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Herkamer63
09-06-2016, 05:58
I had a chance to check out the new Space Marine FAQS that went up on Facebook a few hours ago. Not without controversy, but good information to have when we're assembling our angels of death. Not a complete list, but I figured after this, I'll let you guys post up what stood out to you.

The first one is in regards to the mixture Chapter Tactics. It is now clear different Chapter Tactics from other SM armies, both within this codex and others that have their own, being used in single squads cannot be used. For example, White Scars cannot benefit from Iron Hands CT. Likewise with IH not benefiting from WS. Both CT rules are nullified if they are in a single squad(s). Which means no more Super Friends list. Good riddance, I say. No more bike squads that are hard to kill. It got out of hand, so this was a nice balance for otherwise ridiculous squad combos.

Drop pods are next, and it's an interesting one. If the model's doors are closed, it blocks line of sight. Now, I think it can benefit both parties here, depending on the circumstances. Drop pod assault now has some of it's teeth back when fighting an army that has spammed interceptor. So yeah, against Tau, as long as they don't have smart missiles out the butt, marine squads will be much safer. I understand riptides, ghostkeels, or anything with big guns can destroy the drop pods and make them blow up and hit the units inside, but the key is you HAVE to destroy them if you want a crack at the marines hiding behind them. Here's the flip side: marine units have to move around the pods to see and shoot/assault the enemy unit. That unit can move, or be out of range, or what have you. I'm not upset by this because I think this was also a balance we were just shown.

On the SM armies inside the codex: Templars are slightly better, kind of. Helbrecht's bonus attacks stack, and if anyone who has plasma fails their Gets hot save within their squad, they gain rage. Interesting way of gaining rules, but no crusader squads in Gladius Strike Force. Oh well. Raven Guard cannot use the Kauyon book formations unless you're playing that book. Not a shocker, but good to know (Same goes to WS). Salamanders cannot get their 4+ FnP against baleflamers (that's poopy, but it makes sense, I guess). Finally, armies with the CT special rule are the only ones that can use Combat Doctrines, so basically no to vehicles, except Dreads.

Some misc. stuff: One relic only on a guy, librarians know both daemonology disciplines, and yes, Centurions can ride in Drop pods (actual question in the FAQ). So on this note, I'll stop it right here. What stood out to you, and your thoughts on it?

MajorWesJanson
09-06-2016, 07:13
The drop pod ruling is a mistake. Doors counting as part of the model means they are massive area denial tools now.
Not letting Templars use Crusader squads in formations is a pain, since they don't bother to give Templars any formations or detachments of their own.
Superfriends being nerfed? Awesome.
One relic per model? I've not argued it that way, but always ran one one relic per model in my lists.
Chapter Master upgrade to captain in formations is allowed, with a paragraph trying to make you feel guilty for doing it. Fair enough.
Iron Hands vehicles DO get IWND, not just dreadnoughts. Score one for that, since that is how it was before. Bit annoying to see IH get cheesier, since I have been running as an IH sucessor since I started in 4th (Scions of Mars and Suffer Not the Alien (Eldar) traits) but that ruling was consistent with 6th.

Too bad they didn't errata Fulmination, Geokinesis, and Technomancy to be BRB/everybody powers, and made just Librarius SM specific rather than all 4.

williamsond
09-06-2016, 09:01
For me the drop pods are the issues of most contention from this FAQ, why they just didn't say doors don't count for line of sight blocking or as part of the vehicle is beyond me drop pods are now open to so much abuse and/or problematic play.

One other thing that surprised me was the ruling about tunderfire cannons and direct fire, I could understand the barrage scatter rules being used if you're firing indirect but if you can see the target and you're firing direct I'm not sure why you should be forced to use a barrage rule. We've never played that way in the past, we always played you could chose how to fire the weapon regular rolling to scatter for each shot or as a group rolling once and then barraging.

I am happy to see the death of super friends though with mixed chapter tactics that always irked the fluffy player in me and the clarification of the iron hands chapter tactics makes a lot of sense too.

Mandragola
09-06-2016, 09:30
On the TFC I'm not surprised. Barrage weapons are barrage weapons. The fact that they can see their target doesn't mean they operate in a different way, it just means that they are more accurate because they can see where they are aiming. The shots still go up in the air and fall down again.

Otherwise honestly the drop pod door thing is the only surprise. It's a silly thing. Honestly I think drop pods shouldn't even be units at all, just terrain pieces once deployed. But it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that an objective is secured because there's a door lying on the ground nearby.

In general I'm pleased to see superfriends go, and happy that it's gone. It will mean that I can't have my white scars librarian with the ignore cover eye join my imperial fist devastator centurions any more, as they will lose tank hunter :(

Arijharn
09-06-2016, 09:47
Honestly, some of these FAQs are stupid. Not because GW is finally doing them, no, that's good. They're stupid because people are asking questions that have already been answered in the actual book, whether they like the answer or not.



The first one is in regards to the mixture Chapter Tactics. It is now clear different Chapter Tactics from other SM armies, both within this codex and others that have their own, being used in single squads cannot be used. For example, White Scars cannot benefit from Iron Hands CT. Likewise with IH not benefiting from WS. Both CT rules are nullified if they are in a single squad(s). Which means no more Super Friends list. Good riddance, I say. No more bike squads that are hard to kill. It got out of hand, so this was a nice balance for otherwise ridiculous squad combos.

To be fair, this wasn't really 'new' in regards to White Scars and Iron Hands. It specifically spells out that you can't do this in the actual book. It's interesting though that they've nerfed it though in with Space Wolves and Blood Angels etc, etc but honestly I think it is a good direction since nobody was really happy with it anyway.

As to the Salamanders and Baleflamer one, that wasn't so much a change but rather an explanation. Baleflamers isn't actually listed under flamer weapons under the rules. For the same reason, you can now use Baleflamers to roast Avatars! (do Eldar players even know they still have Avatars?)


Drop pods are next, and it's an interesting one. If the model's doors are closed, it blocks line of sight. Now, I think it can benefit both parties here, depending on the circumstances. Drop pod assault now has some of it's teeth back when fighting an army that has spammed interceptor. So yeah, against Tau, as long as they don't have smart missiles out the butt, marine squads will be much safer. I understand riptides, ghostkeels, or anything with big guns can destroy the drop pods and make them blow up and hit the units inside, but the key is you HAVE to destroy them if you want a crack at the marines hiding behind them. Here's the flip side: marine units have to move around the pods to see and shoot/assault the enemy unit. That unit can move, or be out of range, or what have you. I'm not upset by this because I think this was also a balance we were just shown.

I kinda think this is silly too, although it is logically consistent. Although I have also seen people ask where you measure from for purposes of disembarkation. I thought that was a question devoid of common sense personally but whatever. Also, you can't destroy the drop pod before the marines disembark, because interceptor happens officially at the end of the movement phase (pg167) so the marines would have to disembark before that happens.

A.T.
09-06-2016, 10:32
There is a lot of push-back against the pod ruling on facebook. Justified IMO - they measuring from the doors would create vast areas of objective secured and combined with the change to grenades (which I hope is also redacted) gives marines absurd benefits in claiming and holding objectives.
How does an immobile, unmanned, 'crashed' drop pod even hold objectives anyway.

Templars got kicked around but not in any new or unexpected ways, all of their FAQ questions were along the lines of 'can we use the core formation from our own codex' (no), 'can we use our signature unit in formations?' (no), 'can we use cenobytes without our opponent pointing and sniggering?' (no), etc. But the answers were accurately rules as written.

But they did at least shut down some potential points of argument over saves vs grav guns, chapter tactics, and so on. If not for the pods I don't think this would have raised too many eyebrows, at least on first reading.

Mandragola
09-06-2016, 11:31
Honestly, some of these FAQs are stupid. Not because GW is finally doing them, no, that's good. They're stupid because people are asking questions that have already been answered in the actual book, whether they like the answer or not.

Well kind of. Actually that's a fairly reasonable thing for a FAQ to do for rules that aren't clear. I agree that some of the things that have been clarified might seem obvious, but I don't think this stuff does any harm. The exception to that is where the clarification is wrong, like how the BRB FAQ directly contradicting the rules in the BRB.

Fen
09-06-2016, 11:47
There is a lot of push-back against the pod ruling on facebook. Justified IMO - they measuring from the doors would create vast areas of objective secured and combined with the change to grenades (which I hope is also redacted) gives marines absurd benefits in claiming and holding objectives.
And out of that they have already changed...The apothecary one.

There is an answer where they say to consider it a no.



FFS.

Beppo1234
09-06-2016, 13:25
And out of that they have already changed...The apothecary one.




never understood why they took options away from the apothecary in the first place, was happy they gave them back, and am now confused as to why they took them away... if anything, an apothecary is superior to a veteran and should get what they get + the additional apothecary wargear (obviously depending on free hands)

A.T.
09-06-2016, 13:31
And out of that they have already changed...The apothecary one.
There is an answer where they say to consider it a no.They also earlier changed the grav one - it's why they re-uploaded the pictures.

Saunders
09-06-2016, 14:50
I can understand the Apothecary change, because they have a specialized role and their own set of wargear to reflect it.

williamsond
09-06-2016, 15:11
well its a good job i didn't glue a storm shield on yet...

Charistoph
09-06-2016, 19:45
The drop pod ruling is a mistake. Doors counting as part of the model means they are massive area denial tools now.


For me the drop pods are the issues of most contention from this FAQ, why they just didn't say doors don't count for line of sight blocking or as part of the vehicle is beyond me drop pods are now open to so much abuse and/or problematic play.

Drop Pod doors have always been part of the model, just like Wings on a Daemon Prince. Wings can still block Line of Sight, why shouldn't the Doors? However, Wings cannot be used to measure to and from the Daemon Prince itself. Measuring to and from a Vehicle is using the Hull. The FAQ wasn't clear if they are to be included as part of the Hull for measuring.

If they are, yes, they are a huge area denial without Charging, and yes, you can be VERY far away from the central part of the Drop Pod when you Disembark. BUT, it also means they are VERY likely to Mishap or to be taking a Dangerous Terrain Test.

So, take your pick which way you want it, but be aware of the consequences.

Abbadonsrighthand
09-06-2016, 20:03
I thought it was a good FAQ but now gw please don't screw up the chaos marines one and remove the ability for typhus to turn daemonkin cultists into zombies :p

Herkamer63
09-06-2016, 20:14
Drop Pod doors have always been part of the model, just like Wings on a Daemon Prince. Wings can still block Line of Sight, why shouldn't the Doors? However, Wings cannot be used to measure to and from the Daemon Prince itself. Measuring to and from a Vehicle is using the Hull. The FAQ wasn't clear if they are to be included as part of the Hull for measuring.

If they are, yes, they are a huge area denial without Charging, and yes, you can be VERY far away from the central part of the Drop Pod when you Disembark. BUT, it also means they are VERY likely to Mishap or to be taking a Dangerous Terrain Test.

So, take your pick which way you want it, but be aware of the consequences.

This. It just adds more to the meaning of True Line of Sight. Can't see it, can't shoot it. I'll admit the FAQs could have clarified better, but this is the first draft. As I mentioned earlier, consequences happen both ways, and the point you made is valid.

Charistoph
09-06-2016, 21:10
Yeah, some of the responses posted brought up those same points, too. A simple one word answer don't explain very much, like why the Apothecary can/cannot take Special Weapons.

It's also a hammer
09-06-2016, 22:10
Yeah, some of the responses posted brought up those same points, too. A simple one word answer don't explain very much, like why the Apothecary can/cannot take Special Weapons.

So what is the rule on this as I'm not on Facebook so kinda rely on threads like this for updates.

Beppo1234
09-06-2016, 22:22
So what is the rule on this as I'm not on Facebook so kinda rely on threads like this for updates.

once you upgrade a command squad vet to apothecary, it loses access to armory options as it is technically no longer a a command squad vet

It's also a hammer
10-06-2016, 07:24
once you upgrade a command squad vet to apothecary, it loses access to armory options as it is technically no longer a a command squad vet

What!!!! Does that work for company standard as well? So they can only have bolt pistol and chainsword?

Cybtroll
10-06-2016, 10:49
Yes and that's even more complicated when you have (like the DA) options for a Terminator Apothecary that have a storm bolter and nothing more. If I understand the FAQ correctly, now those Apothecary may be the one with a Flamer, or Cyclone Missile.

It's also a hammer
10-06-2016, 16:23
Yes and that's even more complicated when you have (like the DA) options for a Terminator Apothecary that have a storm bolter and nothing more. If I understand the FAQ correctly, now those Apothecary may be the one with a Flamer, or Cyclone Missile.

So now I have to choose between 5+ FnP and re-rolling morale tests or special/melee weapons? Makes Honour guard almost a defacto choice to accompany a chapter master!

Charistoph
10-06-2016, 17:25
So what is the rule on this as I'm not on Facebook so kinda rely on threads like this for updates.

A commentary posted by Warhammer 40,000 updated the answer to "no". As in, they cannot take Special Weapons, etc, that are options for the other models.

Without stating the reason for that "no" doesn't help much when you consider things like the Wolf Scout Pack Leader who can get the Camo Cloak before becoming the Pack Leader, when reading it from top down. Is it because of the last check to make sure the model doesn't have any options they are entitled to? Does the Wargear reset to the default when upgraded? Is it a top down order of operations so that what comes first affects every option after that?

Draconis
10-06-2016, 17:39
never understood why they took options away from the apothecary in the first place, was happy they gave them back, and am now confused as to why they took them away... if anything, an apothecary is superior to a veteran and should get what they get + the additional apothecary wargear (obviously depending on free hands)

They never gave them back. They put a reply in the comments stating it was a mistake and was meant to be a no from the start.

Beppo1234
11-06-2016, 13:46
They never gave them back. They put a reply in the comments stating it was a mistake and was meant to be a no from the start.

still don't understand why they took options away from them in the first place?