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LotusCorgi
29-06-2016, 21:55
Not sure if it is possible that this hasn't been mentioned here yet, but lady Atia had a bit to say about 40k mk.VIII and the Chaos Marines.

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/913

Apologies if this is redundant or already well known and being discussed elsewhere.
-cheers!

Saunders
30-06-2016, 05:02
More vague "something is coming" talk, could support existing statements or be simple reverb. I'd like to think there's something behind the talk but we still have no proof.

Release the salt!

MajorWesJanson
30-06-2016, 06:29
It's Atia, so pretty good odds.

Tokamak
30-06-2016, 10:56
I'm fine with all of this. Horus Heresy is slowly heading towards the conclusion which makes 40k picking up the pieces again all the more fun.

Rogue Star
30-06-2016, 14:35
Provided the other factions don't get left out...

Tokamak
30-06-2016, 14:40
40k has less 'main' factions than WFB so less pruning needed.

Daenerys Targaryen
30-06-2016, 15:17
All I really want is a year and half or so process to that re-vamps our god-awful model line...

Rules be damned - I don't care about losing every game I play, but sheesh, between bad kits that are missing even bare bones options, Finecrap hybrids, and an army with no clear visual aesthetic beyond nearly 30 years of wildly varying design styles, it's painful trying to cobble together a fluffy CSM army.

Even Daemons have a better visual appeal, despite the fact its really 4 armies in one.

Rabbitden
30-06-2016, 15:22
So if the big focus will be on Chaos/Daemon Primarchs running amok on Terra is there any ideas on what the other factions will be upto? Also, if Marines (naughty and nice variants) will be getting Primarch models with supposedly Lord of War stats - what will be the shiny new xenos equivalent? Maybe more C'tan will 'wake up / be found'? or the Eldar Avatar will get a boost with new stats and a new model??

Saunders
30-06-2016, 16:11
It's Atia, so pretty good odds.

I don't recall ever seeing Atia, are there any examples of the poster's track record?

Ragnar69
30-06-2016, 17:49
The you must have been hidding under a rock ;)
Atia and sad panda are today's Harry & Hastings

I think there is a rumor tracker over at dakkadakka if you need proof

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Garanaul the Black
30-06-2016, 18:21
Atia and sad panda are today's Harry & Hastings

Truth!

All in all, I am allowing myself to be excited. It sounds like the wait is finally going to pay off!

The "renegades, FORMER LEGIONS (emphasis mine), demon lovers" line is especially encouraging!

Tokamak
30-06-2016, 19:20
So if the big focus will be on Chaos/Daemon Primarchs running amok on Terra is there any ideas on what the other factions will be upto? Also, if Marines (naughty and nice variants) will be getting Primarch models with supposedly Lord of War stats - what will be the shiny new xenos equivalent? Maybe more C'tan will 'wake up / be found'? or the Eldar Avatar will get a boost with new stats and a new model??

I'd say, give the chaos lads their attention. After such a long time they deserve it.

Kakapo42
01-07-2016, 00:45
Well looks like it's time for another relentless crushing assault on my enjoyment of the hobby. I'll probably have a nail driven into the coffin for that future Night Lords army I had been considering, and the idea that I would ever get one of my models featured in a White Dwarf or on the website. Oh well, I guess I can only blame myself for dreaming instead of aiming so low no-one would ever notice.

I do not want this news to come to pass. I do not want it at all. I hated the ET series and never wanted it to happen to 40k or Fantasy. I love those early 2000s era Chaos models. GW has not released a single new model that I have genuinely enjoyed in the last three years, and I see nothing to suggest that this will be any different. I don't want Daemon Primarchs, I don't want metaplot, I don't want any of it. I want to be happy in this hobby, but the things that make me happy in it keep going away.

*Curls up in a corner crying and muttering "didn't want this... didn't ask for this... didn't want this... didn't ask for this" over and over and over.*

murgel2006
01-07-2016, 01:19
Well looks like it's time for another relentless crushing assault on my enjoyment of the hobby. I'll probably have a nail driven into the coffin for that future Night Lords army I had been considering, and the idea that I would ever get one of my models featured in a White Dwarf or on the website. Oh well, I guess I can only blame myself for dreaming instead of aiming so low no-one would ever notice.

I do not want this news to come to pass. I do not want it at all. I hated the ET series and never wanted it to happen to 40k or Fantasy. I love those early 2000s era Chaos models. GW has not released a single new model that I have genuinely enjoyed in the last three years, and I see nothing to suggest that this will be any different. I don't want Daemon Primarchs, I don't want metaplot, I don't want any of it. I want to be happy in this hobby, but the things that make me happy in it keep going away.

*Curls up in a corner crying and muttering "didn't want this... didn't ask for this... didn't want this... didn't ask for this" over and over and over.*

Some times, the times change...
You poor little fella, all the naughty lads around you want change and you stand here alone... :angel:

I can understand your position. Many of the models I like best date back to second. But even you and me have to live through it sometimes. Although I can state on one thing for chaos. Changing the daemonetts "... has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move" :shifty:
I also like the Rank and file models for CSMs but I will give the designers the benefit...

Tokamak
01-07-2016, 12:32
End Times was fantastic. What followed was not.

Rabbitden
01-07-2016, 13:01
I agree. End Times was a great rollercoaster. Even though I don't play fantasy, reading the lore, gossip, and watching the story unfold was great stuff. Also, all the new art and mini's were very exciting. Bring on End Times for 40K (just stop before you get to the AoS part).

Rogue Star
01-07-2016, 16:49
Well so far, nothing truly setting shattering has happened - Tau Ethereal Aun'va is dead and Captain Kayvaan Shrike has become the Raven Guard Chapter Master... we eagerly await the second part of the Warzone: Fenris to see if any ore characters fall or how the story develops... at least GW are being sensible to understand how large 40K is, that they'll make steady changes with the Warzone books before opening up into this glorious new time period of active Daemon-Primarchs.


So if the big focus will be on Chaos/Daemon Primarchs running amok on Terra is there any ideas on what the other factions will be upto? Also, if Marines (naughty and nice variants) will be getting Primarch models with supposedly Lord of War stats - what will be the shiny new xenos equivalent? Maybe more C'tan will 'wake up / be found'? or the Eldar Avatar will get a boost with new stats and a new model??

We don't even know if they're running amok on Terra, we just know that the Astronomicon, has been waning and flicking and now ebbing to such a point that the residents of the Eye of Terror can see the Emperor's life-support is about to fail... so the fallen angels are coming home to pay their last respects... :evilgrin:

Garanaul the Black
01-07-2016, 17:30
Well looks like it's time for another relentless crushing assault on my enjoyment of the hobby. I'll probably have a nail driven into the coffin for that future Night Lords army I had been considering, and the idea that I would ever get one of my models featured in a White Dwarf or on the website. Oh well, I guess I can only blame myself for dreaming instead of aiming so low no-one would ever notice.

I do not want this news to come to pass. I do not want it at all. I hated the ET series and never wanted it to happen to 40k or Fantasy. I love those early 2000s era Chaos models. GW has not released a single new model that I have genuinely enjoyed in the last three years, and I see nothing to suggest that this will be any different. I don't want Daemon Primarchs, I don't want metaplot, I don't want any of it. I want to be happy in this hobby, but the things that make me happy in it keep going away.

*Curls up in a corner crying and muttering "didn't want this... didn't ask for this... didn't want this... didn't ask for this" over and over and over.*

40K keeps the lights on at GW, I feel confident that they'll treat it with more caution and reverence than Fantasy Battle.

At the very least, try not to panic until we have some details or have a book in our hands!

Tokamak
01-07-2016, 18:31
The incessant whining about AoS might have paid off after all...

WordBearer
02-07-2016, 08:32
Maybe this'll be a series of campaigns based around Space Marine homeworlds.

After all, what would be more epic than War Zone: Fenris?

War Zone: Ultramar.

Heck, that even hints at another Daemon Primarch with an axe to grind...

Rogue Star
02-07-2016, 15:14
Maybe this'll be a series of campaigns based around Space Marine homeworlds.

After all, what would be more epic than War Zone: Fenris?

War Zone: Ultramar.

Heck, that even hints at another Daemon Primarch with an axe to grind...

Actually according to the Horus Heresy series, the Primarch Lorgar Aurelian felt nothing but contempt for the Ultramarines as blindly following a False Emperor. The attack on the planet Calth was to purge his Legion of the second problem in it's ranks - the first was the removal of loyalists to the Emperor, committed slowly over the years in the build up to the Great Betrayal... the attack on Ultramar was the second, to get rid of those Word Bearers who sided with him purely to seek revenge on the Ultramarines. He sent them to Ultramar as a diversion and never intended to return for them, they were left to die. After that, all that remained were true Bearers of the Word - embracing the enlightenment of Chaos, as they marched on Terra.

So I doubt he feels any particular need to ravage Ultramar.

Saunders
02-07-2016, 16:44
Hasn't Ultramar already been busy fending off a daemonic incursion?

The Eldar are the only faction yet to be involved in any of the Warzones done so far, so it's only a matter of time before they make a move somewhere.


Hell, what would be bigger than any other conflict?

Warzone: Cadia.

Rogue Star
02-07-2016, 16:48
Speaking of Yriel, the Eldar are the only faction yet to be involved in any of the Warzones done so far, so it's only a matter of time before they make a move somewhere.

I would put good odds on plastic Phoenix Lords showing up... the Rhana Dandra is their entire deal.

Saunders
02-07-2016, 16:54
I think we've still got a little time before Rhana Dandra, but with them being so active now it would be a great opportunity to pick away at upgrading them while also putting out plastic aspect kits.

One can hope, at least.

Daenerys Targaryen
02-07-2016, 19:49
Hasn't Ultramar already been busy fending off a daemonic incursion?

The Eldar are the only faction yet to be involved in any of the Warzones done so far, so it's only a matter of time before they make a move somewhere.


Hell, what would be bigger than any other conflict?

Warzone: Cadia.
How about first off, Warzone: Armageddon?
The world is still reeling from Waaagh! Ghazghkull, and you gotta suspect there's a helluva lot more to Angron's creepy pyramid than the basic bit of soil tainting and jungle mutation...
It could introduce new plastic Berserkers (dear god those models are atrocious!), and plastic Angron himself. Plus give the Guard those plastic Greatcoats they've been begging for only 15+ years! And both IG & Orks could get some nice rules fixes.

Then perhaps a Warzone: Baal which can highlight the BA's (and ALL of their successors) & Tyranids, alongside patching up the sorry state of their rules.

THEN bring on a Warzone Cadia as the ultimate climax, tying all the other big incurrsions together!;)

Azazyll
02-07-2016, 23:32
I think the rumour this thread was about before the wishlisting inevitably set in was hinting more at something like Warzone: Terra. And I for one would love to see it. Let's put those Custodes to work!

Kakapo42
03-07-2016, 00:56
40K keeps the lights on at GW, I feel confident that they'll treat it with more caution and reverence than Fantasy Battle.

At the very least, try not to panic until we have some details or have a book in our hands!

The trouble is that's exactly what they said about the ET series and AoS (some even argued that GW would treat Fantasy with more caution and reverence since it was the system that first put GW on the map), and... well, we all know how that ended.

And while I might not have details or a book, I do have experience with previous GW releases, and there is a very distinct trend towards new ones not being something I enjoy, given that the only GW model from the past three years I've genuinely liked is the upcoming Stormbird from Forgeworld (and now that I think about it background material doesn't have a better track record - I think the last GW-published background I liked were a few small points in the 6th edition Tau codex). So odds are that these upcoming releases aren't going to be something I like, especially if it continues the metaplot they've been driving through the Warzone books recently since I am vehemently, adamantly against metaplots on principle.

So you might be able to see why I'm reluctant to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's especially serious for me because 40k is currently the only system that (barely) scratches all my hobby itches, so if it goes the ET way then I might never enjoy this hobby as much again.

Azazyll
04-07-2016, 21:01
Eh. The game gets better and it gets worse, and then it gets better again. It goes through a dry spell of two to five years, then turns around for a similar amount. Twenty years in I'm used to the pattern. I go back to rpgs in between.

Promethius
04-07-2016, 22:19
The end times nagash was great. The series got worse towards the end partly because all the toys were for destruction. End times 40k could work if it goes thirty seconds to midnight and includes good and bad releases, I want dorn and guilliman as well as Magnus and lorgar. Great to see some eldar releases as well.

Daenerys Targaryen
04-07-2016, 23:05
Imperials can wait their turn for once and at least let the poor CSM's get an updated model range first before they get any more gak...

Besides, usually the stories always go with, "Bad Guys invade in overwhelming numbers, millions of faceless mooks get slaughtered piecemeal, the Good Guys are on the very brink of defeat & death, and finally 'uber Heroes show up and save the day at the very last minute!"

Azazyll
05-07-2016, 10:32
Imperials can wait their turn for once and at least let the poor CSM's get an updated model range first before they get any more gak...

Besides, usually the stories always go with, "Bad Guys invade in overwhelming numbers, millions of faceless mooks get slaughtered piecemeal, the Good Guys are on the very brink of defeat & death, and finally 'uber Heroes show up and save the day at the very last minute!"

Except in Warhammer Fantasy. And frankly if that's what it looks like when Chaos wins, no thank you.

As to the other whining about minis, you appear to be getting Magnus first. A staggered release is assured, and if GW are smart they'd go back and forth between traitor and loyalist primarchs to encourage higher sales.

Captain Marius
05-07-2016, 20:45
Im well up for 40k End Times, just dont, yknow, end the times...

Beppo1234
05-07-2016, 21:43
I don't really want to see the narrative move forward, as much as I just want them to do something with it. The timeline doesn't really matter, just as long as 40k remains 40k. Open a new warp-rift, or continue on with the 'next phase' of the 13th BC.

just hope the demon Primarchs get the same love that the large scale fantasy models have been getting for a while now... actually, feel like 40k isn't getting anywhere near the love that the AOS models have been getting. Chaos is really the perfect candidate for that kind of sculpting love

Saunders
06-07-2016, 04:01
Imperials can wait their turn for once and at least let the poor CSM's get an updated model range first before they get any more gak...

Besides, usually the stories always go with, "Bad Guys invade in overwhelming numbers, millions of faceless mooks get slaughtered piecemeal, the Good Guys are on the very brink of defeat & death, and finally 'uber Heroes show up and save the day at the very last minute!"

You didn't get Warzone: Damocles, did you? Or Shield of Baal, for that matter?

Azazyll
06-07-2016, 11:37
You didn't get Warzone: Damocles, did you? Or Shield of Baal, for that matter?

Now now, chaoswhiner is a designated condition in the DSM5. Asking one to look at examples that don't fit their narrative of self pity just makes them agitated.

II Orar II
06-07-2016, 13:46
I think it's a terrible idea, so little of 40K has actually been explored. With an entire galaxy of stories to tell and ten thousand years of history I see absolutely nothing to gain from advancing the setting.

Abbadonsrighthand
06-07-2016, 18:04
Again whenever the story has ANYTHING to do with chaos the imperials always win. Apperently it's fine for loyalist characters to kill named chaos lords (didn't kranon get killed not long after being inrroduced) but heaven forbid chaos kills a major imperial character

Scammel
06-07-2016, 18:11
Again whenever the story has ANYTHING to do with chaos the imperials always win. Apperently it's fine for loyalist characters to kill named chaos lords (didn't kranon get killed not long after being inrroduced) but heaven forbid chaos kills a major imperial character

Magnus trumps the Wolves in Battle for the Fang and kills the Wolf Lord in the process.

Lord Damocles
06-07-2016, 18:52
Again whenever the story has ANYTHING to do with chaos the imperials always win.
Hahaha.

Dark Apostle.

Your move.

Saunders
06-07-2016, 19:26
Or we could go back to the end of GW's last attempt to forge a narrative, the 13th Black Crusade. That ended with Chaos smashing through the Cadian Gate and contesting Cadia itself.

This notion that 'imperials always win and Chaos always loses' is a fantasy.

Abbadonsrighthand
07-07-2016, 05:10
You mean how gw ret conned that campaign as imperial players got butt hurt

WordBearer
07-07-2016, 08:27
I feel like we've had this exact argument before.

Azazyll
07-07-2016, 11:51
I feel like we've had this exact argument before.

Over and over and over again. Variations of it have derailed nearly every single chaos thread, and many other threads, for years now. We get it: CSM players are upset. I used to feel sympathy, but it's just become so pervasively obnoxious (even beyond the usual "spez muhreen" haters) that I can't stand it anymore. I've seriously considered quitting warseer over it.

blackcherry
07-07-2016, 11:58
Over and over and over again. Variations of it have derailed nearly every single chaos thread, and many other threads, for years now. We get it: CSM players are upset. I used to feel sympathy, but it's just become so pervasively obnoxious (even beyond the usual "spez muhreen" haters) that I can't stand it anymore. I've seriously considered quitting warseer over it.

Please don't Azazyll. You are a small amount of calm in a sea of self loathing Chaos fanbois. As a Chaos player it annoys me, but I used to be one of them too. So I can see the evolution.

But hey, hopefully the next codex (whenever it is) will be able to help put people's minds at rest. So then those who want to play 'fluffy' Chaos forces with special powers for paintjobs can go back to playing the Space Marine codex :)

iamcjb
07-07-2016, 13:33
Please don't Azazyll. You are a small amount of calm in a sea of self loathing Chaos fanbois. As a Chaos player it annoys me, but I used to be one of them too. So I can see the evolution.

But hey, hopefully the next codex (whenever it is) will be able to help put people's minds at rest. So then those who want to play 'fluffy' Chaos forces with special powers for paintjobs can go back to playing the Space Marine codex :)
I just hope GW can decide what they want Chaos SM to be (e.g warband, VotLW, Spikey SM etc.) and do a cohesive, themed force, with several workable choices.

They could probably do all three I mentioned above in the one book, if they did something akin to the 4ed SM book where you build a chapter e.g. army bonuses and handicaps based on choice of God, HQ choice, and type of army (e.g. warband, renegades, descendants of legion, cult etc.).

II Orar II
07-07-2016, 17:39
The problem with the whole Eye or Terror thing is that if the Cadian Gate falls, the galaxy falls. The way I see it is the Maelstrom is treated as how Games Workshop originally intended the Eye or Terror. The forces within the Eye or Terror are too powerful to ever win, simply because if they did the setting would be finished. The Chaos forces in the Maelstrom however are allowed to regularly succeed in their goals by the writers because they're not large enough to pose a threat to the Imperium's existence in one fell swoop. Maybe Chaos does eventually break out of the Cadian Gate and raze the Galaxy, but I don't want some talentless writer hired on the cheap to tell me. That's the beauty of the 41st Millenium setting, it's on a knife edge. You can play your own games where Chaos invades and does succeed in conquering Cadia, as they say 'forge your own narrative'. Just because some writer decides that once again 'Chaos always loses' doesn't somehow make Chaos a less enviable faction to play as, the problem lies with the terrible codex rather than the Chaos fluff. Mediocre writers messing with the fluff has done nothing to improve the setting of the game in the past ten years.

slave
07-07-2016, 18:57
Over and over and over again. Variations of it have derailed nearly every single chaos thread, and many other threads, for years now. We get it: CSM players are upset. I used to feel sympathy, but it's just become so pervasively obnoxious (even beyond the usual "spez muhreen" haters) that I can't stand it anymore. I've seriously considered quitting warseer over it.

And over and over and over again, an entitled non CSM player complaining about CSM players whining. We have to be obnoxious, we have been screwed so many times, I can't figure out why we still play. I wonder how loud you guys would whine if you traded places with us.

Theocracity
07-07-2016, 19:14
We have to be obnoxious

Do you really though?

No one here could fix your problems even if they wanted to.


I wonder how loud you guys would whine if you traded places with us.

I've long ago lost the energy to get so vexed about these kinds of things.

Garanaul the Black
07-07-2016, 20:02
I've long ago lost the energy to get so vexed about these kinds of things.


Same here, and Chaos Marines are my main force.


I'm choosing to focus on the Lady Atia rumors, it looks like our long wait may be over relatively soon.

A.T.
07-07-2016, 20:53
I wonder how loud you guys would whine if you traded places with us.Well nobody has started any "GW hates inquisition/sisters/orks/BA/nids/guard/etc" posts recently. And there was that poll a few months back where chaos repondants were recorded as '54% whiny', a fair distance ahead of the second place tyranids at 38%.

I think the sheer number of CSM players factor into it though, second only to loyalists (and quite probably more as a whole than any single faction of marines) - even if only 1% bitch and whine all the time that's more players than entire smaller factions have.

slave
08-07-2016, 01:28
Well nobody has started any "GW hates inquisition/sisters/orks/BA/nids/guard/etc" posts recently. And there was that poll a few months back where chaos repondants were recorded as '54% whiny', a fair distance ahead of the second place tyranids at 38%.

I think the sheer number of CSM players factor into it though, second only to loyalists (and quite probably more as a whole than any single faction of marines) - even if only 1% bitch and whine all the time that's more players than entire smaller factions have.

Tyranid players are just as loud. This is fun. SM/Eldar players afraid they will lose the IWIN button!

Kakapo42
08-07-2016, 02:29
Maybe Chaos does eventually break out of the Cadian Gate and raze the Galaxy, but I don't want some talentless writer hired on the cheap to tell me. That's the beauty of the 41st Millenium setting, it's on a knife edge. You can play your own games where Chaos invades and does succeed in conquering Cadia, as they say 'forge your own narrative'. Just because some writer decides that once again 'Chaos always loses' doesn't somehow make Chaos a less enviable faction to play as, the problem lies with the terrible codex rather than the Chaos fluff. Mediocre writers messing with the fluff has done nothing to improve the setting of the game in the past ten years.

This, so much this.

Azazyll
08-07-2016, 03:15
This, so much this.

Exactly. If the Imperium loses it's literally game over. End Times. As to special characters, none of them die. Except Tycho.

Been into Chaos for twenty years. But I know how not to inflict my misery on a bunch of people who are (or at least were) sympathetic, aren't responsible and can't do a damn thing about the situation. You've long ago made your point. Now you're just bothering people and derailing other conversations.

Brotheroracle
08-07-2016, 04:07
Exactly. If the Imperium loses it's literally game over. End Times. As to special characters, none of them die. Except Tycho.

Been into Chaos for twenty years. But I know how not to inflict my misery on a bunch of people who are (or at least were) sympathetic, aren't responsible and can't do a damn thing about the situation. You've long ago made your point. Now you're just bothering people and derailing other conversations.

Doomrider died. Rode his flaming motorcycle into oblivion.

Snake Tortoise
08-07-2016, 07:10
I'm looking forward to new CSM stuff but personally I like lots of the kits people complain about- the basic CSM squads and terminators that I see people want re-done. I'd prefer if they made a new biker kit (with the special weapons) and made new plastic kits for everything that's still finecast. A plastic power armoured sorcerer would be good (maybe a dual kit that can be made as Ahriman and/or a dark apostle). Havocs too.

AngryAngel
08-07-2016, 08:08
Over and over and over again. Variations of it have derailed nearly every single chaos thread, and many other threads, for years now. We get it: CSM players are upset. I used to feel sympathy, but it's just become so pervasively obnoxious (even beyond the usual "spez muhreen" haters) that I can't stand it anymore. I've seriously considered quitting warseer over it.

Just hang strong my friend, it'll die down soon. I even have a small chaos force but this is a bit much. I haven't seen a GW hates nids post in awhile but I'm sure it is just a matter of time there too. You shouldn't quite warseer over it though just do what I do, have a good laugh when you read it and say to yourself " What a wonderful world " you know, like that really grim dark sounding song.




The problem with the whole Eye or Terror thing is that if the Cadian Gate falls, the galaxy falls. The way I see it is the Maelstrom is treated as how Games Workshop originally intended the Eye or Terror. The forces within the Eye or Terror are too powerful to ever win, simply because if they did the setting would be finished. The Chaos forces in the Maelstrom however are allowed to regularly succeed in their goals by the writers because they're not large enough to pose a threat to the Imperium's existence in one fell swoop. Maybe Chaos does eventually break out of the Cadian Gate and raze the Galaxy, but I don't want some talentless writer hired on the cheap to tell me. That's the beauty of the 41st Millenium setting, it's on a knife edge. You can play your own games where Chaos invades and does succeed in conquering Cadia, as they say 'forge your own narrative'. Just because some writer decides that once again 'Chaos always loses' doesn't somehow make Chaos a less enviable faction to play as, the problem lies with the terrible codex rather than the Chaos fluff. Mediocre writers messing with the fluff has done nothing to improve the setting of the game in the past ten years.

This is true, it is part of the grim dark last stand of humanity and even the galaxy itself. If the siege breaks with chaos pushing in, it is game over and while I'm sure all chaos players will rejoice with great gladness, it leaves the fluff worse off for lack of even the small grain of hope. Better to leave it as a static point of contention to focus various narratives. Honestly there are a great number of unstoppable evils in the universe, which I feel kinda makes it all a bit pointless. aside from just the eye of terror. The unstoppable Tyranids, the unkillable chaos, the immortal and equally rise from the dead necrons, the emperor just slowly dying as his throne is broken, etc, etc.

Somehow all those forces get beaten at great cost to keep mankind in it just a bit longer, that ends up the major focus of the game, and I'd really rather not Age of the Emperor this game system so we end up with some kinda minimally exceptional asgard left in its wake.


And over and over and over again, an entitled non CSM player complaining about CSM players whining. We have to be obnoxious, we have been screwed so many times, I can't figure out why we still play. I wonder how loud you guys would whine if you traded places with us.

Hey, you know, I play chaos as well and I can say I too am done with all the belly aching. At a certain point it just becomes too much to take. You haven't always gotten the short end of the stick, and it will come back around, I am sure of that so hang in there, or just take time away till it does. Best thing for your and everyone elses sanity.

murgel2006
08-07-2016, 09:06
Tyranid players are just as loud. This is fun. SM/Eldar players afraid they will lose the IWIN button!
I hate to say that but I feel a little bit offended. I play eldar, various SMs, CSM, nids and even have a nice small ork force, are using a significant DE force; and I do not fear losing the IWIN button.
Frankly, I say there are some things that come close to that but most of the players do not use them.
Are grav cents disgustingly powerful? Yes, they are.
Are Scatterbikes powerful? Yes, they are.
Is the Blood Thirster powerful? Yes, it is.
But neither are auto win. Nor are you obligated to take them.
Personally I do not have any centurion models at all. Honestly, what for, I will win or lose either way.
Comp- and power-gamers might fear the loss of the IWIN button, I don't really know. But that is IMHO inherent to that type of playstyle.

A.T.
08-07-2016, 09:46
Tyranid players are just as loud. This is fun. SM/Eldar players afraid they will lose the IWIN button!As a non SM/Eldar player let me assure you that the nid players don't even come close to the incessant CSM whining both here and on the GW facebook page.
It may be fun for you but the rest of us have to slog through the same drivel every time someone posts a thread on anything.

nagash66
08-07-2016, 12:36
If chaos existed in real life it would be lead by the god of whining and pointless thread derails, the most powerful Chaos god of all.

Azazyll
08-07-2016, 20:14
If chaos existed in real life it would be lead by the god of whining and pointless thread derails, the most powerful Chaos god of all.

Oh yes, that's going in my sig

slave
08-07-2016, 23:25
As a non SM/Eldar player let me assure you that the nid players don't even come close to the incessant CSM whining both here and on the GW facebook page.
It may be fun for you but the rest of us have to slog through the same drivel every time someone posts a thread on anything.

I have played both since 1987. Started off with a Slaanesh worshipping genestealer cult, now have 20k+ in both. I know the pain for 4, 5th, 6th and 7th editions. I have to slog through pages and pages of awful fail codex that can't compete with anything, so I have the honor of wasting 1000's of dollars, you have the honor of wasting your 30 seconds. Forgive me if I don't weep for you.

A.T.
08-07-2016, 23:32
Forgive me if I don't weep for you.Forgive me if I don't reply to any of your future posts, as off to the ignore list you go.

lybban
08-07-2016, 23:45
This thread really went downhill fast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A.T.
09-07-2016, 00:34
This thread really went downhill fast.The trouble with 40k rumours is they tend to have little of substance to discuss, so it all just becomes wishlisting and complaining.

These rumours though do have more going for them than most. Atia has a decent reputation and any rumour that GW is about to copy something else from forgeworld's 30k system seems pretty solid given all the other stuff they have done recently.

slave
09-07-2016, 01:31
Forgive me if I don't reply to any of your future posts, as off to the ignore list you go.

Cool story bro.

Elbows of Death
09-07-2016, 01:44
And...vaguely back on topic.

I don't play 40K currently but I enjoy enough podcasts and forums to appreciate the continuing universe. I'd like to see a change in the status quo. Not advance the narrative to the point of complete destruction of the Imperium...but let's move some pieces and pit some more folks against each other (or make some odd allies). Provide a few new character names (even if they don't get represented on the tabletop). How about an over-zealous new Ecclesiarchy which begins to confront/condemn various Space Marine chapters etc. A minor scuffle in the Imperium which allows an increase in Chaos attacks...subsequent increase in warp storms --- making it increasingly difficult for travel by normal forces etc. Any kind of change to the environment could be encouraging/interesting.

The history and fluff of the 40K universe is far more intriguing than the current conditions.

A.T.
09-07-2016, 09:57
How about an over-zealous new Ecclesiarchy which begins to confront/condemn various Space Marine chapters etc.That's pretty much the normal ecclesiarchy :p

It does actually happen in the lore, but without rolling back the setting to the age of apostasy the ecclesiarchy doesn't have any real teeth. The worst they can do is send the sisters of battle in to menace the space wolves again, or to pull another Saint Basilius incident (who effectived wiped out or converted 30 chapters of space marines and was still just a foot note in the larger waning event).

The middle years (nova terra/apostasy/redemption/waning) are a far more interesting setting of rising and falling fortunes than the all or nothing heresy/end times IMO. All involved capable of making bit gains and big loses without it being the end of the world. The trouble with ends times is just - bad things happen, bad things get worse, nothing changes, doooooom...

Azazyll
09-07-2016, 13:14
I have played both since 1987. Started off with a Slaanesh worshipping genestealer cult, now have 20k+ in both. I know the pain for 4, 5th, 6th and 7th editions. I have to slog through pages and pages of awful fail codex that can't compete with anything, so I have the honor of wasting 1000's of dollars, you have the honor of wasting your 30 seconds. Forgive me if I don't weep for you.

So GW did something bad to you, and that justifies punishing us every single time Chaos is mentioned in the rumors, and most of the time that it isn't? You were preaching to the choir at best. We have nothing to do with your problem. Go start a therapy group and leave us out of it so we can get back to actually discussing rumors.

Tokamak
09-07-2016, 13:48
Eh. The game gets better and it gets worse, and then it gets better again. It goes through a dry spell of two to five years, then turns around for a similar amount. Twenty years in I'm used to the pattern. I go back to rpgs in between.

GW sets a balance, then cannibalises it's balance with power creep to boost sales to the point where gamers start leaving, rinse, repeat.

Azazyll
09-07-2016, 15:27
GW sets a balance, then cannibalises it's balance with power creep to boost sales to the point where gamers start leaving, rinse, repeat.

Exactly. I started the month after the first Codex: Chaos was released. Seen it a bunch now.

slave
09-07-2016, 18:52
It's a simple problem to fix though, just playtest. Second had it's issues, but you had some fun times then. Herohammer is better than this mess. I hope this next release retores some long lost things that made Chaos. well, Chaos. I won't hold my breath, but I do have hope.

Daenerys Targaryen
12-07-2016, 13:42
I have played both since 1987. Started off with a Slaanesh worshipping genestealer cult, now have 20k+ in both. I know the pain for 4, 5th, 6th and 7th editions. I have to slog through pages and pages of awful fail codex that can't compete with anything, so I have the honor of wasting 1000's of dollars, you have the honor of wasting your 30 seconds. Forgive me if I don't weep for you.
I've been a die-hard Chaos enthusiast since early 3rd edition. In all that time, I've known ONE amazing codex - the 3.5ed book, which while it had its severe balance issues, was the one and only book outside of the new Khornekin & Daemon codices, that managed to really capture the background & feel of a Chaos army. It at least had some effort and a helluva lot of love put into it.

Mostly though, I've had to put up with nearly 20 years of *********** Jervis crap, and his asinine belief that to make Chaos different, is to simply take a Space Marine army, put spikes on it, remove every single rule that allows them to viably function, and then offer a bare minimum of flavourful rules for an obnoxious pts cost.
Look at our Land Raider... The thing doesn't work and is all but unplayable, because Jervis took away the one rule that the studio even admitted in WD was a basic need for it to viably function at its given task.

Danjester
12-07-2016, 14:50
I'm baffled why GW don't just produce two Chaos codices:

Traitor Legions, with Legion rules, special chars and old school gear, keyed as a more veteran heavy army.
And
Chaos Renegades, with current gear and some rule tweaks to make them a halfway house between loyalists, and hardened veterans of the Long War.

I don't even play Chaos, so apologies if I've totally misread how they should be played, but I'd have thought that was the ideal solution?

A.T.
12-07-2016, 15:16
I'm baffled why GW don't just produce two Chaos codicesBooks are produced for model ranges regardless of the strength (or lack thereof) of any given factions theme.
See codex: tempestus and codex: legion of the damned for instance.

GW doesn't have a razorback with spikes on/stormtalon with spikes on/grav cannons with spikes on range - so there isn't an ultramarines with spikes on book.

Azazyll
12-07-2016, 15:21
I'm baffled why GW don't just produce two Chaos codices:

Traitor Legions, with Legion rules, special chars and old school gear, keyed as a more veteran heavy army.
And
Chaos Renegades, with current gear and some rule tweaks to make them a halfway house between loyalists, and hardened veterans of the Long War.

I don't even play Chaos, so apologies if I've totally misread how they should be played, but I'd have thought that was the ideal solution?

Almost everyone on these forums will agree with you and have been making similar suggestions for years. But the main problem is that no one at the studio really cares about chaos. It's not "their" army - not since Chambers left I think. Studio insiders have been clear for a long time that armies that have advocates in-house do much better than those that don't. It's a real shame, because with the loosening of restrictions on the old codex model it would easier than ever to do what you propose.

Although what I'd really like, and what I think makes a lot of sense, is to make a giant "Chaos" book, at least the size of the current loyalist Marine 'dex. It would do the bitter old weird legions, the daemons, and the lost and the damned (cultist hordes). But then an appendix in the back on how to modify the loyalist codex plus the IG and Mechanicus codices to make renegade versions of all of them, with additional wargear, relics, maybe some special characters, and how to ally them with the main legion and daemon sections. It's be a big seller, and it would sell more imperial books too. Seems like a win-win to me, but I think it has a snowball's chance in the Eye of Terror of ever happening.

A.T.
12-07-2016, 15:29
But then an appendix in the back on how to modify the loyalist codex plus the IG and Mechanicus codices to make renegade versions of all of them, with additional wargear, relics, maybe some special characters, and how to ally them with the main legion and daemon sections.You'd really want that in the individual books themselves (i.e. the renegade guard force org in the back of the guard book) - otherwise it'll just keep getting out of sync.

Preferably not in the hamfisted way that adversaries were handled in 3rd edition.

Azazyll
12-07-2016, 18:31
You'd really want that in the individual books themselves (i.e. the renegade guard force org in the back of the guard book) - otherwise it'll just keep getting out of sync.

Preferably not in the hamfisted way that adversaries were handled in 3rd edition.

Ideally, but I find that even less likely. Of course, less likely than 0% is still 0% :D

Alex_H
12-07-2016, 20:46
Almost everyone on these forums will agree with you and have been making similar suggestions for years. But the main problem is that no one at the studio really cares about chaos. It's not "their" army - not since Chambers left I think. Studio insiders have been clear for a long time that armies that have advocates in-house do much better than those that don't. It's a real shame, because with the loosening of restrictions on the old codex model it would easier than ever to do what you propose.


That's something that if true really annoys me and I find hard to believe.

If I was lucky enough to work for GW and make codecs, I love the fluff and game so much it wouldn't matter which army I was writing for.

Whilst id admit I'd maybe spend more time on my beloved nids, but I'd be damned if I didn't knock out a work of art for each ******* faction. Otherwise why bother, why even show up to work?

ashc
12-07-2016, 22:31
That's something that if true really annoys me and I find hard to believe.

If I was lucky enough to work for GW and make codecs, I love the fluff and game so much it wouldn't matter which army I was writing for.

Whilst id admit I'd maybe spend more time on my beloved nids, but I'd be damned if I didn't knock out a work of art for each ******* faction. Otherwise why bother, why even show up to work?

For all its faults, the 3.5 ed codex was the best book produced besides 2nd ed, and Pete Haines was a big Chaos fan (even if it was mainly Iron Warriors!), that kind of dedication just hasn't been seen again.

Azazyll
13-07-2016, 03:05
That's something that if true really annoys me and I find hard to believe.

If I was lucky enough to work for GW and make codecs, I love the fluff and game so much it wouldn't matter which army I was writing for.

Whilst id admit I'd maybe spend more time on my beloved nids, but I'd be damned if I didn't knock out a work of art for each ******* faction. Otherwise why bother, why even show up to work?

That was basically the word back when the Powers That Be deigned to talk to mere mortals. It does make a certain kind of sense. You might wish that the best and brightest designed these games, but they're just people. Working in a soul-crushing and myopic corporate infrastructure. Kind of like how Hasbro slowly squeezed the soul out of D&D

Malefactum
13-07-2016, 16:35
Well, you *need* to like a faction if you really want to produce a good codex. Why that is? Well... I am playing two factions for about 20 years. And I know nothing of all the others, their strengths and weaknesses (well, I do, but only very roughly, I can't tell which units and combos are good, or which gear rocks or which army composition works great in situation X, but very bad in situation Y - I know that for my two factions, for sure). I'm not a comp player. I'm even not a regular player. Without having a dedication for one faction, how would you know about how these factions are played, what they lack, what their fans like about the faction and what needs to be changed? You don't. Yea, it might be people's work to know it, but that's not how it works. A game-designer designs a certain thing, then a player comes and uses it in a totally different fashion which all of a sudden might even start a main-stream-hype and lead to players starting to play it in this specific way. Now the player don't want this to change entirely, they want it to become better and probably also more flexible. The game-designer doesn't know this if he's not actively taking part in the community and playing the stuff himself in his *free* time.
That's not only true to 40k. That's true to very many games, including PC- and mobile-games.

A.T.
13-07-2016, 18:19
The game-designer doesn't know this if he's not actively taking part in the community and playing the stuff himself in his *free* time.It can go both ways in my experience.

Many of the worst balancing and design decisions I have seen come from the designers being invested in the design in some way, intent on making it good for them or from their biased perspective rather than approaching it in an indifferent manner.

Designers can also get 'too close' to their own work and make assumptions about it which are just a result of over-familiarity and pre-conceived notions of how something works. Designers who are heavily invested in something (particularly those who interact with the community) also have more pressures to deliver - games like 40k can be very 'us vs them' and a neutral designer has less to lose from being criticised and ostracised by vocal ******s calling for their head.

Voss
13-07-2016, 19:40
It can go both ways in my experience.

Many of the worst balancing and design decisions I have seen come from the designers being invested in the design in some way, intent on making it good for them or from their biased perspective rather than approaching it in an indifferent manner.

Designers can also get 'too close' to their own work and make assumptions about it which are just a result of over-familiarity and pre-conceived notions of how something works. Designers who are heavily invested in something (particularly those who interact with the community) also have more pressures to deliver - games like 40k can be very 'us vs them' and a neutral designer has less to lose from being criticised and ostracised by vocal ******s calling for their head.

Also, for a weird quirk, designers also get disconnected with the ruleset- either by working on a different edition/iteration, and testing against things that aren't out yet. It can create a weird disconnect, where inthe current rules the players have, an idea or concept makes zero sense, but makes some in the limited environment they're working in.

Malefactum
13-07-2016, 21:19
Yea, over-familiarity is probably just as bad as being a generic guy not being committed deeply enough to any of the stuff he is supposed to create.

Daenerys Targaryen
14-07-2016, 23:06
Yea, over-familiarity is probably just as bad as being a generic guy not being committed deeply enough to any of the stuff he is supposed to create.
Jervis & Ward are the perfect examples of why the game in in such a clusterfethed state as it currently is...

In Jervis' case, the only opinion that matters and the only way to ever play the game, is his way.
He had a lovely rant years back in WD, where he expressed that it was competitive players & the tournament scene that was poisoning & utterly ruining the Hhhobby as sees it, and that in a perfect "My Game" world, he'd even do away with points altogether!
Age of "Shitemar" as it was initially dubbed, is Jervis' failed experiment, and proof that he's a raging idiot who should be kept the feth away from any & every form of codex/army list rules writing.

On the other hand, Ward epitomised the awful, rabid fanboy mentality of games design... He admitted in WD that he had no love for Orcs, and was upset that he was handed the task of writing the 7th edition Orc army book. And lo and behold, the 7th edition Orc army book went down as probably the most blatantly under powered and mostly unplayable awful army books in the history of Fantasy! (and that's saying something when the 6th ed High & Dark Elf books existed!)
Then comes time for the (still bemoaned) 7th ed Daemons book, and he turned them into an OP monstrosity because as far as he was concerned, "they're Daemons and they should be over powered!" BS.

Lord Damocles
15-07-2016, 19:27
Ward... admitted in WD that he had no love for Orcs, and was upset that he was handed the task of writing the 7th edition Orc army book.
Source?

Because that doesn't even sound remotely likely.

Azazyll
15-07-2016, 20:17
Source?

Because that doesn't even sound remotely likely.

I actually vaguely recall that.

Spell_of_Destruction
18-07-2016, 05:21
Although what I'd really like, and what I think makes a lot of sense, is to make a giant "Chaos" book, at least the size of the current loyalist Marine 'dex. It would do the bitter old weird legions, the daemons, and the lost and the damned (cultist hordes). But then an appendix in the back on how to modify the loyalist codex plus the IG and Mechanicus codices to make renegade versions of all of them, with additional wargear, relics, maybe some special characters, and how to ally them with the main legion and daemon sections. It's be a big seller, and it would sell more imperial books too. Seems like a win-win to me, but I think it has a snowball's chance in the Eye of Terror of ever happening.

Doesn't sound too dissimilar to the 2nd ed codex which is still my favourite Chaos codex ever. Much better than the bloated mess that was the 3.5 codex.

I understand why so many reminisce about the 3.5 codex but the way the Legion rules were implemented was like bolting a series of citadel journal articles onto a generic Chaos codex.

I think a well written Chaos codex should be flexible without being too prescriptive. It needs to be able to reflect a wide range of forces, from renegades to small warbands of heresy veterans, from those who take a secular view of warfare to those who have made Faustian pacts with daemons and everything in between.

Azazyll
18-07-2016, 15:58
Doesn't sound too dissimilar to the 2nd ed codex which is still my favourite Chaos codex ever. Much better than the bloated mess that was the 3.5 codex.

I understand why so many reminisce about the 3.5 codex but the way the Legion rules were implemented was like bolting a series of citadel journal articles onto a generic Chaos codex.

I think a well written Chaos codex should be flexible without being too prescriptive. It needs to be able to reflect a wide range of forces, from renegades to small warbands of heresy veterans, from those who take a secular view of warfare to those who have made Faustian pacts with daemons and everything in between.

That's my inspiration. But also including a better way to use existing imperial books as renegades

Daenerys Targaryen
18-07-2016, 22:14
Daemons cannot ever be lumped back into the CSM codex...

Keep in mind that Daemons went from 5 MC's + 4 Troops + 5+2 added WD 'specials', and now comprise a whopping 9 generic HQ's (note: only counting the 3x 'Thirster 'levels' once), 9 'named' characters, 5 Troops, 4 Elites, 6 Fast & 5 Heavy choices.
Merging them into one giant book - even one of similar size to the Loyalist Marine codex, would still require chopping out a large portion of the current daemonic line-up.

The only thing GW would accomplish, would be to **** off every Daemon player who'd suddenly find half their no longer existed!

Besides, the book is Chaos Space Marines. Not "Every last possible Chaos combination under the sun".
If Loyalists can get 8-9+ books, then surely Chaos is at least deserving of;
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines (main marine book)
- Codex: Slaves to Darkness (AoD style supplement for the 4 'dedicated' Legions)
- Codex: Daemons of Chaos
- Codex: Lost and the Damned (Traitor Guard, Dark Mech, mutants/zombies, etc...)

Besides, GW can't even decide what the hell CSMs are supposed to be with just the basic marine elements! Throw everything Chaos under one cover and we may as well just write the off entirely with the mess GW would inevitably turn it into.