and shard from the silver tower box have given us a clue what the other Aelfs might look like.

Well, the lore for pre Age of Chaos says all the realms had multiple 'Kingdoms'. It makes me imagine the Realm of Death having areas like Sylvania (with lords/kings/peasants/draculas), the realm of Fire having searing jungles and baking deserts, etc. There is some art of the Realm of Metal that has grassy plains, icy tundra, forest and desert along the 'Silverway'. Indeed, in the Brimstone Penninsula there is a mountain range (infested by Skaven) called 'Duardinia'.

I like the idea that the realms are being made 'worse' by Chaos and that you could actually get some less extreme zones. Maybe when there is peace, the Incarnates have that sort of effect?

Wishing
06-06-2016, 18:02
When it comes to questions like "how do people in the fire realm grow food?", I fall back on the fact that this is a high magic high fantasy world.

They can, in other words, in principle, just magic food. Either just create it, or teleport it in from elsewhere.

I don't know if this goes against anything that's written, but that's my own personal way of resolving issues of "but this makes no sense!"

Andnore
06-06-2016, 18:47
When it comes to questions like "how do people in the fire realm grow food?", I fall back on the fact that this is a high magic high fantasy world.

They can, in other words, in principle, just magic food. Either just create it, or teleport it in from elsewhere.

I don't know if this goes against anything that's written, but that's my own personal way of resolving issues of "but this makes no sense!"

Generally, having to resort to "A wizard did it!" to explain something in a setting is a sign of bad writing.

Shifte
06-06-2016, 19:15
When it comes to questions like "how do people in the fire realm grow food?", I fall back on the fact that this is a high magic high fantasy world.

They can, in other words, in principle, just magic food. Either just create it, or teleport it in from elsewhere.

I don't know if this goes against anything that's written, but that's my own personal way of resolving issues of "but this makes no sense!"

High Fantasy isn't an excuse for poor writing or a lack of explanation. A High Fantasy solution to 'how do people live in the fire realm?' is, f.ex., "Well they eat magma apples which grow in lava and contain all the nutrients you need to survive!" Or, my preference, "the fire realm is not ENTIRELY volcanoes and infernos. Some of it is just really warm, but has water and animals and resources. With some weird overly fiery landmarks."

A High Fantasy solution is not "Who cares?"

StygianBeach
06-06-2016, 19:54
High Fantasy isn't an excuse for poor writing or a lack of explanation. A High Fantasy solution to 'how do people live in the fire realm?' is, f.ex., "Well they eat magma apples which grow in lava and contain all the nutrients you need to survive!" Or, my preference, "the fire realm is not ENTIRELY volcanoes and infernos. Some of it is just really warm, but has water and animals and resources. With some weird overly fiery landmarks."

A High Fantasy solution is not "Who cares?"

I agree, but if politicians can apply a similar solution to our own real world environmental problems (such as the bees dying out) then is it really a surprise this is not a big issue for many people.

A Magma world is possible for Dwarves, but I imagine they would be sickly and asthmatic and require Undead servants to get to that main agriculture work done. Make their main agricultural product some sort of tree potato which also has massive air/water filtering qualities and then they could be buff and healthy. Also, as above they would need fresh water.

CrystalSphere
06-06-2016, 21:22
If you want logic, stay away from AoS - you have been warned. WHFB had plenty of silly stuff already, but it would look low fantasy compared to AoS.

Ben
06-06-2016, 23:39
The realms are huge but not infinite, because the space station Age of Sigmar takes place on does go round an entire star.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fcoc-vs-battles/images/d/d0/Age_Of_Sigmar_Map.png/revision/latest?cb=20150908200612

They don't seem to really address that they're all on a space station at any point. Do they go outside?

StygianBeach
06-06-2016, 23:51
The realms are huge but not infinite, because the space station Age of Sigmar takes place on does go round and entire star.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fcoc-vs-battles/images/d/d0/Age_Of_Sigmar_Map.png/revision/latest?cb=20150908200612

They don't seem to really address that they're all on a space station at any point. Do they go outside?

Is it like a Ring World?

Shifte
07-06-2016, 00:45
Is it like a Ring World?

The orange planet is, from what I can tell, the remains of the Old World 'Mallus'. The space station is Sigmar's fortress.

The bearded one
07-06-2016, 01:50
From what I understand the space station/fortress surrounds the core that remains of the old world, while the new world(s) are down below.


If you want logic, stay away from AoS - you have been warned. WHFB had plenty of silly stuff already, but it would look low fantasy compared to AoS.

I find the difference in the degree of implausibility/'silliness' kinda funny.

In WHFB we wondered about the sustainability of Naggaroth because of elves' rampant paranoia, and how the hordes of chaos could sustain their numbers in such inhospitable terrain (the norscan tribes are relatively plausible - even if life's a bit harsh - but growing food and increasing a population and stuff like that was always odd to imagine happening in the wastes), and my personal favorite boring little query is Empire demographics due to the way beastmen and greenskin raids from the forests and the surrounding mountains supress the potential for full exploitation of the land beyond city walls.

In AoS we wonder whether it's physically possible to actually grow any food in most of the realms at all.

SuperHappyTime
07-06-2016, 04:22
I feel like you guys are insulting your own intelligence with this attack on AoS. Look, I find the setting as dull and boring as you do, but its not the setting. Tatooine and Hoth were entire planets of desert and/or ice. Jack Bauer starts the first season of 24 at 12:00AM and never tires after an entire day without a meal, poop, or even a nap. Horror characters have yet to ever make a good decision and get out of that house. Cinema Sins has made an entire series out of pointing out setting flaws. Look, the Realm of Fire isn't entirely made of Fire, Realm of Metal out of Metal... etc. So let's stop fooling ourselves, we don't believe that to be the case at all.


Generally, having to resort to "A wizard did it!" to explain something in a setting is a sign of bad writing.

"A wizard did it!" is lazy, but it's a legitimate reason.

The problems with AoS are:
a) We've asked the question in the first place, which indicates that the story isn't good enough to hold our attention.
b) When we think the question there isn't a definitive answer we can find from story sources, or there is, but nobody cares enough about the story to answer the question.

Wishing
07-06-2016, 07:18
A High Fantasy solution is not "Who cares?"

True, but I also think that "they can create food with magic" is different from "who cares?"

I think the idea that fantasy worlds should have some sort of printed explanations of their food production and distribution systems to be engaging is a good one though. The same probably goes for economy and other boring but important things.

Ben
07-06-2016, 07:20
The orange planet is, from what I can tell, the remains of the Old World 'Mallus'. The space station is Sigmar's fortress.

I thought the pointy tower was Sigmars fortress, the one with the star above it.

If the whole thing is Sigmar's fortress and the Infinite Realms are somewhere else, then it makes sort of sense. Lizardmen have space ships and could travel between them, but given that the background has fixed point to fixed point teleporters, Sigmar tells Scotty to turn them off and Chaos can't reach him on the space station. But Sigmar has other transporter technology and can beam down Sigmarines at any point. Which is basically the plot of the game so far, Sigmar beaming down Sigmarines to attack the peaceful skull farmers of the Blood Plains, next to Bloodton on sea, in Bloodshire.

I can't believe I'm actually thinking about this crap.

Wishing
07-06-2016, 07:23
Generally, having to resort to "A wizard did it!" to explain something in a setting is a sign of bad writing.

Sure, but "I find the seeming lack of plausible real-world agriculture in this world, so that magic has to be employed to explain how people eat, to signify bad writing" is also different from "This makes no sense!" If magic simply makes no sense, then we should stay away from fantasy and sci-fi in general.

And I know people who feel that fantastical elements to a story, period, is a sign of bad writing.

HammerofThunor
07-06-2016, 08:08
@Ben, then don't think about about. You've made it very clear you don't like it so leave it alone and don't worry about it. Just focus on whatever it is you do like (i.e. not AoS).

As for the realms, I'm surprised how little imagination some people seem to have considering where we are. Even on our world we have pyrophytes (plants which resist or benefit from fire). Many of these require fire to grow and spread. On top of that, the source of our energy is the sun, and plants are the primary mechanism to convert that energy into something we can use. But the Realms are powered by the winds of magic, so there could easily be forna that can run on this energy (and be hunted for food). Salamanders that must bathe in lava to store energy.

edit: the lack of imagination comment wasn't meant as an insult. More that people seem to want our world with some 'minor' changes, which is fine. Similar to sci-fi, which other world being ours with two moons or whatever and the aliens basically look like us. Rather than exploring the effectively infinite ways life could take hold in very different environments to ours.

Andnore
07-06-2016, 09:14
@Ben, then don't think about about. You've made it very clear you don't like it so leave it alone and don't worry about it. Just focus on whatever it is you do like (i.e. not AoS).

As for the realms, I'm surprised how little imagination some people seem to have considering where we are. Even on our world we have pyrophytes (plants which resist or benefit from fire). Many of these require fire to grow and spread. On top of that, the source of our energy is the sun, and plants are the primary mechanism to convert that energy into something we can use. But the Realms are powered by the winds of magic, so there could easily be forna that can run on this energy (and be hunted for food). Salamanders that must bathe in lava to store energy.

edit: the lack of imagination comment wasn't meant as an insult. More that people seem to want our world with some 'minor' changes, which is fine. Similar to sci-fi, which other world being ours with two moons or whatever and the aliens basically look like us. Rather than exploring the effectively infinite ways life could take hold in very different environments to ours.

I understand where you're coming from, it's just that GWs new setting doesn't tell us anything about that. What are these pyrophytes called? What do the denizens of the Mortal Realms do with them? What are the beasts in the ocean or on the plains called? Do they have cattle, or do they just hunt wild game? Why do I need to fill all of this in myself when I'm being charged money for the fluff?

Allow me to quote MtG's Planeswalker's Guide to Alara, on the Shard of Jund:

"For humans, relationships are fleeting, and the death rate extremely high. A person over thirty is considered old and anyone who makes it to fifty is ancient. [...]The tukatongue tree is the primary food staple for humans, and a tribe without access [...] struggles for survival. Growing on high plateaus, the tree's supple wood and tough bark helps it survive fierce winds and a marauding dragon's fiery breath. The trees roots can be ground into a sticky paste for an unappealing, but reliable, food source. [...] Humans live in temporary shelters made from tuka frames and covered in lizard skin [...] From a distance these round huts look like the backs of giant turtles."

Something as basic as that, to help establish what life in the Mortal Realms is like, is something GW couldn't provide? And that's why I complain, because AoS' fluff feels so... half assed.

blackcherry
07-06-2016, 11:29
Suspension of disbelief is a very tricky thing.

The Old World: a world influenced by magic, which has two moons. One which is evil. Where fantasy creatures run amok. Where most of the factions (including the Empire) tend to live in places where actually venturing anywhere not under armed guard is lethal because even the tree want to kill you. Where we just hand wave a good number of the factions living and surviving (Chaos, High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarves) because of magic.

AoS: Hmmm, all this magical stuff seems a bit unbelievable.

Not poking fun at anyone specifically, I just find it a bit humorous how fragile SoD is for some people :p

But it does show something - you give people a world that, if they want, they can forget elements that don't fit into their own personal view of things (The WFB world) and they are fine and can fudge details. Blatant High Fantasy is a lot harder to sell.

ScruffMan
07-06-2016, 11:56
Gav's book Warbeasts has a bit more about a society struggling to survive and how they feed themselves etc. It doesn't go into great detail and would probably be logistically impossible if looked at with great scrutiny but it does go there.

He also talks a little about how many Chaos tribes are just regular humans who turned to Chaos out of desperation, puts women and children in (needed!) and show an even more human side to the Stormcast (this had been done already but he really drives it home). A good book all in all for those who'd like a little more depth.

Denny
07-06-2016, 11:56
Something as basic as that, to help establish what life in the Mortal Realms is like, is something GW couldn't provide? And that's why I complain, because AoS' fluff feels so... half assed.

I personally think more supplements should focus on sanitation. I want to know where sewers are built, where the waste runs off, whether demonic poop can be used as compost, what materials are suitable for lavatory paper, the whole shebang.

I cannot understand why GW insists on instead releasing fluff books focusing on playable factions without explaining their toilet facilities. How is anyone supposed to play a game with the Flesh Eaters Courts without knowing where all that flesh ends up? :shifty:

ik0ner
07-06-2016, 12:32
I find it humorous how some feel the need to belittle others with their childish reductio ad absurdum arguments, this is not meant as an insult and no offence to anyone. I'm really not trying to poke fun of you. Keep up the good work.

WarbossKurgan
07-06-2016, 16:12
From the AoS release White Dwarf:

"The Mortal Realms span reality, each impossibly vast and made of the concentrated essence of magic. From this springs untold vistas of the incredible and unbelievable."
"Vast to the point of impossibility, spectacular in their wonder and horror, the great realms spread out across all reality and into the fractured hinterlands beyond."
"Azyr and the Mortal Realms are formed from the concentrated essence of magic unbound. Each is a universe unto itself, incalculably vast and more fantastical than any mortal could bear to imagine. Each seethes with – and is formed from – those sorcerous energies that the learned men of the world-that-was once knew as the Winds of Magic."
"So it is with Ulgu, Ghyran and all the rest, each realm a facet of an ensorcelled whole, and each so huge as to defy imagination. Even were a mortal man to devote his every waking moment to one realm’s exploration, his quest would unveil but a fraction of its glory and terror before old age ushered him into his grave. Add to this that each realm is linked to the others via mystical portals known as Realmgates, and the sheer enormity of these new horizons would drive even the most learned of scholars insane."

~~~

Josh Reynolds said on AskFM:
“It's not all weird funky magic terrain...some of it is fairly normal. There are or could be variations on all of them [civilizations resembling Cathay, Ind, Albion, Ancient Nehekara, Nippon, Estalia and Tilea] in every realm.

Each realm has jungles, deserts, forests, oceans and meadows just like the old world (Everchosen book scenario 3 I think shows it best) each realm has a higher degree of that particular magic. Forests in the realm of metal are still made of leaves and wood, but have a bit more of a copper tint to the wood, or more iron in the leaves than normal. Some areas will be beaches of crushed silver. So food can be grown anywhere, wood felled anywhere and minerals mined anywhere. Obviously you could say that the realm of life could have the best quality wood for cabinets and tables, but wood from the realm of beasts is far larger and better for making ships out of one piece!

On the side of 'normal' people, there are ordinary human settlements across the realms who have survived the depredations of chaos. There is enough space for pockets of cities and civilisations to have remained largely untouched by war. Economy in those places will be established but finished from the lack of trade from the realms. As the Realmgate wars see settlers coming back to the realms, cities and towns will grow and a new economy will arrive. Most likely with Azyrheim being the Capital city with luxuries being their main export."

~~~

The maps are of specific area where the action is taking place - they (in my opinion at least) are not representative of the whole of each realm featured. I think they are to emphasise the "anything can happen" scope of the setting.

Shifte
07-06-2016, 17:04
I personally think more supplements should focus on sanitation. I want to know where sewers are built, where the waste runs off, whether demonic poop can be used as compost, what materials are suitable for lavatory paper, the whole shebang.

I cannot understand why GW insists on instead releasing fluff books focusing on playable factions without explaining their toilet facilities. How is anyone supposed to play a game with the Flesh Eaters Courts without knowing where all that flesh ends up? :shifty:

But that is absolutely not comparable to asking for a hospitable landscape? You silly Billy, you.

Captain Marius
07-06-2016, 18:16
I find it interesting that aos seems to be a narrative lacking in background, where for years the old world was a background lacking an ongoing narrative. Hopefully as the mortal realms grow theyll be fleshed out a lot more - ill check out gavs book, thanks for the recommend!

Wishing
07-06-2016, 18:18
Something as basic as that, to help establish what life in the Mortal Realms is like, is something GW couldn't provide?

They probably could if they had chosen to, but they chose not to. They chose to focus on the magic, wonderous and war-related, not the basic infrastructure, agriculture, and ordinary life things. Probably because they didn't intend for this setting to be used as the setting of a role-playing game, but just as something to paint in the background of pictures of guys with big axes and hammers.

I get the criticism, honestly. I mean, they do write novels set in the setting, after all. I get that fans might desire some descriptions of what it might be like to be a person who actually has to deal with real life in the fantasy world. Not just people who teleport around and fight baddies all round. So that you can feel a bit more engaged with the setting as if it was a real place.

I guess I personally don't mind because I'm not the type of person to sit down and wonder about these things. I see fantasy worlds like this similar to what I see in the pictures on Magic cards. They're just pretty pictures and fancy names. I don't need to know how the farmers in the background live and what kind of food they eat. Just the picture is enough to inspire me to buy, convert and paint a pretty miniature. Which I feel like is what it is all about.

Denny
07-06-2016, 18:58
But that is absolutely not comparable to asking for a hospitable landscape? You silly Billy, you.

Nothing silly about sanitation.

Didn't the Black Death wipe out 60% of Europe's population? And a big part of that was down to the poor sanitation. Or look at Cholera outbreaks, or typhoid, or the famous Life of Brian sketch. Sanitation also relates to the use of fertiliser, and I think human waste has been used in the production of black powder. Sanitation is incredibly important for any society that has moved beyond hunter gathering. Quickest way to make a landscape inhospitable is not cleaning up the poop.

Now if want to argue that a Fantasy wargame has better things to focus on than who cleans up excrement then I'll accept that POV, but don't think that it's any less important for a civilisation than trade or even agriculture.

The bearded one
07-06-2016, 20:07
Well, most fantasy settings tend to base their races' civilizations on relatively recognisable historical archetypes (often "generic medieval"), which by its very nature fills in some of the blanks somewhat automatically by allowing us to imagine what their economy, architecture, weaponry, trade, sanitation etc. is like. The Empire is a late medieval archetype based on 15-16th'ish Germany, with lots of forests and grasslands. So they probably farm grain and stuff. Ulthuan, especially the inner kingdoms, are a very pleasant environment, and I'm given the impression of an agricultural landscape like that in antiquity, with spread out villages and "villas". Dwarf civilisation is less conventional, but the lore details how they herd mountain goats, farm pastures on the mountainsides, fish underground rivers, and trade with humans for the required hops and barley to make ale.

AoS's setting does not appear to have remotely normal civilisations, or remotely normal landscapes (volcano peninsulas, seas of lava, clockwork animals, shadowrealms strewn with riddles and puzzleboxes), so I'm having legitimate difficulty to immerse myself in the setting when I have to stretch my disbelief for the setting's internal logic very far to answer simple questions like 'how do they produce food'




By the by, we know that imperial cities have sewer systems. That's one of the skaven points of entry after all. Take Gotrek & Felix Skavenslayer, for example.

Wishing
07-06-2016, 23:05
Well, most fantasy settings tend to base their races' civilizations on relatively recognisable historical archetypes (often "generic medieval"), which by its very nature fills in some of the blanks somewhat automatically by allowing us to imagine what their economy, architecture, weaponry, trade, sanitation etc. is like. [...] AoS's setting does not appear to have remotely normal civilisations, or remotely normal landscapes (volcano peninsulas, seas of lava, clockwork animals, shadowrealms strewn with riddles and puzzleboxes), so I'm having legitimate difficulty to immerse myself in the setting ...

That is the ultimate point here, and it's hard to disagree with the first part. AoS's setting does indeed, to casual observers like us, seem like a completely alien fantasy setting not based on recognisable historical inspiration. And they don't go to any lengths to explain how they in this alien fantasy setting produce food. So if we wish to know this, all we can do is guess.

I can see how some people are put off from immersion in the setting because of this lack of relevant details about real-life stuff. What I mostly wonder, I guess, is why this immersion is needed to enjoy a fantasy miniatures game? When you sit down and paint a griffon model, do you think about how the food that was theoretically used to feed this imaginary griffon was grown? Maybe I'm not a very immersive person, at least in the detailed sense.

StygianBeach
07-06-2016, 23:13
Nothing silly about sanitation.

Didn't the Black Death wipe out 60% of Europe's population? And a big part of that was down to the poor sanitation. Or look at Cholera outbreaks, or typhoid, or the famous Life of Brian sketch. Sanitation also relates to the use of fertiliser, and I think human waste has been used in the production of black powder. Sanitation is incredibly important for any society that has moved beyond hunter gathering. Quickest way to make a landscape inhospitable is not cleaning up the poop.

Now if want to argue that a Fantasy wargame has better things to focus on than who cleans up excrement then I'll accept that POV, but don't think that it's any less important for a civilisation than trade or even agriculture.

Funny timing, but this just appeared in my youtube feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ha5Rs2r4F0

ScruffMan
07-06-2016, 23:23
Well, most fantasy settings tend to base their races' civilizations on relatively recognisable historical archetypes (often "generic medieval"), which by its very nature fills in some of the blanks somewhat automatically by allowing us to imagine what their economy, architecture, weaponry, trade, sanitation etc. is like. The Empire is a late medieval archetype based on 15-16th'ish Germany, with lots of forests and grasslands. So they probably farm grain and stuff. Ulthuan, especially the inner kingdoms, are a very pleasant environment, and I'm given the impression of an agricultural landscape like that in antiquity, with spread out villages and "villas". Dwarf civilisation is less conventional, but the lore details how they herd mountain goats, farm pastures on the mountainsides, fish underground rivers, and trade with humans for the required hops and barley to make ale.

AoS's setting does not appear to have remotely normal civilisations, or remotely normal landscapes (volcano peninsulas, seas of lava, clockwork animals, shadowrealms strewn with riddles and puzzleboxes), so I'm having legitimate difficulty to immerse myself in the setting when I have to stretch my disbelief for the setting's internal logic very far to answer simple questions like 'how do they produce food'




By the by, we know that imperial cities have sewer systems. That's one of the skaven points of entry after all. Take Gotrek & Felix Skavenslayer, for example.


I don't know about that, put any of the Old World civilisations under any scrutiny and they fall apart too. Ulthuan itself was "magic did it". The Empire somehow had farms to feed huge populations despite one being 99% forest and constantly raided, Brettonia worked in a feudal way but its population would have been so small and feeble compared to its competitors that it would have been swept over. The Dwarfs, I don't know what the hell they live off other than ale and am not sure where all farm land to make the vast quantities they drink are. That's without touching the bad factions.

I'm not slagging the old world off, it worked. It worked cos none of that stuff really matters. It worked better than AoS does currently in terms of detailed fluff. It sure as hell didn't make sense though.


As for AoS not having normal civs and what have you, that's simply not the case.

The bearded one
07-06-2016, 23:25
That is the ultimate point here, and it's hard to disagree with the first part. AoS's setting does indeed, to casual observers like us, seem like a completely alien fantasy setting not based on recognisable historical inspiration. And they don't go to any lengths to explain how they in this alien fantasy setting produce food. So if we wish to know this, all we can do is guess.

I can see how some people are put off from immersion in the setting because of this lack of relevant details about real-life stuff. What I mostly wonder, I guess, is why this immersion is needed to enjoy a fantasy miniatures game? When you sit down and paint a griffon model, do you think about how the food that was theoretically used to feed this imaginary griffon was grown? Maybe I'm not a very immersive person, at least in the detailed sense.

Well, I don't feel like it would really stop me from enjoying hobbying or playing the game, but it most assuredly stops me from immersing myself into the setting. While the content of the setting may aid in enjoyment of hobbying/gaming, I don't think it's an absolute necessity to do so, and I view the hobby side to be a seperate activity from enjoying the setting as a piece of fiction (which means I may still be hobbying, but I have no real interest in buying books and lore for AoS).

Actually at this point I'm basically still sticking to warhammer fantasy lore for my armies.


I don't know about that, put any of the Old World civilisations under any scrutiny and they fall apart too. Ulthuan itself was "magic did it". The Empire somehow had farms to feed huge populations despite one being 99% forest and constantly raided, Brettonia worked in a feudal way but its population would have been so small and feeble compared to its competitors that it would have been swept over. The Dwarfs, I don't know what the hell they live off other than ale and am not sure where all farm land to make the vast quantities they drink are. That's without touching the bad factions.

I'm not slagging the old world off, it worked. It worked cos none of that stuff really matters. It worked better than AoS does currently in terms of detailed fluff. It sure as hell didn't make sense though.


As for AoS not having normal civs and what have you, that's simply not the case.

I'm still ranking the warhammer world infinitely higher on the 'relative plausability' scale. I study history, and I find the warhammer setting's plotholes always fascinating to ponder in that regard, and I find it fun to try and think of small changes to add to the plausibility, but I find that many of them are more in the realm of 'this doesn't really work it, you need to tweak it', rather than 'this is nonsense'.

WHFB may have magic - it's a fantasy setting after all - but there's a certain degree of internal consistency to it, and we know the rough workings of magic (for reference from what I understand even though Harry Potter is 7 books about a wizard school, it's never really explained how magic actually works there).

If I may illustrate the core of my argument, there's a fairly substantial gap between the following:
1)"the demographics of this nation don't seem to match up because of the poor exploitation and safety of the available countryside even though medieval cities only kept up their population growth by immigration from the countryside due to the mortality rate in these cities overtaking the birthrate"
2) "How can they grow food??"


Once AoS starts building up some meat on its bones, I may be into it, but as of now it doesn't interest me all that much as a piece of fiction. Even though everyone's been railing against the sigmarines I'm quite okay with the armies' aesthetics.

CrystalSphere
07-06-2016, 23:59
The WHF roleplay books (im thinking 2nd edition) made a good job at making the setting more down to earth and believable, sort of similar to ASOIF. The armybooks were always over the top, specialy in 8th edition, but 6th-7th armybooks/rulebooks for example contained background pieces that werent about battles - one good example is the first ogre book: it has loads of pages writing about how ogres live, how they got there, whats the physical anatomy of an ogre, what are their society like, etc. You can tell that a lot of work was done to introduce this new ogre faction into the setting, so that it would mesh with the existing world.

None of that is in AoS except: "well this realm is called Aqshy, and is made of magic fire. Here live the fire not-dwarfs, the fire monsters and other fire-stuff you can imagine. Aqshy makes for a great setting for epic battles and is a great project for a gaming table, buy now the "Realm of battle - Aqshy" gameboard! Only while stock last."

GreyhawkGuardian
08-06-2016, 03:53
I can see how some people are put off from immersion in the setting because of this lack of relevant details about real-life stuff. What I mostly wonder, I guess, is why this immersion is needed to enjoy a fantasy miniatures game? When you sit down and paint a griffon model, do you think about how the food that was theoretically used to feed this imaginary griffon was grown?

I just wanted to comment on this bit.

For me, that immersion is 100% needed. Without that immersion, that appearance that the world could be "real" I can't get invested in the game I'm playing, be that mini game, role playing game or video game. It's doubly important with a mini-game though. The investment in painting/modeling time and the costs associated with it kind of demand some manner of connection so that you'll stick with it long term.

Now, what that connection is defiantly varies from person to person. Someone could be a modeling/painting guy. Or a gameplay guy. I just happen to be a story/setting guy.

And that's where Age of Sigmar keeps falling down for me. It's over the top nature has highlighted and magnified some of the issues that existed in latter era Warhammer Fantasy. There's just nothing I can sink my teeth into.

ScruffMan
08-06-2016, 12:05
Well, I don't feel like it would really stop me from enjoying hobbying or playing the game, but it most assuredly stops me from immersing myself into the setting. While the content of the setting may aid in enjoyment of hobbying/gaming, I don't think it's an absolute necessity to do so, and I view the hobby side to be a seperate activity from enjoying the setting as a piece of fiction (which means I may still be hobbying, but I have no real interest in buying books and lore for AoS).

Actually at this point I'm basically still sticking to warhammer fantasy lore for my armies.



I'm still ranking the warhammer world infinitely higher on the 'relative plausability' scale. I study history, and I find the warhammer setting's plotholes always fascinating to ponder in that regard, and I find it fun to try and think of small changes to add to the plausibility, but I find that many of them are more in the realm of 'this doesn't really work it, you need to tweak it', rather than 'this is nonsense'.

WHFB may have magic - it's a fantasy setting after all - but there's a certain degree of internal consistency to it, and we know the rough workings of magic (for reference from what I understand even though Harry Potter is 7 books about a wizard school, it's never really explained how magic actually works there).

If I may illustrate the core of my argument, there's a fairly substantial gap between the following:
1)"the demographics of this nation don't seem to match up because of the poor exploitation and safety of the available countryside even though medieval cities only kept up their population growth by immigration from the countryside due to the mortality rate in these cities overtaking the birthrate"
2) "How can they grow food??"


Once AoS starts building up some meat on its bones, I may be into it, but as of now it doesn't interest me all that much as a piece of fiction. Even though everyone's been railing against the sigmarines I'm quite okay with the armies' aesthetics.

I'm a history graduate too and I do actually agree with you on the whole, I wish AoS would have more of that stuff and I suspect we will get some more detail though not as much as we got before. I've kind of made my peace that I'll have to get that sort of thing from other fantasy worlds and systems.

Btw the only one that really bugged me was Naggaroth, that was almost AoSesque in its absolute silliness. From the 4th edition army book onwards. I loved the faction, these extremely arrogant, "perfect" beings giving into that arrogance and supremacy, but always wished GW had had the discipline to tone them down a little, give them some nuance.

I haven't really read 40k fluff since before the Dark Eldar were introduced but it's something I think they managed better with them?

KieranHayns
08-06-2016, 12:49
The setting has not had a chance to build itself up yet. The old world had the benefit of no baggage and being something completely new. GW could say "Here is a world. There are elves, dwarfs, humans, monsters. Some of these guys worship dark gods and they all like to fight alot" and we would be more than happy to nod our heads and content to wait as new cities pop up and new races have their history filled out and given details. It took a long time for the old world to have the level to detail that it did.

The problem with AOS isn’t the setting itself its the simply a combination of people not wanting their old models to become irrelevant and the need to fill the void left by the old world by stamping our feet and saying "We want a comprehensive and exciting setting NOW!"

The setting will get better. If GW have a shred of sense we will start to see novels and army development for the "Normal" people so that we can immerse ourselves a little more.

Its like the setting of the mortal realm is a newborn. Instead of letting it grow we have forced it grow and as a result it is becoming twisted, misshapen and dysfunctional.

I would like to point out that i make no excuses for the current style of the setting. That’s all down to opinion.

But if the Mortal realms do have an end (And i think they do) it may take some time before all the corners of them map are filled in. WHFB was great for me not because of the theme because it was so rich with detail that made the stories that much more interesting. AOS isn’t .Yet

eron12
08-06-2016, 14:19
The setting will get better. If GW have a shred of sense we will start to see novels and army development for the "Normal" people so we can immerse ourselves a little more.

People have been saying this for over a year, but has anything changed?

Andnore
08-06-2016, 14:22
The setting has not had a chance to build itself up yet. The old world had the benefit of no baggage and being something completely new. GW could say "Here is a world. There are elves, dwarfs, humans, monsters. Some of these guys worship dark gods and they all like to fight alot" and we would be more than happy to nod our heads and content to wait as new cities pop up and new races have their history filled out and given details. It took a long time for the old world to have the level to detail that it did.

The problem with AOS isn’t the setting itself its the simply a combination of people not wanting their old models to become irrelevant and the need to fill the void left by the old world by stamping our feet and saying "We want a comprehensive and exciting setting NOW!"

The setting will get better. If GW have a shred of sense we will start to see novels and army development for the "Normal" people so that we can immerse ourselves a little more.

Its like the setting of the mortal realm is a newborn. Instead of letting it grow we have forced it grow and as a result it is becoming twisted, misshapen and dysfunctional.

I would like to point out that i make no excuses for the current style of the setting. That’s all down to opinion.

But if the Mortal realms do have an end (And i think they do) it may take some time before all the corners of them map are filled in. WHFB was great for me not because of the theme because it was so rich with detail that made the stories that much more interesting. AOS isn’t .Yet

Now, obviously YMMW, but AoS is a year old, and has released over a dozen books (not counting Black Library), and they still haven't fixed this issue. I'm sorry, but with that time, and GW's resources, claiming that the setting is still new rings hollow to me. Again, that MtG stuff I quoted earlier? That was one setting that we spent a single year with, and yet it did a better job than AoS in explaining how it worked.

Saying AoS' fluff sucks because our demands are unreasonable is just insulting, especially when compared to other, similar companies.

Soulsmith
08-06-2016, 16:47
Was anyone here actually playing when WHF released? I mean 1st edition. What state was the old world in then? I know they've developed hugely as a company but come on, everyone needs time to find their feet. I for one welcome the possibility to really make my fluff and army my own, instead of shoehorning them into a fluff with little room for such.

Folomo
08-06-2016, 17:12
I think a more recent comparison is more relevant than going into the 198Xs. We are in the 201X after all.

Anyone has bought recently a 1s edition of any wargame? Did the wargame had a mostly established setting?

Andnore
08-06-2016, 17:29
I think a more recent comparison is more relevant than going into the 198Xs. We are in the 201X after all.

Anyone has bought recently a 1s edition of any wargame? Did the wargame had a mostly established setting?

Hmmm... I'd like to throw up Infinity as an example. Plenty of fluff to get you involved with the setting in the first edition of the game.

Choombatta
08-06-2016, 17:36
Was anyone here actually playing when WHF released? I mean 1st edition. What state was the old world in then? I know they've developed hugely as a company but come on, everyone needs time to find their feet. I for one welcome the possibility to really make my fluff and army my own, instead of shoehorning them into a fluff with little room for such.

1st and 2nd edition did not have much in the way of in-depth fluff, and some of what they did have changed drastically between editions.
It was not until the release of WHFRP that the settings started to become more detailed (years later, not a single year).
I have brought up before, that in the early editions of WFB, the Slaan were devolved Old Ones, lithe and agile, who commanded an army of nothing but lobotomized slaves.
Then, suddenly, Slaan were the creations of the Old Ones, bloated and slow moving, who commanded an army full of saurian beasts.

I do not recall a single complaint about such a drastic change in setting in those early editions.
Generational maybe?

ScruffMan
08-06-2016, 17:59
1st and 2nd edition did not have much in the way of in-depth fluff, and some of what they did have changed drastically between editions.
It was not until the release of WHFRP that the settings started to become more detailed (years later, not a single year).
I have brought up before, that in the early editions of WFB, the Slaan were devolved Old Ones, lithe and agile, who commanded an army of nothing but lobotomized slaves.
Then, suddenly, Slaan were the creations of the Old Ones, bloated and slow moving, who commanded an army full of saurian beasts.

I do not recall a single complaint about such a drastic change in setting in those early editions.
Generational maybe?

That is the case but remember that slann were "squatted" for the entirety of fourth and came back as Lizardmen at the beginning of fifth. There was a whole edition of gamers (and remember just how many 4th brought in with it shiny starter set, army books and more professional production in general) who had never heard of them before.

Fourth edition though was almost as big a shakeup as AoS and you're right I don't remember any complaints whatsoever. There was no internet to whine endlessly on then though and in general people just shrugged their shoulders and got on with it.

Shifte
08-06-2016, 18:26
WFB and AOS aren't directly comparable in one sense. We have an inherent understanding of how a quasi-European smattering of societies can live in a dark forest, even when it has monsters in it. We understand the basic principle and can make certain assumptions.

Living on this?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/darkelf_stalker/17253451/809815/809815_original.jpg

Or this?

https://i.gyazo.com/1eddea822bfe6dcc210c8fb72176609c.jpg

It's much harder to reach conclusions in this setting without guidance.

We are told that Kingdoms were in all of the Mortal Realms. For example, that Nagash abided the living in ther Realm of Death as long as they worshipped and paid fealty to him. It's visibly immersion breaking to see these maps and have that contradiction be so in-your-face.

As I said in my OP, I'm trying to get into AOS. I will be buying Quest for Ghal Maraz soon. The first hardback book was better than I thought it would be but these setting problems still need to be addressed. How much did Gav Thorpe cover?

Choombatta
09-06-2016, 00:43
WFB and AOS aren't directly comparable in one sense. We have an inherent understanding of how a quasi-European smattering of societies can live in a dark forest, even when it has monsters in it. We understand the basic principle and can make certain assumptions.

Living on this?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/darkelf_stalker/17253451/809815/809815_original.jpg

Or this?

https://i.gyazo.com/1eddea822bfe6dcc210c8fb72176609c.jpg

It's much harder to reach conclusions in this setting without guidance.

We are told that Kingdoms were in all of the Mortal Realms. For example, that Nagash abided the living in ther Realm of Death as long as they worshipped and paid fealty to him. It's visibly immersion breaking to see these maps and have that contradiction be so in-your-face.

As I said in my OP, I'm trying to get into AOS. I will be buying Quest for Ghal Maraz soon. The first hardback book was better than I thought it would be but these setting problems still need to be addressed. How much did Gav Thorpe cover?

What would those quasi-European areas look like after being claimed and consumed by Khorne and his realm for hundreds of years?
Ripe for farmland?
Full of forests?
You may as well be asking how do crops grow in the Realm of Chaos.
The only contradiction so far, in the printed books that I have read so far, is comparing what was going on hundreds of years ago to what is going on today.
The Realm of Death did indeed have Kingdoms, but they are long gone.
The Realm of Fire did indeed have Kingdoms, but they are long gone, and the only humans left live in caves hiding from the hordes of Bloodbound.
The Mortal Realms once held many Kingdoms, but that is not the current times of AoS, that was the past.
So how do the mortals that still remain outside of Azyr feed themselves?
Any way they possibly can.

The bearded one
09-06-2016, 01:29
How do they still exist after hundreds of years in an environment of bloodbelching geysers and hundred mile wide maws, in a condition able to field massive armies?


.. you know, every AoS map I see looks like the realm of chaos.


.... is that gonna be the twist? Eventually we'll find out everyone's actually been inside the realm of chaos this whole time?

Turgol
09-06-2016, 08:53
Some points:

-AoS setting is a disappointment so far in terms of narrative. Black library novels are generally ok but lack the feeling of being important, because they mostly deal with irrelevant events on the big side of things. Main studio books are really scenario books with an excuse of a narrative. Quest for Ghal Maraz is pretty good if you do not expect anything other than this. I guess the name of the book is not misleading in that sense. But Balance of Power, for instance, was a huge disappointment for me. I was like: ok, this is it, the turn to an understandable narrative of the big picture I have been waiting for. It was actually advised this way: "the balance of power is shifting and you will experience it here". Great, I thought, at last we are understanding what this is all about and with a reference to XIX century european politics! No, it was not about explaining the bigger picture. The only reference to the title was in the only small passage worth reading in that book, which dealt with one event. No explaining of the big picture at all.

-I read yesterday part of the End Times series and the difference in dramatic quality is pretty striking. Now I know this is connected to the fact that ET deals with a fantasy world which was not only already complete, but also emotionally connected to the reader. AoS cannot count on that. Good. But still, the question would be: what does it require to make this new world emotionally linkable to the reader?

The confusion of not having an understanding of what the world is nor what power and goals each faction has; not having real characters (except for gods who never show up); and just focussing on producing (pretty good) scenarios just adds to this: you cannot build anything that way.

AoS needs a 4th edition WHFB, that is, a reconstruction of each faction with not only a description of its current state, but also linking each faction to an epic story. This is what made WHFB. Why did you connect to the Empire, the HE or the undead? Because of Sigmar and Black Fire Pass, the war of the three emperors and the sylvanian wars; or Aenarion and holding the whole world alive against chaos by yourself, the sundering and civil war; or the huge story of Nagash and then the vampire counts.

AoS does not have that. It could, of course. Maybe it will. It has an easier task than WHFB did in a certain way, as it can built its past around WHFB. That could be part of the glorious past of each faction: Sigmar (or Tyrion, or Malekith or Nagash) already has a history and by filling a gap by telling the post ET history of each of them (in an understandable, non mythic-draccotioth-way – see below), they would have a background history. But they have not done this. They have not even tried.

-On the other hand, as fond as I was with the WHFB world, something had to be done about it. Destroying the world was a bad idea IMO; changing it radically was a necessity though. 20+ years of hearing every time the same story had gone old and boring beyond suffering. How bad the creative power of GW was after 1994 is a simple to prove as by saying that (i) no edition really added anything important to the background which was new after 4th edition; and (ii) all new things added, as well as the change of tone in each edition, were for the worst. The few moments that it got interesting at the ending of 90s start of the 2000s, GW felt the need to retcon. This happened with the (quite good) Eltharion-Malekith story and with the (initially good) Storm of Chaos. By 8th edition all "new" stuff was utterly crap: OK sucked as a new faction regarding their background; and the one plot that was developed during 8th edition (Aliathra's kidnap) was really bad.

So something had to be done and they did it in a radical way. Now I think this was too much, simply because the did not have to start ALL over again. The current shape of AoS shows the problem of such an approach: maybe they will get there some day, but it takes time. They did take this decision though. And now the question is: how do you go from AoS (which is comparable to WHFB 1-2nd edition of having just a setting without dramatic or emotional involvement) to WHFB 4th edition? Please do not answer by saying: "by simply stating that Karl Franz awoke from a nightmare". You may or not be right, but this is not what I'am asking for. I'am asking: assume AoS is there and it has to improved to a 4th edition point, what do they need to do? Here are my main points:

-Explaining the nature of the world and its connection to the ET. Leaving this open will always be a fresh wound if not dealt with. I do think there are plausible and interesting ways to do this and I even think that AoS's fluff suggests that such a connection exist in a more interesting way than simply: Sigmar flew and was picked by a huge stellar dragon. This is primitive mythical language, but we want a modern, explaining language. Relying on primitive mythical language is a bad decision IMO; you could state the people X believe Sigmar to have been carried out by a stellar dragon, but then use a more modern language to produce an actual explosion. Otherwise, precisely because the reader (as a modern reader) cannot connect to primitive-mythical language, it will always be an alien setting. Stating: the explosion of the Old World along with the winds of magic gave birth to worlds formed from the winds of magic, each of them connected to their incarnate/deity connected to that wind (or something along these lines), is most needed.

-Feeling the gap in time. Alright, we know we have the Age of Myth, the Age of Chaos and the Age of Sigmar. Good. Build on them. WHFB shows that you need an epic, legendary background on each faction. Simply stating that they are connected to a god (like the Fyreslayers: connected to Grimnir, even Grimnir incarnate in them and their runes, is not a bad idea; but you need to build on that) won't do it; you need more. You need your Horus Heresy, the unification of the Empire, the creation of the vortex, the war of vengeance/the beard, etc. Do it.

-Having a geography. I know part of the change of AoS is explained by the limited and all too unoriginal geography of the WHFB world; they wanted to go 40k, with a galaxy and not a planet as a background. Good. But you need something both on an internal level of each faction – lands to connect to that can be perceived – and on the big picture. Do it.

-Build heroes that you can connect to. Gods are supposed to feel this role now. Fine. Develop them: show how they are connected to emotions of their mortal history; how they are still connected to their mortal origins; what they struggle with, etc. Build mortal characters as well. Gordrakk is a good starting point, but you need to give him an epic history which goes beyond "he is really powerful and means to unite all orks".

-Mostly: produce an explanation of the big picture of things, like WHFB rulebooks used to. The AoS book is not that.

GrandmasterWang
09-06-2016, 15:13
WFB and AOS aren't directly comparable in one sense. We have an inherent understanding of how a quasi-European smattering of societies can live in a dark forest, even when it has monsters in it. We understand the basic principle and can make certain assumptions.

Living on this?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/darkelf_stalker/17253451/809815/809815_original.jpg

Or this?

https://i.gyazo.com/1eddea822bfe6dcc210c8fb72176609c.jpg

It's much harder to reach conclusions in this setting without guidance.

We are told that Kingdoms were in all of the Mortal Realms. For example, that Nagash abided the living in ther Realm of Death as long as they worshipped and paid fealty to him. It's visibly immersion breaking to see these maps and have that contradiction be so in-your-face.

As I said in my OP, I'm trying to get into AOS. I will be buying Quest for Ghal Maraz soon. The first hardback book was better than I thought it would be but these setting problems still need to be addressed. How much did Gav Thorpe cover?
The last post by Turgol was great. Well thought out and written.

Looking at those 2 pictures given GW and the AoS setting it is easy to understand how races survive and thrive in places like that.

It is I the great and mighty sage GrandmasterWang and I shall enlighten all you non-believers and show you the light of Sigmar!

For the Emperor!!

... i mean Sigmar... ahem.

Prepare to have your lore mysteries............explained.


First picture.... the Bloodbound are cannibals. Everyday they send tribesmen to collect blood from the blood geysers for the rest of the tribe to consume (the Bloodbound can just drink/eat blood because Khorne). The last Bloodbound back without a full BloodBucket of Khorne(tm) gets eaten.

Second picture....... see that place on the middle left of the map called "Sandwatch Keep".... everyone including even the stormcast in that part of town get their eats from there. The thing with the Khorne followers is that they are the Bloodbound not the Spellingbound and writing is not their strong point even though they have some ground breaking and innovative blood "artists". The place is actually called "Sandwich Keep" and they do a great Sandwich and beer deal which keeps even the Stormcast (those with mouthpiece holes in their masks) coming back time and time again. So basically Sandwich Keep has a large monopoly over the food industry in that part of the mortal realms.

There with that mystery solved you may rest easily. If anyone else of the unwashed masses would like an Age of Sigmar lore question answered just ask.......




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Horace35
09-06-2016, 15:33
1st and 2nd edition did not have much in the way of in-depth fluff, and some of what they did have changed drastically between editions.
It was not until the release of WHFRP that the settings started to become more detailed (years later, not a single year).
I have brought up before, that in the early editions of WFB, the Slaan were devolved Old Ones, lithe and agile, who commanded an army of nothing but lobotomized slaves.
Then, suddenly, Slaan were the creations of the Old Ones, bloated and slow moving, who commanded an army full of saurian beasts.

I do not recall a single complaint about such a drastic change in setting in those early editions.
Generational maybe?

Probably more to do with size of fanbase and the fact the Warhammer world has existed as it was for ~ 20 years.

I also think it is fair to have higher expectations of a product GW put out, after all they are not a new start up company trying to find their feet they have been doing this for decades. The weight they can put behind releases is a whole different ball game to the first few editions of Warhammer. AoS should have been released in a much better state or not at all (until it was finished)

I agree Turgol re: the setting

Choombatta
09-06-2016, 16:15
Probably more to do with size of fanbase and the fact the Warhammer world has existed as it was for ~ 20 years.

I also think it is fair to have higher expectations of a product GW put out, after all they are not a new start up company trying to find their feet they have been doing this for decades. The weight they can put behind releases is a whole different ball game to the first few editions of Warhammer. AoS should have been released in a much better state or not at all (until it was finished)

I agree Turgol re: the setting

So it is generational?

Horace35
09-06-2016, 16:54
So it is generational?
Yes ;) people generally do not like change, especially to something they have cherished for most of their life

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Silencio
09-06-2016, 17:21
Yes ;) people generally do not like change, especially to something they have cherished for most of their life

It's not that people don't like change, it's that people don't like disastrous corporate-driven change by people who don't have a clue what they're doing.

Sure, GW made some drastic changes to the fluff in the past, but back then people didn't complain so much, because the creative team had real skillz. The change to Slann actually got me interested in WFB (before then I was exclusively 40K). It was everything I wanted from a fantasy faction: Descendants of a once-great reptilian empire skittering among ancient ruins in a dense jungle laden with death-traps? Check. Ancient telepathic toads of unfathomable power secretly watching the world, plotting to enact a grand cosmic scheme beyond mortal comprehension? Check. Dinosaurs? Check.

That new lore, supported by a solid aesthetic and decent rules, made the new Slann a clear upgrade to "nebulous aliens commanding armies of lobotomy patients". But like I said, that was when GW was capable of real creativity.

For me, the creative peak of GW was in the early 90s. Back then it had a truly formidable roster of creative talent, each with a highly distinctive vision: Ian Miller (art), Adrian Smith (art), Ian Watson (novels), "Jack Yeovil" (novels), Jes Goodwin (design), Perry twins (sculpting), Rick Priestley (rules/lore), Andy Chambers (rules/lore). I mean, when you have people like that on your team, how can you not succeed?

Likewise, the teams at Relic Entertainment and Creative Assembly are filled with real talent, and they work in an environment that lets them be creative. That's why the Dawn of War 3 trailer has received nothing but praise, and why Warhammer: Total War has the kind of sales GW can only dream of.

I don't know who is making GW's creative decisions at the moment, but whoever they are, they don't know what the hell they're doing. And that's why GW needs to seriously re-evaluate its hiring policy and its operational structure. Otherwise, it will go exactly the same way as TSR.

Choombatta
09-06-2016, 18:27
Yes ;) people generally do not like change, especially to something they have cherished for most of their life

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

That is not what I meant by generational.
If AoS was released in 1990, the lack of in depth fluff would have been acceptable.
Since AoS was released in 2015, lack of in depth fluff is not acceptable.

That is generational.

Mikosan
09-06-2016, 18:36
It was everything I wanted from a fantasy faction: Descendants of a once-great reptilian empire skittering among ancient ruins in a dense jungle laden with death-traps? Check. Ancient telepathic toads of unfathomable power secretly watching the world, plotting to enact a grand cosmic scheme beyond mortal comprehension? Check. Dinosaurs? Check.

Yeah when is GW gonna give up this mortal realms lark and get back to the uber creative gritty realism of the old world;)

J/K...somewhat.

Seriously I wonder if our age at the time such fluff was put out has anything to do with peoples attachment to the old world? I mean I LOVED the Icewind Dale Trilogy when I was in my early teens, still do but it is honestly pretty basic stuff. Changed my world at the time though. When I skim through newer titles like that they seem childish and dumb. Not how I remember Icewind Dale though is it? Of course that I was 13 when I first read it and am 35 now when I thumb through newer stuff probably has a lot to do with the perception.

It seems to me that a lot of people arguing against the AoS fluff haven't actually read any. Which is fine you certainly don't have to, but I see a lot of posts about how stupid it is citing reasons that those of us who do read it know are clearly false. Such as Stormcast being mindless automatons, they are humans with personalities all their own. Of course you wouldn't know that just by looking at the cover of a book or box of models.

Look, AoS fluff isn't going to be picking up any Hugo awards, but neither was the old world. I actually prefer the old world as well, but is that because it is sooooo much better or more creative....or because i pretty much grew up with it and it sparked the imagination of 13 year old me just as I was becoming engrossed in all things fantasy? 35 year old me knows the answer. Change is the only constant, all things must end, life goes on... choose your cliche and just try and enjoy the things you actually like about your hobby, nobody can take that away from you.

Silencio
09-06-2016, 19:04
Yeah when is GW gonna give up this mortal realms lark and get back to the uber creative gritty realism of the old world;)

J/K...somewhat.

Seriously I wonder if our age at the time such fluff was put out has anything to do with peoples attachment to the old world? I mean I LOVED the Icewind Dale Trilogy when I was in my early teens, still do but it is honestly pretty basic stuff. Changed my world at the time though. When I skim through newer titles like that they seem childish and dumb. Not how I remember Icewind Dale though is it? Of course that I was 13 when I first read it and am 35 now when I thumb through newer stuff probably has a lot to do with the perception.

It seems to me that a lot of people arguing against the AoS fluff haven't actually read any. Which is fine you certainly don't have to, but I see a lot of posts about how stupid it is citing reasons that those of us who do read it know are clearly false. Such as Stormcast being mindless automatons, they are humans with personalities all their own. Of course you wouldn't know that just by looking at the cover of a book or box of models.

Look, AoS fluff isn't going to be picking up any Hugo awards, but neither was the old world. I actually prefer the old world as well, but is that because it is sooooo much better or more creative....or because i pretty much grew up with it and it sparked the imagination of 13 year old me just as I was becoming engrossed in all things fantasy? 35 year old me knows the answer. Change is the only constant, all things must end, life goes on... choose your cliche and just try and enjoy the things you actually like about your hobby, nobody can take that away from you.

Ah, the old nostalgia argument. I used to believe it myself, but then I realised no, it isn't just nostalgia. There is a very real difference in creativity between the GW that was and the GW that is.
For instance, compare the Realm of Chaos art of Ian Miller to the CGI stuff GW cranks out today. Compare the atmospheric fluff in the old Realm of Chaos books to the mightiest bestest evar drivel in the Realmgate Wars.

GW hasn't really innovated in the last decade; everything it has released has been a derivative of something it released in its early days.

GW is bloated and stagnant; that's why it can no longer innovate. However, its subsidiaries ForgeWorld and Black Library, being much smaller and more focused, have been able to push out creative works and make good money. They have talent -- FW has the likes of Alan Bligh, BL has Abnett and ADB -- and they are managed in such a way as to allow their talent the freedom to use their skills.

Look at GW's most successful new releases of last year:the Mechanicum and the Horus Heresy boxed set. Both of these ideas were first developed by BL and FW before being pilfered by GW proper. GW no longer has the capacity to innovate, and though it continues to create technically excellent miniatures, it must rely on other organisations to do its creative development for it.

That's what's wrong with the company.

Mikosan
09-06-2016, 19:11
I thought we were talking setting and fluff. Your previous post about lizardman background was the quote because you seemed to be bathing in the nostalgia of mediocre fluff. GW as a corporate entity is another topic with countless threads on Warseer. I'm sure your perspective will be well received in those echo chambers.

Seriously that font size is painful.

Silencio
09-06-2016, 19:19
I thought we were talking setting and fluff. Your previous post about lizardman background was the quote because you seemed to be bathing in the nostalgia of mediocre fluff. GW as a corporate entity is another topic with countless threads on Warseer. I'm sure your perspective will be well received in those echo chambers.

Seriously that font size is painful.

We were indeed talking about setting and fluff. I was trying to make the point that BL and FW know how to write relatively good fluff, while GW doesn't.

As for the lizardmen fluff, sure, that was in fact mediocre (I suspect you think mediocre means bad, but it actually means average, which was good enough for me). Compare the mediocre lizardmen fluff to the sub-par Slann fluff that came before it, and you will finally understand my comments about the Slann.

GW as a corporate entity is not another topic; it's the root cause of the problem, which is why I brought it up. And the reason my perspective would be well-received in this "echo chamber" is that it is a widespread belief, which proves that GW must be doing something wrong.

Sorry about the font size. Has been fixed now, I think.

Mikosan
09-06-2016, 19:53
Font is indeed fixed, Thanks!

I get the meaning of mediocre. It is what I would call a lot of what we have in AoS, though it is getting better. It may not be what you are looking for, but that doesn't make it horrible.

Have you checked out the Flesh-eater Courts fluff? It's really quite good, a court of delusional ghouls envisioning themselves as the nobility of a kingdom. It is at least on par with some of the better fluff from the old world IMHO.

Also, that GW corporate has problems is indeed a widespread belief, but does not reflect what is happening right now. Specialist games coming back, discounts on bundles, start collecting boxes, holiday sales, community interaction, POINTS!, FAQS, global campaigns. All of this is a change of corporate mentality that has come about since Kirby left. Just because they should have done all this with WFB doesn't change the fact that they are doing it now. As with the fluff it is increasingly becoming an outdated issue. IF the positive steps taken recently continue. I fully acknowledge that it is a pretty big IF.

Silencio
09-06-2016, 20:04
Font is indeed fixed, Thanks!

I get the meaning of mediocre. It is what I would call a lot of what we have in AoS, though it is getting better. It may not be what you are looking for, but that doesn't make it horrible.

If I were in a tiny minority who thought the AoS fluff is horrible, you would have a point. But the hatred for AoS is pretty ubiquitous. Whether or not this is purely a matter of nostalgia doesn't change the fact that it is a creative decision that is "horrible" to large swathes of the customer base.



Have you checked out the Flesh-eater Courts fluff? It's really quite good, a court of delusional ghouls envisioning themselves as the nobility of a kingdom. It is at least on par with some of the better fluff from the old world IMHO.

I have heard about this, and must admit, it is a pretty engaging concept. However, the fact that it takes place in the same multiverse as the Stormcast Stormhosts and the Bloodbound Blood Warriors instantly makes me dislike it. Sorry.



Also, that GW corporate has problems is indeed a widespread belief, but does not reflect what is happening right now. Specialist games coming back, discounts on bundles, start collecting boxes, holiday sales, community interaction, POINTS!, FAQS, global campaigns. All of this is a change of corporate mentality that has come about since Kirby left. Just because they should have done all this with WFB doesn't change the fact that they are doing it now. As with the fluff it is increasingly becoming an outdated issue. IF the positive steps taken recently continue. I fully acknowledge that it is a pretty big IF.

Rountree is surely an improvement over the Great Unclean One Kirby (but that is hardly an achievement). It's too early to say more, but I will admit that if GW can continue to make big changes to the way it operates, it may not only survive, but thrive. The changes needed are still big, though.

Turgol
09-06-2016, 20:18
If I were in a tiny minority who thought the AoS fluff is horrible, you would have a point. But the hatred for AoS is pretty ubiquitous. Whether or not this is purely a matter of nostalgia doesn't change the fact that it is a creative decision that is "horrible" to large swathes of the customer base.



I have heard about this, and must admit, it is a pretty engaging concept. However, the fact that it takes place in the same multiverse as the Stormcast Stormhosts and the Bloodbound Blood Warriors instantly makes me dislike it. Sorry.



Rountree is surely an improvement over the Great Unclean One Kirby (but that is hardly an achievement). It's too early to say more, but I will admit that if GW can continue to make big changes to the way it operates, it may not only survive, but thrive. The changes needed are still big, though.

Big changes really should be reduced to three points, two of which are not that hard to handle if you have a clue of what you must do (and I hope Rountree administration does):

-Fixing AoS setting. See my previous post. I'am sceptical about them knowing they have to do this.
-Getting serious with gameplay with community involvement. Now, I do not mean follow what the so called competitive players say. WQ:ST is a good example of where they can and should go to. I have a lot of trust about this on AoS.
-Fixing pricing. This is IMO the one, big disabling weight left by Kirby. Very hard to fix. Rountree has done a lot right regarding this: boxsets (sure, not cheap, but reasonably priced compared to models); start collecting. But business model is still built around crazy priced new model releases. This is a major problem and I do not think they will fix it.

So I have a lot of faith of them doing 1/3 right; I hope they fix the second poiny (how would leave us at 2/3 right); and I think we will not be the third point really fixed.

ScruffMan
09-06-2016, 20:37
Yeah when is GW gonna give up this mortal realms lark and get back to the uber creative gritty realism of the old world;)

J/K...somewhat.

Seriously I wonder if our age at the time such fluff was put out has anything to do with peoples attachment to the old world? I mean I LOVED the Icewind Dale Trilogy when I was in my early teens, still do but it is honestly pretty basic stuff. Changed my world at the time though. When I skim through newer titles like that they seem childish and dumb. Not how I remember Icewind Dale though is it? Of course that I was 13 when I first read it and am 35 now when I thumb through newer stuff probably has a lot to do with the perception.

It seems to me that a lot of people arguing against the AoS fluff haven't actually read any. Which is fine you certainly don't have to, but I see a lot of posts about how stupid it is citing reasons that those of us who do read it know are clearly false. Such as Stormcast being mindless automatons, they are humans with personalities all their own. Of course you wouldn't know that just by looking at the cover of a book or box of models.

Look, AoS fluff isn't going to be picking up any Hugo awards, but neither was the old world. I actually prefer the old world as well, but is that because it is sooooo much better or more creative....or because i pretty much grew up with it and it sparked the imagination of 13 year old me just as I was becoming engrossed in all things fantasy? 35 year old me knows the answer. Change is the only constant, all things must end, life goes on... choose your cliche and just try and enjoy the things you actually like about your hobby, nobody can take that away from you.


Agree with this. I'm never going to get back that magical feeling of opening up Warhammer Armies: High Elves as a 14 year old as much as I may search for it. Games Workshop has changed sure but I have more and that is the real reason. They're still making things that I find fun and I'm not going to obsess over them as much as I did back then but I doubt I would of had I been a 34 year old back then either.

They're still releasing games that I enjoy playing and models that I like looking at and painting. More than good enough for me.

Silencio
09-06-2016, 21:19
Agree with this. I'm never going to get back that magical feeling of opening up Warhammer Armies: High Elves as a 14 year old as much as I may search for it. Games Workshop has changed sure but I have more and that is the real reason. They're still making things that I find fun and I'm not going to obsess over them as much as I did back then but I doubt I would of had I been a 34 year old back then either.

They're still releasing games that I enjoy playing and models that I like looking at and painting. More than good enough for me.

Another problem with the nostalgia argument is that it doesn't reflect sales figures. If GW was as creative as it's ever been, and anyone who didn't like AoS was simply a disgruntled old fart longing for his youth, we'd expect GW to continue growing along with the market as it constantly accumulated new players. But over the last decade GW has had big problems winning over new players, in a growing market.

This suggests the root cause lies in the dwindling appeal of GW's products, and not solely in an ageing player base. Increased competition may be playing a part, but the competition has only managed to become a threat because GW let it, by disgruntling customers with poor practices, poor rules and poor fluff.

As Turgol mentioned, GW has a lot of work to do to make its setting enticing, its games playable, and its prices affordable. Only then will it finally be able to deliver the growth it keeps promising its shareholders.

Choombatta
10-06-2016, 00:20
If GW was as creative as it's ever been, and anyone who didn't like AoS was simply a disgruntled old fart longing for his youth, we'd expect GW to continue growing along with the market as it constantly accumulated new players. But over the last decade GW has had big problems winning over new players, in a growing market.

I personally think it is the opposite, and you sort of touch on it in your post.
I think the "old farts", of which I include myself in, have no issue with the new setting and lack of in depth fluff in just a years time.
I think it is the younger players (i.e. generation) that demand more of their product these days, which is probably why they have problems winning over new (i.e. younger) players.

As an example, when I was young, and the Atari 2600 came out with only 3 games available, everyone was ecstatic about it.
If an Xbox was released today, with only 3 games available at release, younger people would wait to buy it until more games were released, but older players would be content with the 3 games for the time being.

Andnore
10-06-2016, 09:07
I personally think it is the opposite, and you sort of touch on it in your post.
I think the "old farts", of which I include myself in, have no issue with the new setting and lack of in depth fluff in just a years time.
I think it is the younger players (i.e. generation) that demand more of their product these days, which is probably why they have problems winning over new (i.e. younger) players.

As an example, when I was young, and the Atari 2600 came out with only 3 games available, everyone was ecstatic about it.
If an Xbox was released today, with only 3 games available at release, younger people would wait to buy it until more games were released, but older players would be content with the 3 games for the time being.

Well, there's the issue that... there already exists other consoles that have libraries in the hundreds now, so what's the incentive for buying an AoSBOX? Future releases? Cool, 'cept that GW doesn't advertise far enough in advance for the hypemachine to sell their AoSBOX to the fencesitters, who'll keep waiting for that killer ap to come out. Worst case scenario, they'll get a WarmaHordesStation 3, or a Mantic U instead.

Choombatta
10-06-2016, 14:37
Well, there's the issue that... there already exists other consoles that have libraries in the hundreds now, so what's the incentive for buying an AoSBOX? Future releases? Cool, 'cept that GW doesn't advertise far enough in advance for the hypemachine to sell their AoSBOX to the fencesitters, who'll keep waiting for that killer ap to come out. Worst case scenario, they'll get a WarmaHordesStation 3, or a Mantic U instead.

That is true, but expecting a brand new console to release with hundreds of games right at the start, because other consoles have been out for years and already have hundreds of games available is just not realistic.

Silencio
10-06-2016, 15:00
That is true, but expecting a brand new console to release with hundreds of games right at the start, because other consoles have been out for years and already have hundreds of games available is just not realistic.

If I'm reading your metaphor right, you're basically reiterating the common argument that, if we want a setting as deep as that of WFB, we should wait 25 years. That's fine, but the issue with the AoS fluff is not just that it isn't fleshed out enough. It's that it's terrible. More specifically, it's vapid, derivative of 40K, and nonsensical. It lacks nuance, humanity, verisimilitude, and historicity. It's so over the top that even Looney Tunes cartoons have more restraint. It reeks of artistic laziness and corporate pandering.

I don't think that these are things that will be fixed by more attention from GW. On the contrary, I think they'll only get worse.

jtrowell
10-06-2016, 15:57
Remember when they released this obscure movie called Star Wars : A new hope, how the setting felt empty because we didn't have yet all the movies, books and comics to expend it ? Or did you remember it differently ?

When Wizards of the Coast released the Eberron campaign settings, in only one book we had a nice refreshing new world that felt very differently from the vanilla Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms previous settings while still finding a place for all the generic D&D tropes.

The setting was and still is rich enough that it might serve as the basis for a wargame as well as a roleplaying game, hell the whole continent has just finished a big civil/succession war that left the former empire divised into several smaller nations.

You have Kaarnath with their military tradition and major use of necromancy (and blood magic) during the war
Breland as the new industrial powerhouse
Aundair as the small but magically powerful nation
Thrane, where the church of the Silver Flame took control of the nation after a popular uprising

Then you also have the various secondary states, some of them recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold :
- Dargun, the new goblin nation, founded by a former hobgoblin mercenary
- Droam, the nation of monster, with a trio of legendary Hags leading armies of trolls, ogres, medusas, harpies, gnolls, minotaurs and other creatures.
- The Shadow marches, a territory of swamps and marches but rich in dragonshards, with a local population of orcs, half orcs and humans
- The Mrorrs bastions, the ancien mountains of the dwarves (and some orcs too)
- The large forests of (not sure of english name), formerly a part of Aundair, now a nation of druids and farmers

And this is before going into the other continents, all of them described in the same very first book that included the whole settings.

With just this one book, we got both rules *and* a whole complete setting that was already well defined and with a lot of potential stories.

Saying that AoS needed time to develop the setting was acceptable when the game was just released and all that we had was the starter box, but how many books have since been released without getting even the level of the lone Eberron first setting book ?

A good setting with good authors should have already been decent with the very first big book released. Anything less would be a failure on part of the authors.

Denny
10-06-2016, 15:59
More specifically, it's vapid, derivative of 40K, and nonsensical. It lacks nuance, humanity, verisimilitude, and historicity.

Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I'm sure Lord Verisimilitude has been mentioned in the AoS fluff.
Isn't he one of the Skaven leaders? :shifty:

Mikosan
10-06-2016, 19:45
Remember when they released this obscure movie called Star Wars : A new hope, how the setting felt empty because we didn't have yet all the movies, books and comics to expend it ? Or did you remember it differently ?

A good setting with good authors should have already been decent with the very first big book released. Anything less would be a failure on part of the authors.

To the first part, I don't know about you but the only people I know that don't love Star Wars are the ones that didn't see the movies until they were adults. So yeah, I think that seeing them as a kid totally shapes your view of them later in life. Star Trek same thing. Not sure why the denial over this kind of nostalgia- it's a powerful force(get it!) for fanboys of just about anything.

Second part. I totally agree. Should and could have done better with the first book.

Captain Marius
10-06-2016, 20:22
I think its Lord Verminsimilitude who rules the skaven atm!

GrandmasterWang
11-06-2016, 09:03
I think its Lord Verminsimilitude who rules the skaven atm!
That is a nice touch if true!

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Shifte
11-06-2016, 10:54
It's weird how many people are equating my OP with a request for unreasonable info and 'gritty realism', lol.

Literally just asked for some places which look like they wouldn't kill you in a fortnight. :P

dalezzz
11-06-2016, 11:38
That is true, but expecting a brand new console to release with hundreds of games right at the start, because other consoles have been out for years and already have hundreds of games available is just not realistic.

Expecting Microsoft or Sony to release a new console with more/better games than some newcomers to the console market is hardly unreasonable though is it? And doubt anyone's expecting the PS5 to be released with more games than the ps1 .... I think people might be hoping for better games though

dalezzz
11-06-2016, 11:51
I personally think it is the opposite, and you sort of touch on it in your post.
I think the "old farts", of which I include myself in, have no issue with the new setting and lack of in depth fluff in just a years time.
I think it is the younger players (i.e. generation) that demand more of their product these days, which is probably why they have problems winning over new (i.e. younger) players.



As as a fellow old fart id say the setting by far the most offensive thing about this whole AoS mess, and judging by the mass of players who have quit over it I doubt I'm the only one

Personally I don't think it's about age of player , it's about size of company , some small startup company? ( like GW in the 80s) please take your time , the biggest company in the business by a large amount earning 50 million+ a year it's own production capabilitys and 30 years experience ? My patience is a lot shorter for some reason

The bearded one
11-06-2016, 16:51
As as a fellow old fart id say the setting by far the most offensive thing about this whole AoS mess, and judging by the mass of players who have quit over it I doubt I'm the only one

Similarly, while I had a preference for the ranked gameplay of 8th edition and before, I think I'll have a way easier time transitioning to the new game mechanics than to the new setting.

mdauben
12-06-2016, 06:32
.
The Old World: a world influenced by magic, which has two moons. One which is evil. Where fantasy creatures run amok. Where most of the factions (including the Empire) tend to live in places where actually venturing anywhere not under armed guard is lethal because even the tree want to kill you. Where we just hand wave a good number of the factions living and surviving (Chaos, High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarves) because of magic.

AoS: Hmmm, all this magical stuff seems a bit unbelievable.
I think part of the problem is while The Old World was full of fantastical elements it was obviously at its most basic built on an image of our real world.

Because of this we don't need details of how many acres of land the Empire had under cultivation, or the size of the high elf fishing fleet, or what percentage of the Wood Elf population was out hunting deer and wild boars every day. Those things were obviously going on so the details could be hand waved away as just the same sort of normal day to day stuff that goes on in the background in the real world.

In a world made up of blood geysers and lakes of lava and mountains of skulls all that is less obvious and starts to beg the question; how do people eat?

Obviously some people don't care. They just want cool fantastical landscapes to battle over with their cool fantastical armies. And thats cool for them.

On the other hand, it is just as obviously hard for other people to hand wave it away when there is no obvious answer to as simple a question as; what do these people eat? That denies them the immersion in the setting that they crave and hampers their ability to enjoy the game. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.

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Grimgold
22-06-2016, 02:22
You guys ever think that it's grimdark that's not doing so well with the new generation? Us kids of the 80s/90s (collectively referred to as old farts now), really dug the grimdark, from cyber punk, to 40k, to the Goth movement, to comics like watchmen, we really got into it. Millennials don't seem to have the same fascination with futile brutal and violent that we did, and their humor runs more towards the ironic and referential than the dark humor that's in war hammer. Maybe GW is trying to mix it up and take a lighter hearted view of the whole fantasy tropes, to attract a newer younger generation. Things like an invincible fortress on an island filled with cannibals surrounded by an ocean of lava is self referential humor (making fun of all of the invincible fortresses of old fantasy), and you guys are just not in on the joke.

Shifte
22-06-2016, 09:45
You guys ever think that it's grimdark that's not doing so well with the new generation? Us kids of the 80s/90s (collectively referred to as old farts now), really dug the grimdark, from cyber punk, to 40k, to the Goth movement, to comics like watchmen, we really got into it. Millennials don't seem to have the same fascination with futile brutal and violent that we did, and their humor runs more towards the ironic and referential than the dark humor that's in war hammer. Maybe GW is trying to mix it up and take a lighter hearted view of the whole fantasy tropes, to attract a newer younger generation. Things like an invincible fortress on an island filled with cannibals surrounded by an ocean of lava is self referential humor (making fun of all of the invincible fortresses of old fantasy), and you guys are just not in on the joke.

I don't think that you entirely know what grimdark actually means? I don't intend offence by that. It has nothing to do with whether something is explicable or not, though. Grimdark is primarily about tone and indicates a hopeless settings in which there is mostly misery.

"People on the fire island eat magma berries that grow in the lava" is not grimdark, but neither is it realistic. What it is, however, is an explanation. An explanation from GW to make the setting work is what I am after. As I made clear in the OP.

I'm not sure why people keep equating "hi can I have more information about how this works works there are some huge gaps" with "omg I want grimdark". It's such a defensive response. I'm literally asking for GW to fill the gaps. That's it.

I'm not sure they're going for subtle humour with that island, either. :P

StygianBeach
22-06-2016, 10:21
If kids these days can understand Hunger Games they should be able to understand Satire/Grim Dark.

Sadly, if my 20 year old Sister is any stick to measure by, they did not understand the gold within the Hunger Games. Might just be my sister though.

blackcherry
22-06-2016, 10:53
I think younger people and children do understand grimdark and satire very well (I myself am someone born in '89, so I grew up it long after the hayday of cyberpunks, goths and a general anarchist movement). They just have a different take on things that as an different generation we can get as they have similar roots, but not in exactly the same way.

Satire tends to be a bit more obviously vicious these days, where as most of the best works of 40k and warhammer satire were subtle in that they were straight faced about it and it was only satire if the reader interpreted things in a certain way. Also, most of the satire of the 80's is now our reality, so irony is a great distancing mechanism for many who realise the world is fundamentally screwed up and it's unlikely they can do anything about it except to actively make it worse.

So most kids today are effectively Goths/nihilists at the entry level. No wonder some of the satire of warhammer is passed over. It's rather quaint when you think about it :p

Rogue Star
22-06-2016, 11:03
It's weird how many people are equating my OP with a request for unreasonable info and 'gritty realism', lol.

Literally just asked for some places which look like they wouldn't kill you in a fortnight. :P

There was a recent reader question in White Dwarf weekly, with someone asking if wizards still use the Winds of Magic in Age of Sigmar. The answer made it sound like the Realms were in fact the Winds of Magic personified, and that everything was taking place in the Realm of Chaos...

Essentially, I think GW are reluctant to map out the eight realms because they're not static... the "Brimstone Peninsula" for example, under Khorne's domination, mountains will shape like leering skulls, the skies will rain blood, rivers of molten brass will flow... if the Stormcast Eternals or the like overpower the Blood God and seize and hold the region, the mountains will form volcanoes, the rivers will become mineral, volcanic water, etc.

It's probably why it comes off as a battle of good versus evil and some compared it to Planescape, etc - it's less a physical battle and more a metaphysical one.

Shifte
22-06-2016, 11:17
There was a recent reader question in White Dwarf weekly, with someone asking if wizards still use the Winds of Magic in Age of Sigmar. The answer made it sound like the Realms were in fact the Winds of Magic personified, and that everything was taking place in the Realm of Chaos...

Essentially, I think GW are reluctant to map out the eight realms because they're not static... the "Brimstone Peninsula" for example, under Khorne's domination, mountains will shape like leering skulls, the skies will rain blood, rivers of molten brass will flow... if the Stormcast Eternals or the like overpower the Blood God and seize and hold the region, the mountains will form volcanoes, the rivers will become mineral, volcanic water, etc.

It's probably why it comes off as a battle of good versus evil and some compared it to Planescape, etc - it's less a physical battle and more a metaphysical one.


The highlighted bit, do you have a source for that? Because I'd actually like it if that were the lore. It was one of my queries in the OP. :)

Grimgold
22-06-2016, 16:36
I don't think that you entirely know what grimdark actually means? I don't intend offence by that. It has nothing to do with whether something is explicable or not, though. Grimdark is primarily about tone and indicates a hopeless settings in which there is mostly misery.

"People on the fire island eat magma berries that grow in the lava" is not grimdark, but neither is it realistic. What it is, however, is an explanation. An explanation from GW to make the setting work is what I am after. As I made clear in the OP.

I'm not sure why people keep equating "hi can I have more information about how this works works there are some huge gaps" with "omg I want grimdark". It's such a defensive response. I'm literally asking for GW to fill the gaps. That's it.

I'm not sure they're going for subtle humour with that island, either. :P

I think I have a fair grasp on it with the futile, brutal and violent bit. As for the island, it's a joke, it's not meant to be subtle, it's like eldar calling humans monkeh, or like the absurdity of undead playing football at the temple of nefel. It's supposed to be nonsense, that's the joke, and it's referential because of all of the improbable fortresses in war hammer lore. Demanding a plausible explanation for it is like asking why there was a talking dog after a friend finishes telling a joke. Worse you think they are incompetent because they failed to explain the talking dog, and your entire perception of fun with interacting with them hinges on a good explanation for the talking dog. I don't think you are demanding grimdark, I think you don't get that it's supposed to be a joke.

Andnore
22-06-2016, 17:24
I think I have a fair grasp on it with the futile, brutal and violent bit. As for the island, it's a joke, it's not meant to be subtle, it's like eldar calling humans monkeh, or like the absurdity of undead playing football at the temple of nefel. It's supposed to be nonsense, that's the joke, and it's referential because of all of the improbable fortresses in war hammer lore. Demanding a plausible explanation for it is like asking why there was a talking dog after a friend finishes telling a joke. Worse you think they are incompetent because they failed to explain the talking dog, and your entire perception of fun with interacting with them hinges on a good explanation for the talking dog. I don't think you are demanding grimdark, I think you don't get that it's supposed to be a joke.

Asking for a plausible explanation for how people live on what is essentially an active volcano isn't unreasonable, and trying to strawman the argument by equating the person asking these questions with someone who'd argue that it makes no sense for a joke about a talking dog to actually include a talking dog, is only making you come across as a douche.

The more fantastical a setting becomes, the more fleshing out it requires. And trying to sweep any criticisms about the setting under the rug with a "Well, don't think about it!" only begs the question, if GW can't be bothered explaining how their "new" (anything that's a year old I refuse to consider "new") setting works on its most basic level, why should I bother paying money for it? Money, I might add, being the reason WHFB got canned in favor of AoS in the first place.

Shifte
22-06-2016, 19:27
Asking for a plausible explanation for how people who live on what is essentially an active volcano isn't unreasonable, and trying to strawman the argument by equating the person asking these questions with someone who'd argue that it makes no sense for a joke about a talking dog to actually include a talking dog, is only making you come across as a douche.

The more fantastical a setting becomes, the more fleshing out it requiers. And trying to sweep any criticisms about the setting under the rug with a "Well, don't think about it!" only begs the question, if GW can't be bothered explaining how their "new" (anything that's a year old I refuse to consider "new") setting works on its most basic level, why should I bother paying money for it? Money, I might add, being the reason WHFB got canned in favor of AoS in the first place.

This.

Plus, it clearly isn't intended as a joke, lol. It just isn't.

Grimgold
22-06-2016, 22:51
Asking for a plausible explanation for how people live on what is essentially an active volcano isn't unreasonable, and trying to strawman the argument by equating the person asking these questions with someone who'd argue that it makes no sense for a joke about a talking dog to actually include a talking dog, is only making you come across as a douche.

The more fantastical a setting becomes, the more fleshing out it requires. And trying to sweep any criticisms about the setting under the rug with a "Well, don't think about it!" only begs the question, if GW can't be bothered explaining how their "new" (anything that's a year old I refuse to consider "new") setting works on its most basic level, why should I bother paying money for it? Money, I might add, being the reason WHFB got canned in favor of AoS in the first place.

Setting aside the fact that it's a joke (and it is and you are captain anti-joke), really, that's the straw that broke the camel back for you? Not Renaissance era space travel, not magic, not sentient fungus, not impossible mohawks, not sex demons from another dimension, not ambulatory trees, not sky castles, not mermaids, not flying creatures with the aerodynamics and lift capability of a brick, it's the fact that people live on an island that is the size of texas surrounded by lava, really? People in the real world live near active volcanoes, and they aren't fire infused demigods. It's just baffling to me that that is your hang up when there are so many worse McGuffins just laying about that you had to actually hurdle jump to get past to complain about the island.

Andnore
22-06-2016, 23:28
Setting aside the fact that it's a joke (and it is and you are captain anti-joke), really, that's the straw that broke the camel back for you? Not Renaissance era space travel, not magic, not sentient fungus, not impossible mohawks, not sex demons from another dimension, not ambulatory trees, not sky castles, not mermaids, not flying creatures with the aerodynamics and lift capability of a brick, it's the fact that people live on an island that is the size of texas surrounded by lava, really? People in the real world live near active volcanoes, and they aren't fire infused demigods. It's just baffling to me that that is your hang up when there are so many worse McGuffins just laying about that you had to actually hurdle jump to get past to complain about the island.

Ignoring the ad-hominem "captain anti-joke", how am I being unreasonable when I ask for the setting to do something as basic as explain where people are getting their food from? I earlier quoted an excerpt from Magic the Gathering's guide to Jund, a rather similar setting to Aqshy, which actually went out of its way to establish how the world worked in basic details. I'm willing to buy silly things like the Orcs/Orks/Orruks reproducing via spores because it's an explanation for their enormous numbers AND lack of females. I'm willing to buy that people can live in the Necromundan Underhive because they explain HOW those people live down there. I can buy that there are Dwarves with mohawkes the size of their entire bodies looking for the last remnants of their good because they explain why they're doing that.

I can't buy someone living in what is tantamount to Mordor without explaining how they manage to do so. Mordor imports food from the East; where does the people of the Brimstone Peninsula get theirs? This is something that needs to established when your setting is this far removed from anything relatable, otherwise the setting crumbles.

If you don't care about that, fine, more power to you, but some of us refuse to give GW our money for a setting with less thought put into it than the average fanfic.

shinros
23-06-2016, 01:10
They get food like normal people josh has explained it and they hunt and gather like normal people as per the black library books. All the important battles just happens in the magical area's. What else do you want? In Ayzerheim they have farmlands and trade to get food and such. Each realm is possibly the size of the old world or even bigger since they are described as "near infinite".

Normal people don't really live in those uber magical area's it's normally the "bad" guys want something there and the "good" guys go there to punch their faces in.

75hastings69
23-06-2016, 13:28
Can Josh please explain how they hunt or gather here..............



Unless wild flocks of bird berries and bread and water swans migrate daily above it?

Indeed the realms may be near infinite, but this is a city on an inaccessible floating rock, sustaining itself via the means of???

Captain Marius
23-06-2016, 13:52
Trade i expect! Likely to have one or more realmgates inside it as many settlements seem to.

Chikout
23-06-2016, 13:57
The floating islands are described in one of the campaign books as being somewhat sentient. The chains you can see may essentially be mooring posts. A migrating city could take its occupants to areas of the realm where food can be found. It may well be possible to land the city. It is of course very high fantasy, but it is not too different from ghibli's laputa.

Rogue Star
23-06-2016, 13:59
Can Josh please explain how they hunt or gather here..............

I think they're a little beyond basic agriculture since floating cities have never been mentioned in Ghyran before, and those are clearly Azyrite architecture... so the Stormcast Eternals and their followers not only managed to make landings into hostile, Nurgle-corrupted territory, but built truly gigantic golden cities and then raise them upon floating islands... so at this point "magic" isn't lazy so much as the only viable answer...

Spiney Norman
23-06-2016, 14:36
Can Josh please explain how they hunt or gather here..............



Unless wild flocks of bird berries and bread and water swans migrate daily above it?

Indeed the realms may be near infinite, but this is a city on an inaccessible floating rock, sustaining itself via the means of???

Is it so improbably to suppose there might be a realmgate in the city which they can use to go to another realm and bring food from there? Just because it is floating doesn't make it completely inaccessible. Are we even clear at this point that stormcast even need to eat, perhaps they just recharge or something.

As for food in the realm of aqshy, Khorne's followers are cannibals right? That would seem to answer that question...

Andnore
23-06-2016, 14:52
Is it so improbably to suppose there might be a realmgate in the city which they can use to go to another realm and bring food from there? Just because it is floating doesn't make it completely inaccessible. Are we even clear at this point that stormcast even need to eat, perhaps they just recharge or something.

As for food in the realm of aqshy, Khorne's followers are cannibals right? That would seem to answer that question...

What do the people that aren't cannibals eat? If you said that the Bloodbound eat cattle, I'd ask what kind of cattle, and what aformentioned cattle eat.

And shinros, with regards to Josh Reynolds, anything he says with regards to AoS is not considered canon:

Q: If Nagash can dominate the minds of his Mortarchs (as he did to Neferata in Balace of Power) why didn't he do that to Mannfred in the last audio? Why the inconsistency? A: I have no idea. You'll have to figure it out for yourself. I've been asked to stop answering questions related to GW/BL intellectual property on social media. I have also been asked to reiterate that my opinions are my own and in no way reflect the opinions and policies of Games Workshop or Black Library. Sorry.

http://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds

75hastings69
23-06-2016, 15:12
I........Are we even clear at this point that stormcast even need to eat, perhaps they just recharge or something....

But surely not every occupant of these cities are Sigmarines? surely not even Sigmar would create a Sigmarine to just do his Sigmarsmithing, or Sigmarcooking, or Sigmarlaundry, or even Sigmarplumbing. Surely someone has to eat sigmarsomething?

I guess realmgates are the easy answer, they pop through, pick up a sigmar and chips then pop back again, hundreds of thousands of times every day to feed the population.

If they do nip out for a kebab though couldn't something else come through the realmgate? doesn't seem very secure. Maybe there's just a McSigmar's in every city? and a Sigmarbucks, all staffed by Sigmarines, with more sigmarines gathering up the produce on the other side of the realmgate then bringing it back, where yet more sigmarines in a factory process all the sigmarfood?

Rogue Star
23-06-2016, 15:14
But surely not every occupant of these cities are Sigmarines? surely not even Sigmar would create a Sigmarine to just do his Sigmarsmithing, or Sigmarcooking, or Sigmarlaundry, or even Sigmarplumbing. Surely someone has to eat sigmarsomething?

I guess realmgates are the easy answer, they pop through, pick up a sigmar and chips then pop back again, hundreds of thousands of times every day to feed the population.

If they do nip out for a kebab though couldn't something else come through the realmgate? doesn't seem very secure. Maybe there's just a McSigmar's in every city? and a Sigmarbucks, all staffed by Sigmarines, with more sigmarines gathering up the produce on the other side of the realmgate then bringing it back, where yet more sigmarines in a factory process all the sigmarfood?

It's all in the Realm of Magic... any of that could be horrifyingly true...

Grimgold
23-06-2016, 16:51
Ignoring the ad-hominem "captain anti-joke", how am I being unreasonable when I ask for the setting to do something as basic as explain where people are getting their food from? I earlier quoted an excerpt from Magic the Gathering's guide to Jund, a rather similar setting to Aqshy, which actually went out of its way to establish how the world worked in basic details. I'm willing to buy silly things like the Orcs/Orks/Orruks reproducing via spores because it's an explanation for their enormous numbers AND lack of females. I'm willing to buy that people can live in the Necromundan Underhive because they explain HOW those people live down there. I can buy that there are Dwarves with mohawkes the size of their entire bodies looking for the last remnants of their good because they explain why they're doing that.

I can't buy someone living in what is tantamount to Mordor without explaining how they manage to do so. Mordor imports food from the East; where does the people of the Brimstone Peninsula get theirs? This is something that needs to established when your setting is this far removed from anything relatable, otherwise the setting crumbles.

If you don't care about that, fine, more power to you, but some of us refuse to give GW our money for a setting with less thought put into it than the average fanfic.

If a cannon answer is all you'll accept, why post your question here in the first place? Here is what I think, you moved the goal post when a reasonable answer was given, because you don't want a reasonable answer, you want to complain, which is completely at odds with your eff it I'm walking away attitude. Hey it's a free forum, complain away, just don't phrase it as a question and then get mad when people answer it. Also if you are frustrated enough with the setting to get churlish, just walk away, life is too short to spend time thinking about things that make you angry.

Folomo
23-06-2016, 16:52
So there is no cannon answer to his question? :confused:
If it is true, I am pretty sure the OP posted without knowing this.

Andnore
23-06-2016, 18:53
I'm not the OP, so Grimgold's accusation of me "moving the goalposts" seems rather misplaced. But no, there isn't an official, canon answer to the OP's questions. Which is my personal problem with the setting in general; holding GW to what is today industry standard, asking for a setting which doesn't require me to do more work than the fluff-writers, asking for a reason to care about this setting and why its worth fighting for - asking for any of that from the biggest actor in this business apparently makes me a horribly unreasonable git who only wants to hate on GW.

Shifte
23-06-2016, 19:46
Is it so improbably to suppose there might be a realmgate in the city which they can use to go to another realm and bring food from there? Just because it is floating doesn't make it completely inaccessible. Are we even clear at this point that stormcast even need to eat, perhaps they just recharge or something.

As for food in the realm of aqshy, Khorne's followers are cannibals right? That would seem to answer that question...

No. Pure cannibalism is unsustainable, for obvious reasons . If you start with 10,000,000,000,000 cannibals and all they eat is each other then you'll end up with 1 very lonely cannibal who dies of starvation.

I'm not being unreasonable in asking for a bit of information on how people survive in these places. Like I said in the OP, I am genuinely trying to give the setting a chance. This is a big hurdle for me and GW can definitely fix it.

Shifte
23-06-2016, 19:49
So there is no cannon answer to his question? :confused:
If it is true, I am pretty sure the OP posted without knowing this.

I'm the OP and I can confirm this.

I was hoping that future books or Black Library novels had answers to these questions and someone might be able to share it with me. I've only read book 1, which is the Unending Battles book (a longer title). I haven't bought anything else yet but both the Brimstone Penninsula and Obsidia Isle (in the Seraphon book, which I skimmed) really rubbed me the wrong way. I need to have an idea of what people are fighting over, so the ability to live on the territory you battle for is crucial to me. Setting is 75% of what attracts me to a game.

Silencio
23-06-2016, 20:00
I'm the OP and I can confirm this.
Setting is 75% of what attracts me to a game.

Then perhaps AoS is not for you? I too am a fluff player, which is why I can't get into AoS. To be honest, GW are never going to write good fluff, because:

a) They recruit for attitude rather than skill, and thus have unskilled (but friendly!) writers and editors.
b) The writers write for adolescent boys, as per company policy. Thus, no sex, no politics, no complexity.

Have you tried 9th Age? It is a huge project that is being developed for players by players, and has its own dedicated background team to develop its own world, which is young but promising. Even though it's been around for less than a year, it already has books with a higher writing quality than GW's. Furthermore, with thousands of players and the recent announcement of Avatars of War support, it seems that 9th Age has a bright future ahead of it.

StygianBeach
23-06-2016, 20:18
Then perhaps AoS is not for you? I too am a fluff player, which is why I can't get into AoS. To be honest, GW are never going to write good fluff, because:

a) They recruit for attitude rather than skill, and thus have unskilled (but friendly!) writers and editors.
b) The writers write for adolescent boys, as per company policy. Thus, no sex, no politics, no complexity.

Have you tried 9th Age? It is a huge project that is being developed for players by players, and has its own dedicated background team to develop its own world, which is young but promising. Even though it's been around for less than a year, it already has books with a higher writing quality than GW's. Furthermore, with thousands of players and the recent announcement of Avatars of War support, it seems that 9th Age has a bright future ahead of it.

Which 9th Age books have a higher quality of writing than GW's?

So far, what I have read of the 9th Age stuff is good, but I would not rate it as better than GW's.

GW's 6th ed Tomb Kings book is pretty good, so is the 6th ed Bretonnia book.

Silencio
23-06-2016, 20:25
Which 9th Age books have a higher quality of writing than GW's?

So far, what I have read of the 9th Age stuff is good, but I would not rate it as better than GW's.

GW's 6th ed Tomb Kings book is pretty good, so is the 6th ed Bretonnia book.
When compared to the Realmgate Wars books, the Sylvan Elves and Undying Dynasties books are superior. They have more conciseness, more consistency, more complexity, more restraint, a less marketing-oriented tone, and their being written in the first person rather than a third person sometimes-omniscient-sometimes-not viewpoint allows a more complete immersion into the setting. The names for things also sounds like names people in the setting would actually use, rather than Starfyre Stormcrusher Razorblast Smashhammers.

StygianBeach
23-06-2016, 20:51
When compared to the Realmgate Wars books, the Sylvan Elves and Undying Dynasties books are superior. They have more conciseness, more consistency, more complexity, more restraint, a less marketing-oriented tone, and their being written in the first person rather than a third person sometimes-omniscient-sometimes-not viewpoint allows a more complete immersion into the setting. The names for things also sounds like names people in the setting would actually use, rather than Starfyre Stormcrusher Razorblast Smashhammers.

You read the Realmgate books? I am impressed by your dedication.

So, a more accurate statement would be that two 9th Age books are better then GW's Realmgate books?

Silencio
23-06-2016, 20:53
You read the Realmgate books? I am impressed by your dedication.

So, a more accurate statement would be that two 9th Age books are better then GW's Realmgate books?

I skimmed them. It really doesn't take much to see how bad they are.

And yes, I should have said that the 9th Age books are better than GW's RECENT books.

shinros
23-06-2016, 22:22
Can Josh please explain how they hunt or gather here..............



Unless wild flocks of bird berries and bread and water swans migrate daily above it?

Indeed the realms may be near infinite, but this is a city on an inaccessible floating rock, sustaining itself via the means of???

You are aware there are realm gates that they can use for trade and such? They have been setting up colonies and cities and securing the realm gates that is also another point of the realm gate wars series. So sigmar can get his armies around and supplies etc. Plus the cities are placed in ghyran of all places and like dalaran from WOW I suspect they have teleporting magic to get below ground for anything. Plus they have flying mounts what else do you want? If you don't like it don't play it don't read it. End of story. The stories in the campaign books are decades between each other. Plus they are in realms of heavy magic and considering sigmar is active it would not be hard for him to set up a floating city of all things.

If mages in world of warcraft can do it I am sure wizards of warhammer and a god should not have much trouble.

With mannfred if you pay attention Nagash is trying to prove a point and Neferata ALLOWED nagash to speak through her.

Seriously whats the point of this topic anymore? People have their answers they are not satisfied let's move on with our lives. Life is too short to be constantly worrying over a setting dealing with plastic toy soldiers. If people like the 9th age setting so much play it don't play AOS that's it. Support the thing you love and don't support the thing you are not interested in. Simple.

Silencio
23-06-2016, 23:24
If you just skim something don't bother asking questions if you can't be bothered to read the information the fact that you skimmed it when you have the book in front of you shows you lack interest in the subject. If you lack interest why are you asking questions? Why should we care to answer them if you already dislike it or don't care for it? Move on with your life.

Seriously whats the point of this topic anymore? People have their answers they are not satisfied let's move on with our lives. Life is too short to be constantly worrying over a setting dealing with plastic toy soldiers. If people like the 9th age setting so much play it don't play AOS that's it. Support the thing you love and don't support the thing you are not interested in. Simple.

You must be confusing me with someone else; I haven't asked any questions about AoS in this thread, or anywhere, ever.

Simply, someone had misgivings about AoS, and I suggested that this may mean that AoS isn't for them.

shinros
23-06-2016, 23:58
You must be confusing me with someone else; I haven't asked any questions about AoS in this thread, or anywhere, ever.

Simply, someone had misgivings about AoS, and I suggested that this may mean that AoS isn't for them.

Ok fair enough I may have jumped the gun a bit I will re do my post. Still how can you tell if's something is good or not or truly give an opinion about something why something is for them if you barely read the subject at hand? You know what forget not going to bother with the discussion in general. People have their opinions.

Choombatta
24-06-2016, 00:11
I'm the OP and I can confirm this.

I was hoping that future books or Black Library novels had answers to these questions and someone might be able to share it with me. I've only read book 1, which is the Unending Battles book (a longer title). I haven't bought anything else yet but both the Brimstone Penninsula and Obsidia Isle (in the Seraphon book, which I skimmed) really rubbed me the wrong way. I need to have an idea of what people are fighting over, so the ability to live on the territory you battle for is crucial to me. Setting is 75% of what attracts me to a game.

You need to at least read Godbeasts, as it will give you more insight into those areas.
For instance, the Brimstone Peninsula is only a tiny part of the east coast of The Scarred Isle. It is not an "active volcano" nor a self-enclosed area. It is a peninsula. There is the entire remainder of The Scarred Isle to be fleshed out. As far as I know, most populations that live on a peninsula use fishing for a good portion of their sustenance and trade. Why would this be any different? The oceans are not made of lava.
I understand in the Old World, you did not need to go into detail because it was easy to assume that human men had farms and such.
Why is it suddenly implausible to assume that human men in the AoS world could fish?
Why does it not need to be spelled out in detail for one, but must for the other?

Just because the new world is alien, does not mean behavior must be alien also.

The bearded one
24-06-2016, 04:20
You need to at least read Godbeasts, as it will give you more insight into those areas.
For instance, the Brimstone Peninsula is only a tiny part of the east coast of The Scarred Isle. It is not an "active volcano" nor a self-enclosed area. It is a peninsula. There is the entire remainder of The Scarred Isle to be fleshed out. As far as I know, most populations that live on a peninsula use fishing for a good portion of their sustenance and trade. Why would this be any different? The oceans are not made of lava.
I understand in the Old World, you did not need to go into detail because it was easy to assume that human men had farms and such.
Why is it suddenly implausible to assume that human men in the AoS world could fish?
Why does it not need to be spelled out in detail for one, but must for the other?

Just because the new world is alien, does not mean behavior must be alien also.

Because the water on the map looks really sickly, while the rivers that feed into the water are lava, and there's geysers spewing blood: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/darkelf_stalker/17253451/809815/809815_original.jpg

Suspension of disbelief was immeasurably easier because in the old world they lived on grasslands and in forests.


The notable outlier (the chaos wastes) elicited constant questions as to how survival and population growth was possible (there's probably a dozen threads about that in the background section).

DYoung
24-06-2016, 06:30
No. Pure cannibalism is unsustainable, for obvious reasons . If you start with 10,000,000,000,000 cannibals and all they eat is each other then you'll end up with 1 very lonely cannibal who dies of starvation.

I'm not being unreasonable in asking for a bit of information on how people survive in these places. Like I said in the OP, I am genuinely trying to give the setting a chance. This is a big hurdle for me and GW can definitely fix it.

Just gonna preface this by saying I haven't read the books and don't know anything about the AoS world as they're rather costly and judging by the quality of all the other books I've got from GW recently, will be absolute rubbish.

I was under the impression that these cannibals were constantly raiding other people (who presumably farm/hunt/whatever) and either recruiting or eating them? Obviously there wouldn't be many left if they only ate each other.

Said raiding would also seem like a good reason to send in the Sigmarines and wipe them out to me. Hence the need for an impregnable fortress in the middle of a volcano or whatever.

I don't see any problems with this storyline in a Warhammer type setting. That said, I'm sure the writing is terrible and you're likely justified in judging it harshly.

R Man
24-06-2016, 09:00
Because the water on the map looks really sickly, while the rivers that feed into the water are lava, and there's geysers spewing blood: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/darkelf_stalker/17253451/809815/809815_original.jpg

Suspension of disbelief was immeasurably easier because in the old world they lived on grasslands and in forests.


The notable outlier (the chaos wastes) elicited constant questions as to how survival and population growth was possible (there's probably a dozen threads about that in the background section).

I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to drink the water there. If I had to visit (not that I'd want to) I would definitely use bottled water.

Gorthor21
24-06-2016, 10:16
Judging by the name I would say that the seas around the brimestone peninsula are sulfurous to go along with the realm of fire themes. One has to remember that all of this is a post-apocalyptic setting in which the forces of order are striving to bring civilization back to the realms which were ravaged by the deprivations of Chaos.

I own the first two age of Sigmar books and I can say they arnt as high quality as the 6th edition army books but neither were any of the seventh or eighth edition books either. Most of those were just rehashed from sixth edition. Aside from that I still enjoy the age of Sigmar writing. I wouldn't say anything I have ever read associated with Games Workshop has ever been that good a quality as some make them out to be. At the end of the day it's about making a backdrop for a game that is used to sell toy soldiers.

Denny
24-06-2016, 11:01
Because the water on the map looks really sickly, while the rivers that feed into the water are lava, and there's geysers spewing blood.

They you go then. There is a limitless source of delicious blood. Black pudding for all!

Folomo
24-06-2016, 13:03
I have read some 40K books tha I have found quite good. I specially like the Tanith First and Only series, from Dan abnett

Geep
24-06-2016, 16:05
Can the realmgate portals open to anywhere, or does one portal go to one place?
If the chaos guys on magma island are relying on a realmgate portal to actually live, they'll be encountering very bad times when their victims decide to wall it up. I think I'd find the setting amusing if people could make Stargate 'iris' type constructions :p

R Man
24-06-2016, 23:04
They you go then. There is a limitless source of delicious blood. Black pudding for all!

I hope they provide a vegetarian option.

eron12
25-06-2016, 01:55
Can the realmgate portals open to anywhere, or does one portal go to one place?
If the chaos guys on magma island are relying on a realmgate portal to actually live, they'll be encountering very bad times when their victims decide to wall it up. I think I'd find the setting amusing if people could make Stargate 'iris' type constructions :p

+1 for the Stargate reference and another +1 for probably putting more thought into it than GW did.