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Panzerkanzler
12-06-2016, 11:21
I'm entertaining a somewhat weak fancy of returning to 40k after some 10-12 years away from it. I have no books and no miniatures for it. I've watched a few battlereports but have a few questions to you good folk.

1) I don't fancy that many GW minis but like a few from FW. I'm specifically thinking of Emperors Children or some of the other specific Chaos legions. They are sorted under something called "Horus Heresy". I know the some of the fluff for the heresy but have no idea whether or not I can use those minis in a regular 40k game.

2) Chaos Marines. These are the guys I'm most interested in. But I'm interested in their specific legions. GW seems to mostly promote Khorne, are there interesting GW rules/units for Emeprors Children? Concerning their rules, is CSM a strong, medium or **** army in the ranking of powercreep?

3) I REALLY dislike superheavies and flyers. In my opinion they don't really belong in a 40k game. I understand different areas have different play styles but is it possible to generally make a statement about how common superheavies anf flyers are?

4) Balance. The lack of balance has been a flaw in 40k for a long time but I have no idea how the current rules and codices are. How is the balance these days?

5) Skitarii. Are they a real supported army? I'd hate to maybe buy them and then see them getting squatted.

6) Tactics. In most battlereports the two players pretty much fill their deployment zone with a gazillion dudes and then they roll buckets of dice and remove several handfuls of minis at a time. I exaggerate somewhat but is there an interesting tactical element in 40k despite the overcrowded (in the battlereports I've seen, I haven't played 40k in well over a decade) tables?

Tokamak
12-06-2016, 11:56
1) Yes you can. They're still space marines and all that varies is the age of their armour. You can see that modern marines still carry bits and pieces of old armour as well. Horus Heresy depicts marine legions from before and during Chaos corruption.However, to get the most out of Horus Heresy you would have to take a look at Forgeworld's Emperor's Children (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy?N=102581+4294966025&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=8&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat2210033).

2) Yes GW has 40k Emperor's Children (Slaanesh) models. Chaos isn't doing well in the meta.

3) Superheavies have become very common. They're just a really cheap and quick way to bulk up your army.

4) A giant mess.

5) Yes, keep in mind that these days armies are allowed to mix and match everything and Skitarii have the lore to be tacked on to any human force (loyalist or not). You're not just looking at Skitarri but also Cult Mechanicus and Imperial Knights when it comes to cohesive miniatures.

6) That depends entirely on the armies in the battle report. Youtube has increasingly improving battle report videos. I like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5nlbzhQNog

Panzerkanzler
12-06-2016, 15:06
1) Yes you can. They're still space marines and all that varies is the age of their armour. You can see that modern marines still carry bits and pieces of old armour as well. Horus Heresy depicts marine legions from before and during Chaos corruption.However, to get the most out of Horus Heresy you would have to take a look at Forgeworld's Emperor's Children (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy?N=102581+4294966025&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=8&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat2210033).

Thank you for your answers! So those units, as per your link to the FW website, are usable in ordinary 40k games? Because as I understand their rules are found in FW books, not GW books, right? The minis look dead sexy and in my opinion the GW minis don't even come close.

MagicHat
12-06-2016, 15:20
1) 30K is different from 40K, and although there is no glaring rules mismatch, they were not intended to play against each other. It will be up to the players you face off against in the end, some are perfectly okay with it, others aren't.

2) Noise marines, although I don't think they are Emperors Children specific anymore. Chaos is considered pretty poor right now.

3) In my club, superheavies and flyers are fairly common.

4) The newer codicies can put up a fight if you take the strongest list, while the rest falls behind.

5) Hell yes. Skitarii with Cult Mechanicus covers all the basics you need, save for speedy redeployment. They are rumoured to gain a new codex as well.

6) I personally do not recognize the crowdedness you talk about. There is plenty of benefits from using line of sight blocking, screening, movement and so on. Not the most tactical game I suppose, but there are more things to do then placing down the models and rolling dice.

Tokamak
12-06-2016, 16:13
Thank you for your answers! So those units, as per your link to the FW website, are usable in ordinary 40k games? Because as I understand their rules are found in FW books, not GW books, right? The minis look dead sexy and in my opinion the GW minis don't even come close.

You can't directly use FW rules in 40k (though most tournaments allow it) you'll have to discuss it with your opponent. However, most of those miniatures have clear 40k counterparts whose rules you can use for them.

Fangschrecken
13-06-2016, 00:38
I think the best thing to do is go down to your local GW or other game store and check out how lively the scene is and how the game is played. You might find that there's a nearby club that does Horus Heresy Games and with the new Betrayal at Calth boxed set it's reasonably easy to get into that. It would also be good to know if the local scene encourages super heavies or not. If my club had lots of super heavies I probably wouldn't play as much as I do, but to each their own.

Casper Hawser
13-06-2016, 10:10
You can't directly use FW rules in 40k (though most tournaments allow it) you'll have to discuss it with your opponent. However, most of those miniatures have clear 40k counterparts whose rules you can use for them.

I was under the impression that forge world models since 6th edition have been officially sanctioned for use in any 40k game. Tournaments have the right to not allow them just like they can stop any unit being allowed in their tournament.
On topic I use my 30k World Eaters legion in 40k and 30k games sometimes I'll use the legion books and other times I'll use the chaos marine codex and imperial armour 13 which has rules for forge worlds chaos and heresy units that can be used in 40k.
I think Fangschrecken right you need to check out your local scene.


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Latro_
13-06-2016, 10:33
I'm entertaining a somewhat weak fancy of returning to 40k after some 10-12 years away from it. I have no books and no miniatures for it. I've watched a few battlereports but have a few questions to you good folk.

1) I don't fancy that many GW minis but like a few from FW. I'm specifically thinking of Emperors Children or some of the other specific Chaos legions. They are sorted under something called "Horus Heresy". I know the some of the fluff for the heresy but have no idea whether or not I can use those minis in a regular 40k game.

2) Chaos Marines. These are the guys I'm most interested in. But I'm interested in their specific legions. GW seems to mostly promote Khorne, are there interesting GW rules/units for Emeprors Children? Concerning their rules, is CSM a strong, medium or **** army in the ranking of powercreep?

3) I REALLY dislike superheavies and flyers. In my opinion they don't really belong in a 40k game. I understand different areas have different play styles but is it possible to generally make a statement about how common superheavies anf flyers are?

4) Balance. The lack of balance has been a flaw in 40k for a long time but I have no idea how the current rules and codices are. How is the balance these days?

5) Skitarii. Are they a real supported army? I'd hate to maybe buy them and then see them getting squatted.

6) Tactics. In most battlereports the two players pretty much fill their deployment zone with a gazillion dudes and then they roll buckets of dice and remove several handfuls of minis at a time. I exaggerate somewhat but is there an interesting tactical element in 40k despite the overcrowded (in the battlereports I've seen, I haven't played 40k in well over a decade) tables?


You can use forgeworld models generally interchangeably with normal 40k ones, a marine is a marine is a marine. Generally you wont find much issue anywhere using them.

Chaos are not the most competitive out there. Generally Eldar are top, then tau, vanilla space marines and probably necrons. Sounds like you like the EC horus heresy aesthetic. You could collect them paint them pre-heresy and just use the standard marine codex + the angels of death supplement which has made them very powerful of late. You could proxy sonic weapons as grav weapons without much chargrin from anyone i'd imagine.

superheavies and flyers are pretty standard (especially eldar/imperial knights), in pick up and play games though certainly in my club we make gentlemens agreements as to if superheavies are involved before organising a game

There is no real balance, it all kinda went out the window with the eldar codex a few years ago then the introduction of formations and super formations known as detachments which add to the balance issues. Thats not to say its not still 'fun' even if you face up against an army you know before you deply you are gonna loose, those epic moments are still there. e.g i played a game at a tournament a few weeks ago agains 45 warp spiders and 2 wraith knights... i know i had no chance but i had a unit of chaos bikes hold up these knights against the odds for ages it was amazing. If everyone themed their armies a bit more and playe to the fluff it'd be a great game and there are players ut there like this.

Fairly new army, very doubtful it'll be squatted anytime soon

Games generally involve more models or can do owing to the generally standard 1850pt game, formations offering cheap units and the cost of your basic trooper going down over the years. Super heavies and some units are very expensive so in my experience armies are generally fairly small especially on the tournament circuit. You could meet a guy whos army is 5 imperial knights or 150+ ork boyz... the gap can be that wide.

A.T.
13-06-2016, 11:03
I was under the impression that forge world models since 6th edition have been officially sanctioned for use in any 40k game.The 40k-stamped forgeworld rules are officially sanctioned, the 30k rules are officially written without any consideration for how they interact with 40k rules and armies.

So for instance 30k might release a virus type weapon that was only a threat to non-cybernetic/daemonic units in non-sealed armour (i.e. cultists) for a fraction of its value in a 40k game.

Similarly weapons, units, equipment that cost more or less in 30k than identical stuff in 40k. And yes I know that this already happens with a lot of 40k/forgeworld stuff but with the 30k units it is more deliberate.

carlisimo
13-06-2016, 19:38
You’ll want to read up on the weapons that the Horus Heresy models are carrying, because some might not exist in 40k or they’re available to squads in different proportions (or they do different things, like HH graviton weapons and 40k grav-guns). The easiest thing to do, and best if you’re new to the game, is to find rules in the Chaos Space Marine codex for any Horus Heresy model you buy.

There’s a decent chance that the next Chaos Space Marine codex will try harder to accommodate HH models. Hopefully it also restores some balance. Shouldn’t be too long.

It’s not a very tactical game, though, especially as the games get larger and there’s less and less space to maneuver. If that’s what you’re looking for, I’d suggest you check out the defunct 6mm version of 40k, Epic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbdKBovf9wLb8g_Vka2ntlTzvkFZ1_9VFqLvfAoCda8/pub). Probably a bad idea because miniatures and opponents are hard to find, but it was as tactical as 40k ever got.

Tokamak
14-06-2016, 17:24
Yeah the Emperor's Children Cataphoni are just Noise Marines in 40k.

Charistoph
14-06-2016, 20:34
Thank you for your answers! So those units, as per your link to the FW website, are usable in ordinary 40k games? Because as I understand their rules are found in FW books, not GW books, right? The minis look dead sexy and in my opinion the GW minis don't even come close.

Forgeworld is a Games Workshop company, so all of their books are GW books, officially speaking. However there are some people that do not take to them thinking they are overpowered. FW is not really overpowered, they tend to be just powerful and overpriced for the most part (exceptions still exist). There have been several units transitioned from Forgeworld to Citadel where they either stayed the same or got more powerful, and always were made cheaper.


1) 30K is different from 40K, and although there is no glaring rules mismatch, they were not intended to play against each other. It will be up to the players you face off against in the end, some are perfectly okay with it, others aren't.

This is very true. You will hear a lot of people tout the "balance" of 30K over 40K, but most of that comes from the rough equivalent of all but a couple armies being a variant of Space Marine.

In addition to that, the pricing of units is very differently scaled with 30K units versus 40K units. In many 30K units, they start expensive, but adding models to the squads is relatively cheap. For example a 40K Tactical Squad may start at 5 times the cost of each individual Space Marine for the starting 5, but for the 30K Squad, you pay 15 times for the starting 10.

If that wasn't enough differences, the 40K Tactical Squad starts with a Sergeant who can get gear and an upgrade, and a Marine or two can take a Special or Heavy Weapon. The 30K Squad starts with the upgraded Sergeant, but only the Sergeant can change out his gear for exotic weapons. But also, the 30K Tactical Squad

So it is a very different way of thinking through your army lists.

They CAN work against 40K lists, but usually on the higher points levels where the starting squad point levels aren't as much of a hinderance. Then of course, there are the Primarchs...

The Black Shield
14-06-2016, 21:08
For using Forge World rules, one of the most important things to remember is to have the rules with you. This prevents accusations of making up rules or cheating. If you want to know more about the background of the Heresy try reading the novels. Most are really good and a few are so-so.

Tokamak
14-06-2016, 21:11
Yes can highly recommend the novels. I wasn't interested in 30k, or 40k for that matter until I read the novels. The novels will also really spice up each legion and really lets you understand what they're all about. There's really strong concepts and character woven into each legion.

Like, sure the Emperor's Children have beautiful miniatures, but if you don't understand who Fulgrim is then they'll just remain beautiful miniatures and nothing more. I used to dislike the Iron Warriors, thought they were a lame concept with a lame colour scheme, but then it turned out that Perturabo is one of the most fascinating primarchs.

Panzerkanzler
16-06-2016, 11:39
Yes can highly recommend the novels. I wasn't interested in 30k, or 40k for that matter until I read the novels. The novels will also really spice up each legion and really lets you understand what they're all about. There's really strong concepts and character woven into each legion.

Like, sure the Emperor's Children have beautiful miniatures, but if you don't understand who Fulgrim is then they'll just remain beautiful miniatures and nothing more. I used to dislike the Iron Warriors, thought they were a lame concept with a lame colour scheme, but then it turned out that Perturabo is one of the most fascinating primarchs.

I'll do that. But I've learnt over the years that I tend to stick with what I like the look of and what I like to paint. Fluff is important but for me it comes second after the looks. I'll look into the books. Is it possible to read just some of them and still enjoy them?

Charistoph
16-06-2016, 17:57
I'll do that. But I've learnt over the years that I tend to stick with what I like the look of and what I like to paint. Fluff is important but for me it comes second after the looks. I'll look into the books. Is it possible to read just some of them and still enjoy them?

With a few exceptions, most are good singletons if you are already a little familiar with the 40K universe. You can read Fulgrim right off the bat with no trouble, so long as you remember that this is before the Fall. Most of the other books before then were about Horus' fall and setting up the Istvaan Site Massacre.

carlisimo
16-06-2016, 18:41
I'll do that. But I've learnt over the years that I tend to stick with what I like the look of and what I like to paint. Fluff is important but for me it comes second after the looks. I'll look into the books. Is it possible to read just some of them and still enjoy them?

The first three are a trilogy; after that, they stand alone better. Not 100% - there are some minor characters whose stories only make sense if you read all of the books for them. For example, I have no idea where Trooper Pearson was going in Know No Fear because I haven't read all of the books and short stories. But his arc contributed to the setting so it wasn't a total waste of time, and it didn't take up that many pages.

Casper Hawser
16-06-2016, 18:58
The first three books (Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in flames) all feature the Emperors children especially Galaxy in Flames so I'd read them first then Fulgrim then skip to Angel Exterminatus that will pretty much tell you the whole of Emperor's Children so far I thinks there's also a short story in Primarchs as well.


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Casper Hawser
16-06-2016, 19:08
The 1st 3 books (Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames) all feature the Emperor's Children especially Galaxy in Flames so I'd read them first then Fulgrim. The Primarchs has a short story continuing on the events after Fulgrim and finally Angel Exterminatus that lot will tell you the fall of the Emperors children and the ascension of Fulgrim to Daemon primarch.


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