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View Full Version : How to make Chaos in 40K great again.



Bun Bun
23-06-2016, 21:52
I was thinking recently about how Spacemarines have had all of love in the last year. Curse of the Wulfen gave Space Wolves their own decurion whilst Codex: Angels of Death pretty much did the same for the "vanilla" spacemarines. However I realised that their traitorous brethren have been left by the wayside which seems a shame really as Chaos has the potential to be a real money spinner for Games Workshop.

The idea I came up with was a four stage/book solution.

1) Codex: Chaos Daemons. This would be pretty much be an update to the existing rules by updating the relics, psychic powers, rewards and including the formations/decurion included in Curse of the Wulfen. Daemon players would get a solid codex with some really interesting builds.

2) Codex: Chaos Spacemarines. This would be the basic Chaos Spacemarine book around which a force could be built. It would include updated relics, tactical objectives, new formations, decurion and detachment. The Renegade Knight would also be included in this book as a Lord of War choice.

Now this is where the interesting part comes.

3) Codex: Slaves to Darkness. This book would deal with the cult armies, the ones who have given themselves over totally the worship of Chaos. This books would cover the Followers of Khorne, Followers of Tzeentch, Followers of Nurgle, Followers of Slaanesh and The Word Bearers. Each army would have its own formations, decurions, tactical objectives and relics. What would be unique is that these armies would be able to include daemons of chaos in their armies so players would require both the Chaos Spacemarines and Chaos Daemons codices as their decurions would include formations and units from both codices.

4) Codex: Lost and the Damned. This book would cover the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Crimson Slaughter. As per usual each force would have its own relics, tactical objectives, warlord traits, formations and decurion however this book would be more like the Angels of Death book in that the decurions would only draw from the extra formations in this book and those in the Chaos Spacemarines codex.

If GW followed this release schedule I am almost certain Chaos would make as much money for them as Spacemarines would, especially the Slaves to Darkness book. What do you all think?

A.T.
23-06-2016, 22:41
So daemons would be daemons, chaos marines likewise... though I think the knight works fine as a floating option for any chaos related army.

Slaves to darkness and lost and damned sound like a single angels of death style book that (also) supplants the daemonkin book(s).

I'm not sure the latter book would fit as well into GW's release plans as individual daemonkin books, too many models all at once. In terms of making money i'm not sure where it would differ from whatever modernisation schedule the chaos books/models are already on unless GW went full 30k on the line and started sidelining anything not an astartes.


I don't think there is any particularly unique 'money spinning' opportunity for the line. The models are old enough to encourage existing collectors to replace/update and it seems to have a decent enough player base, but the same could be said of most of the old lines. People aren't going to flood in to join the hobby just because the alpha legion have chapter relics now.

Lord Damocles
23-06-2016, 22:47
Basically you want some more Decurion-style formations for [insert colour] Spikey Marines.

The rest of your list pretty much already exists.

blackcherry
23-06-2016, 22:47
Here we go again...

*Fetches popcorn and lurks*

toonboy78
23-06-2016, 22:57
S10 bolters and AV14 rhinos would be pretty great

Lord Damocles
23-06-2016, 22:58
AV14 rhinos would be pretty great
Not an assault vehicle. Garbage.

Bun Bun
23-06-2016, 22:58
So daemons would be daemons, chaos marines likewise... though I think the knight works fine as a floating option for any chaos related army.

It would be nice to see it in a codex though.


Slaves to darkness and lost and damned sound like a single angels of death style book that (also) supplants the daemonkin book(s).

I'm not sure the latter book would fit as well into GW's release plans as individual daemonkin books, too many models all at once.

I personally think having all of the rules for the "daemonkin" style armies in one book would probably work better overall. But then this is academic really as I don't make policy when it comes to GW and to be honest I am not sure I would want to be either.


In terms of making money i'm not sure where it would differ from whatever modernisation schedule the chaos books/models are already on unless GW went full 30k on the line and started sidelining anything not an astartes.

To be honest I thought they were going to let FW deal with all of the 30K and they were going to concentrate on the 40K side.


I don't think there is any particularly unique 'money spinning' opportunity for the line. The models are old enough to encourage existing collectors to replace/update and it seems to have a decent enough player base, but the same could be said of most of the old lines. People aren't going to flood in to join the hobby just because the alpha legion have chapter relics now.

Well it was just a thought, I had not taken into account the age of the models themselves, oh well. (Goes back to painting Space Wolves.)

Daenerys Targaryen
24-06-2016, 00:06
You can't even being to fix the clusterfethed disaster that is the sorry excuse for CSM's until you garbage every model kit pre 2012, and re-release a fully re-booted model line.

Our biggest issue is that our armoury has stayed 100% identical to it's original 3rd edition codex.
Plasma guns & Autocannons are never going to out duel newer weapons & rules such as Grav, Shuriken/Scatlasers, Gauss, Splinter weaponry, Pulse weaponry, FRFSRF!, etc... GW has kept us rooted firmly in 2001. Too bad the game has moved on by only 15 years!

insectum7
24-06-2016, 00:46
Easiest boost would be some nice Formations for CSMs. You could even do god/legion-alignment formations and practically call it a day, in the short term IMO.

Example: Plague Bringers

3 Plague Marine Squads.
0-1 Terminator Squad.

Each Plague Marine squad must be seven strong, but they get Special Weapons and the Champion upgrade for free.
Cult Terminators: Terminator Squad must have the mark of Nurgle, but get additional god-specific/plague-marine bonus.

Boom, done! Without adjusting anything in the codex you can alter the balance of units, create a new, fan-desired unit, and pay homage to some of the old lore. This is where Formations can shine, imo.

Hellbrutes should get the same +2 Attacks that loyalist Dreads are getting.

Daenerys Targaryen
24-06-2016, 04:08
Except that there's no way to give "free" Champions to any CSM unit, since those pts are already baked into the squad's basic pts cost, helping to thus add to one of our problems being that we're overcosted garbage...

Or that we're the only army in the entire game who have to pay pts for our army-wide special bonuses...

Nor do we have any kind of Deep Strike mitigation...

And there's still the lamentable & entirely self-defeating Champion of Chaos BS to put up with...

Plus we're still back to square one & the whole 'Plasma guns are still our "ultimate" weapon upgrade'...

Our Land Raider, which is the worst variant btw, doesn't even function on a basic level, because "screw Chaos"...

Meanwhile we're a primarily assault based army that has 0 viable delivery methods for our many, many (over costed) assault units...

Not to mention the stupidity that *********** Imperial armies can field more actual chaos-tainted weaponry than the actual fething Chaos Marine army can! >.<


But sure, some half-****, lazy formations will obviously turn us into Eldar 2.0.

insectum7
24-06-2016, 04:51
^ I forgot the bonus Embittered: If your Chaos Lord has the same Mark/god alignment as models in this Formation, all units in the formation gain Hatred: Codex SM, BA, etc.


Except that there's no way to give "free" Champions to any CSM unit, since those pts are already baked into the squad's basic pts cost, helping to thus add to one of our problems being that we're overcosted garbage...

My mistake, give the Champion a free Cult-related bit of wargear then. This isn't rocket science, think something up!


But sure, some half-****, lazy formations will obviously turn us into Eldar 2.0.

It is the easiest step, not requiring a whole new codex. One page per Legion. Formations can do a lot if done right. (heck, Formations can do a lot if not done right.)

Abbadonsrighthand
24-06-2016, 06:23
The problem with those formations is one you make chaos reliant on formations and 2 why do our special rules have to be tied to formations

LotusCorgi
24-06-2016, 06:58
I love the idea of splitting the factions into different source books, each named after the iconic, ancient, original tomes of chaos. And yes the model range needs updating, the sooner the better. It's just that there is so much that needs updating...dont see a way to make everyone happy. I would be satisfied with a new marine kit, updated to the times, and a new havok/chosen kit. But I'm even skeptical about that.

Abbadonsrighthand
24-06-2016, 07:20
I love the idea of splitting the factions into different source books, each named after the iconic, ancient, original tomes of chaos. And yes the model range needs updating, the sooner the better. It's just that there is so much that needs updating...dont see a way to make everyone happy. I would be satisfied with a new marine kit, updated to the times, and a new havok/chosen kit. But I'm even skeptical about that.

The problem is you cant fix the issues the codex has until you update the range

insectum7
24-06-2016, 08:12
The problem with those formations is one you make chaos reliant on formations and 2 why do our special rules have to be tied to formations

1. How would Chaos be different than other factions? Other factions have units that work meh-to-well, but gain bonuses from formations.

2. Some of the most competetive armies feature special rules tied to formations.

Look, the Formations take is not the "perfect chaos fix" or anything. I'm just saying it's literally the easiest thing to do, and can go a long way. Formations can address points values by granting point-free bonuses and gear. They can create new units (like the Cult Terminator example I gave above). And they can scratch the fluff-itch of Legion/Renegade armies by providing alternate FOC arrangements and characterful rules. It's literally a win, win, win scenario for far less work than waiting for the whole book to get redone. If the Chaos book wasn't scheduled until another two years out, wouldn't you at least appreciate some new options in short-hand but useable form?

Formations can basically be the modern replacement for the Legion rules in the great Chaos 3.5. It's right there for the taking.

Abbadonsrighthand
24-06-2016, 09:06
No other armies are not reliant on formations to get their special bonuses
Space marines get chapter tactics
Dark angels get special rules for their different wings.
I don't want to be forced to play my army one way just to gain a few benefits.
The thing is these days you could take the 3.5 rules and remove the restrictions and no one would bat a eye lid

A.T.
24-06-2016, 10:21
To be honest I thought they were going to let FW deal with all of the 30K and they were going to concentrate on the 40K side.Sorry - by full 30k I mean focussing on astartes of all flavours pretty much to the exclusion of everyone else.

The loyalists don't make all the money because they have an angels of death book and a new tactical marine sprue, they make it because they are shoved forward as the central figure of the game mythos. Everything is space marines 'and others'.

StrikeDeath
24-06-2016, 12:21
No other armies are not reliant on formations to get their special bonuses
Space marines get chapter tactics
Dark angels get special rules for their different wings.
I don't want to be forced to play my army one way just to gain a few benefits.
The thing is these days you could take the 3.5 rules and remove the restrictions and no one would bat a eye lid

I'm going to reply directly to what I've highlighted.
You are correct, there are special rules for models with the Deathwing and Ravenwing rules. HOWEVER to field a significant force of either you're required to use one of the alternate FOC's -or- combinations of the various formations. And you can't make a 'pure' Deathwing force without auto-losing turn 1 every game, with a similar problem for pure Ravenwing but that's only slightly easier to manage whilst still staying pure to the 'wing in question. You may think that non-combined 'Wing forces for the Dark Angels don't require formations or alternate FoC's to use but that's where you are completely wrong.

As for the comment about not wanting to play your army a certain way for those various benefits - everyone that has a decurion style formation is restricted (well less so the Eldar who get a silly number of options in the core formation) in what they can play. In fact loot at the Necrons themselves - they get a huge amount of bonuses by playing in a Decurion and in fact they're stronger for it.

Daenerys Targaryen
24-06-2016, 13:50
1. How would Chaos be different than other factions? Other factions have units that work meh-to-well, but gain bonuses from formations.

2. Some of the most competetive armies feature special rules tied to formations.

Look, the Formations take is not the "perfect chaos fix" or anything. I'm just saying it's literally the easiest thing to do, and can go a long way. Formations can address points values by granting point-free bonuses and gear. They can create new units (like the Cult Terminator example I gave above). And they can scratch the fluff-itch of Legion/Renegade armies by providing alternate FOC arrangements and characterful rules. It's literally a win, win, win scenario for far less work than waiting for the whole book to get redone. If the Chaos book wasn't scheduled until another two years out, wouldn't you at least appreciate some new options in short-hand but useable form?

Formations can basically be the modern replacement for the Legion rules in the great Chaos 3.5. It's right there for the taking.
I would *much* rather wait another year or two for a properly done, full-on DE level re-boot (which is let's be truthful, the only thing that will 'fix' CSM's at this point), than get yet another lazy, half-baked, phoned-in & complete uninspired Jervis styled codex.

We've had 3 of those out of the 4 updates we've had since the 3rd edition re-boot of 40k. I want options and toys for once, because I'm now sick to death of the same 3 stale special weapon options.

Denny
24-06-2016, 14:04
Bob Backlund needs to write the codex.

blackcherry
24-06-2016, 14:43
Bob Backlund needs to write the codex.

Fingers crossed he can wrassle his way through the complexities. At least he'll be able to fight off the extreme fringes of the fandom.

MajorWesJanson
24-06-2016, 15:19
I would *much* rather wait another year or two for a properly done, full-on DE level re-boot (which is let's be truthful, the only thing that will 'fix' CSM's at this point), than get yet another lazy, half-baked, phoned-in & complete uninspired Jervis styled codex.

We've had 3 of those out of the 4 updates we've had since the 3rd edition re-boot of 40k. I want options and toys for once, because I'm now sick to death of the same 3 stale special weapon options.

But aren't some of the biggest complaints against the new CSM models that they are different from the existing range, when they added 3 new variants of weapons to the CSM list (Hades Autocannons, Bale Flamer, Ectoplasma cannon).

When GW updates CSM models, odds are that they will be more that aesthetic, like the Fiends, Raptors, and DV chosen, rather than the old Imperial plus spikes. But at the same time, the "dinobots" and "dragon" seem to be one of the bigger complaints by some CSM players. How is that going to work?

Daenerys Targaryen
24-06-2016, 17:22
But aren't some of the biggest complaints against the new CSM models that they are different from the existing range, when they added 3 new variants of weapons to the CSM list (Hades Autocannons, Bale Flamer, Ectoplasma cannon).

When GW updates CSM models, odds are that they will be more that aesthetic, like the Fiends, Raptors, and DV chosen, rather than the old Imperial plus spikes. But at the same time, the "dinobots" and "dragon" seem to be one of the bigger complaints by some CSM players. How is that going to work?
Honestly I don't mind the new daemon engines, nor do I see the need for all the moaning over them... Sure, the GW versions look childish & toy-like, but then GW have almost *always* been terrible at picking decent colour schemes & photography.
Model in hand, and with a suitably dark/grittier paint job as opposed to the super bright cartoony scheme GW choses, those Fiends & the Helturkey look great & extremely menacing.

As for updating the line, I think most Chaos players actively want the DV style to continue! Just don't make everything blinged out to the level of the DV Chosen/Lord obviously...
Basic Chaos Marines & Havocs are just that - basic troops. You don't see Tactical Marines or Devastators blinged out to the same level as Sternguard, so why do people seemingly assume that GW will in turn make any new CSM models as insanely mutated as the Chosen?
Raptors aren't nearly that level of mutated, and if you *really* don't like all the banding/fake lightning on their armour, it's easy to remove a decent amount of it.

Best of all, the Raptors & DV models prove that Chaos really doesn't need to be "Loyalists, but with spikes & skullz!lol." Here's to hoping the trend continues!;)

When it comes to 'new kit', yeah we got 3 new weapons... too bad they're all limited to only specific vehicles... Why is it so hard to accept that we deserve a new special & heavy weapon or two for our infantry?
Marines have +1 special and +3 heavy weapons on us, and that's before you even get into the basic variants of BA's/Wolves! Give me a god damned Heavy flamer please, and why not a couple new 'Chaos only' toys such as the return of the Kai gun, and tell the Inquisition thieves to give us our Hellrifles back!

MajorWesJanson
24-06-2016, 17:31
Honestly I don't mind the new daemon engines, nor do I see the need for all the moaning over them... Sure, the GW versions look childish & toy-like, but then GW have almost *always* been terrible at picking decent colour schemes & photography.
Model in hand, and with a suitably dark/grittier paint job as opposed to the super bright cartoony scheme GW choses, those Fiends & the Helturkey look great & extremely menacing.

As for updating the line, I think most Chaos players actively want the DV style to continue! Just don't make everything blinged out to the level of the DV Chosen/Lord obviously...
Basic Chaos Marines & Havocs are just that - basic troops. You don't see Tactical Marines or Devastators blinged out to the same level as Sternguard, so why do people seemingly assume that GW will in turn make any new CSM models as insanely mutated as the Chosen?
Raptors aren't nearly that level of mutated, and if you *really* don't like all the banding/fake lightning on their armour, it's easy to remove a decent amount of it.

Best of all, the Raptors & DV models prove that Chaos really doesn't need to be "Loyalists, but with spikes & skullz!lol." Here's to hoping the trend continues!;)

When it comes to 'new kit', yeah we got 3 new weapons... too bad they're all limited to only specific vehicles... Why is it so hard to accept that we deserve a new special & heavy weapon or two for our infantry?
Marines have +1 special and +3 heavy weapons on us, and that's before you even get into the basic variants of BA's/Wolves! Give me a god damned Heavy flamer please, and why not a couple new 'Chaos only' toys such as the return of the Kai gun, and tell the Inquisition thieves to give us our Hellrifles back!

It's not often I agree with you, but I fully endorse this post.

insectum7
24-06-2016, 18:35
I would *much* rather wait another year or two for a properly done, full-on DE level re-boot (which is let's be truthful, the only thing that will 'fix' CSM's at this point), than get yet another lazy, half-baked, phoned-in & complete uninspired Jervis styled codex.

Although the response isn't surprising, I can't imagine Chaos players would rather have nothing for the intervening (theoretical) two years before an updated book comes out.



Marines have +1 special and +3 heavy weapons on us, and that's before you even get into the basic variants of BA's/Wolves! Give me a god damned Heavy flamer please, and why not a couple new 'Chaos only' toys such as the return of the Kai gun, and tell the Inquisition thieves to give us our Hellrifles back!

Minor point: +2 Heavy Weapons. Loyalist troops don't have access to Autocannons in the way Chaos does.

Otherwise I agree with most of that post, and look forward to new 'generic' Chaos Marine models.

Abbadonsrighthand
24-06-2016, 21:40
I'm going to reply directly to what I've highlighted.
You are correct, there are special rules for models with the Deathwing and Ravenwing rules. HOWEVER to field a significant force of either you're required to use one of the alternate FOC's -or- combinations of the various formations. And you can't make a 'pure' Deathwing force without auto-losing turn 1 every game, with a similar problem for pure Ravenwing but that's only slightly easier to manage whilst still staying pure to the 'wing in question. You may think that non-combined 'Wing forces for the Dark Angels don't require formations or alternate FoC's to use but that's where you are completely wrong.

As for the comment about not wanting to play your army a certain way for those various benefits - everyone that has a decurion style formation is restricted (well less so the Eldar who get a silly number of options in the core formation) in what they can play. In fact loot at the Necrons themselves - they get a huge amount of bonuses by playing in a Decurion and in fact they're stronger for it.

Space marines don't? Why not make our rules like chapter tactics because quite frankly id rather not be forced to play certain formations to get my army's chapter tactics

Daenerys Targaryen
24-06-2016, 22:19
Although the response isn't surprising, I can't imagine Chaos players would rather have nothing for the intervening (theoretical) two years before an updated book comes out.



Minor point: +2 Heavy Weapons. Loyalist troops don't have access to Autocannons in the way Chaos does.

Otherwise I agree with most of that post, and look forward to new 'generic' Chaos Marine models.
a) So you honestly think that Chaos players would rather have yet another pile of steaming Jervis inspired rodent gak like our 3rd, 4th & 6th ed codices have all been?
No thanks, we'll wait if it means a "good" product for once.

It's been almost 10 years of bland, useless crap already, so I doubt Chaos players are really wanting more of the same just so GW can rush out a "new" (re: same bad copy/paste rules for a play style that hasn't existed since early 5th!), codex next month!


b) Loyalists have;
Heavy bolter
Heavy flamer
Missile launcher
Multi-melta
Plasma cannon
Lascannon
Grav cannon w/amp

Chaos has;
Heavy bolter
Missile launcher
Autocannon
Lascannon

That's +3 weapons, unless the laws of mathematics have suddenly changed... (Tzeentch is never sure what's what afterall. :P)

insectum7
24-06-2016, 22:59
a) That's not at all what I wrote or suggested.

b) I don't count the Heavy Flamer, as it's Sternguard only.

Casper Hawser
24-06-2016, 23:24
I think he'll be including heavy flamer because the Blood Angels tacs get to have one.



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Daenerys Targaryen
25-06-2016, 01:55
Just because it's limited doesn't make something not count...

insectum7
25-06-2016, 03:13
Just because it's limited doesn't make something not count...

Well you have to draw the line somewhere. Chaos has access to Heavy Flamers on Terminators, so then we drag in the Terminator weapons. You say loyalists have three heavy weapons on Terminators, then I say Chaos Terminators get Combi weapons and can mix and match CC weapons. . . blah blah blah.

I respectfully put the count at +2. Say as defined by Tacs/Renegades and Devs/Havocs, the "mainstay units."

But on the flipside, I think it'd be great if Chaos got the Heavy Flamer for general use. It's old tech, not complicated and brutal.

Edit: Oblits get Heavy Flamers, Plasma Cannons, Multimeltas and Assault Cannons. If you count Sternguard I call Oblits and bring it down to only the only difference being Grav-Autocannon :) May as well leave the non-standard units out of it.

Edit 2: Let Oblits get Grav. That would be a fun move.

Casper Hawser
25-06-2016, 09:24
Just because it's limited doesn't make something not count...

I feel you can compare the Chaos marine codex to codex Space Marine or Blood Angels or Space Wolves or Dark Angels or Grey Knights but combining them all vs Chaos marines is a naive way of doing it.


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A.T.
25-06-2016, 10:11
But on the flipside, I think it'd be great if Chaos got the Heavy Flamer for general use. It's old tech, not complicated and brutal.Stop taking all the sororitas stuff (shakes fist ineffectually at blood angels, marine assault squads, eldar shuriken weapons, scorpius whirlwinds...) :p



Edit: Oblits get Heavy Flamers, Plasma Cannons, Multimeltas and Assault Cannons. If you count Sternguard I call Oblits and bring it down to only the only difference being Grav-Autocannon :) Well loyalists can't take assault cannons on infantry so that takes it up to +1 for chaos. Count in the terminators and evens out with cyclone vs reaper, but then technically chaos are bringing both heavy stubbers and blastmasters to the table...

In all seriousness though something new rather than copied from the loyalist book would be the better way forward, a heresy weapon like the rotor cannon or a throwback 'rapid fire' plasma weapon for instance. I'm sure GW will want to put something new in the next CSM power armour box if there is space on the sprue just to help it sell.

Tygre
25-06-2016, 14:22
In all seriousness though something new rather than copied from the loyalist book would be the better way forward, a heresy weapon like the rotor cannon or a throwback 'rapid fire' plasma weapon for instance. I'm sure GW will want to put something new in the next CSM power armour box if there is space on the sprue just to help it sell.

Maybe give them Volkites. I would give them all them all the heavy weapons available to heavy support squads in the heresy and rotor cannons (but with better rules).

Felwether
25-06-2016, 14:27
Can we make this a sticky?

And then shoot it into the heart of a star or something...?

A.T.
25-06-2016, 15:08
Maybe give them Volkites.Volkites are the opposite of what chaos legions would have IMO - exceptionally difficult to manufacture and maintain even for the priests of Mars and superceeded by the bolter by the start of the heresy in all but a few specialised units.

MagicHat
25-06-2016, 16:03
a heresy weapon like the rotor cannon

I love it!

In the age of grav and D spam, the traitors get a mediocre anti-light infantry gun!

Personally, I would like to see the standard weapons and something new and chaotic.
Maybe switch the weapons up a bit, like S8 18" plasma gun, and AP5 HB with pinning and so on.

Cybtroll
25-06-2016, 17:06
I will go (more or less) for the same weapons chaos actually have with a bunch or USR added, like fleshbane on flamers, special demon ammunition for rocket launcher and so on.
Also 4 special god - aligned weapons may be interesting, sonic weapon for slaanesh, rad for nurse, a close combat weapon for khorne and something for Tzeentch

Fangschrecken
25-06-2016, 18:16
Given GW's current trend you'll probably get "xeno tech gun" roll for str and ap because it's kooky!

In seriousness, I'd like to see heavy flamers for basic infantry and a mass produced kai gun. Maybe make it str 5 instead but keep it at ap3.

What would people think of banestike ammo from 30K?

Denny
25-06-2016, 19:04
Also 4 special god - aligned weapons may be interesting, sonic weapon for slaanesh, rad for nurse, a close combat weapon for khorne and something for Tzeentch

Sonic weapons, blight grenades, chain axes and inferno bolts?

TheBearminator
25-06-2016, 19:49
How to make Chaos great again. Trump rhetoric? :)

insectum7
25-06-2016, 20:18
In all seriousness though something new rather than copied from the loyalist book would be the better way forward, a heresy weapon like the rotor cannon or a throwback 'rapid fire' plasma weapon for instance. I'm sure GW will want to put something new in the next CSM power armour box if there is space on the sprue just to help it sell.

Yeah? I'm less inclined towards that angle, thematically. I tend towards the idea that Chaos either has old stuff, or looted stuff for the mainstay of its forces. Which is one of the reasons I like the Heavy Flamer. But since you mentioned Blastmasters, I love that stuff to for the Cult troops. I could be swayed, surely, for some daemonic heavy weapon or new tech. If the Dark Mechanicus is providing daemon engines, surely some fancy heavy weapon could be arranged.

But I also like the idea of Obliterators being great again, too. (I hate that Centurions exist, and became Obliterators ++ for Loyalists.)



How to make Chaos great again. Trump rhetoric? :)

"You know I have people call me up. I have people call me up all the time and say; "I like the way you handle Chaos." Let me tell you. I say that were going to make a beautiful new book for Chaos. It's going to have all the wargear. It's going to have all the new units. Better units, better than before. And it's going to be tremendous!"

A.T.
25-06-2016, 21:19
I tend towards the idea that Chaos either has old stuff, or looted stuff for the mainstay of its forces. Which is one of the reasons I like the Heavy Flamer.Though heavy flamers are neither old nor looted. Only salamanders use them in the heresy rules, they traditionally were not carried by marine infantry outside of specialist units until GW decided they needed something extra in the blood angels box.

Gameplay wise i'm also not sure what the huge attraction is of them, particularly with the mixed template rules gimping 1 flamer/1 heavy flamer squads?

Scammel
25-06-2016, 21:29
Yeah? I'm less inclined towards that angle, thematically. I tend towards the idea that Chaos either has old stuff, or looted stuff for the mainstay of its forces. Which is one of the reasons I like the Heavy Flamer. But since you mentioned Blastmasters, I love that stuff to for the Cult troops. I could be swayed, surely, for some daemonic heavy weapon or new tech. If the Dark Mechanicus is providing daemon engines, surely some fancy heavy weapon could be arranged.

I'm of the opposite persuasion, my personal Christmas-land rewrite would see Imperial tech move to Havocs as jealously-guarded relics or extremely specialist kit. Meanwhile, other units would have more cheap-and-cheerful stuff put out by the Dark Mechanicus (with sorcery and Daemonology used as shortcuts for advanced tech), and more tailored to the specific necessities of the Long War. Loyalists must be prepared for any eventuality, whilst Chaos Marines will be focused on planetary landings, siege warfare, and ritualistic killing. Flame templates, Ld penalties, Shred and Gets Hot, rather than high-strength, low-AP, low-volume guns.

insectum7
25-06-2016, 23:15
Though heavy flamers are neither old nor looted. Only salamanders use them in the heresy rules, they traditionally were not carried by marine infantry outside of specialist units until GW decided they needed something extra in the blood angels box.

Gameplay wise i'm also not sure what the huge attraction is of them, particularly with the mixed template rules gimping 1 flamer/1 heavy flamer squads?

I thought Heavy Flamers were/are a fairly common option on IG tanks, no? They were an upgrade/swap for heavy bolters for a long time AFAIK. I didn't mean common as they were commonly fielded on heresy marines, just common as they're around in general.

Yeah it's a specialist sort of kit, but it's a nice distinction from loyalist marines. Good for bullying lesser troops.


I'm of the opposite persuasion, my personal Christmas-land rewrite would see Imperial tech move to Havocs as jealously-guarded relics or extremely specialist kit. Meanwhile, other units would have more cheap-and-cheerful stuff put out by the Dark Mechanicus (with sorcery and Daemonology used as shortcuts for advanced tech), and more tailored to the specific necessities of the Long War. Loyalists must be prepared for any eventuality, whilst Chaos Marines will be focused on planetary landings, siege warfare, and ritualistic killing. Flame templates, Ld penalties, Shred and Gets Hot, rather than high-strength, low-AP, low-volume guns.

I can get behind all that too, I suppose. I like both the ramshackle aesthetic and the chaos-infused one as well. As long as it feels organic, tbh.

A.T.
25-06-2016, 23:39
I thought Heavy Flamers were/are a fairly common option on IG tanks, no?Yes - very common vehicle/terminator mounted. A bit like assault cannons in that they were everywhere except carried by infantry (ruleswise it was exclusive to the sisters until 5th edition, then started popping up on veteran units).

TheBearminator
26-06-2016, 00:05
"You know I have people call me up. I have people call me up all the time and say; "I like the way you handle Chaos." Let me tell you. I say that were going to make a beautiful new book for Chaos. It's going to have all the wargear. It's going to have all the new units. Better units, better than before. And it's going to be tremendous!"

And the Mexicans are gonna pay for it! :)

Kakapo42
26-06-2016, 00:12
Well I did post a fairly big write-up of what I'd like to see happen for Chaos Space Marines, but the thread it was on seems to have been eaten by Warseer. I'm not entirely sure this is the right place for it, since this seems to be more about Chaos in general rather than just Chaos Space Marines, so suffice to say that I think the key to a good Chaos Space Marine codex is options and combustibility, which I'd bring in through Veteran Skills (instead of Chapter Tactics), customisable Daemon Weapons and Land-Raiders, bringing back missing wargear options from the 3.5 codex (like Spiky Bitz), reintroducing marks for vehicles, making cult status an upgrade and tinkering with a few other rules.

I also don't want to see the Chaos models updated. I love the current older ones, and really have no fondness for the newer ones. I didn't like the DV models then and I don't like them now (and yes I am utterly certain that is the direction basic Chaos Space Marines would go in. GW's current design philosophy is 'bigger' followed by 'more'). I'd much rather see the current Chaos Space Marine kit recut to include any missing options, a 'warp corruption' upgrade sprue with add on bits for making DV style models for those who want that, and the Dreadnought and Daemon Engines updated to be much closer in style to the older Chaos Dreadnought and Defiler models respectively (oh and a new Raptor Kit painstakingly modelled after the awesome 3.5 edition versions too please). As a prospective Chaos Space Marines player, I would be interested in starting a Chaos army if the early 2000s era models stayed. I would not be interested in building one around newer versions.

I also don't really want to see Chaos get heavy flamers, since I'd rather those stayed primarily as something extra to make Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard special. I'd also be happy to see them become more restricted in loyalist Space Marine armies as well for the same reason.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing as an extra weapon option for Chaos Space Marines however is demo charges. It seems to fit with the themes of using more readily available, reliable and relatively simple but effective equipment (between their use by Imperial Guard veterans and them being a standard tool for demolition work, I imagine they'd be relatively easy to obtain for a Chaos Space Marine warband) and brutal wanton destruction, it would give them a weapon option loyalist Space Marines don't have, and give Chaos Space Marines some extra template firepower. You could have it that one member of a Chaos Space Marine squad can be made a bombardier/demo expert/whatever and get a supply of demo charges for the battle (making them unlimited use), and can also use them as a S8 AP2 close combat weapon against vehicles, buildings and monstrous creatures. You could even have some fun with the option to upgrade them to explode with things like virulent toxic pus, boiling blood and ichor or arcane warp-fire.

Zustiur
27-06-2016, 05:31
If someone made a fandex for chaos space marines and it was done well, would any of you actually use it?

sent via tapatalk

ashc
27-06-2016, 07:01
If someone made a fandex for chaos space marines and it was done well, would any of you actually use it?

sent via tapatalk

Many have tried, none have succeeded. People need officiality too much.

Tarrell
27-06-2016, 08:02
A Chaos Spacemarine walks into a bar,
The bartender asks; "Something seems different about you, new weapon?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "Armour?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "...Helmet?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "...new...vehicle?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "Well something is different?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "New paint job"

Zustiur
28-06-2016, 15:14
Many have tried, none have succeeded. People need officiality too much.
I find that very sad. I'd be interested in writing the codex if I thought anyone would make use of it.

sent via tapatalk

Denny
28-06-2016, 15:57
A Chaos Spacemarine walks into a bar,
The bartender asks; "Something seems different about you, new weapon?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "Armour?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "...Helmet?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "...new...vehicle?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "No"
The bartender asks; "Well something is different?"
Chaos Spacemaine; "New paint job"

He should have asked whether there were new giant daemonic dinosaurs with ectoplasma cannons for faces.

blackcherry
28-06-2016, 16:50
He should have asked whether there were new giant daemonic dinosaurs with ectoplasma cannons for faces.

"Or as I call them, an easy lay!" "Ami right or what? Eh, eh?"

*makes suggestive gesticulations as a drunk comedy crowd claps*

TheEmperorsTarot
01-07-2016, 02:54
Honestly, I think Codex: Chaos Space Marines needs to be completely demolished and remade from the ground up. It was forever ruined by the Gav Thorpe codex, and it seems like they've been playing catch-up ever since.

Herkamer63
02-07-2016, 03:38
I didn't read the most recent posts, so I'm shooting from the hip here. To me, like codex adeptus Astartes, put all the chaos armies under Codex: Chaos forces, or something to that extent. Next come the individual army books under that banner.

For individual codices: have the big CSM codex, and have something similar to chapter traits (I can't stress that enough), with a supplement similar to Angels of Death but call it like Chaos Traitors or something.

Chaos Daemons is pretty self explanatory, but with new Greater Daemon model variants.

Finished Daemonkin codices!

Finally, and this will sound odd, do IG and give them an option for traitor guard. Maybe not as an individual codex, but a 2nd way to play them. That's my 2 cents on all that. How'd I do?

Lord Damocles
02-07-2016, 09:39
Traitor Guard literally already have a list. (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Imperial-Armour-Volume-Thirteen-War-Machines-of-the-Lost-and-the-Damned)

Fangschrecken
03-07-2016, 16:00
It would be nice to get an army book for traitor guard that is sold everywhere and not just from forgeworld.

I have no issue with people using forgeworld stuff, but getting the rules is annoying.

murgel2006
03-07-2016, 17:37
Traitor Guard literally already have a list. (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Imperial-Armour-Volume-Thirteen-War-Machines-of-the-Lost-and-the-Damned)


It would be nice to get an army book for traitor guard that is sold everywhere and not just from forgeworld.

I have no issue with people using forgeworld stuff, but getting the rules is annoying.

Agreed. I love the forgeworld stuff and they have made a pretty penny from me the last few years, contrary to GW BUT the rules stuff is ridiculously overpriced, even taking the high quality into account.
Frankly they need to provide something like the gamers edition (iPad) for their stuff. AND bring up updates etc. soon after GW makes releases. I'm still waiting for the 40k flyer stats etc.

Daenerys Targaryen
03-07-2016, 20:24
It would be nice to get an army book for traitor guard that is sold everywhere and not just from forgeworld.

I have no issue with people using forgeworld stuff, but getting the rules is annoying.
Exactly this.
Why should I have to shell out $200 for Traitor Guard rules, just because GW love to feth over Chaos players in general?

The Forgeworld stuff can stay, but why can't we have a simple upgrade as an option in the IG codex that say removes Orders, but then makes the army Battle Bro's with CSM's/Daemons/Khornekin?!
The IA:13 and/or updated Vraks books would still have their use, since you can get 'marked' units and such, but for the majority of us lowly masses who either can't legally get access to the FW rules and/or play in locals that still vehemently oppose ANYTHING Forge World related, we can at long last have some god-damned Traitor masses after only 12+ years of the middle finger from GW.

Lord Damocles
03-07-2016, 20:38
Why can't I have Chaos Guard without any Chaos in them?!?

:eyebrows:

insectum7
03-07-2016, 21:02
Exactly this.
Why should I have to shell out $200 for Traitor Guard rules, just because GW love to feth over Chaos players in general?

The Forgeworld stuff can stay, but why can't we have a simple upgrade as an option in the IG codex that say removes Orders, but then makes the army Battle Bro's with CSM's/Daemons/Khornekin?!
The IA:13 and/or updated Vraks books would still have their use, since you can get 'marked' units and such, but for the majority of us lowly masses who either can't legally get access to the FW rules and/or play in locals that still vehemently oppose ANYTHING Forge World related, we can at long last have some god-damned Traitor masses after only 12+ years of the middle finger from GW.

I tend to agree, FW books are very expensive, esp. considering that just normal codexes are already at a price that discourages purchasing them casually. It wouldn't take much to grant IG allies to a Chaos army. Swapping Orders for Allies is a nice little trade too.


Why can't I have Chaos Guard without any Chaos in them?!?

:eyebrows:

Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying with this, to be honest. The idea is simply to have the current two accessible codexes to function closely together, as far as I can tell.

It's obviously not impossible to put both into an army as Desperate Allies, it's an army combo that people can use. But for flavor the option of having Chaos models commandeering traitor guard would be great to see.

Abbadonsrighthand
06-07-2016, 18:06
Why is chaos seemingly the only faction where we have to trade something decent to get a slightly fluffy rule

Daenerys Targaryen
07-07-2016, 01:56
Why is chaos seemingly the only faction where we have to trade something decent to get a slightly fluffy rule
There would be nothing wrong with doing IG in a way that you can trade out the Orders system + the regular relics, for a new set of 'blasphemous artifacts' + 'treat IoM as CtA & Chaos as BB's'.

It's simply giving a decent choice...
If you want all the goodies of what are effectively the 'marks of Chaos' for traitor guard + all the mutant/zombie/heretical goodness, then play R&H's.
If you can't viably get FW rules and/or have a local that still are a bunch of whiney little idiots regarding FW rules, then you've got Traitor IG who might not have Orders, but will have a craptone more potential upgrades & waaaaay better MSU abuses than R&H's. (and the 40k equivalent of an over-sized tactical nuke... ;) )

Abbadonsrighthand
07-07-2016, 05:14
I mean why can't traitor guard still have orders? If for example we cant have atsknf why cant we have weapons and units that will wipe loyalists off the table

Daenerys Targaryen
07-07-2016, 14:15
I mean why can't traitor guard still have orders? If for example we cant have atsknf why cant we have weapons and units that will wipe loyalists off the table
Orders and rigidly adhered to command structures really don't fit the basic character of a traitor force. Chaos is all about being selfish & power hungry.

Besides, we can't simply be "IG+1 AND Chaos allies!"... There has to be a trade-off for going over to the dark side.
Hence, making an IG army more close combat capable, (ie: anyone can access pistol/ccw, more synergies through better psychic tricks, more 'killy' relics, etc...), means that a simple & fluffy balance would be to remove the Orders system, and thus, make Traitors +combat/-shooting, while IG are +shooting/-combat.

It's not about making the Chaos version 'Imperials but worse', it's about keeping things balanced and ensuring there's a marked difference between loyalists vs. traitors!
Besides, IG as they are don't entirely fall to pieces without Orders. Yes it makes their shooting worse, but it doesn't fundamentally break them. Unlike in the way that Chapter Tactics vs. paying for a lesser version of them currently makes CSM's into Loyalists -10!

Dark Primus
10-07-2016, 21:15
I would like GW to make codexes based upon other Chaos Space Marine Legions that are never featured in the codex. For example the Iron Warriors,

Abbadonsrighthand
10-07-2016, 22:57
Orders and rigidly adhered to command structures really don't fit the basic character of a traitor force. Chaos is all about being selfish & power hungry.

Besides, we can't simply be "IG+1 AND Chaos allies!"... There has to be a trade-off for going over to the dark side.
Hence, making an IG army more close combat capable, (ie: anyone can access pistol/ccw, more synergies through better psychic tricks, more 'killy' relics, etc...), means that a simple & fluffy balance would be to remove the Orders system, and thus, make Traitors +combat/-shooting, while IG are +shooting/-combat.

It's not about making the Chaos version 'Imperials but worse', it's about keeping things balanced and ensuring there's a marked difference between loyalists vs. traitors!
Besides, IG as they are don't entirely fall to pieces without Orders. Yes it makes their shooting worse, but it doesn't fundamentally break them. Unlike in the way that Chapter Tactics vs. paying for a lesser version of them currently makes CSM's into Loyalists -10!

Actually orders are a big thing or as seen in the renegades list the army just becomes artillery spam

A.T.
11-07-2016, 00:05
Actually orders are a big thing or as seen in the renegades list the army just becomes artillery spamRenegades don't spam artillery because they lack orders - they spam artillery because they pay next to nothing for it and get a variety of artillery-based bonuses.

thanoson
11-07-2016, 01:43
I miss the non human chaos potential. Warbands made of various alien units would be nice. Maybe one 0-3 choices in something besides human cultist/marines. I liked that mutations were actually on models.

blackcherry
11-07-2016, 10:38
I miss the non human chaos potential. Warbands made of various alien units would be nice. Maybe one 0-3 choices in something besides human cultist/marines. I liked that mutations were actually on models.

You could just make models yourselves and use them as cultists/spawn etc.

The opportunity is there, you just have to seize it without expecting GW to create the kit for you (though I suppose you could use any of the many alien kits GW produce for the alien mercenaries in your force...).

A.T.
11-07-2016, 10:57
There are always the classics - chaos beastmen.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NL/Gors

Chaos androids using necron models, and chaos squats which I suppose you forgeworlds infernal guard fireglaives for.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-07-2016, 13:47
No.1 necessity that needs to happen in order to give Chaos any justice at all; Keep Jervis the **** away from the project at all costs!!
Seriously, lock that idiot in a sound-proofed closet and throw away the key until after the new book has been printed & shipped.

Everything that's currently wrong with Chaos is because of him and his moronic belief that to make CSM's 'different' means that they have to be Marines -10 in every which way.

A.T.
12-07-2016, 14:33
Jervis?

Not that I mind the idea of him staying away from 40k, from all accounts he is philosophically opposed to clearly written and balanced rules, but I wasn't aware of any involvement with the faction since 2nd/3rd edition - he spent that long stretch in specialist games for a start.

daveNYC
12-07-2016, 15:28
Orders and rigidly adhered to command structures really don't fit the basic character of a traitor force. Chaos is all about being selfish & power hungry.

Besides, we can't simply be "IG+1 AND Chaos allies!"... There has to be a trade-off for going over to the dark side.
Hence, making an IG army more close combat capable, (ie: anyone can access pistol/ccw, more synergies through better psychic tricks, more 'killy' relics, etc...), means that a simple & fluffy balance would be to remove the Orders system, and thus, make Traitors +combat/-shooting, while IG are +shooting/-combat.

It's not about making the Chaos version 'Imperials but worse', it's about keeping things balanced and ensuring there's a marked difference between loyalists vs. traitors!
Besides, IG as they are don't entirely fall to pieces without Orders. Yes it makes their shooting worse, but it doesn't fundamentally break them. Unlike in the way that Chapter Tactics vs. paying for a lesser version of them currently makes CSM's into Loyalists -10!

Eh... Chaos is about a lot of things, some of which involve selfishness and being power hungry. Even the Word Bearers series, the most two-dimensional moustache twirling bad guys ever put to paper managed to not stab each other in the back until there was actually a clear cut reason to do so. Not to mention that there probably wouldn't be much difference between traitor guard and IG as far as operations go. Heck, discipline might even be stronger in traitor units. Consider the worst possible punishment that a commissar can dish out, and then compare that to what your average Alpha Legion (or God forbid Night Lord) guy can come up with.

When you talk about making Traitor Guard better at close combat and worse at shooting, all I can think is a force that combines Ork shooting with Eldar CC ability.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-07-2016, 17:43
Jervis?

Not that I mind the idea of him staying away from 40k, from all accounts he is philosophically opposed to clearly written and balanced rules, but I wasn't aware of any involvement with the faction since 2nd/3rd edition - he spent that long stretch in specialist games for a start.
It may have been Thorpe's & Kelly's names on the final product, but the whole massive shift of turning CSM's from uniquely flavourful Legions into a clusterfethed gakstorm of "Legions + Renegades + Dark Mech but really none of anything!", was entirely Jervis' decision...
He was convinced (and even admitted in WD & at a couple GD's), that the 3.5ed codex was entirely wrong, and it made CSM's both too confusing to the 'average' player, while also being far too over powered.
So we got blanderised again, and went back to the hollow shell that was based off of our original 3rd ed codex, and then, barely a year later, lo and behold, ALL those over powered & confusing rules that just needed to be stripped away to make Chaos playable, were handed out like candy to Loyalists, because... "**** Chaos" in Jervis' book apparently...

People may rag on Kelly for doing nothing with the current book, but when you then go and look at what he did with Daemons, which despite being the second oldest book now, are still a low upper tier army, it's pretty clear that it wasn't really his fault (nor really Gav's) that CSM are as royally screwed over as they've long remained.
Our "current" book is still essentially a 3rd edition army for the most part, still trying to play assault-based Rhino rush (despite the fact the core rules haven't allowed for that in over 4 years now!), but with 4th/5th edition pts costs.

And it's all because Jervis thinks that the only way to ensure Chaos Marines remain 'different' from Loyalists, and not just "Loyalists but with spikes", is to keep the poor Chaos Marines 4 editions out of date with the rest of game.

Cybtroll
12-07-2016, 18:08
I bath myself in the tears of chaos worshipper.

Seriously, don't know about the internal dynamics within the studio. But it strikes me as odd and unprofessional the fact that a designer may prefer something in his game over something else.
I don't.think this could be accurate.

A.T.
12-07-2016, 18:32
So we got blanderised again, and went back to the hollow shell that was based off of our original 3rd ed codex, and then, barely a year later, lo and behold, ALL those over powered & confusing rules that just needed to be stripped away to make Chaos playable, were handed out like candy to Loyalists, because... "**** Chaos" in Jervis' book apparently...So what strikes me as weird here is that this 'blanderising' of chaos somehow managed to seep backwards in time and strike the dark angels codex.

Kelly has actually stated it was a overarching phase GW was going through with the Dark Angels as the test bed, which was ultimately abandoned as a bad idea after a couple of books (the blood angels were also caught in its net for what it's worth). It's in the comments section of one of his chaos articles.

You would think that something like that from Jervis would come up on a google search, particularly given his reputed "if you want concise rules you aren't my target audience" attitude. While the suggestion that 3.5 was both confusing and overpowered is correct it would be interesting to read - which white dwarf was it in?

A.T.
12-07-2016, 18:54
googles for a bit.

Apparently in Jan 2008 (Warpcon, Ireland) Jervis was talking about doing Legion books for 40k, and stated that he felt the Lost and Damned theme was unsuited to games outside of apocalypse.
Apoc rules, chaos legion codex - "if we're going to do things, we're going to do them right."

Interesting Q&A replies from Warpcon actually as it correlates to what Phil Kelly was saying in his post about the 4e book being written as part of a larger release which would have seen legion book expansions being released for it.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?179333-So-I-was-just-at-a-Q-amp-A-with-Jervis-Johnson&


Obviously with hindsight the legion expansions never happened. Poor sales perhaps - either way it seems that Jervis "**** Chaos" Johnson was pushing for them at the time.

Cybtroll
12-07-2016, 19:23
I played Dark Angel during those times.
Somehow, when a good codex came out, I felt dirty while using it.
Maybe a well - though after effect planned through years to make me feel the angst of my army.

Then I remember that I usually over think.

thanoson
13-07-2016, 02:01
You could just make models yourselves and use them as cultists/spawn etc.

The opportunity is there, you just have to seize it without expecting GW to create the kit for you (though I suppose you could use any of the many alien kits GW produce for the alien mercenaries in your force...).

Yeah, it could work. But where's my beastmen, Chaos ogryn's and other races that were corrupted by chaos? It wasn't just humans and marines. Hell, it's hard to find any marines or humans with actual mutations anymore. Just spikes and a hood or mask. Hell, I'd take a mutant and big mutant statline and be fine with up to 2 stats can be increased by +1 for x amount of points. All model may take one ability from a list. Say, rending, adamantium will, 6+ invul or some such thing. That would help with the diversity of spikey dudes in power armour or cultist.

Lord Damocles
13-07-2016, 07:25
Chaos ogryns
[mutter mutter] Literally a thing [mutter mutter]

blackcherry
13-07-2016, 08:09
Yeah, it could work. But where's my beastmen, Chaos ogryn's and other races that were corrupted by chaos? It wasn't just humans and marines. Hell, it's hard to find any marines or humans with actual mutations anymore. Just spikes and a hood or mask. Hell, I'd take a mutant and big mutant statline and be fine with up to 2 stats can be increased by +1 for x amount of points. All model may take one ability from a list. Say, rending, adamantium will, 6+ invul or some such thing. That would help with the diversity of spikey dudes in power armour or cultist.

Yeah, those things exist already if you want them. Or just count them as Chaos Spawn. Jobs a goodun.

daveNYC
13-07-2016, 08:25
So what strikes me as weird here is that this 'blanderising' of chaos somehow managed to seep backwards in time and strike the dark angels codex.

Kelly has actually stated it was a overarching phase GW was going through with the Dark Angels as the test bed, which was ultimately abandoned as a bad idea after a couple of books (the blood angels were also caught in its net for what it's worth). It's in the comments section of one of his chaos articles.

You would think that something like that from Jervis would come up on a google search, particularly given his reputed "if you want concise rules you aren't my target audience" attitude. While the suggestion that 3.5 was both confusing and overpowered is correct it would be interesting to read - which white dwarf was it in?

3.5 wasn't that confusing. Certainly more confusing than the 4e codex, that thing was so simplified that a 10 year old could probably have slapped together a valid list, but there wasn't much in the book that wasn't clear enough on the first or second reading. Legions each had a page or two of rules, with a table for unit limitations and small sections within each legion section covering weapons restrictions. Nothing that a little formatting improvement wouldn't help with. The trickiest bit was the rules for daemonic gifts changing your mandude into a daemon prince. X points and above (60? 90?) and he was a daemon prince, which meant a different (larger) model. Otherwise, it wasn't that confusing a book.

Honestly, I think the various FOC changes (CAD, unbound, formations containing detachments containing formations) are more annoying to deal with than an armory and gifts list that goes for three pages. Three glorious pages of all sorts of awesome things you could slather on your characters. Heck, with the random table stuff that's been added to both the CSM and Daemon books, it's not like the amount of model level bookkeeping was out of line.

A.T.
13-07-2016, 09:58
3.5 wasn't that confusing.Confusing for opponents.
Each unit was a composite of wargear, marks, icons, veteran skills, gifts, mutations, banners, arbitrary restrictions, minor psychic powers, and legion rules and special equipment.

Generally speaking when you saw a 3e army across the table you would have a pretty idea of what it was capable of if you had played them before.
With CSM the capabilities varied drastically from game to game. They had what, a dozen pages of units and two dozen pages of additional special rules?

Scammel
13-07-2016, 12:27
Confusing for opponents.
Each unit was a composite of wargear, marks, icons, veteran skills, gifts, mutations, banners, arbitrary restrictions, minor psychic powers, and legion rules and special equipment.

Generally speaking when you saw a 3e army across the table you would have a pretty idea of what it was capable of if you had played them before.
With CSM the capabilities varied drastically from game to game. They had what, a dozen pages of units and two dozen pages of additional special rules?

That otherwise normal-looking Chaos Lord with a tentacle? Yeah, he's a Daemon Prince. The book was glorious but opponent-unfriendly in the worst way.

SilentHunter
13-07-2016, 13:53
$220-$320 worth of books to make chaos great again, they could make one really good book that allows larger unit sizes and reduce costs on many models or slighty boost the choices we currently have with 1 or 2 new unique choices.

Abbadonsrighthand
13-07-2016, 14:05
Personally I think our best hope is formations but csm are fine for casual play

daveNYC
14-07-2016, 13:46
Confusing for opponents.
Each unit was a composite of wargear, marks, icons, veteran skills, gifts, mutations, banners, arbitrary restrictions, minor psychic powers, and legion rules and special equipment.

Generally speaking when you saw a 3e army across the table you would have a pretty idea of what it was capable of if you had played them before.
With CSM the capabilities varied drastically from game to game. They had what, a dozen pages of units and two dozen pages of additional special rules?

WYSIWYG on the models and a nicely printed out army list help alleviate that issue. The current game has Chapter Tactics for SM, Daemons rolling for wargear, possessed rolling for special rules every turn, and everyone rolling for psyker powers. Seemingly similar armies that play differently with special rules, and units and models that behave differently from game to game or even turn to turn are already around.

Keeping track of which Alpha Legion cultists had infiltrate and which ones had sabotage (or whatever the choices were) might be slightly more annoying, but it's not coming out of left field, and it's not something that can't be overcome by a little preparedness by the CSM player. Have an army list, don't be TFG with your models, make sure that people can see what's up.

Theocracity
14-07-2016, 14:04
WYSIWYG on the models and a nicely printed out army list help alleviate that issue. The current game has Chapter Tactics for SM, Daemons rolling for wargear, possessed rolling for special rules every turn, and everyone rolling for psyker powers. Seemingly similar armies that play differently with special rules, and units and models that behave differently from game to game or even turn to turn are already around.

Keeping track of which Alpha Legion cultists had infiltrate and which ones had sabotage (or whatever the choices were) might be slightly more annoying, but it's not coming out of left field, and it's not something that can't be overcome by a little preparedness by the CSM player. Have an army list, don't be TFG with your models, make sure that people can see what's up.

That is a good point. And that's not even taking into account the difference in special rules between a unit in X formation and an identical one that wasn't taken as part of the formation. There does seem to be some design space in that kind of an environment for the 3.5 take on Chaos - though whether the current environment is a good thing for the game as a whole is a different question.

I do think we're not likely to see a real Chaos revision until after 8th edition, as GW seems to be treading water codex-wise until then. Though the upcoming Thousand Sons release should give Chaos some love to hold things over.

A.T.
14-07-2016, 14:20
The current game has...The current game is a mess - you could make up rules on the fly and even a fairly frequent player wouldn't be able to pick out which rules were real.

Frankly 3.5 would fit right in these days.

Comrade Penguin
14-07-2016, 17:30
The current game is a mess - you could make up rules on the fly and even a fairly frequent player wouldn't be able to pick out which rules were real.

Frankly 3.5 would fit right in these days.

100% agreed. 3.5 at least had all of the rules in one place, so if I had a regular chaos opponent I could familiarize myself with that book. Now you have rules and formations spread out all over the place, and I have to just take it on my opponent's good word that his marines can assault out of deep strikes.

Lord Damocles
14-07-2016, 19:21
...and I have to just take it on my opponent's good word that his marines can assault out of deep strikes.
I mean, you could check his rules... ?

It's not like current rules are visible only to the person using them.

Comrade Penguin
14-07-2016, 19:56
I mean, you could check his rules... ?

It's not like current rules are visible only to the person using them.

I've had more than a few games where my opponent was using an online dataslate or formation and did not have the rules on them. I guess I could have went hunting online to try and download them.

Also it is kinda of a tool move to second guess my opponent's rules. I try to avoid doing this in casual settings unless something seems really off.

Daenerys Targaryen
14-07-2016, 23:21
100% agreed. 3.5 at least had all of the rules in one place, so if I had a regular chaos opponent I could familiarize myself with that book. Now you have rules and formations spread out all over the place, and I have to just take it on my opponent's good word that his marines can assault out of deep strikes.
It's really most of the sheer hypocrisy of it all...
3.5ed was "too complex to understand & too over powered in game play", and hence, Jervis wanted everything dumbed down to the level that a drooling 8 year old could build an army.
Eldar had already been finished, and then Jervis went behind Kelly's back and re-wrote the whole damn thing to fit his glorious new vision of "40k for Dummies". Then Dark Angels & CSM's got "Jervised", while BA's ended up with that farce of WD 'get you by' codex that Jervis penned... Of course, no one liked these changes in any way, and the complaints were very vocal and constant.

So then a little over a year after the CSM disaster, (which was basically just a re-write of Jervis' 3rd edition CSM codex), the new Ultrasmurf book came out, and lo and behold, all the cool toys & fluffy rules that had been denied to CSM, DA & BA players, were suddenly A-Okay for the Vanillas!
It wouldn't have been so bad had GW at least made good on the next book for Chaos, but instead, we get to keep the Jervis style codex, because... "reasons."

Nowadays, while Chaos players are still stuck playing a 3rd edition style army with 5th ed pts costing, Loyalists get to build armies of 3-4 different Chapters and/or crap free transports out of their power armour. Worst of all is how now we get to endure "Blue Marines" or "Red Marines", etc..., that instead change their Chapter rules every single game, because why the hell not!?
In comparison, at least back in the 3.5ed days, you could look at a CSM army and know roughly what Iron Warriors would be, or else that Alpha Legion would have Cultists that could be either A/B/C and so on...
Loyalists on the other hand are now some ungodly mess of Ultra-White-Marine-Space-Scar-Wolves.

A.T.
15-07-2016, 00:22
*rant*Jervis was not in the writing credits of either the CSM book or the 4e eldar.
He was an author on the DA/BA books and the 4e chaos daemons (and possibly the orks, I don't have it to hand).

I don't understand your sudden obsession with the guy.



Nowadays, while Chaos players are still stuck playing a 3rd edition style army with 5th ed pts costingChaos are the prototypical 6th edition army - if there was a bingo card for 6e they'd be a couple of squares short of the full house.

Daenerys Targaryen
15-07-2016, 01:06
Jervis was not in the writing credits of either the CSM book or the 4e eldar.
He was an author on the DA/BA books and the 4e chaos daemons (and possibly the orks, I don't have it to hand).

I don't understand your sudden obsession with the guy.


Chaos are the prototypical 6th edition army - if there was a bingo card for 6e they'd be a couple of squares short of the full house.
1. Jervis is the head of the studio. What he says goes. The whole stupid over-simplification of the Eldar/DA/CSM/BA mess was solely because he wanted everything dumbed down and made bare-bones.

Daemons were really the first true 5th edition codex, yet were released 2 months early due to piggy-backing with the Fantasy release.
If you ever tried to actually play the army under 4th edition rules, it simply didn't work at all! (hint: an all DS'ing army in the couple of months before 'Running' ever came into being... Half the 'wargear' didn't even interact with the core rules...)
And the Daemons codex was written by Allessio, while the (in)famous Fantasy book was written by Mr. "they should be OP!" Ward.

2. The current CSM codex is nothing more than a bare polishing of the 4th ed atrocity, which in itself was modeled after Jervis' own original 3rd ed CSM codex. (which was so woefully under powered that it necessitated the 3.5ed codex ahead of other armies).
It plays like it's still 3rd edition, but with pts costs that are closer to what other MEQ's paid in 4th/5th edition.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-07-2016, 02:31
I could go on about this topic at length, and have. I have a 100-page Word document filled with crunch for what would probably be the last Chaos Space Marine codex to ever need to be written, given polish.

In broad strokes, in no real order:

1) Rules a la Chapter Tactics which, combined with wargear, army list selection, formations, and play style, adequately represent the subfactions of Chaos Space Marines.

2) Rules for harnessing the power of Chaos, not yanking on the slot machine and hoping the Warp doesn't fry you today.

3) Rules and options with synergy. Our characters must challenge, but have the worst options and least capacity to challenge other characters? Give me a break.

4) Organization distinct from the loyalist template for squad setup. You know how we can have 20 guys a squad? Why do all of them have to be barebones? Could even be a sliding scale where the bugger the unit is, the higher percentage of models with upgrades to barebones there are.

5) Thought out formations and detachments, perhaps cross-pollinated with Codex:Daemons units.



6) Units that have been struggling re-imagined, like Spawn were in one of the few strokes of brilliance in Phil Kelly's book. Possessed could be an upgrade to a squad that manifests in the Fight phase to give some models extra punch, instead of being their own unit.

7) Viable delivery options like Drop Pods and decent Land Raiders, Icons as teleport homers, and mitigation against being swept.

8) Re-imagined Icons, Marks, and Cult upgrades across the list that form a synergistic, three-tiered system of devotion to Gods which creates a specialized, expensive, very good unit by the end of it.

9) Since each special and unique snowflake Chapter of loyalists gets their own psychic discipline, along with four new disciplines for loyalists as a whole and whichever rulebook disciplines allowed to their Codex, I want full, well-thought-out disciplines for each God and a general Chaos discipline aside from Malefic. Along with other ways to make our Psychic warfare unique- forcing more Perils on enemy psykers, harnessing Malefic more easily than loyalists, Tzeentch psykers get multiple Psychic Foci (say, a number equal to his Mastery). Things of the like.


X points and above (60? 90?) and he was a daemon prince, which meant a different (larger) model.

Either more than 50 or if Daemonic Stature was taken at all (ergo a suitably mutated, regular-sized Lord could be a Daemon Prince). A different time.

A.T.
15-07-2016, 10:05
The whole stupid over-simplification of the Eldar/DA/CSM/BA mess was solely because he wanted everything dumbed down and made bare-bones.Article from the time period in question - https://loquenosgusta.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/entrevista-con-jervis-johson/

There is no question that the direction GW took with the DA codex turned out to be unpopular but you need to try and recognise the difference between a balance attempt gone wrong and actual malice. Particularly given the replacement strategy was the rampant one-upmanship of 5th edition and Matt Ward.



It plays like it's still 3rd edition, but with pts costs that are closer to what other MEQ's paid in 4th/5th edition.I'd say the CSM points costs are somewhere around late 5th/early 6th myself.

I don't know what 'plays like 3rd edition' means, and I played an actual 3rd edition codex all the way through until the end of 5th ed. Max 3 tanks/anti-tank units per army? No flyers? 4++ saves as a 0-1 army choice? Super-elite close combat HQ with WS5, I5, and 3 attacks rolling through the opposing army one consolidation move at a time?

A.T.
15-07-2016, 10:06
2) Rules for harnessing the power of Chaos, not yanking on the slot machine and hoping the Warp doesn't fry you today.That's doesn't sound very chaotic :p

But how do you feel about the daemonkin approach - build favour to buy upgrades?

daveNYC
15-07-2016, 15:48
That's doesn't sound very chaotic :p

But how do you feel about the daemonkin approach - build favour to buy upgrades?

That's a nice system, but I'm not sure how you expand it to the other three gods. Tzeentch maybe with psyker thingies, but those aren't exactly a solid source of action, and even from a fluff standpoint it doesn't work since Tzeentch is the source of magic, not someone empowered by it. And I'm not even touching Nurgle or Slaanesh.

I dislike GW's fixation on Khorne, but I understand why they do it. Straightforward and simple, just killing and skulls.

jbeil
15-07-2016, 18:31
Select Tronald Dump as Warmaster?

Cybtroll
15-07-2016, 21:04
I don't think that the build favor to buy upgrade is a bad strategy.
In the current set anyway.

There is plenty or room to do that, from objective, to formation (number of model as usual) to mission selection or use/fail of special rules.

Nurgle, for example, could be triggered by a failed Feel No Pain (and control of specific objectives). Just saying.

Daenerys Targaryen
15-07-2016, 21:12
Article from the time period in question - https://loquenosgusta.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/entrevista-con-jervis-johson/

There is no question that the direction GW took with the DA codex turned out to be unpopular but you need to try and recognise the difference between a balance attempt gone wrong and actual malice. Particularly given the replacement strategy was the rampant one-upmanship of 5th edition and Matt Ward.


I'd say the CSM points costs are somewhere around late 5th/early 6th myself.

I don't know what 'plays like 3rd edition' means, and I played an actual 3rd edition codex all the way through until the end of 5th ed. Max 3 tanks/anti-tank units per army? No flyers? 4++ saves as a 0-1 army choice? Super-elite close combat HQ with WS5, I5, and 3 attacks rolling through the opposing army one consolidation move at a time?
http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2015/07/40k-rant-travesty-that-is-jervis-johnson.html Enjoy that little jem of Jervis' 'holier than thou' mentality of "you're doing it wrong!"


CSM's overall are still the exact same army they were in 3rd edition...
Rhino-based melee centric infantry with some generalist shooting.
We still pay for every single special rule, just like we did in 3rd.
Same old stale tactics that we've always used.

We may have a couple newer things such as the Hellchicken, but we're still just the same steaming pile of randumb, with the same stale old wargear for our infantry.

Cybtroll
15-07-2016, 21:15
I don't think that the build favor to buy upgrade is a bad strategy.
In the current set anyway.

There is plenty or room to do that, from objective, to formation (number of model as usual) to mission selection or use/fail of special rules.

Nurgle, for example, could be triggered by a failed Feel No Pain (and control of specific objectives). Just saying.

Lord Damocles
15-07-2016, 21:22
Enjoy that little jem of Jervis' 'holier than thou' mentality of "you're doing it wrong!"
I like how that blog begins, 'This is about the recent editorial from Jervis Johnson' whilst showing an issue of The J Files, which hasn't been printed for about a decade... :shifty:
EDIT: That article is from 2002 (?!)

...which includes the line, 'I'd like to underline again that I [Jervis] have nothing against tournament style games as such - I think the fact that I'm the creator of the Grand Tournament system proves this point - just that I don't want to see them becoming seen as the pinnacle of the hobby'. (!)

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-07-2016, 06:25
That's doesn't sound very chaotic :p

Depends on how you look at it. Chaos can be randumb (as it has been) or it can be a calculated risk/reward that favors the powerful. The basic mechanic for this in my Fandex is the Mastery test. It's a Leadership test with +1 for being a Daemon, having a Mark, VotLW, etc. Should the Champion of Chaos fail, or succeed on doubles, he suffers a Wound at no AP. For every Wound (saved or not) he receives a -1 penalty to his next test. This means that the more power you attempt to harness over the battle, the greater the chance of it going wrong- but because it's a test, you don't feel as though your mighty Chaos Lord threw sand in his own eyes and randomly began hitting himself for no reason like Edward Norton in Fight Club.

And it can be applied to so many mechanics. Daemon weapons, Possessed results, Crazed results, basically any of our many randumb tables, Khornates using your Warp Charge to attempt to force Perils on enemy psykers. Very fun.


But how do you feel about the daemonkin approach - build favour to buy upgrades?

I'd have to think about what game mechanics embody various Gods. Nurgle is fear, despair, and entropy- so any time you reduce the enemy's physical stats or they fail Leadership, and so on. Tzeentch could be all about harnessed Warp Charge and casualties by psychic means. Slaanesh could be casualties by noise weapons, Precision Shots/Strikes due to the perfectionist bent. Stuff like that. Khorne is so easy to quantify (deaths by shooting or chopping), but the other Gods can be... esoteric.

ApostleOfCorruption
17-07-2016, 02:58
Recruit Obama as Tzeentchian overlord to create Codex: Tzeentch Daemonkin

Change you can believe in.