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Daevie
11-07-2006, 20:10
Why are they so bad in the tabletop... But so badass in DOWWA...

I had Kasrkin in my army and for a long time they have served well as a centre piece on my board... basically... I love them (personal problem)

but they cant hit to save their lives and they have the stopping power of a leggless ant...

anyone else think they should be changed? Or do you change them yourself in games like kill-team to make it more interesting?

thanx all!

Estragor
11-07-2006, 20:20
The problems of the hellguns are shown when, like all poor ap/ low str weapons they suck against marines. 32 hellgun shots, 2 krak grenades & 2 flamers managed to kill a single marine in 1 round of shooting. Not very good for an "elite" unit.

However, the true worth of the hellgun is shown when facing low save troops, such as guardsmen, cultists, dark eldar, ork boyz and tryanid gaunts. The Ap 5 of the hellgun is much more useful when facing these enemies, which to be honest are what the Imperial Guard are for.

The solution: make hellguns either str 4 or assault 2 to help out with their elite image. That or just make all Marine players fight other Marines instead :)

robertsjf
11-07-2006, 20:23
That or just make all Marine players fight other Marines instead

Works for me!

No, the real issue with the hellgun is that not enought people play armies with an armor save or 5+ or worse...

Daevie
11-07-2006, 20:24
I would have said anm assualt weapon...

but unfortunately all i face is bloody marines! (they're the evil ones)

*sigh*

at least i have 3 ordnance!

thanx anyway

Tonberry
11-07-2006, 20:28
To make them Winter Assault accurate, thye would need to be assault 2 or 3, they shoot ridiculously fast in that game. I agree they need a boost though. Assault 3 would be nice :D

Dat Wildboy
11-07-2006, 20:31
i love them in winter assault too! assault 2 is too shotgun-ish IMO, i think they need to be strength 4, or assault 3. or rolled randomly, like d6 shots or something along those lines.

how about rending? i'm just kidding.

jahorin
11-07-2006, 20:36
assault 2 would be just fine... assault 3 is a bit overkill. i would be really please with S3 AP5 assault 2, deepstriking!

robertsjf
11-07-2006, 20:40
how about rending? i'm just kidding.
Nice! Why not just use the stormtroopers as a BS 4 Sv4+ 2 plasma gun caddy if all a person plays against is marines? Or take some meltaguns and deep strike behind armor or something...

Minister
11-07-2006, 20:55
I remain convinced that the solution to half the problems in 40K is to not allow anyone to start another army until they have painted at least 1500 points of Orks, Guard or Tyranids. This also ensures that something vaguely resembling the balance of numbers in the fluff is maintained.

Inq. Veltane
11-07-2006, 21:01
Yeah, the solution is to get rid or marines...

Although personally I think that we should return Hellguns (aka Hotshot Lasguns) to being S4. S4 AP5 Rapid Fire would be fine in my book. Although being Assault would be nice (I like meltaguns and flamers, can you tell I play Inquisition armies? ;) ) I think it is right that they are Rapid Fire though - they should go back to being less reliable Bolters...

MrLiy
11-07-2006, 21:06
Hate to be the one to bring this point up, but here it goes.

The strength of stormtroopers are their ability to bring a higher number of assault weapons with higher skill, and better armor.

I use them against single models that are hard to take down usually. Two plasma guns or two meltas, and a plasma pistol on the sergeant is usually more than what a single character or tank can take.

The hellguns are nice, but kinda overshadowed by the assault weapons and their ability to stick them up the enemies nose.(literally)

ok backing off before this turns into a tactical thread

xibo
11-07-2006, 21:26
why not make them assault 1 24" AND assault 2 12"? Also Strength 4 would be nice. Come on, fire warriors cost the same and have strength 5.
And targeters arent worth THAT much...

Luna de hierro
11-07-2006, 21:42
Even against marines Kasrkin/stormtroopers have a higher % of hitting them and thats enough for me.

Steel_Legion
11-07-2006, 21:46
to be fair, the hellgun i think are fine, shotguns are what get on my nerves! but i agree, changing accordingly would be nice, but if they were boltguns, it just wouldnt be "guardy" ie crap when there is only 1, but deadly in the masses, BS4 is nice too for stormtroopers, so i personally think they are fine, they arent ment to be great remember, just better :D

athamas
11-07-2006, 22:24
both shotguns and hell guns are a shadow of their previous selves..


when ASM is finaly bought back... [some one will come up with a brilliant idea at some point...]

hell guns might be usefull [they used to be effectivly bolters.. ] and shot guns had a shot that ignored cover, or was a solid slug [S4] and had 18" range...


oh well bring on the next eddition...

neko
11-07-2006, 22:37
Personally, I like the idea of keeping hellguns S3 (because at the end of the day they're still lasguns), but representing the overloaded shot with AP5 and rerolling failed to wound rolls.

One idea I saw for shotguns on dakka was to give them pinning to represent the knockback from being shot by one. I think that could be a nifty idea to play with.

Chem-Dog
11-07-2006, 23:19
Hot-shot lasguns are just as reliable as bolters (which aren't owned by marines, anyway), both get a ammo roll of 6 in Necromunda, so assuming Hellgun = Hotshot lasgun they are on a par with bolters, well maintained they will be fine but without constat care and maintenance they'll quickly become as dangerous to the owner as they are to the target.

I'm not convinced the Hellgun needs improving (I am getting a sense of De ja vu typing this), making them assault 2 (at 24", I assume) wouldn't change too much, I suppose it would mean a few more shots upon the target.
Maybe an alternative fire mode, like Slaaneshi Sonic Blasters, would do the trick.
Rapid fire (as is) or Max power = S4, 24" Heavy 1 Gets hot, you don't have to use the Max power setting you can fire the normal setting without risk but this doesn't change the balance of the gun, it's still a rapid fire weapon.

I suppose you could apply the Max Power principal to either fire modes, 2 shots at short range will just mean your more likely to take a "get's hot" roll.

GodofWarTx
12-07-2006, 01:01
firewarriors dont have BS4, dont have high leadership, dont have special weapons,and are in an entirely different army with its own points weight.

I wouldnt mind Hellguns being R:18 Assault 2. Thats it, no more.

Jet Black Mamba
12-07-2006, 01:16
Anyone else notice that if you up it to Str.4 it just becomes a bolter? Hellguns ain't exactly ment to be amazing guns: they're just souped-up lasguns (essentially), hence the AP5. As has been said before, its the upped stats and more special weapons that makes them elites ;)

Tymell
12-07-2006, 01:50
I totally agree with Mrliy and Mamba: They're already elites with their stats and weapons choices. Yes, their hellguns don't mow down marines, but why would they? Marines are the ultimate warriors humanity can produce, do you really think they'd maintain that lofty position if a mere hellgun could easily kill them ;) Yes, an entire squad of hellguns might only kill one marine, but that seems to fit the fluff perfectly to me.

As has been said, take more powerful special weapons like meltas and plasma guns. Those will work against SMs, as is in keeping with the background: light anti-tank weaponry is needed to take them down.

I think when designing the stats of Hellguns the makers must have had a difficult time balancing them out. They didn't want something that rivaled the boltgun, but still something more dangerous than a lasgun. Not an easy task for them.

Colonel_Kreitz
12-07-2006, 02:07
Nice! Why not just use the stormtroopers as a BS 4 Sv4+ 2 plasma gun caddy if all a person plays against is marines? Or take some meltaguns and deep strike behind armor or something...

Mwahahahaha! Oh, I do love cackling maniacally.

In any case, yes, that's pretty much how I use my stromies. The real bonus doesn't so much lie in their hellguns, but the combination of BS4, 4+ saves, ability to take 2 assault weapons per squad, and deep-strike capability.

No single one of those factors is all that amazing. 4+ armor isn't fantastic, vets. are BS4 and can actually take more than 2 assault weapons. However, the unit ends up being more than the sum of it's parts.

Thus, hellguns aren't that great because, from a fluff standpoint, they shouldn't be and, moreover, the unit shouldn't rely upon somewhat superior weapons, but upon it's equipment and skills (BS4 and deepstrike). Think about it. What makes Navy SEALs and other special forces teams great? they have specialized gear and weapons that certainly helps, but it's essentially ther training and skill. This is how stormtroopers and represented in the fluff and how they should function in the tabletop. Notably, even without S4 weaponry, they can be very viable when used correctly as a mobile fireteam (or, for that matter, as a pretty good deep-strike suicide squad).

Summarily, I think hellguns are fine as is.

robertsjf
12-07-2006, 03:10
No single one of those factors is all that amazing. 4+ armor isn't fantastic, vets. are BS4 and can actually take more than 2 assault weapons. However, the unit ends up being more than the sum of it's parts.

Exactly! Besides, plasma weaponry with sv 5+ is cruel, like forcing someone to bake cookies but not providing oven mitts...

Codsticker
12-07-2006, 03:54
I believe 'The Fluff' describes them as being more powerful lasguns. In keeping with that logic the Helgun should probably be S4 but retain the AP- and the Rapidfire characteristic. They would be better than lasguns but not as good as bolters and their effectiveness would be increased against MEQ's.

vampires are cool!
12-07-2006, 19:19
i agree, they actualy did something worth while back then

Shaper Shakra
12-07-2006, 19:30
Ever see what a squad of Karskin can do to a squad of 'Nid Warriors? It's messy.

revford
12-07-2006, 19:48
I'm a big fan of Hellguns just as they are, it helps to keeps a clean divide between Sisters, Stormtroopers and Guardsmen.

Making Hellguns assault instead of rapid fire would only be undoing the changes to Rapid fire weapons that 4th Edition 40K gave us. If Hellguns got it, then Marine players would want Bolters to be assault too.

The rules for Hellguns aren't a problem, it's the fact that most players have 3+ save armies so Hellguns don't feel any more powerful.

On that point am I exaggerating? I know there are more 3+ save armies (Sisters, Grey Knights, Codex Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Necrons and Chaos Vs Orks, Guard, LatD, Tyranids, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar) than not, but are there more 3+ save players than not?

Kymar
12-07-2006, 20:11
Marines & Chaos Marines make up the vaste majority of players. Sure there is alot of Tau, Tyranid & Eldar players, but nothing compared to the number of Beakies!

alons
14-07-2006, 07:34
i like the hell gun the way it is but making them S4 AP6 would give them more damage for less penetrating (come on, its a frickkin lazer!) power,
just like the multilaser which is very powerful but cant punch through armour too well

chosen_of_khaine
14-07-2006, 08:43
i like the hell gun the way it is but making them S4 AP6 would give them more damage for less penetrating (come on, its a frickkin lazer!) power,
just like the multilaser which is very powerful but cant punch through armour too well

yea str4 ap6 would be much better, maybe assault 2 as well

Unseeing Eye
14-07-2006, 08:50
yea str4 ap6 would be much better, maybe assault 2 as well

I don't see a justification for being better than bolters--much better than bolters, actually.

Scythe
14-07-2006, 09:17
I don't mind hellguns as they are currently that much. With Bs 4 stormtroopers with 2 specials behind them, they function rather good for me. Sure they don't kill marines in droves, but still, deep striking, infiltration or a transport usually means that you can unleash rapid fire shots, and from 7 or 8 hellguns, that counts for something. Like lasguns, everything that they achieve is really a bonus...;)

chosen_of_khaine
14-07-2006, 11:13
didnt think of that, on a random note which is portrayed better,the bolters in dow or....the bolters in fire warrior :eyebrows:

Montserrat
14-07-2006, 13:30
Think may be s4 for hellgun, s3 for lasgun NO AP, but repeats hitting y the lack of X (X= when a gun goes back by the force of the shoot, sorry my english) of laser weapons...and rapid fire.

An opinion more...

Angelus Mortis
14-07-2006, 17:11
i like the hell gun the way it is but making them S4 AP6 would give them more damage for less penetrating (come on, its a frickkin lazer!) power,
just like the multilaser which is very powerful but cant punch through armour too well

I am perfectly happy with the stats for Hellguns. They are supposed to be more powerful lasguns, and not Bolters. If they were equal to bolters, that would make Space Marines and other Bolter armies more mundane than they already are. Their strength lies in their numbers. Besides, you ever see what they do to Eldar or Orks? It can be very nasty when you have two or three squads of Storm Troopers on the table against these armies. But all in all, I would be more open to fixing the Multi-laser before I would even consider Hellguns. I mean, a S6 weapon with AP-. Thats just odd.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-07-2006, 19:12
both shotguns and hell guns are a shadow of their previous selves..


'Scuse me, but that is nonsense. HE-Lasguns, bolters, and shotguns were only good in Necromunda.



when ASM is finaly bought back...


...then terminators will save on 2+ on 2d6 with a reroll and a 3+ inv in addition again, making your -1 hellgun look ridiculous.

The Arbites shotguns and munitions were nice but no -1 or -2 gun had any effect on the game.

Sekhmet
14-07-2006, 20:50
24", S4, AP- rapid fire would be perfect for a hellgun. It keeps to the laser theme of bad AP value (until you get to the las cannon, although at S9 it's only AP2 , comparable to a S7 plasma weapon... Railguns and Multimeltas are AP1 at S10 and S8).

shutupSHUTUP!!!
14-07-2006, 21:04
Personally my Storm Troopers are often fighting vehicles and elite enemy units with their plasma guns or meltaguns, as other have said. Storm troopers are like most IG and marine squads, there are 3 members of the squad who are far superior to the other 7, who are generally bodybags to keep the 3 important dudes alive.

Storm Troopers are expensive, don't waste your time equipping them with rubbish like grenade launchers, which whilst fine in themsevles are not what a unit like Storm Troopers are about. For the cost of a squad of Storm Troopers you could have 20 guardsmen with two grenade launchers anyway plus two heavy bolters for instance. Give your stormies deep strike, the sarg a plasma pistol, give the special guys plasma/melta (I prefer plasma because you can often get side/rear shots, and 4 shots > 2 shots), and give them something worthwhile to do. Even against a 5+ save army, aim higher than just killing the other guys grunts. In that light hellguns are fine, and on the occasion that you do face an enemy squad in a shootout two BS4 STR3 shots is adequate considering they're still just guardsmen.

Angelus Mortis
14-07-2006, 22:24
One other thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post as I was in a hurry. About making the Hellgun and assault weapon over rapid fire. This is just completely pointless IMHO, as the only difference between the two is the ability to assault after firing. Why on Holy Terra would you assault with your Stormtroopers?

revford
14-07-2006, 23:26
One other thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post as I was in a hurry. About making the Hellgun and assault weapon over rapid fire. This is just completely pointless IMHO, as the only difference between the two is the ability to assault after firing. Why on Holy Terra would you assault with your Stormtroopers?

To crush utterly the last fithly Tau?

Or to use that power sword your Sgt carries as a badge of rank as a weapon for a change.

Or to stop those monsters getting all those extra attacks for charging you.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
14-07-2006, 23:28
I'm always charging stuff with my storm troopers, which means not firing the hellguns at all. Don't make the mistake of assuming that simple because ST are not good in combat that you never want them to be in combat. Some units will beat them worse in a shootout than in combat so you'll want to tie them up, some units need tying up to protect your other units, some unit can actually be beat. And many units could be overcome in combat after a round of shooting. Storm Troopers get up close and personal and there is often something useful they can do in close combat that benefits your army as a whole.

One thing that pops up repeateadly is the astonished, "charge something with this unit? preposterous!" response, when even a moments pause for thought conjures a dozen circumstances in which it would be a wise thing to do.

chosen_of_khaine
14-07-2006, 23:34
I'm always charging stuff with my storm troopers, which means not firing the hellguns at all. Don't make the mistake of assuming that simple because ST are not good in combat that you never want them to be in combat. Some units will beat them worse in a shootout than in combat so you'll want to tie them up, some units need tying up to protect your other units, some unit can actually be beat. And many units could be overcome in combat after a round of shooting. Storm Troopers get up close and personal and there is often something useful they can do in close combat that benefits your army as a whole.

One thing that pops up repeateadly is the astonished, "charge something with this unit? preposterous!" response, when even a moments pause for thought conjures a dozen circumstances in which it would be a wise thing to do.

yea jus give your vet sarg a power sword

Scythe
15-07-2006, 10:22
Indeed. There are moments when it is quite nice to charge with stormtroopers instead. I always get a powersword, that means 3 attacks ignoring saves in combat. Not amazing, but good enough to kill a marine here and there. Units like devastators are better charged instead of being shot up by their heavy weapons, and the sarges powersword can really come to its own here.

xibo
16-07-2006, 16:43
just found this on wikipedia:

Hell Weapons

Hellguns and hellpistols are a more advanced form of laser weapon, carried by the elite Storm Trooper or Kasrkin regiments. They pack a slightly harder punch than comparable laser weapons, to get through light infantry armour and to also deal greater damage. However, the higher power output requires either a backpack power source or multiple specialised power cells, and hell weapons often require a higher level of maintenance. Due to this need most Guard regiments aren't equipped with this demanding firearm and use the more reliable and less demanding lasgun.

better ap and strength would represent it.

Codsticker
16-07-2006, 17:02
better ap and strength would represent it.
The problem is that then they would be just like bolters. I think that S4 AP- would be a good compromise. AP6 at best. I suppose you could go the other way: S4 AP4 but...

xibo
16-07-2006, 17:18
The problem is that then they would be just like bolters. I think that S4 AP- would be a good compromise. AP6 at best. I suppose you could go the other way: S4 AP4 but...
the mancarried version laser shouldnt be more powerfull than the 'stabilized' multilaser.
s4ap6 would fit I think.

Sekhmet
16-07-2006, 20:25
How about Str3 AP4 gets hot rapid fire? haha

sigur
16-07-2006, 20:27
I don't see much use in changing the Hellguns' stats. As we know, DoW has nothing to do with the tabletop game and basing the request for better stats for Hellguns on the fact that they work better in DoW isn't a point really.

god octo
16-07-2006, 20:32
i agree, sigur, i dont see the hellgun being a majorly killy gun, i see it as being better then the lasgun, so the AP5 value is ok. its just that there arent really lots of armies with armour of 5+, so the shots dont really seem any better.

sigur
16-07-2006, 22:01
That's not a problem of the gun though, it's the problem of the magic difference between AP4 and AP3 which means: It doesn't really matter if they are AP5 or AP4 as AP3 is the thing that decides if a weapons is penetrating armour or not. So it's a problem of the ruleset again, more specifically the unholy alliance of the insensible and blunt AP system along with the massive overrepresentation of 3+ saves.

Also, I don't think that AP4 would be justified because a Hellgun being more likely to penetrate body armour than a Bolter sounds wrong, don't you think so too? Also, S4 wouldn't be justified in my opinion. The current stats are just right as they are in my opinion. Basically, it's a slightly beefed-up lasgun and the rules represent that well.

alons
23-08-2006, 09:04
what about a save modifiyer?
str 3 AP - save reduction - 1

the laser is not so good that will punch through armour but powerful enough to leave damage on most armour

read the battle for Armageddon 3 battle report conclusion and the part where the storm troopers hellgun leaves deep scores in the armour of a orc dread
Av 12 was scored by a str 3 hellgun?

fluffwise, its cool, but an ap5 laser doesnt seem that realistic to me
the multilaser (a las weapon) is str 6, but only ap 6
so how does a hand held las weapon have better AP value?

no, a save modifier would be a cool idea and adds a new aspect to the game.

ashc
23-08-2006, 09:07
careful Alons; you tread on thin ice at the mere mention of an armour save modifier in the current edition of 40k. You wont see it happening im afraid.

Not that im knocking you for the idea; i think a hell of a lot of people would love to see ASMs back (and i am one of them), but with current GW rules and their stance on 40k, we wont see it.

Ash

Kegluneq
23-08-2006, 09:41
didnt think of that, on a random note which is portrayed better,the bolters in dow or....the bolters in fire warrior :eyebrows:
Fire Warrior without a doubt, Imperial weaponry was the only thing that game got right.

I'd personally side with making Hellguns S4 rather than giving them AP, to reflect the failures of the current AP system - an increased chance to wound could be seen as analogous to greater armour penetration, even if that's not what it literally translates to in gameplay mechanics.

BrainFireBob
23-08-2006, 09:45
The hellgun can only be adequately addressed with ASM.

However, the current game incarnation is balanced for the non-existence of ASM, though some odd things occur since you only have six outcomes of each roll.

So, to fix the hellgun, you'd funk the entire system, and it'd need complete rehauling.

Inq. Veltane
23-08-2006, 10:14
Hellguns always used to be identical to bolters in terms of effecvtiveness so I see no problem with returning them to those stats. Why punish the Guard because S4 AP5 is pretty standard for a gun? I think the simple increase in strength is enough, if balance really needs the AP reduced then so be it but I don't really see why it would.

Goq Gar
23-08-2006, 10:18
I would say the option for more special weapons. Allow for more meltas and plasmas :P

heretics bane
23-08-2006, 11:18
but they cant hit to save their lives and they have the stopping power of a leggless ant...

in afraid that its not the guns fault its the player, any 40k armie can be niegh unstoppable with some good tactics and some good luck. the hellguns could destroy any body, thats why GW but some of the stats so low so you have to think more tacticly to use them to great effective thats why its a game of tactics not stats. ive seen dark eldar warriors hold of deamon princes or i my case my strom troopers winning in combat aginst khorne beserkers

Hellebore
23-08-2006, 11:29
When the hellgun gets its stats back, I would like the shuriken catapult to get them too.

In second edition it was: 24" S4 ASM-2 1sustained fire dice.

You know what was IDENTICAL to the shuriken catapult in 2nd ed?

The Sonic Blaster.

Make shuriken catapults the same as sonic blasters and I would be all for hellguns being better.

At least the hellgun didn't get its frickin range cut in HALF...

Hellebore

r(2)Truth
23-08-2006, 15:17
I don't think hellguns should reach str4, as then it basically becomes a bolter in terms of offensive power (both stormtroopers and marines hit on 3+, wounds on 4+ then enemy MEQ gets 3+ save). Perhaps their intent was not to do that, but one could give them the overcharged shot at str4 with 'gets hot'. That would be fine.

ashc
23-08-2006, 15:22
but one could give them the overcharged shot at str4 with 'gets hot'. That would be fine.

I don't quite think the designers intent is for the hellguns to be overcharged in that way, nor the having the Elite glory boys dying in droves thanks to their own basic weapon :wtf:

Ash

Mad Doc Grotsnik
23-08-2006, 15:24
It's the armour save of Kasrkin and Storm Troopers that makes them a pain. 4+ is enough to negate 50% of all incoming small arms fire, but their low points cost doesn't really justify turning the big guns on them.

An excellent scoring unit! Plus, they can have more plasma and melta than you can shake a stick at! Horses for courses my man! Cade has 2 squads. And they consistently kick my ass. He bundles them in Chimeras, and has a unit of Ogryns playing Bodyguard. The amount of effort I'd need to expend to kill them off just isn't worth it in the long run, but overall, I cannot really afford to ignore them. Melta and Plasma will ruin anyones day! And the Ogryns mean my poor Kroot don't dare go near them!

dean
23-08-2006, 15:55
Do I dare point out that there isnt much in DOWWA that actually matches how 40k is played? (3 special weapons in a guard squad.) That said, I accidentally got stuck into HtH with my Kasrkin and I (and the Nid player) were amazed at how many armor saves they did make. A squad of 10 actually tied up a brood of 6 stealers for 2-3 turns... I've been using them for a special weapons delivery system that can tie up CC units as needed.

ShadowHawk
23-08-2006, 16:14
I think hellguns are fine the way they are, having higher strength or higher ap would just make me less likely to deep strike them with meltaguns or plasmaguns, even beyond that, the occasional day you face a non-MEQ army, the ellgun becomes an awesome weapon, my local eldar and dark eldar plaers quake at the sight of my kasrkins

cybertron2000uk
23-08-2006, 17:08
its great u dont get exploding plasma guns in DOW...thank god...lol

Outlaw289
23-08-2006, 17:33
Give the Hellgun the armor modifier rule, like no armor save better than 4+ when being fired at by a hellgun.

Or keep them at the same stats except swap Rapid Fire for Assault 2. The extra shots at BS4 would help a lot. If you can't punch through an MEQ, let them eat dice rolls! :evilgrin:

Petrov_101
23-08-2006, 19:15
Give the Hellgun the armor modifier rule, like no armor save better than 4+ when being fired at by a hellgun.

Or keep them at the same stats except swap Rapid Fire for Assault 2

I would like the Assault 2 option. Essentially, a weaker version of the Storm Bolter. I wouldn't shed a tear if the AP5 were tossed. Being able to move 6" and still lay down a hail of fire at 24" would be better in my book.

Angelus Mortis
23-08-2006, 20:51
One thing that pops up repeateadly is the astonished, "charge something with this unit? preposterous!" response, when even a moments pause for thought conjures a dozen circumstances in which it would be a wise thing to do.Perhaps so. However, I can think of probably a dozen better ways to use Stormtroopers for every way you can think of that its a good idea to charge. I wont disagree that tactical situations arise that it would be the thing to do, however, given that the primary weapons used by Stormtroopers are all rapid fire, why would you give up upwards of 6 plasma gun shots to assault something? The casualties you will most likely inflict with those far outweigh the loss of 1 attack by denying your enemy an assault. Power weapons on Stormtrooper Sergeants are not for the assault. They are to have at least a decent chance to inflict some casualties(and even then its a maybe, depends on the enemy) on an enemy that assaulted you. You could say "well, what if they are tough enough that they wipe you out in their assault?". Well, then you probably will get wiped assaulting them too. Stormtroopers were designed to be a superior shooty type unit. Although better than IG in melee, they are far superior to most units in ranged combat. Why pound that nail in with a screwdriver when you got a hammer sitting right there?


I would like the Assault 2 option. Essentially, a weaker version of the Storm Bolter. I wouldn't shed a tear if the AP5 were tossed. Being able to move 6" and still lay down a hail of fire at 24" would be better in my book.

I think way too many people are playing Marine type armies. Play versus armor save 5 armies more (such as Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG, LatD, and Orks, etc...) and you will learn just how nice it is to have that AP5. Stormtroopers become cheap marines firepower wise. Personally, I love my IST in my Daemonhunter army. They are probably one of my most valuable units in the list(I have over 60 IST).

Petrov_101
23-08-2006, 22:04
I dunno... even vs. 5+ armor saves, I think I'd prefer the double-tap at 24" range option. That being said, the current stats for hellgun are ok and I wouldn't lose sleep if they were left unchanged.

Master Jeridian
24-08-2006, 00:37
Can we take a moment to actually realise what Rapid Fire is. The bolter, lasgun, pulse rifle, hellgun, etc all fall into the assault rifle type category.

You have to have more reason to change the type of a weapon than "because it will be better". By that logic, bolters should be Str 5 because that makes them better.

No, the Hellgun is by the fluff a semi-automatic rifle type weapon- just like the lasgun, and the bolter, and many other basic troop weapons. The Rapid Fire rules exist to demonstrate this in the game.

I'm also highly dubious of upping the Strength. It makes the Hellgun remarkably similar to a Bolter, no matter how hard the supporters of this change try to convince us it's different.


A possible solution maybe to keep the stats now, but also have a different setting of firing more shots in a turn (I'm thinking Rapid Fire +1 shot), but the weapon can't fire the next turn.
This 'Recharge' rule hasn't been used in 4th Ed yet, but it will be used in the new Eldar Codex as a Dire Avenger Exarch ability.

Petrov_101
24-08-2006, 02:21
I'm also highly dubious of upping the Strength. It makes the Hellgun remarkably similar to a Bolter, no matter how hard the supporters of this change try to convince us it's different.


I can't argue with you there, but then it already is remarkably like the Bolter. Again, I suppose it's ok the way it is... tho a storm bolter-ish weapon would have been cool. I mean, they are storm troopers :)

hellfire
24-08-2006, 03:08
I think hellguns are fine the way they are stortroopers should just be a little cheaper like 9 points then they need to make vets 7 points and standard guardsmen 5 points

Outlaw289
24-08-2006, 03:33
I think hellguns are fine the way they are stortroopers should just be a little cheaper like 9 points then they need to make vets 7 points and standard guardsmen 5 points

Amen to that. IG could use a decrease in points

Offtopic: But not as bad as the Orks can. Its astonishing how much that fragile mob of boyz can cost

insectum7
24-08-2006, 07:32
"Fragile" mob of orks?! Are you kidding? What ever happened to strength in numbers? I routinely deal with 80-100 boys (not including gretchin) in an 1850 army, and its a beast. But when an ork player really wants to mob it out, he can get 100 slugga boys, plus some heavy weapons/burnas whatever for around 1000 points. Unless the army you take is specifically equipped to deal with huge numbers, this is scary stuff.

Likewise with the Imp Guard, if you want to go number heavy and rely less on more specialized units, you can go pretty far with your 6 pt. guys. I think alot of players find special units they can take, and then load up on too many thinking that the basic guard aren't worth their points. But I believe that there is a 'critical mass' where the numbers began to work heavily in a players favor, and thats why they are pointed the way they are.

As for the hellguns, it's been pointed out to me that historically, armies are equipped to fight themselves, and the stormtroopers hellgun is great against Imperial Guard or other basic human forces. I also think that not every army should have access to the same guns as others. So granting a S 4 just isn't right. And traditionally, the human factions in 40K have weapons that are good if your arranged in firing lines or behind cover and generally being static or advancing slowly with rifles, so I think the current Rapid Fire status is good.

If you really want an assault weapon, take Arbites from the Witchhunters codex, they have shotguns.

Chashan
24-08-2006, 09:10
I am not sure if this was already brought up, if so I am sorry for repeating it:
I myself think that hellguns are quite ok in the end, BUT I suppose some of you know the dark eldar-ish rank-and-file gun called splinter rifle? I think it to be rather dumb that it is basically a hellgun with the only difference to be found in the name. Also, because of stormtroopers being rather elite and hellguns being more powerful once as some of you mentioned I'd be all in for an increase of the strength to 4. In order to keep a difference to bolters, though, dropping the armour penetration to none might be a quite good solution in my eyes(as a sidenote, it even emphasizes the "flashlight"-image of the IG; of course orks, eldar and other critters receive their saves against hellguns that way, on the other hand their effectiveness against Marines, on which some of the rantings about the stats of the hellgun right now seem to be based, is enhanced).