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View Full Version : CSM Troops Choices



jbeil
15-07-2016, 17:40
What are the most points-effective choices for Troops in the CSM codex? Comparing our lovely spiky marines with those nasty smooth-armoured imperials, I notice that while our statline looks equal we're down on special rules like And They Shall..., plus our wargear options seem a little more restricted.

I've enjoyed using Khorne Beserkers as a fun unit but they seem in actual terms to be a bit useless when it comes to actually winning games - generally they do well on the first assault but they get bogged down and lose effectiveness as they go. The Plague Marines are a nice solid choice, even if the process of building them can be like pulling teeth. I've not tried the Rock Marines or the Thousand Hats, but neither seem really resilient enough to take fire.

So, am I best served by sticking to huge mobs of cultists to take bullets and objectives, or is there some mileage I've not yet found in our Marines?

Dr.Clock
15-07-2016, 17:58
Plague Marines and Noise Marines are both plenty good IMO. Cultists are quite good for the points. Berzerkers are too situational and slightly overcosted, but not terrible - better in Khorne Daemonkin, but there for me it's just one unit of Possessed as a tax unit. 1kSons need an update like crazy, and CSM are just too expensive for what they do. The unit itself ain't terrible, they're just overcosted when you try to get them to do what you want them to. Free ccws for CSMs would basically fix it though... or at least make them 'acceptable'.

There is simply no way you can convince me that ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics together are worth ONE point vs. CSMs who may have more options, but not by much. Basically, if your MARINES are potentially going to run off the board or get swept in combat, they should be cheaper than Loyalists. I'm fine with the 'basic CSM' being slightly worse than a Loyalist in the 41st Millennium, because they are not as coherent as an army... but that really should be reflected in the point cost. In effect, 12 points for a CSM as they stand right now would be decent. 13 with 'uber grit' seems about right. Mostly, I want something like Chapter Tactics for non-Cult units.

So it goes... in the meantime, KDK is wicked fun, even if I rarely include more than ~10 'actual marines' in any list up to 2k points (Lord; converted Herald; 8 Possessed).

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Daenerys Targaryen
15-07-2016, 21:01
Berserkers suck because like every other melee centric option CSM's have, they lack any kind of actual delivery system. Rhino Rush died out mid way through 5th edition, and the core rules have completely removed all trace of that tactic since 6th hit. Just being somewhat over costed wouldn't be so game-ruiningly awful, if we could at least get them across the table reliably.
However, when your *only* option outside of FW is to either a) walk across a table for 2-3 turns, while eating a tone of enemy firepower, OR, b) buy a Land Raider that doesn't even function remotely like it's supposed too... Well, at least they're not DE Wyches levels of useless, but still pretty close.
Khornekin at least proves that even a tiny boost can make them into a 'fun' unit, just by virtue of the Blood Tithe bonuses. They're still over costed, but FnP at least helps them to get into combat with decent numbers!

The basic CSM's are altogether ignorable, since they still have to pay for every possible rule they can take, like its still 3rd edition.

Cultists only lose out on special weapons, but are nearly a 3-for-1 deal over a basic CSM, and can even become readily problematic for opponents with either MoK for hitting things or MoN for camping Objectives.

Plaguemarines are the gold standard for CSM's. T5 + FnP and double specials without any added body count tax? They're perhaps the only unit besides Sorcs who are actually fairly costed for their abilities.

Noise Marines are okay for min/maxing Blastmasters and/or Doom Sirens, but Sonic Blasters are pure garbage... Besides, MoS CSM's are cheaper assault troops, and point for point, make better use of the FnP Icon. (though while more expensive, Bikers are the best unit to carry one)

Thousand Sons are just an unplayable mess currently... Hopefully the fact that they're *finally* getting new plastic models might mean they get a total rules revamp, but considering we seem to be forever stuck with Jervis' asinine vision of what Chaos should be, I won't hold out much hope. (at least I can spare myself the almost certain disappointment when they stay hot garbage rule-wise!)

Latro_
17-07-2016, 22:44
Plague marines 5 strong with 2 melta or 2 plasma in a rhino
about as good as it gets

cultists in small units or with a fearless trigger in bigger units for obj hugging + tarpit

thats all that needs to be said really for csm and troops :D

Snake Tortoise
17-07-2016, 23:08
Plague marines have a lot of things going for them but I think they get a bit overrated against regular CSMs when you consider a unit of 10 CSMs is only 20 points more expensive than 5 plague marines. At that point both have access to double special weapons and there are plenty of circumstances where the extra resilience of PMs is negated (dreadnought style CC attacks, strength D, S10 etc.). I'm not saying they're necessarily on par with each other but I don't think the difference is as big as is commonly made out- certainly not to the point where you would regularly lose games because you took CSMs instead of plagues for your troops.

For me only 1ksons are a purely thematic choice, all other options have a place in the right circumstances.

DakkaFex
18-07-2016, 17:25
Thousand Sons are just an unplayable mess currently... Hopefully the fact that they're *finally* getting new plastic models


Can I get a source on the new plastic models? Tried looking in the rumour thread and on google but couldn't find anything. Cheers!

Scammel
18-07-2016, 18:16
I think even some of the more realistic assessments here are quite optimistic. It's worth addressing the fact that more than half the units being discussed actually need unlocking in the first instance to make them Troops - whilst it's a fairly paltry tax, they're awful Elite units and only two just about cut the mustard as Troops. Basic CSMs, Sons and Berserkers are all dire and the remaining three aren't truly 'good' in the sense that one could make a worthwhile competitive army out of multiples, they're merely not so bad that the opportunity cost is unbearable.

The CSM book was written for the 5th paradigm and was pretty thoroughly middle-of-the-road then (bar a few outliers in other slots). The calibre of Troops these days leaves them sitting in the dust.

Daenerys Targaryen
18-07-2016, 21:57
I think even some of the more realistic assessments here are quite optimistic. It's worth addressing the fact that more than half the units being discussed actually need unlocking in the first instance to make them Troops - whilst it's a fairly paltry tax, they're awful Elite units and only two just about cut the mustard as Troops. Basic CSMs, Sons and Berserkers are all dire and the remaining three aren't truly 'good' in the sense that one could make a worthwhile competitive army out of multiples, they're merely not so bad that the opportunity cost is unbearable.

The CSM book was written for the 5th paradigm and was pretty thoroughly middle-of-the-road then (bar a few outliers in other slots). The calibre of Troops these days leaves them sitting in the dust.
Plaguemarines pull their weight even as Elites though...
T5/3+/5++ is pretty damned resilient to just about everything short of Scatbikers, (which are beyond broken), and the fact that we can take 2 specials for the base cost of only 5 models is damn sweet!
Considering that the only way to even make CSM's viable in the shooting game is to min/max your special weapons as efficiently as possible, the only competition Plaguemarines have in this regard are Bikers and/or Havocs. (the latter of which end up losing out to Oblits & Fiends)

Cultists are also a great choice - either for min/maxing purely as MSU objective campers, or else take a larger unit with MoK. They're cheap enough to splurge for the mark, and on the charge, they're actually rather dangerous simply because they throw out so many attacks.

Granted outside of those 2 choices there's nothing else worth talking about...
Noisers end up wasting at least half their potential (and thus, their pts cost!) in the end, 'Zerkers need a ridiculous amount of luck to even get a single charge off, basic Marines are just Tacticals -10 in every way imaginable, and 1kSons are a complete joke unit who struggle to find relevance against even the most watered down opponents!

WesleyfuhPP
23-12-2016, 21:19
this would have to be done per battle zone... You might not want allies troops stationed on your homeland but you might want them deploying forces where you are fighting a war ...