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Herkamer63
22-06-2016, 16:38
Dreadnoughts without a doubt got a boost earlier in the week. Nothing over the top, but it makes them a much more reliable unit in hand to hand, thanks to the 2 extra attacks added onto their profile. However, it still doesn't solve the problems of Dreads, or all walkers for that matter.

One way to fix it, and more people have been talking about it, is to take away armor value and put toughness on with reasonable armor saves. I'd go further and say whatever they're highest armor value is right now, halve it, and there's your toughness. I also would keep the walker rule, but modify it. Poison weapons would have a harder time wounding them, and if they lose their last wound they explode. I would not make them monstrous creatures. I wouldn't even give them smash. The only other rule I'd give them is hammer of wrath. The strength of each walker as they are now are fine. Finally, make them extremely bulky.

I will admit, the above mentioned probably won't happen for a while, so how does it get fixed while they're still vehicles? My biggest concern is movement. Instead of saying they can no longer move if an immobilized result is rolled, halve their movement. Normally a 6" move,in some cases, it would be reduced to 3" if immobilized is rolled. For charging: d6 charge instead of 2d6. A save of some kind would be nice on some of them, but not on all of them. Transport for walkers would be interesting, other than what's already there.

I don't know if this'll solve all the problems, but it's at least a start.

Daenerys Targaryen
22-06-2016, 16:57
Dreadnoughts should ideally start at T7, with the likes of Venerables and specialised ones such as Bjorn/Murderfang going up to T8. Look at Wraithlords - the closest MC equivalent to the Imperial/Chaos Dreadnoughts; it's T8/W3.

Ideally, they should be given a rule such as 'Armoured Might' which limits the overall effectiveness of Poison weapons AND limits the abilities of small arms (namely S3-5 weapons) from simply drowning a Dreadnought in wounds... (ie: Lasguns, Bolters, Shuricats, Shootas, Flesh Borers, Pulserifles et all *should NOT!* be capable of harming a Dreadnought.)
You should at least require at least a basic 'heavy' caliber weapon such as a Heavy bolter/Ass-can/Shuricannon, Gauss, etc... to inflict damage on Dreads and their equivalents.
Otherwise we'll end up with silliness such as a bunch of Guardsmen going FRFSRF'ing 200 Lasgun shots and blowing things apart! I know Lasguns are supposed to be the ultimate 'strength in numbers' style weapon, but seriously, there's no way in hell they should *ever* be able to do anything beyond stitching one's name in a Dreadnought's paint job!

Herkamer63
22-06-2016, 18:11
Dreadnoughts should ideally start at T7, with the likes of Venerables and specialised ones such as Bjorn/Murderfang going up to T8. Look at Wraithlords - the closest MC equivalent to the Imperial/Chaos Dreadnoughts; it's T8/W3.

Ideally, they should be given a rule such as 'Armoured Might' which limits the overall effectiveness of Poison weapons AND limits the abilities of small arms (namely S3-5 weapons) from simply drowning a Dreadnought in wounds... (ie: Lasguns, Bolters, Shuricats, Shootas, Flesh Borers, Pulserifles et all *should NOT!* be capable of harming a Dreadnought.)
You should at least require at least a basic 'heavy' caliber weapon such as a Heavy bolter/Ass-can/Shuricannon, Gauss, etc... to inflict damage on Dreads and their equivalents.
Otherwise we'll end up with silliness such as a bunch of Guardsmen going FRFSRF'ing 200 Lasgun shots and blowing things apart! I know Lasguns are supposed to be the ultimate 'strength in numbers' style weapon, but seriously, there's no way in hell they should *ever* be able to do anything beyond stitching one's name in a Dreadnought's paint job!

At the very least, any small arms fire that doesn't have an AP, one of the following: No damage at all or reroll failed armor saves. Anything like a lasgun should not be able to destroy something like a Dreadnought, so yeah. I'm with you there. Something else to add, and this may not apply to all walkers if they're given toughness values: have a quasi eternal warrior where if you do get hit by an instant death weapon, lose 2 wounds, not all wounds. Just a thought, at least with Dreadnought like walkers or nastier.

Aurelius 12 Reborn
22-06-2016, 18:29
I find it very interesting that over in the Knights in Casual Play there are people arguing the exact opposite- that any unit in the game should have a theoretical chance of killing another.

Needless to say I disagree.

Chevron_Locked
22-06-2016, 19:52
My mate always took out my wraithlord easily (most time in one turn). Making dreads and walkers have a toughness value really wouldn't improve things in my opinion. I don't see why you'd give them a toughness just to add more rules to stop then from getting ID'd or poisoned. If anything I think the rules regarding glancing hits need changing universally say, all armour units have 4+ save against glancing hits only or something. Just my thoughts.

Daenerys Targaryen
22-06-2016, 20:16
I find it very interesting that over in the Knights in Casual Play there are people arguing the exact opposite- that any unit in the game should have a theoretical chance of killing another.

Needless to say I disagree.
There's no helping some people... I keep getting told that CSM's for example are fine, because DP's, Oblits & Helturkies are over powered filth on the same level as everything Eldar!

I've even seen people arguing that 10 Bolter Marines should be able to explode a Warlord Titan! O.o

Draconis
22-06-2016, 20:50
Lol not only do dreads get more attacks than a wraithlord now, and in some cases, TWICE as many, but you're already immune to S5 and 6 weaponry, and now you want to make wraithlords even worse in comparison... for a lower point cost. Damn, marines want it all.

Herkamer63
22-06-2016, 22:13
Lol not only do dreads get more attacks than a wraithlord now, and in some cases, TWICE as many, but you're already immune to S5 and 6 weaponry, and now you want to make wraithlords even worse in comparison... for a lower point cost. Damn, marines want it all.

That's right, I want it all. Where's that soul you promised me? Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply toughness on walkers would fix them. I was just repeating what has been said on the net, and if it happened those would be some of the things I would do. I don't have a problem with them remaining vehicles as long as they fix immobilized on them. I don't think they should stop all together, and they should halve their movement. That's all. If anyone runs sentinels, mauler/forge fiends, or the gorka/morkanought this would at least give them a chance.

Daenerys Targaryen
23-06-2016, 01:05
Lol not only do dreads get more attacks than a wraithlord now, and in some cases, TWICE as many, but you're already immune to S5 and 6 weaponry, and now you want to make wraithlords even worse in comparison... for a lower point cost. Damn, marines want it all.
Well, their army wide special rule IS "And They Shall Know No Fairness" after all!:P

But in all seriousness, the +2A bonus should simply be applied to every single 'Dreadnought equivalent' in the game. (ie: Deff Dreads, Chaos Dreads, Forge/Maulerfiends, Wraithlords, Carnifex, etc...) Basically, every Walker type unit that is actually designed to rip & smash stuff in close combat. (so, Sentinels & maybe Killa Kans would be exempt)
Dreads as a whole have been beyond hopeless in close combat since 3rd edition, as they're so hideously easy to tarpit when they can only throw out 2-3 attacks per round. Angry washing machines should require more than 10 Guardsmen to keep them occupied for most of, if not the entire game!

Draconis
23-06-2016, 13:22
So then should everything thats designed to do melee damage get +2 attacks? What about wraithlords? They do even less damage than a walker, yet cost more.

Chevron_Locked
23-06-2016, 13:49
So then should everything thats designed to do melee damage get +2 attacks? What about wraithlords? They do even less damage than a walker, yet cost more.

I think that monstrous (not gargantuan) creatures need a thread themselves to stop this thread from rolling off topic. Whilst the wraithlord is an equivelent it isn't a vehicle like the war walker or dreadnought. I do think WL's are on the expensive side (look at how cheap our Wraithknights are!) but I think durability is something walkers (and all vehicles) need along with a fair few MC's.

As I said above I don't think toughness is the way as all it takes is a round of str8 ap3 weapons to send them packing (missile launchers have a use!). As for combat... maybe walkers should have hit and run but only in open ground (can imagine in cover it's easier to avoid an angry tumble dryer's attacks)

WhispersofBlood
23-06-2016, 15:47
Lots of things could be done to walkers. But, I hate the damage table in particular. It's a throw back to when the game was an almost pure role playing game. If MC got worse as they took damage in a AoS type fashion I could see the comparison between the two but as it stands they shouldn't be cross referenced.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 18:30
Lol not only do dreads get more attacks than a wraithlord now, and in some cases, TWICE as many, but you're already immune to S5 and 6 weaponry, and now you want to make wraithlords even worse in comparison... for a lower point cost. Damn, marines want it all.

Slightly missing the timeless trade-off that Dreads will often go down pretty easily to a single shot, whilst it's the norm to need to wound an MC multiple times before it bits the dust, and won't lose any effectiveness until dead. Pretty basic stuff.

insectum7
23-06-2016, 18:37
Maybe the question to ask is what are the perceived shortcomings of walkers? Knights are walkers, but the preference is to make them more vulnerable. Non-super-heavy walkers. . . people want to make them less vulnerable, is that right?

But then: Do Maulerfiends really need a boost? I don't know what their attack profile is off the top of my head, but I know they're crazy fast. Their speed makes them valuable, and I don't think they could be tougher without a points increase. Is that wise?

I get the increase of attacks for Dreds, since otherwise they don't really have a high damage output (which is sad) when compared to Predators, Vindicators, Centurions and Grav in general. Extra attacks gives them a siege cqb role, and encourages them to be at the front with the infantry. That seems appropriate, at least.

But do War Walkers need a boost? I dunno, they seem pretty awesome with their low cost, dual Scatter Lasers and Shields.


Lol not only do dreads get more attacks than a wraithlord now, and in some cases, TWICE as many, but you're already immune to S5 and 6 weaponry, and now you want to make wraithlords even worse in comparison... for a lower point cost. Damn, marines want it all.

Yeah I see where you're coming from, but NOT having a damage table has some nice benefits. Also, the Wraithlord sports those extra weapons like free flamers. It's got the option for buit-in wall-of-flame/horde control. Another nice boost is that it has a save vs. the ever popular Krak Grenade. Krak wounds/glances both Dreds and Wraiths on a 6, but only the Wraithlord has a 3+ save. Wratihlords get saves while Dreds get none.

Speaking of saves, Wraithlords are far, far superior at getting a cover save as well.

Overall, Wraithlords wind up being tougher and with better ranged options, while Dreds became more punchy.

Abbadonsrighthand
23-06-2016, 18:40
Maybe the question to ask is what are the perceived shortcomings of walkers? Knights are walkers, but the preference is to make them more vulnerable. Non-super-heavy walkers. . . people want to make them less vulnerable, is that right?

But then: Do Maulerfiends really need a boost? I don't know what their attack profile is off the top of my head, but I know they're crazy fast. Their speed makes them valuable, and I don't think they could be tougher without a points increase. Is that wise?

I get the increase of attacks for Dreds, since otherwise they don't really have a high damage output (which is sad) when compared to Predators, Vindicators, Centurions and Grav in general. Extra attacks gives them a siege cqb role, and encourages them to be at the front with the infantry. That seems appropriate, at least.

But do War Walkers need a boost? I dunno, they seem pretty awesome with their low cost, dual Scatter Lasers and Shields.

Maulerfiends technically have 3 attacks base due to having 2 powerfists but are way too vulnerable to getting imobilised and made useless plus they have a rubbish weapon skill

insectum7
23-06-2016, 18:56
Maulerfiends technically have 3 attacks base due to having 2 powerfists but are way too vulnerable to getting imobilised and made useless plus they have a rubbish weapon skill

Yeah. . . but that movement speed and ignoring cover is pretty effin sweet. Don't they have some melta-attack thingy too? Plus the Daemonic save?

Sure they can be immobilized (like Dreds), but their speed sure makes them more likely to get to combat and actually use their attacks.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 19:20
Maybe the question to ask is what are the perceived shortcomings of walkers? Knights are walkers, but the preference is to make them more vulnerable. Non-super-heavy walkers. . . people want to make them less vulnerable, is that right?

But then: Do Maulerfiends really need a boost? I don't know what their attack profile is off the top of my head, but I know they're crazy fast. Their speed makes them valuable, and I don't think they could be tougher without a points increase. Is that wise?

I get the increase of attacks for Dreds, since otherwise they don't really have a high damage output (which is sad) when compared to Predators, Vindicators, Centurions and Grav in general. Extra attacks gives them a siege cqb role, and encourages them to be at the front with the infantry. That seems appropriate, at least.

But do War Walkers need a boost? I dunno, they seem pretty awesome with their low cost, dual Scatter Lasers and Shields.

Yeah I see where you're coming from, but NOT having a damage table has some nice benefits. Also, the Wraithlord sports those extra weapons like free flamers. It's got the option for buit-in wall-of-flame/horde control. Another nice boost is that it has a save vs. the ever popular Krak Grenade. Krak wounds/glances both Dreds and Wraiths on a 6, but only the Wraithlord has a 3+ save. Wratihlords get saves while Dreds get none.

Speaking of saves, Wraithlords are far, far superior at getting a cover save as well.

Overall, Wraithlords wind up being tougher and with better ranged options, while Dreds became more punchy.

Very good summary overall. From experience, Maulers are fine, whilst Dreads have been left in the dust by power creep - their basic stats and loadouts having remained broadly unchanged since 3rd.

Daenerys Targaryen
23-06-2016, 19:22
Yeah. . . but that movement speed and ignoring cover is pretty effin sweet. Don't they have some melta-attack thingy too? Plus the Daemonic save?

Sure they can be immobilized (like Dreds), but their speed sure makes them more likely to get to combat and actually use their attacks.
Yes they're fast, so what? 3-4 WS3 attacks still means that they're complete rubbish at actually killing anything in combat, which is the only time they even have any kind of damage output.

If Loyalist Dreads were awful in combat due to a lack of attacks & thus needed the +2A boost to be anything beyond Riflemen or shelf ornaments, then you can't turn around and argue that Maulers are fine just because they're fast - they still suck massively at their one and only job!
Outside of running 2-3 into the same target, all you're doing is tarpiting something for 130'ish pts, when Cultists also exist AND bring Obsec to boot.

Being really fast is meaningless when you can't effectively do any kind of even average damage.
They're fine in terms of their resilience, but that's about all they can ever achieve, because they lack a meaningful amount of attacks (as all Dreads did/still do in non-Loyalist cases), AND because GW has decided that Daemon engines should be WS3 because, "lolz!Chaos = randumb!"

If they got +2A & WS5, plus access to upgrade to the relevent 'Daemon of...' rules, then they'd be a solid unit for closer what a Forgefiend currently costs. (ie: most Chaos players would happily pay 170-190pts for such a beastie, especially considering that the 'Fiends are more 'centerpiece' models anyways, both in their size & price point!)

Scammel
23-06-2016, 19:33
Yes they're fast, so what? 3-4 WS3 attacks still means that they're complete rubbish at actually killing anything in combat, which is the only time they even have any kind of damage output.

If Loyalist Dreads were awful in combat due to a lack of attacks & thus needed the +2A boost to be anything beyond Riflemen or shelf ornaments, then you can't turn around and argue that Maulers are fine just because they're fast - they still suck massively at their one and only job!
Outside of running 2-3 into the same target, all you're doing is tarpiting something for 130'ish pts, when Cultists also exist AND bring Obsec to boot.

What a day for basic game principles. Maulers are good because they can pick their fights, whilst Dreads almost invariably can't and thus often waste their own points on CC potential. A Mauler can happily rip apart almost any vehicle it likes in an army that is otherwise often reliant on Melta guns. They're also a much more effective tarpit that Cultists, again having the ability to choose what they want to tarpit.


AND because GW has decided that Daemon engines should be WS3 because, "lolz!Chaos = randumb!"


Or because it's been a pretty well established trope for some time?


If they got +2A & WS5, plus access to upgrade to the relevent 'Daemon of...' rules, then they'd be a solid unit for closer what a Forgefiend currently costs.

No wonder.

Draconis
23-06-2016, 19:58
Wraithlord vs Dreadnought

Points Base: Wraithlord is 20 points more than a Dread. Winner: Dread
Base stats:
WS equal
BS equal
S: 10 vs 8. Winner: Dread
T: 8 vs FA: 12 S:5 weapons can wound a wraithlord. Dread is immune. Winner: Dread
T: 8 vs SA: 12 S:5 weapons can wound a wraithlord. Dread is immune. Winner: Dread
T: 8 vs RA: 10 S:4 can glance a dread. Wraithlord is immune. Winner: Wraithlord
I: equal
A: 4 vs 3. Winner: Dread
W: equal

Equipment:
Wraithlord pays to get a sword that increases him to S:9/AP:2 w/ one re-roll for missing. Max damage: 3 hits at S9/AP2
Dread has Powerfist that makes him S:10/AP:2 for free. Max damage: 4 hits at S10/AP2.
Winner: Dread

Wraithlord gets two free flamers or shurken catapults. S4/AP5 with potential to Rend. Max damage: 2 shots at S4/AP2 at 12"
Dread has Multi-Melta and Storm Bolter. S8/AP1 melta and S4/AP5 assault 2. Max Damage: 1 shot at S8/AP1 melta and 2 shots at S4/AP5 at 24"
Winner: Dread

Rules:
Wraithlord: Ancient Doom, Fearless, Monstrous Creature (Smash, move through cover, hammer of wraith, fear)
Dread: Chapter Tactics, Hammer of Wrath.
Winner: Wraithlord, though chapter tactics does give some good options.

Potential Weapon Options:
Wraithlord: 2 brightlance shots increasing cost by 33% - 2 shots at S8/AP2 long range. Or 2 missile launchers at 50% point increase. Or 2 scatter lasers increasing cost 25% or 2 shuriken cannon at the same or 2 starcannon creasing 33% of cost. Most powerful shot - 2 S8/AP2 lance shots for 40 points.
Dread: May replace multi-melta for TL-autocannon/TL-heavy bolter/TL-heavy flamer/Plasma cannon for 5% cost increase. Or assault cannon for 10% increase. Or TL-LASCANNON for 15% cost increase. Most powerful shot - 1 TL shot at S9/AP2 for 15 points.
Winner: Wraithlord wins by pure number of options albeit pays 3-4 times more points

Potential non-weapon options:
Wraithlord: None
Dread: Extra armor. Drop pod.
Winner: Dread by default

Maxed out performance:
Wraithlord w/ Sword, 2x Missile Launchers, 2x Shuriken Catapults. Max damage: 4 attacks with one re-roll at S9/AP2, 2 missile shots at S8/AP3. Cost: 185 points
Dread w/ Powerfist, Heavy Flamer, TL-Lascannon, extra armour, drop pod. Max damage: 5 attacks at S10/AP2. 1 TL-Lascannone shot at S9/AP2. Cost: 170 points
Winner: Both can kill 6 targets not including Hammer of Wrath. Dread has higher strength and longer range. Dread wins

Movement:
Wraithlord: 6" with 2d6 charge
Dread: 6" with 2d6 charge
Winner: Nobody

Vs Melta at long range:
Wraithlord: Needs 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds to kill
Dread: Need 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 glances to kill
Winner: Nobody

Vs Melta at short range:
Unfortunately I'm not sure how to calc this, but I have a feeling the Wraithlord wins.

Overall Winner: Wraithlord: 4 vs Dreadnought: 8

Dreadnought is the clear winner overall with the ability to deepstrike and STILL coming in cheaper. Now this is only the base dreadnought. Let's not even compare Ironclad or Venerable, or even Death Company with it's 8 attacks while still remaining cheaper.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 20:03
Stuff

With all that text you managed to completely ignore the points raised by Insectum and myself. Here's another:

Krak Missile:
Wraithlord: Eh
Dread: Uh-oh

Winner: What a pointless way of comparing units.

Draconis
23-06-2016, 20:15
With all that text you managed to completely ignore the points raised by Insectum and myself. Here's another:

Krak Missile:
Wraithlord: Eh
Dread: Uh-oh

Winner: What a pointless way of comparing units.

Wrong. Wraithlord: Uh-oh. 3 of those at longer range than nearly anything and he's dead. Just like a melta, takes 9 shot to get 6 hits to get 3 wounds, no save. Dread takes 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 to glance with the POTENTIAL for a pen and kill (33% chance to pen, 17% chance to destroy. So that's what? less than 10% chance to lose your dread on hits 1 and 2? Boo freaking hoo. Now let's do the math on all those 13 armor dreads).

But hey, since you want to put up pointless arguments about "IF" and we'll pretend:

Grav anything:
Wraithlord: Uh-oh
Dread: Meh

And you STILL do more damage and STILL cost on average 20-30 points less.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 20:22
Wrong. Wraithlord: Uh-oh. 3 of those at longer range than nearly anything and he's dead. Just like a melta, takes 9 shot to get 6 hits to get 3 wounds, no save. Dread takes 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 to glance with the POTENTIAL for a pen and kill (less than 17%).

And, pray tell, what happens if those pens don't kill? Doesn't the Dread suffer other effects that Monstrous Creatures are broadly immune to? Isn't there also a possibility that one of those hits could kill it straight off the bat, an impossibility for the Wraithlord?


But hey, since you want to put up pointless arguments about "IF" and we'll pretend:

Grav anything:
Wraithlord: Uh-oh
Dread: Meh

Absolutely. Congratulations, you've just demonstrated how utterly daft your previous post was. Both units have multiple advantages and disadvantages over the other, in multiple situations, and can't be arbitrarily totted up in a subjective manner of your choosing. I mean, the way you just tacked on 'Melta' at the end...

Draconis
23-06-2016, 20:27
And, pray tell, what happens if those pens don't kill? Doesn't the Dread suffer other effects that Monstrous Creatures are broadly immune to? Isn't there also a possibility that one of those hits could kill it straight off the bat, an impossibility for the Wraithlord?



Absolutely. Congratulations, you've just demonstrated how utterly daft your previous post was. Both units have multiple advantages and disadvantages over the other, in multiple situations, and can't be arbitrarily totted up in a subjective manner of your choosing. I mean, the way you just tacked on 'Melta' at the end...

Reading comprehension is abhorrent. You mean stun and shaken? that he can ignore? Or imobilize and weapon destroyed? 33% to pen, 50% to do some permanent damage? I still like those odds. As for straight killing it, I already mentioned those if you had read it. Less than 10% chance I believe.

Sure, both units have multiple advans and disadvans. But because your loyalist marines, you still do more damage and still cost 20-30 points cheaper. And it's not like grav doesn't get spammed in nearly every army.

So the point is, the dread wins hands down because it's a dread and it's in the space marine army. You get all the attacks BECAUSE of that. Other non-loyalist walkers and such will always pay a tax for being as such.


As an eldar player, if i could have the exact same rules as a dread but call it a wraithlord, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And again, that's only comparing the basic dread. Now lets add ironclad and venerable, or death company and furioso, or psyker librarian dreads. The list goes on and on.

And yes, I tacked on the melta at the end because it's the most obvious weapon for taking down a dread.... figure i'd argue in your favor

Scammel
23-06-2016, 20:44
Reading comprehension is abhorrent. You mean stun and shaken? that he can ignore? Or imobilize and weapon destroyed? 33% to pen, 50% to do some permanent damage? I still like those odds. As for straight killing it, I already mentioned those if you had read it. Less than 10% chance I believe.


A Dreadnought has decent odds of suffering any of these in the course of a game, a Wraithlord does not - a fact curiously absent from your original analysis.


But because your loyalist marines, you still do more damage and still cost 20-30 points cheaper... So the point is, the dread wins hands down because it's a dread and it's in the space marine army. You get all the attacks BECAUSE of that. Other non-loyalist walkers and such will always pay a tax for being as such.


Hey, you'll do Daenarys out of a job with the loyalist moaning. Eldar are the most utterly disgusting, game-breaking book GW have ever produced for 40k, but you're upset because a unit with roughly similar capabilities but distinctly different advantages and disadvantages costs 20-30pts more.


Now lets add ironclad and venerable, or death company and furioso, or psyker librarian dreads. The list goes on and on.


And? They pay the points for them.


And yes, I tacked on the melta at the end because it's the most obvious weapon for taking down a dread.... figure i'd argue in your favor

You seriously don't get how utterly inane that means of judging units is? Why did you split upgrades into two categories? Why did you declare a M-Melta and Storm Bolter better than two Flamers without considering different matchups? Why did you omit so many other weapons? Why not Poison? Why not Haywire?

Draconis
23-06-2016, 20:52
Funny. Marines seem to be winning all the big tournies here lately... Eldar are broken only if you play one army list. Funnily enough, not everyone plays those units. And yes, they pay the points for them. Still less than a single wraithlord. 8 attacks vs 4. For less. And because everything is based on paper, not situations because there are a literal infinite of them.

But hey, here you go little Timmy. We'll just keep giving you more, and when you complain some more, we'll give that to you too! But hey, easy mode is easy, amiright?

Scammel
23-06-2016, 21:02
Eldar are broken only if you play one army list. Funnily enough, not everyone plays those units.

And not everyone spams Grav.

insectum7
23-06-2016, 21:17
Wraithlord vs Dreadnought

. . .


Well that was just filled with terribly arbitrary metrics. Some of those comparisons make sense, but your overall analysis is to just add up the (un-weighted) scores and call it done?

Specific numbers work to an extent, but a lot more care has to be taken into the analysis here. Not the very least the fact that it's not too difficult to stop a Dred from firing effectively (shaken) or even moving (stunned/immobilized), rendering it relatively ineffective. If the Dred is immobilized, it becomes a lot more vulnerable in CC. If it's Stunned or Immobilized, it loses an attack as well. TL Autocannons loadout is nice for light vehicle hunting, but is it better than two Scatter Lasers? I think the twin Scat's will be more useful, overall (not to mention that the WL retains it's secondary weapons while the Dred loses its Powerfist and Storm Bolter/H-Flamer option). Load up the Dreadnought with more comparable shooting weapons to the WL, and you go down to S6 AP- in CC.

The degradable aspect of the Dred shouldn't be underestimated since that's exactly why many folks are so annoyed at Imperial Knights. The fact that they don't degrade like every other vehicle.



But hey, here you go little Timmy.

Ok

Draconis
23-06-2016, 21:18
Face it, marines are a coddled codex. You get preferential treatment, and have for years. You have everything in your codex. You have 4 times more than any other codex. Your rules are better. Your points are cheaper. And you can take much more of them in any given option. If it's not grav, it's missiles. If not missiles it's melta. Far, far easier to spam those than anything in the eldar codex, especially haywire grenades. And since you want to bring in specifics, how does your dread do against force weapons? Because that's an almost guaranteed kill against lords. And how many psykers see play lately?



Well that was just filled with terribly arbitrary metrics. Some of those comparisons make sense, but your overall analysis is to just add up the (un-weighted) scores and call it done?

Specific numbers work to an extent, but a lot more care has to be taken into the analysis here. Not the very least the fact that it's not too difficult to stop a Dred from firing effectively (shaken) or even moving (stunned/immobilized), rendering it relatively ineffective. If the Dred is immobilized, it becomes a lot more vulnerable in CC. If it's Stunned or Immobilized, it loses an attack as well. TL Autocannons loadout is nice for light vehicle hunting, but is it better than two Scatter Lasers? I think the twin Scat's will be more useful, overall (not to mention that the WL retains it's secondary weapons while the Dred loses its Powerfist and Storm Bolter/H-Flamer option). Load up the Dreadnought with more comparable shooting weapons to the WL, and you go down to S6 AP- in CC.

The degradable aspect of the Dred shouldn't be underestimated since that's exactly why many folks are so annoyed at Imperial Knights. The fact that they don't degrade like every other vehicle.

Fair enough, but this was all comparison of one on one. Put a barebones dread on the table vs a barebones lord and who wins? The dread, every single time. And you pay 20% less. The point is, loyalist armies always get more and more every time. 4 attacks with something that only has one weapon, or in the case of a dual gun dread, no weapons, is just absurd. Most HQs and independent characters don't even have that. Everyone complains that fodder tie them up. Same thing for wraithlords, and it still takes longer. It's disgusting how much preferential treatment marines get.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 21:41
Far, far easier to spam those than anything in the eldar codex


The Eldar boast the single most obscene unit 40k has seen since 3rd, and it's a Troops choice. You win that match hands down.


Fair enough, but this was all comparison of one on one. Put a barebones dread on the table vs a barebones lord and who wins? The dread, every single time.

This is an argument 10-year old players might make. 'Put them both on a table and see who wins to find out the better unit'.

insectum7
23-06-2016, 21:53
Face it, marines are a coddled codex. You get preferential treatment, and have for years. You have everything in your codex. You have 4 times more than any other codex. Your rules are better. Your points are cheaper. And you can take much more of them in any given option.

Marines are the poster-boy it's true. But it sure is funny to hear this from an Eldar perspective.


If it's not grav, it's missiles. If not missiles it's melta. Far, far easier to spam those than anything in the eldar codex, especially haywire grenades.

I have no D Weapons that I can think of. How many do Eldar have? Now I can get lots of Melta as a Marine player too, but I can't get Fire Dragon spam level melta. This is a stupid debate. Both books have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are very competitive at the moment.


And since you want to bring in specifics, how does your dread do against force weapons? Because that's an almost guaranteed kill against lords. And how many psykers see play lately?

It's true, a Marine Dred does great with Force weapons, not so great against Witchblades and Singing Spears though. Incidentally, a WL also does pretty well with Force Weapons, since it's T 8 and has a 3+ save. Librarians can't wound it with a Force Sword. They only wound on a 6 with a Force Axe. They also wound with a 6 with a Force Staff, but then the WL gets a save. Not the greatest example of lopsidedness there.

On the misguided comparisons theme:



Grav anything:
Wraithlord: Uh-oh
Dread: Meh


A Grav Cannon has a solid chance of Imobilizing a Dred, with 5 shots and re-rolls to "grav-effect", and a fairly significant chance of killing the Dred outright with a second damage result doing the extra two HPs to knock it out.

Draconis
23-06-2016, 22:07
Marines are the poster-boy it's true. But it sure is funny to hear this from an Eldar perspective.



I have no D Weapons that I can think of. How many do Eldar have? Now I can get lots of Melta as a Marine player too, but I can't get Fire Dragon spam level melta. This is a stupid debate. Both books have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are very competitive at the moment.



It's true, a Marine Dred does great with Force weapons, not so great against Witchblades and Singing Spears though. Incidentally, a WL also does pretty well with Force Weapons, since it's T 8 and has a 3+ save. Librarians can't wound it with a Force Sword. They only wound on a 6 with a Force Axe. They also wound with a 6 with a Force Staff, but then the WL gets a save. Not the greatest example of lopsidedness there.

On the misguided comparisons theme:



A Grav Cannon has a solid chance of Imobilizing a Dred, with 5 shots and re-rolls to "grav-effect", and a fairly significant chance of killing the Dred outright with a second damage result doing the extra two HPs to knock it out.


4? Maybe? What's their range? How many points do they cost?

As for Fire Dragons, no kidding. They are specialists. How does the rest of your squad do? I'll give you a hint, fire dragons dont fare well. They also cost nearly as much as a squad of devs with multi-meltas with half the range.
When the eldar get something that's equiv to a 3 centurion squad, then you can call cheese. When the eldar army can take one unit and wipe out 600+ points in one turn of firing, then come tell me they are op. The truth is, you dont need D weapons because you have everything else. Hell, i dont even run any myself because the range is shorter than grav and D is worthless against demi-companies. Pure points sink. But again, we are off topic. The point was why give dreads 2 more attacks. It was a pointless upgrade that again, was pointless because it's free. It doesnt make sense fluff wise, it doesn't make sense game wise, and all it does is make it better than anything anyone else has.




This is an argument 10-year old players might make. 'Put them both on a table and see who wins to find out the better unit'.

Am I wrong? What happens when you do that? Does the Dread ever lose? Does he not have better stats, better options, and cost cheaper? In the same role.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 22:18
Am I wrong? What happens when you do that? Does the Dread ever lose?

Dread loses plenty of times. If it's a CC Dread, it doesn't stand a chance against a Lord armed with, say, Lances. But that hardly matters, because pointless contrived matchups are pointless.


When the eldar get something that's equiv to a 3 centurion squad, then you can call cheese.

Bikes. Done it. Do I get a prize?

Draconis
23-06-2016, 22:23
Dread loses plenty of times. If it's a CC Dread, it doesn't stand a chance against a Lord armed with, say, Lances. But that hardly matters, because pointless contrived matchups are pointless.



Bikes. Done it. Do I get a prize?

Neither of those are barebones, so yes you fail there. Bikes? So that's 224 points? Funny, centurions are 165 points. That's not the same, not even close. I want to know what squad of bikes you used that killed 615+ points using 12" range weapons. I'm also curious as to how T4, 1 wound models with a 3+ save are even close to being the same as 2 wound, 2+ save with 5 shots apiece with AP2 and rerolls, that can target two different squads.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 22:29
Neither of those are barebones, so yes you fail there.

'No, conform to MY arbitrary scenario!'


Bikes? So that's 224 points?

Nope, 96 points for 12 S6 shots that are Troops, can contest objectives, can jink if need to and don't have to ever see combat. Best unit in over a decade of 40k, by far.

Draconis
23-06-2016, 22:39
'No, conform to MY arbitrary scenario!'



Nope, 96 points for 12 S6 shots that are Troops, can contest objectives, can jink if need to and don't have to ever see combat. Best unit in over a decade of 40k, by far.

So in all the game, all your 200+ page codex, in all the 50+ units you have, you can't figure out how to kill 3 single wound, T4 models.... that really says a lot about your ability to play the game. 10 tac marines rapid firing wipe out 2 without any problems.... And if they fire first? They hit you 8 times, wound 6 times, you save 4 of them.... ohhhhhhhhhh! So broken. So scary.

Scammel
23-06-2016, 22:47
So in all the game, you can't figure out how to kill 3 single wound, T4 models.... that really says a lot about your ability to play the game. 10 tac marines rapid firing wipe out 2 without any problems.... And if they fire first? They hit you 8 times, wound 6 times, you save 4 of them.... ohhhhhhhhhh! So broken. So scary.

Or the Tacticals never get a shot off because they're outranged, and lose to a unit half their cost. Besides, even if I did mange to catch them - 96 points.

I think it's very curious that this is what sprung into your head when I mentioned the Bikes:


So that's 224 points?

You seriously didn't know about the whole underpriced Scatter Laser thing? Try them out, you might discover why they're the best unit in the game.

Draconis
23-06-2016, 22:55
Or the Tacticals never get a shot off because they're outranged, and lose to a unit half their cost. Besides, even if I did mange to catch them - 96 points.

I think it's very curious that this is what sprung into your head when I mentioned the Bikes:



You seriously didn't know about the whole underpriced Scatter Laser thing? Try them out, you might discover why they're the best unit in the game.

You play on a 6'x4' board.... that's 24" on either side. They're also more than double the cost of your marines. You're also comparing apples to oranges. A mobile unit vs a static unit that don't even have the same roles in game. I do know about the scatbikes. I know they are good. They are not nearly as broken as you pretend, though I do admit they are good. I dont like them, I dont play them. Don't like the models. I compared my troops to your troops, that's all. They are typical eldar, in that they are pure glass cannon. You either play them right, or you die in an explosion of rainbow confetti. Still doesn't prove the point that dreads and to an extension, marines are just ridiculous. GW could give you a 50 point option to auto win the game and you'd still find a way to justify it while calling the other codex cheese. Watch and I'll prove it. When the chaos marine codex comes out, bet you their dreads don't get the same change.

Elbows of Death
23-06-2016, 22:59
This just became a terrible thread...

Scammel
23-06-2016, 23:01
You're also comparing apples to oranges.

You made the comparison. :eyebrows:


GW could give you a 50 point option to auto win the game and you'd still find a way to justify it while calling the other codex cheese. Watch and I'll prove it. When the chaos marine codex comes out, bet you their dreads don't get the same change.

Damn, that's hilarious.

I play CSM and Orks.

insectum7
23-06-2016, 23:02
4? Maybe? What's their range? How many points do they cost?

As for Fire Dragons, no kidding. They are specialists. How does the rest of your squad do? I'll give you a hint, fire dragons dont fare well. They also cost nearly as much as a squad of devs with multi-meltas with half the range.
When the eldar get something that's equiv to a 3 centurion squad, then you can call cheese. When the eldar army can take one unit and wipe out 600+ points in one turn of firing, then come tell me they are op. The truth is, you dont need D weapons because you have everything else. Hell, i dont even run any myself because the range is shorter than grav and D is worthless against demi-companies. Pure points sink. But again, we are off topic. The point was why give dreads 2 more attacks. It was a pointless upgrade that again, was pointless because it's free. It doesnt make sense fluff wise, it doesn't make sense game wise, and all it does is make it better than anything anyone else has.

You asked about spam and I gave you examples of spam, these are your rules. Also, point out where I called "cheese". I'm sensing some blind spots in regards to your codex here, considering the WK can fire a D weapon at two different targets, potentially eliminating very two high-value targets a turn as well. Centurions can be really powerful, sure. Wraithkights can also be really powerful, I hope you're aware. Regardless, why is it necessary to compare a single unit against a single unit when the game is multiple units vs. multiple units (other than to provide a biased "proof", that is.)?

But like you say, on topic: Are Dreds really now "better than anything anyone else has." Really? Nooo. I don't think Dreadnoughts are going to be breaking the game anytime soon, even with their "whopping" 4 whole attacks.

I mean, five Terminators as a squad have 8+ Powerfist attacks. Totally OP.


This just became a terrible thread...

More like fun! . . . meh.

Really though, what walkers need improvement, and to what end? I feel like there's a wish listing aspect to this a bit. I'll stand by the notion that War Walkers are a fine unit, for example, and need no boost. They have a clearly defined role, and do it well for their cost.

Dosiere
28-06-2016, 06:18
I actually like that walkers are vulnerable to anti tank weaponry, and that they are susceptibile to the damage chart. MCs are fairly hard to deal with using old school weapons in the game. Walkers are still powerful, but there is always that risk it just gets one shotted by a las cannon or immobilized and I'm ok with that, makes the game more interesting. Heck, I've blown up a land raider before with a single lascannon shot. I'd rather not see every walker turn in a MC.

Tokamak
28-06-2016, 17:48
I don't think you can balance the system one unit-type at the time. This whole thing has to be done unilaterally across the whole system.

The start would be to draw a hierarchy system, what is effective against what, an intricate rock paper scissors network. Then figure out the point costs and statlines from there.

murgel2006
29-06-2016, 02:51
Personally I play 3 Marine type and an Eldar army.
I do agree to giving the dreads 4 bas attacks. I even think it was time they did the adjustment for the BA;DA;SW. The change for SM was indicated as well, as far as I see a dread. It didn't feel op in the games I have seen so far.
I also agree, that there has to be done something to fix the Wraithlord. Upping the attacks would work and is IMO the only thing it really needs.

Most of the walkers in the game need a slight adjustment to become a worthy unit. BUT the adjustment IMO is often to me made by the player fielding them. Except one point.
WarWalkers are a support fire platform they have nothing to do in CC, keep them away from it. They do not need a fix they are fine (as is almost all of the Eldar Codex units if used for their intended purpose)
Hellbrute, maulerfiend etc are CC units and frankly the Marine-dreads are fixed now. The hellbrute needs the same treatment (+2 A) and is at least a realistic option.
Maulerfiends need the added attacks and a WS of 4 at least better 5! They are a dedicated CC unit and stats should reflect that.

What really is one of the main problems with walkers, MC and CC in general is that one can't leave it. MC/Vehicle/Walkers should be able to leave CC.
something like this:
Declare the leave at the Start of a combat phase. The leaving takes place after this phase is resolved.
For an MC receive one additional hit with a 4+ to wound and your regular armour save and then you move away d3+1".
For walkers and vehicles it works like that: receive one additional hit with a 4+ to glance (IF a glance happens you need an additional role of 5+ to upgrade that to a pen) and then you move away d3+1".
Sorry gents MCs are more nimble, etc. and better at running... :cool:
All other units should have a way similar to Hit and Run but with more risk to it. Say:
A unit other then MC, vehicle or Walker can attempt to leave CC by forsaking all of their models attacks in the CC phase they chose to leave and then passing an initiative test. A failed test has no further consequences. A successful test will give you the d3+1" movement after the combat. IF a unit has now way out, it can not move and thus fails to leave the combat (still you may try...)
SH classed models also have to forsake their attacks due to being big and cumbersome however their leaving movement is treated exactly like a tank shock.

Hellix_The_Thanatar
29-06-2016, 04:30
I think maybe, there could be an unmentioned facet to this idea of walkers needing an improvement.

Maybe access to incredibly effective, cheap hard hitting long range weapons needs to be reduced?

There are a few things in this game that should never have come about, grav and haywire being some of them.

Free tanks with lass cannons another.

Maybe reigning in the heavy weapons certain armies can bring to bear would lead to armor being more effective? The power creep is real, do we need units to rise to the new level or tone it down a notch?

Just a thought.

Xuri-n
29-06-2016, 08:56
Dreadnoughts without a doubt got a boost earlier in the week. Nothing over the top, but it makes them a much more reliable unit in hand to hand, thanks to the 2 extra attacks added onto their profile.

Could someone kindly point me to where this has come from?, been away from the game for a few months due to work etc, and would certainly see the dreads make a welcome return to my lists

Casper Hawser
29-06-2016, 11:29
Could someone kindly point me to where this has come from?, been away from the game for a few months due to work etc, and would certainly see the dreads make a welcome return to my lists

Check out FAQs first draft in news and rumours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Elbows of Death
30-06-2016, 00:29
I think maybe, there could be an unmentioned facet to this idea of walkers needing an improvement.

Maybe access to incredibly effective, cheap hard hitting long range weapons needs to be reduced?

There are a few things in this game that should never have come about, grav and haywire being some of them.

Free tanks with lass cannons another.

Maybe reigning in the heavy weapons certain armies can bring to bear would lead to armor being more effective? The power creep is real, do we need units to rise to the new level or tone it down a notch?

Just a thought.

Outsider opinion here...(ie. keep up to date with the game but do not play it). This is something which has turned me off completely from re-joining Warhammer in the current edition. The lethality has escalated tremendously, almost comically. In general there has been a tremendous arms race which has been sky-rocketing. The amount of weapons which are high strength or ignore armour now is ridiculous. Unfortunately this, in turn, makes more and more units obsolete. There was a time in 40K when a 10-man Space Marine tactical squad wasn't a useless pile of plastic waiting to be obliterated by a 10" template and dozens of dice. Now, the tabletop is covered by numerous Strength 5/6, AP 1/2 weapons. I've been massively turned off by watching dozens and dozens of battle reports where everyone is rolling 20-30 dice...re-rolling them (insert silly special rules here) and then ignoring all armour etc.

I think the push is for faster game play (ie. suitable for tournaments where you play 3-4 games in a day) etc. And the more violent, the larger the game...the larger the game the more models etc.