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View Full Version : Fate of primarch XI:- False Gods Spoilers.



Chem-Dog
13-07-2006, 06:27
Don't read on if you haven't read Horus Rising and False Gods, and want toDuring his "vision" did anybody else notice that Horus was next to the chamber that contained the missing Primarch number XI, his reaction deffinitely suggests that the Primarch was never to be, interesting also, is the fact that as far as I can tell it's the chamber that Horus ruptures. Can it be that Horus is responsible for the pre-developmental destruction of one of his brothers?

Wazzahamma
13-07-2006, 08:00
It's possible that he killed the infant there and then.

Or, that damaging the chamber exposed the infant when it was sent hurtling through the warp, allowing it become so horribly mutated that it had to be killed upon discovery.

Or maybe it escaped/became lost and seperated from its chamber in the warp and never landed on a planet?

Eulenspiegel
13-07-2006, 08:29
Yes, weīve already noticed ;)

I think it was a vision, nothing else. If Horus "dream" actually would have led to the loss of that Primarch, he would have to travel in time. I donīt think lowly would-be Chaos Marines can do that, especially not at that early stage, where they are only just meddling in the newfound playground.
This is because I donīt like those entire time-travel theories, and was quite happy that 40K is entirely void of them. Otherwise there would be too many new possibilities ... Magnus going back in time, too, and killing Horusī foetus, anyone?

I think it was more or less a dream, where Horus subconciousness edited in some interesting events. Horus knew (we can assume), that two Primarchs were lost to the Emperor. When he recoginzed the birth-room of the Primarchs, his unconscious knowledge did the rest for him ...

Sai-Lauren
13-07-2006, 08:37
It's been said before - all the Primarchs were recovered. All 20 of them. It was a vision, a hallucination, a dream.

Of course, that could be a precognitive spoiler as to the eventual fate of the 11th Primarch.;)


This is because I don´t like those entire time-travel theories, and was quite happy that 40K is entirely void of them.
Actually, it is supposedly possible to time travel via the warp - not all the exit points are in the here and now, some are in the there and then.;)

ArtificerArmour
13-07-2006, 08:49
Yes, but the process is random and more likely to drop you off 100 years in the future than 100 years in the past.

Ravenous
13-07-2006, 09:45
since all of them were discovered and all of the Primarchs were handed 10,000 marines, that is the odd bit.

Sigmar is so far the best theroy on one of the missing Primarchs.

but that leaves the other one.

half the founding legions went to chaos. That leaves the other one going to chaos.

Wazzahamma
13-07-2006, 09:57
I think GW have been doing their best to seperate the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k universes. While Sigmar was once being primed to be a lost Primarch, I think they've since abandoned that idea.

ryng_sting
13-07-2006, 17:16
No link between Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. In either case, Sigmar, unlike the primarchs, was born to a human woman, not grown in a capsule.

gunhed
13-07-2006, 17:24
And I'm sure Martha and Jonathan Kent said exactly that when people asked them where their new baby came from :D

Mind you though, I still don't think Sigmar is the missing Primarch. I favour the "both of them and their legions being held in stasis on the orders of the Emperor, who then ordered the records destroyed, but then got stuck in the Golden Throne before he could explain why" theory.

Drasanil
13-07-2006, 17:34
And I'm sure Martha and Jonathan Kent said exactly that when people asked them where their new baby came from :D

No, they got phony adoption papers...:p

Lord Dante
13-07-2006, 17:48
I personaly belive it was a rather cool paradox - Paradox's are cool, watch Back to the Future!

Mechanicus
13-07-2006, 18:03
My personal theory is that they were a Legion who were destroyed very early on in the Crusade (IE, somewhere near after Horus was discovered), and that they were destroyed by Daemons, hence the need to cover up the consequences by wiping the records. This also partially explains the fact the XI primarch's "feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass". Maybe the primarch was disabled in some way, or the primarch was very young when found for some reason, and had not gained all his powers yet.

For those who have read the short story Hell in a bottle will know that it's possible for Rubinek and the Iron Hearts Legion to fit this description.

I also favour the Valedictors (~WD126) who were claimed to have fought in the heresy against Orks and Eldar, are the II Legion; and they turned to chaos, but never contacted/was contacted by Horus, and therefore explaining away the fact that "fully half the primarchs fell to chaos", and "Horus led 9 Legions against the Emperor". The Legion was destroyed by aliens and was stricken from the records, their name and colour scheme put on the roster for new chapters, as seen in Realms of Chaos. This would also explain away the fact there's another Valedictors chapter classified as a later founding.

Of course, not everyone follows these theories, and they're far from official. They just seem to make sense to me.

I also believe what Horus saw was an illusion, perpetrated by Chaos to make it seem real, but actually it was entirely made up.

Colonel_Kreitz
13-07-2006, 18:14
I think GW have been doing their best to seperate the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k universes. While Sigmar was once being primed to be a lost Primarch, I think they've since abandoned that idea.

*Ahem* Except for the power armor, flamers, and power fists that came out with the Albion campaign. ;)

But yes, on the whole, quite right. They're trying to separate the two. That's part of the reason for their reluctance to redo Squats as the Demiurg; there's less desire to directly transfer Fantasy races to 40K.

Lord Dante
13-07-2006, 18:14
I like the idea that the illusion was real - that he did speak to the old Emperor.. Paradox!

Inquisitor S.
13-07-2006, 18:56
It's been said before - all the Primarchs were recovered.
Where can this be found exactly?

Mechanicus
13-07-2006, 19:53
I don't know where it was first referenced to, but in the Horus Heresy Artbook I, on page sixteen:


During the Great Crusade the Emperor was reunited with the Primarchs in turn, each having risen to a position of authority within the cultures they had been deposited in [...]

It's not the quote others have used, and it implies it rather than states it, but it still says pretty much the same thing. I'm sure I remember a reference to it earlier, in second edition somewhere, but I can't reach the rest of my collection yet, so this will have to do for now! :D

Inquisitor S.
13-07-2006, 20:02
That does not state anything about the number of found primarchs.

Mechanicus
13-07-2006, 20:17
No it doesn't; as I said, it implies they were all found. As does the quote from Codex: Angels of Death:


Each Legion was led by a Primarch, [...]

Which logically says that because all the Legions were created, regardless of Primarch being there or not, they were all led by Primarchs, implying they were all found.

I'll keep looking now that I'm home. :)

Inquisitor S.
13-07-2006, 20:31
Could be, but I'd prefer something solid like 20 legions took part in the great crusade or something because the legions were created before the primarchs were found, so it could still be, that two primarchs didn't make it and their legions could have been dissolved.

Mechanicus
13-07-2006, 20:48
So would I, but getting a straight answer out of GW is harder than getting a straight answer out of a politician. I'm still looking, and Codex: Ultramarines would be somewhere good to look, but I can't find it at the moment... :(

Any help from anyone else here? :)

Captain Stern
13-07-2006, 20:51
I'm thinking that perhaps the tank Horus struck was his own...

It definitely does say somewhere in the 2nd edition codexes that all 20 were found and reunited with their legions. I'll have a look myself later if you still haven't found it yourself.

Mechanicus
13-07-2006, 21:46
If you could! I've got other things I technically *should* be doing, so any help is appreciated! :)

Fulgrim's Gimp
13-07-2006, 21:48
The Legion was destroyed by aliens and was stricken from the records, their name and colour scheme put on the roster for new chapters, as seen in Realms of Chaos. This would also explain away the fact there's another Valedictors chapter classified as a later founding.


Interesting, where in Realm of Chaos does it say this ? I think the XI primarch may have been destroyed by Horus in false gods, but, he could have just as easily been killed by the populace of the human world he landed on.

Mechanicus
13-07-2006, 22:02
Interesting, where in Realm of Chaos does it say this ? I think the XI primarch may have been destroyed by Horus in false gods, but, he could have just as easily been killed by the populace of the human world he landed on.

Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned, page 243, second paragraph up from the bottom, on the left. :)

And it depends on whether the vision was real or an illusion. Pesonally, I think it's an illusion, purely because it seems, in my mind, like what Chaos would do.

Fulgrim's Gimp
13-07-2006, 22:11
Nope that's the Harbinger of Horror banner for the daemon legion of Nurgle. (It is honest !)

cailus
13-07-2006, 23:48
Interesting, where in Realm of Chaos does it say this ? I think the XI primarch may have been destroyed by Horus in false gods, but, he could have just as easily been killed by the populace of the human world he landed on.

Or he could have landed on an alien-infested planet and became a tasty snack for some nasty critter.

Icarus
14-07-2006, 00:58
I haven't actually read the book, so I don't know exaclty the scene you're describing. However it occurs to me that maybe (pure speculation) that Horus was remembering deeply buried memories of killing another Primarch when they were all still in their pods? I mean he was psychic, its possible he could have done it even as a child, lashed out and shattered the chamber containing an infant Primarch.

As for the whole missing legions thing, I doubt GW will ever offer up an explanation. It seems to have been thrown in there as a nod to the 2 expunged legions from the 20 legions of Ancient Rome. It now remains as a tanatalisingly open question.

Captain Stern
14-07-2006, 01:01
I never thought of that! Wow...

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 01:04
Imagine an christmas Carol by Dickens - Horus is taken on a similar trip and one of the visions he has is deep in the himalayan mountains, Inside a lab, which holds technolagy thats far beyond anything he has seen before...
In a special room are these incubation pods, i belive he even looks at himself and the fetus responds...
All of a sudden he is actually there, in real-space (or so he thinks, maybe, maybe not) He has a big fight with some custode guards that carry weapons just like Grey Knight Hallys.
Then the Emp turns up (and its a moment I love because even horus is in awe of him) and says somthing like "I know you?" ...
In the fight a few pods get broken and the rest dragged through lil worm hole vortexs...

Personally i like to think its all some cool Paradox by Kaos, that it was pre-ordained and the Emp knew what was to happen...

Chem-Dog
14-07-2006, 01:06
And it depends on whether the vision was real or an illusion. Pesonally, I think it's an illusion, purely because it seems, in my mind, like what Chaos would do.

Would it not be the way of Chaos to show the truth and lie about what it was? Could not have Horus's presence been the mechanism or catalist for the scattering of the Primarchs?

It's clear that the being in box No XI comes to nought though, Horus knows this and senses it.

On a related but different note, the Story of the Thousand Sons is a tragedy.

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 01:07
Yeah - Magnus is trying to save Horus in the book and it all gos horribly wrong (not to mention Russ and the Wolves sack Pertuabo) with Horus making the wrong choice.

Does anyone else like the Idea of a Paradox?

Ravenous
14-07-2006, 06:45
*Ahem* Except for the power armor, flamers, and power fists that came out with the Albion campaign. ;)

.


so they found power armour, flamers and all that on Ablion? where they hell can I find the story for this?

arkbird
14-07-2006, 07:53
I don't fully agree with the lost legions tie in with the lost legions of Rome simply because there were 3 legions lost in Germainia, not two. Lets face it when GW makes up their fluff they just copy it so I can't really see them changeing those details. What probably happened was that the creators came up with 18 names and 9 ideas for leagions and just said the last two were "lost". This fits in with the style of the game where each loyal legion had a heretical legion as its opposite.

I love Paradoxes. the whole building a time machine to go back in time and kill your grandfather before you father could be born and thus making it so that you couldn't have existed to do just that. :eyebrows:

Or even better, going back to fix an event and end up causeing that very event to occur. Or fix it and thus never go back to fix the thing that didn't happen and thus allow it to happen. :eyebrows:

gunhed
14-07-2006, 11:37
Yeah - Magnus is trying to save Horus in the book and it all gos horribly wrong (not to mention Russ and the Wolves sack Pertuabo) with Horus making the wrong choice.

Does anyone else like the Idea of a Paradox?

I got the impression that Horus was only really pretending to be shocked by Magnus' use of sorcery and was actually winding Russ up into such a frenzy that he'd attack Magnus and his boys (against the wishes of the Emperor who only wanted Magnus brought back to answer some questions), thereby getting Magnus to turn against the Emperor and side with Horus.

In effect, he was setting Magnus up to take a beating so that he could go in and say "I told you so".

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 11:46
I dunno - at that point in time Horus is none the wiser and hasnt made a choice - he is clearly decived by that dirty Emp Children Chaplain.

gunhed
14-07-2006, 12:31
It was just how I read it at the time. Perhaps a second reading some months away might make me see it differently.

Sandlemad
14-07-2006, 15:19
Question: This might not be in the book but...

Before the primarchs were discovered, were the legions called by their modern names (blood angels, ultramarines, etc) or were they named by number (1st legion, 2nd legion, etc)?
I ask this because I've noticed a difference between the legions pre-discovery and post discovery, mainly in their traditions and fighting style and such. I know that, for example, the white scars didn't take up the ritual facial scars until Jaghtai Khan was discovered but what about these names?

Sai-Lauren
14-07-2006, 16:11
They were numbered IIRC.

Mechanicus
14-07-2006, 18:39
Well, at least two had names pre-discovery:

The DA were known as "the First"

The Death Guard were known as "Dusk Raiders".

I think they were all referenced to as the I/IX/XVII/etc Legion as well though, if they didn't have a name.

Shaper Shakra
14-07-2006, 18:51
It's Sigmar. You can't change my mind on that. Ever.


so they found power armour, flamers and all that on Ablion? where they hell can I find the story for this?

I think that was a joke.

NakedFisherman
14-07-2006, 19:13
It's Sigmar. You can't change my mind on that. Ever.


Sigmar was born to human parents. It's been said again and again here as well as again and again in background books. He had a father and a mother (yes, real biological ones).

Shaper Shakra
14-07-2006, 20:21
Yeah, well GW books also say that Ork technology works "just because". Does that mean I have to believe it?

NakedFisherman
14-07-2006, 22:34
Yeah, well GW books also say that Ork technology works "just because". Does that mean I have to believe it?

No, but make sure you state personal opinions as such. It also has little to do with belief.

Chem-Dog
15-07-2006, 03:08
I got the impression that Horus was only really pretending to be shocked by Magnus' use of sorcery and was actually winding Russ up into such a frenzy that he'd attack Magnus and his boys (against the wishes of the Emperor who only wanted Magnus brought back to answer some questions), thereby getting Magnus to turn against the Emperor and side with Horus.

In effect, he was setting Magnus up to take a beating so that he could go in and say "I told you so".

Half and half, I think. When Magnus appeared Horus was deffinitely surprised but taking into account his choice, it's obvious that getting Russ wound up served his purpose two-fold, first putting Russ way out of the way so he can't intervene and dealing with Magnus who is (at this time) both loyal and aware of what is going on. Horus is being lied to by chaos, I don't think that Tzeench in particular would easily reveal his plans.


I dunno - at that point in time Horus is none the wiser and hasnt made a choice - he is clearly decived by that dirty Emp Children Chaplain.

Surely you mean Dirty Word Bearers Chaplain. ;)



Question: This might not be in the book but...

Before the primarchs were discovered, were the legions called by their modern names (blood angels, ultramarines, etc) or were they named by number (1st legion, 2nd legion, etc)?

Generally, they were given name either by their Primarch or ones that reflected something about Primarch, this is why we have Sanguinius at the head of the Blood Angels (he was at the head of a group called "the People of true blood" or just "the blood" and he looked like an angel), Leman Russ at the head of the Space Wolves (wolves being a formidable predator and something of a totem to the people of Fenris) and Death Guard is the name of Mortarion's elite cadre of soldiers etc.
From Memory the Emperor's Children are named because of a mishap that nearly wiped out the legion and the measures that were taken to save them.



It also has little to do with belief.

In a similar vein to faith healing and the Placebo effect, :)

Inquisitor S.
15-07-2006, 20:50
Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned, page 243, second paragraph up from the bottom, on the left. :)

And it depends on whether the vision was real or an illusion. Pesonally, I think it's an illusion, purely because it seems, in my mind, like what Chaos would do.

Finally got the chance to look that up. On page 243 of said book there are only daemonic standards of Nurgle.

Totem
15-07-2006, 21:14
I don't fully agree with the lost legions tie in with the lost legions of Rome simply because there were 3 legions lost in Germainia, not two. Lets face it when GW makes up their fluff they just copy it so I can't really see them changeing those details. What probably happened was that the creators came up with 18 names and 9 ideas for leagions and just said the last two were "lost". This fits in with the style of the game where each loyal legion had a heretical legion as its opposite.


I would say that GW knew that it was 3 legions lost in Germania, but changed that detail to serve the fact that Horus led 9 legions against the Emperor's 9. They probably wanted to preserve that "equality".

Mechanicus
16-07-2006, 11:06
Finally got the chance to look that up. On page 243 of said book there are only daemonic standards of Nurgle.

Oops! Sorry, it's the Slaves to Darkness book! I always get those two mixed up. :o

Inquisitor S.
16-07-2006, 11:20
Oops! Sorry, it's the Slaves to Darkness book! I always get those two mixed up. :o

Ok, we seem to have a slight misunderstanding here: to what exactly are you referring in RoC? The practice of keeping the designations for later foundings? Because I can't find anything about a legion beoing destroyed by aliens.

Mechanicus
16-07-2006, 15:11
In the Slaves to Darkness book, I was reffering to the fact that the Legions that were excommunicated had their names and colour schemes put on the inactive list after the Heresy by order of the Emperor.

The Valedictors thing is assumption, got from the facts that:

A) There is reference to the Valedictors fighting in the Horus Heresy against Orks and Eldar around WD126.

B) There is reference to the Valedictors as a later founding.

C) Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness makes reference to the fact that the designations of the traitor legions were put on the inactive roster to be given out again to later founding chapters.

D) Fully half the primarchs failed the test of Chaos.

So, that means that it's probable that the Valedictors were a first founding Legion, possibly turned to chaos (One of the lost Primarchs did, if we believe fact D), were destroyed (Presumably by Orks and Eldar, because they were the ones it was claimed they were fighting against during the Heresy); and their designation taken up by a later founding chapter known as the Valedictors.

It's assumption, but most of the lost legions stuff is assumption anyway.

Hope this clears it all up!

Timber_Wolf
16-07-2006, 17:15
Originally Posted by Ravenous
so they found power armour, flamers and all that on Ablion? where they hell can I find the story for this?

I think that was a joke.
well, you know the three items this references to? the dark elves glove of power (dunno all the english names), with this one, you have the same stuff as a sm fist (S8, attacks last, even when charging), the high elves power of the gods (3+ save, +1strengh) and the good old dragon muskete (or such stuff..?), high elves, too, allowing you to use the flame template like a breath weapon...acutally, i thought "sounds like space marines tuff", too, when i first read the rules
NOTE: if i´ve broken form rules, so tell me...but i think the items are accassable on gw´s own site, so the shouldn´t be a problem (correct me if i´m wrong..)

ryng_sting
17-07-2006, 17:42
The Empeor wanted Russ (and the Custodes and Sisters of Silence) to exterminate the Thousand Sons, and said so. He added that any survivors were to be rounded up and shipped back in the Black Ships. Russ wasn't ordered to travel to Prospero and voice his polite and considered protest.

To repeat a point that needs repetition: Sigmar's father watched his mother give birth to him; it happened after a battle with the Orcs. Baby Sigmar didn't arrive crashing out of the sky in a wee capsule, ergo, he's not a primarch, so accept it.

Wazzahamma
18-07-2006, 06:36
The Empeor wanted Russ (and the Custodes and Sisters of Silence) to exterminate the Thousand Sons, and said so. He added that any survivors were to be rounded up and shipped back in the Black Ships. Russ wasn't ordered to travel to Prospero and voice his polite and considered protest.


Are you talking about False Gods or previous fluff here? Because according to False Gods, Russ wasn't ordered to exterminate anyone by the Emperor, merely to bring Magnus back to Terra for questioning.

Lord Dante
18-07-2006, 12:06
"yo Magnus, Dad wants to have a word"

"Bite me"

"Bjorn, slap him..."

Totem
19-07-2006, 01:01
Are you talking about False Gods or previous fluff here? Because according to False Gods, Russ wasn't ordered to exterminate anyone by the Emperor, merely to bring Magnus back to Terra for questioning.

Actually, according to False Gods Russ was ordered to exterminate Prospero by HORUS at the end of the buck.


"yo Magnus, Dad wants to have a word"

"Bite me"

"Bjorn, slap him..."

Awesome.

Daemonslave
19-07-2006, 10:58
Could be, but I'd prefer something solid like 20 legions took part in the great crusade or something because the legions were created before the primarchs were found, so it could still be, that two primarchs didn't make it and their legions could have been dissolved.

Here you go;


Twenty Space Marine Legions took part in the Great Crusade. These twenty are known as the First Founding because they were the first Space Marines to be created. Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, the god-like being whose genetic structure formed the basis for the Legion's gene-seed.

Codex: Ultramarines 2ed page 7

Incidently, if you look at the list of the Legions in the first visions Heresy artbook (which is canon 30k fluff) it states that the 2 missing legions have already been expunged - so these two legions disappear before the heresy begins.

Also, if you think about how difficult it would be to keep the knowledge of two whole legions a secret when they are in the public eye fighting in the Great Crusade, it leads me to conclude that they were found very early on in the Great Crusade and also disappeared early on.

And, when you consider that the only other Primarch that was found early ( 30 years before other Primarchs at least) was Horus, who seems to know what happened to at least one of these two missing Primarchs, it gets you wondering - and it does seem to fit.

On the same topic, try looking up Lupercal on google. When you consider that Horus is commander of the Luna Wolves it makes interesting reading.;)

Mechanicus
19-07-2006, 18:11
I always assumed that the Lupercal thing was about the two Legions with "No record" for their planet of origin (IE, Alpha Legion and Worldeaters), but I'm probably wrong about that. I haven't read their Index Astartes unfortunately. :(

Thanks for finding that quote! (I knew it would be in the Ultramarines codex. If only I knew where mine was... :mad:)


Incidently, if you look at the list of the Legions in the first visions Heresy artbook (which is canon 30k fluff) it states that the 2 missing legions have already been expunged - so these two legions disappear before the heresy begins.

Hmm... And one of them must have turned to chaos...

charlie_c67
19-07-2006, 23:24
Must have? Not necessarily, if they were both wiped out before the end of the great crusade then the fully half would still be 9 legions.

Daemonslave
20-07-2006, 09:52
Actually if you look throughout all the codicees you get quotes which say that "almost half", "fully half" and "over half" of the legions took part in the Horus Heresy, which is rather confusing. The way I see it is that it depends on the scribes knowledge.

I.e.

"almost half" could actually be referring to 8 Legions (which is almost half of 18) because technically the Night Lords didn't ally themselves with Horus, they just went on a rampage.

"fully half" could be either 9 or 10 legions (depends on knowledge of missing two legions)

"over half" could be referring to the involvement of the Dark Angels.

Then again, just because the records of the legions have been deleted doesn't mean that they did not fight. If this is the case then it would have to be one legion per side to keep up the balance as described above. Can you think of another faction that split down the middle during the heresy?;)

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 10:07
Does it not mean that around half of the legions were actually fighting - whilst some, say the Ultramarines were off doing other things?

Daemonslave
20-07-2006, 10:24
No, these numbers refer to the number of legions who turned.

charlie_c67
20-07-2006, 14:05
Don't forget the Ultras were fighting, they were being attacked by Kor Phaeon with the Word Bearers. The only two that did face the bulk of the traitors so to speak were the DA and the SW. Though IIRC they did chase them back to the warp.

Stahlgeist
20-07-2006, 18:10
Unlike others here, I think Horus WAS really in the primarch birthing chamber. I think it is within the power of Chaos (per the existing fluff) to do this.

SPOILER:

If that is true, then the implication is that Horus is responsible for the failure of Primarch XI, punching in his tube just before he was sent into the Warp. This is the tube he's standing in front of, thinking of that particular Primarch's lost promise and potential. I think the rupture in the tube either led to the infant Primarch XI being irrevocably mutated or still-born. Why include this detail (even down to the part about XI's fists beating against the inside of the tube in panic), if not for the benefit of the reader? It wouldn't seem to make much impact on the story if it wasn't a real event. Certainly Horus doesn't seem to be effected by it in any way.


Also, my vote is for the other expunged Legion to NOT have chosen sides, and being damned by the Imperium for it - a very Miltonian, very gothic twist.

Havoc
20-07-2006, 20:40
In near enough every peice of fluff about the legions it says that ALL the primarchs were reunited with the Emperor and their legions, we won't know what happened to the two missing legions, and if the chaos gods did have horus kill one of the primarchs why didn't they send other people into Luna and do what Horus did, they had all of time and since they can send people back in time then they can stop the Emperor being born, stop all the primarchs being born, and then serious ****** up everything in the universe...untill the c'tan wake up

Cryler
20-07-2006, 22:09
GW rewrites the fluff alot. With this series it seems like they're rewriting the whole Heresy. So why not wait and see how it pans out.

Stahlgeist
20-07-2006, 22:19
In near enough every peice of fluff about the legions it says that ALL the primarchs were reunited with the Emperor and their legions, we won't know what happened to the two missing legions, and if the chaos gods did have horus kill one of the primarchs why didn't they send other people into Luna and do what Horus did, they had all of time and since they can send people back in time then they can stop the Emperor being born, stop all the primarchs being born, and then serious ****** up everything in the universe...untill the c'tan wake up

Didn't say they could do it all the time...just when it moves the story along ;) .

They could have been re-united w/ a mutated #XI or dead baby #XI, at least symbolically.

Also, time travel in the Eldar webways is possible (Inquisition Wars), so there seems to be a precedence in WH40K canon.

charlie_c67
21-07-2006, 14:02
Except following your line of thought Constantine Valor would be dead before the HH started.

dOOHICKY
21-07-2006, 15:12
What I don't get is that there is not even any mention of the missing legions in the books, or anywhere!
If I remember rightly, did the Emperor not create the legions before finding the lost Primarchs. When they were found they were united with their own Legion made from their own geneology!

If that is the case, then even without a Primarch these Legions should still have been about before the Heresy!

Mechanicus
21-07-2006, 16:24
Yes, that is why we believe they've been destroyed; by the enemy or by the Imperium for rebelling.

Stahlgeist
21-07-2006, 17:07
^ Or absorbed into the other legions, maybe.

^^I'll have to reread the chapter, but I'm pretty sure Constantin doesn't get killed by Horus in the Primarch chamber, just some other Custodes red-shirts do.

Again, maybe it's just bad writing, but why the level of incidental detail for the reader's sake if it's supposed to be a mirage? I'm not a huge fan of Graham's other stuff, but he's not THAT bad.

arkbird
21-07-2006, 17:09
actually no. read the alpha legion fluff. The legions were created before the emperor found the specific primarch but not just at random. The alpha legion wasn't created until a few decades before the finding of the primarch. This probably means that the emperor knoew about when a primarch might be found and could order the creation of a new legion for him to comand. Which makes sense because the primarchs are the progenitors of the different legions and so would lead them. The legions were probably lost/damaged beyond repair in a similar fashion to the emperor's children and were unable to recover from the loss because the primarchs weren't found. It would have been bad for moral to know that two legions of the imperiums best soilders were killed before reaching the battlefield or killing a single enemy.

Daemonslave
21-07-2006, 22:21
The legions were probably lost/damaged beyond repair in a similar fashion to the emperor's children and were unable to recover from the loss because the primarchs weren't found. It would have been bad for moral to know that two legions of the imperiums best soilders were killed before reaching the battlefield or killing a single enemy.

As already stated earlier, ALL 20 Primarchs were found and ALL led their respective legions (though not necessarily at the same time;) )

In fact this "accident" involving the Emperor's Children geneseed seems to be within the time frame that I would expect the missing primarchs to be found. If you consider you have the Emperor supervising the creation of these marines, I wouldn't expect any accidents at all.

Heru Talon
21-07-2006, 23:44
The thing that happened in False Gods was a dream nothing more.


If it wasn't a dream both The Emperor and the Grand Master of Custodes would have realised it was Horus years later when they found him, and would have taken action to make sure he would never go back and do what he supposedly did.

Chem-Dog
23-07-2006, 09:18
If it wasn't a dream both The Emperor and the Grand Master of Custodes would have realised it was Horus years later when they found him, and would have taken action to make sure he would never go back and do what he supposedly did.

Bear in mind though, that neither the Emperor nor Constantin Valdor have seen Horus for some time by the time Horus has his vision, they couldn't remember him if they never get to see him like that. If the Chaos powers can transport him back to Terra before he is even "Born" they should be able to shroud his true identity.

charlie_c67
24-07-2006, 00:48
But still doesn't tie up with the fluff. Like the fact that, IIRC, it's his rubber baby bubby bunker he's beating the crap out of.

AmasNagol
24-07-2006, 05:52
I forget whos IA it was in, but whichcever Primarch was found last, it stated in their Legion's IA that "they were the last of the 20 Primarchs to be found and reunited with their Legion".

I remember people discussing this several years ago on Portent.

And the logical solution given the facts issued by GW is that the Legions were created and destroyed entirely somehow in a way which is too terrible to record during the Great Crusade.

However we are basing these facts on single sentences included in articles spread 15 years apart, with no real editorial overseers to maintain coherency.

charlie_c67
24-07-2006, 10:22
Alpharius was the last to be found and that wasn't long before the HH.

Delicious Soy
25-07-2006, 09:54
^^I'll have to reread the chapter, but I'm pretty sure Constantin doesn't get killed by Horus in the Primarch chamber, just some other Custodes red-shirts do. No after whacking the Red Shirts, he pwns Constantin.

It seems massively obvious that the Chaos Gods manipulated the truth of the matter in the vision to cast the Emperor in a bad light. It seem to be an obvious telegraphing of the end on the Battle Barge where Horus at the point of being killed has an epihany:

"Holy *****. Those malevolent bastards fed me BS! How coul evil warp entities lie like that? Sorry Dad."

About which time he suffers a head to shoulders divergence.

On other matters, isn't it possible that somewhere along the line the other two legions simply sufferred an accident similiar to the Emperor's Children? Geneseed failure could kill a legion no matter how strong it is. Of curse that doesn't explain what happened to their primarchs. Except maybe grief fuelled suicide, which would definitely be something the Emperor would want hushed up. Remeber the reaction of the remebrancer when made aware of the squabbling of the Primarchs.

cybertron2000uk
25-07-2006, 13:39
Yeah - Magnus is trying to save Horus in the book and it all gos horribly wrong (not to mention Russ and the Wolves sack Pertuabo) with Horus making the wrong choice.

Does anyone else like the Idea of a Paradox?

betrayed by horus and the emperor ( While still loyal..)...fantastic!

seeing the future and causing it is great!

I wonder how long they can string it out?
I am loving this! cant wait for the showdown!!

Horus being jealous of not being picked first by chaos, works very well...

Commander Ozae
25-07-2006, 17:05
The two primarchs who are missing will always be a mystery. GW might use them in an end-game scenario but unlikely. As long as there's business they won't stop. What I've been wondering is two things: 1) wouldn't it make sense if Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy is a primarch? and 2) why are there no female primarchs. The current stance GW seems to have taken with the primarchs is that they were eventually to replace the human race, basically the Emperor wanted to transform all normal humans into primarchs. Why then are there 18 males, you would want females to reproduce and form a viable basis for a new race.

Mechanicus
25-07-2006, 17:19
The two primarchs who are missing will always be a mystery. GW might use them in an end-game scenario but unlikely. As long as there's business they won't stop.

Individual publications may give hints (False Gods being the prime example here), but I agree, GW probably won't reveal them.


What I've been wondering is two things: 1) wouldn't it make sense if Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy is a primarch?

No, as GW's current stance on 40k and fantasy is that hey are two separate universes, totally isolated from one another.


and 2) why are there no female primarchs. The current stance GW seems to have taken with the primarchs is that they were eventually to replace the human race, basically the Emperor wanted to transform all normal humans into primarchs. Why then are there 18 males, you would want females to reproduce and form a viable basis for a new race.

I don't believe that is the current stance of GW. As seen in the new Horus Heresy artbooks and series, the Space Marines were intended to be used to take back the Human race, then administrators and other civilians would rise to power and the Space Marines (And Primarchs) would be used as peacekeepers. So, no, not intended for a new race. The Emperor wants to guide humanity to it's psychic future, as a race of alpha class psykers, IIRC.

Commander Ozae
25-07-2006, 17:51
Yeah, but imagine the power of alpha lvl SM librarians, not to mention the primarchs. I agree with you that probably my idea is wrong (i did a reassesment and it doesn't work) but i think if your idea is right the Emperor is a blockhead. The SM need to fight as seen in False Gods and they really hate these new adminstrators who have no respect for them. the SM i think were meant to be the equivalent of the knights a pseudo-feudalistic society and would be loyal to the Emperor and their primarchs only.

Psiweapon
27-07-2006, 03:04
My, my, do I have to remember you, my fellow posters, of the meaning and significance of the number ELEVEN? The number of the ultimate traitor?

Against all of the Imperium's values is treason... it's the lowest someone can fall. What would the emperor think of his children who did not only betray Him, but the Ruinous Powers as well - and with that, betraying himself!

Let's see, an unborn posthuman, already - and very literally - touched by Chaos, and denied his destiny by Chaos; mercilessly attacked by Chaos and a would-be superior in the very same person.

A baby marked with the number XI, his protections shattered and left alone and powerless to face Chaos and his demise. The perfect clay to mould the killer of killers, to embody the principle of contradiction, the Primarch of self-destruction.

Lo and behold, my theory on the 11th Primarch. ;)

dOOHICKY
27-07-2006, 08:04
So basicaly you are saying it is Malal???

Psiweapon
27-07-2006, 12:09
So basicaly you are saying it is Malal???
Hush!!!
I'm proposing something far-fetched but not THAT farfetched. I'm saying that he could have turned to him, in his despair; and that given the circumstances the Fourth Power would have some affinity with him.

Captain Loken
28-07-2006, 03:58
I might just be a loser but on page 8 in the current space marine codex the chart which shows the founding legions and the homeworls ec. they show the 2nd and the 11th as being smuged out or literally erased and they have somthing in every coloum of the chart. Maybe they were around for a while?

Daemonslave
28-07-2006, 12:53
I remember reading that someone used some sort of programme to "un-smudge" it and it turned out it was a series of random letters. Don't know if true or not.

Lord Dante
28-07-2006, 13:41
As a someone who works in the in the 3D industry and teaches the use of 2D applications like photoshop - thats just isnt possible in anyway at all.
You cant make somthing out of nothing.

Apollyon
28-07-2006, 16:06
What if the last 2 legions weren't destroyed or failures merely hidden a fail safe if the Empire was overun. Like the Necrons in stasis waiting until needed. They were deleted like Area 51 was deleted sure it exists but not offically.

MechTau
28-07-2006, 16:26
Where does it show that all twenty were recovered?

Totem
28-07-2006, 16:33
Hush!!!
I'm proposing something far-fetched but not THAT farfetched. I'm saying that he could have turned to him, in his despair; and that given the circumstances the Fourth Power would have some affinity with him.

Don't you mean fifth power? There already are four, not including Malal.

Mechanicus
28-07-2006, 16:58
Where does it show that all twenty were recovered?

All 20 Primarchs were recovered, it says this on page 7 of the Ultramarines codex, second edition.

Eideu
28-07-2006, 17:06
thats 2nd edition,is that even canon anymore? Ship Navs were half eldar in that edition according to some fluff.

Mechanicus
28-07-2006, 17:20
thats 2nd edition,is that even canon anymore?
Opinion differs, but I think general opinion is that all background is canon until proven otherwise.

EDIT: Oh, and it was one astropath, and nothing has been heard of it since. We can assume that the astropath was only rumoured to be half eldar, since most of GW's background is from one opinion or another.

Kandarin
28-07-2006, 17:49
My theory:

The 11th Primarch was recovered, and he and his Legion fought in the Great Crusade, but they were killed by the Emperor's enemies (Orks, Eldar, rebel humans, or any number of other things) when a mission ordered by Horus went horribly awry. For the rest of his life, Horus blamed himself for their deaths. Consumed by secret guilt, he even went so far as to envision himself murdering his friend in the womb, as if it was he and not the rebels/xenos/whatever who killed the lost Primarch. The Chaos powers latched onto this guilt from the moment they began to influence him, perhaps trying to make Horus believe that if he followed them, they could remedy this wrong.

As for why #11 is stricked from the records, the Imperium doesn't want anyone knowing that one of its mighty Legions was destroyed by xenos! Pure blasphemy! Nobody must be allowed to hear of it! The Great Crusade was a time of victory after victory, everyone knows that!

Psiweapon
29-07-2006, 02:39
Don't you mean fifth power? There already are four, not including Malal.

No no no. I mean fourth. Slaanesh is younger ;)

Commander Ozae
29-07-2006, 03:12
Although the xenos theory is pretty good it would require a truly massive force to destroy an entire Astartes Legion not to mention a primarch. I doubt that the SM wouldn't remember something like that even if the majority of the populace doesn't know it. My theory is that the two primarchs and their legions chose different sides in the Heresy and duked it out between them, killing each other and destroying their forces. They were hidden from history for some reason, maybe hiding the truth of the Heresy or the weakness of an Astartes Legion?

paddyalexander
29-07-2006, 03:57
The original reason for there being 2 Primarhs and their legions left out of list of twenty was so that players could invent/create their own. Thats it really. I based my generic Chaos army around fallen 7th founding marines whose gene seed was taken from one of these lost Primarchs as an experiment of its purity.

Heru Talon
29-07-2006, 16:04
Although the xenos theory is pretty good it would require a truly massive force to destroy an entire Astartes Legion not to mention a primarch. I doubt that the SM wouldn't remember something like that even if the majority of the populace doesn't know it. My theory is that the two primarchs and their legions chose different sides in the Heresy and duked it out between them, killing each other and destroying their forces. They were hidden from history for some reason, maybe hiding the truth of the Heresy or the weakness of an Astartes Legion?


That was my deduction too.

Except that it is likely that both of them turned Traitor at least at the start, and one (the 2nd Legion maybe) after discovering that the other Traitors were actually in league with Chaos, tried to turn back to the loyalists only to get destroyed by them (though they would have seriously mauled the other lost legion before the were destroyed).

The 11th Lost Legion (the number is random...) would likely have been extremely genetically unstable meaning they were already smaller than the other Legions when they were hit by the 2nd Lost Legion. Sure they may have survived that conflict but likely during the Siege of Terra they probably suffered even more attempting planetfall. Which would mean they'd probably only have about one hundred guys left when they hit the ground, an easy number to get destroyed before the Siege was repelled.


You'd then have the Loyalists come along to the 11th and 2nd's homeworlds (not knowing that the 2nd's attempted to correct their mistake) unopposed, and annihilate them (just like they did with the other Traitor Legion homeworlds).

Now there is the question of why were they expunged when the other Traitors weren't, well there is two things to that, first data on the other Traitors is heavily restricted to the normal population in the first place, and second the other Traitor Legions weren't destroyed, so data needs to be kept on them.


Remember to have a read of the Index Astartes on Renegades, that mentions when a Chapter goes rogue and is fully destroyed they are EXPUNGED from all records.


See this thread of mine for more info

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Pre_Heresy/index.php?showtopic=226&st=0&#last

Daemonslave
29-07-2006, 16:14
If you look at the first Horus Heresy artbook you will see a table of the legions. The missing legions have been expunged before the Heresy starts. This is 30k canon (like it or not) fluff, which shows they did not fight as a legion in the Heresy, though possibly they were split an served in other, more secretive, roles.

Inquisitor S.
29-07-2006, 16:50
If you look at the first Horus Heresy artbook you will see a table of the legions. The missing legions have been expunged before the Heresy starts. This is 30k canon (like it or not) fluff, which shows they did not fight as a legion in the Heresy, though possibly they were split an served in other, more secretive, roles.

That table does not have a date so you should provide a quote for your statement.

Commander Ozae
29-07-2006, 17:44
Actually, what if their geneseed was corrupted. We know there were problems with the Emperor's Children and they had like 1 or 2 thousand marines in the Legion and it took them almost a century to start operating independantly. Therefore we know it is a devastating loss to the marines if geneseed is flawed and it is possible. What if the geneseed was flawed and the legions collapsed/died out without recruits. Maybe the Imperium then purged all their records to hide the fact that two of their legions were flawed. I'm not sure what would have happened to the primarchs (suicide because they're children died?) but this would explain the legions.

Kandarin
29-07-2006, 18:53
Actually, what if their geneseed was corrupted. We know there were problems with the Emperor's Children and they had like 1 or 2 thousand marines in the Legion and it took them almost a century to start operating independantly. Therefore we know it is a devastating loss to the marines if geneseed is flawed and it is possible. What if the geneseed was flawed and the legions collapsed/died out without recruits. Maybe the Imperium then purged all their records to hide the fact that two of their legions were flawed. I'm not sure what would have happened to the primarchs (suicide because they're children died?) but this would explain the legions.

Already suggested earlier in this thread.

Commander Ozae
29-07-2006, 21:00
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread. But you have to admit its a pretty good idea.

Zakuza
29-07-2006, 21:55
Could Horus have been that primarch XI and that's the reason he was so easy to corrupt?

Heru Talon
29-07-2006, 22:23
If you look at the first Horus Heresy artbook you will see a table of the legions. The missing legions have been expunged before the Heresy starts. This is 30k canon (like it or not) fluff, which shows they did not fight as a legion in the Heresy, though possibly they were split an served in other, more secretive, roles.


Hah!


Yeah I know about that table, but then do you really think that GW would even create two Legions for that table if they weren't going to mention them in the book itself?



Now I don't currently know if the rumors I've heard about the 1st and 4th book are true, but if they are I would seriously doubt the credibility of those books from any fluff perspective.

Commander Ozae
30-07-2006, 00:24
No. Lion el'Johnson was the 1st primarch (labeled as such) and his legion was the 1st legion. Horus was like the 16th primarch or something like that.

Stahlgeist
19-08-2006, 19:08
Except following your line of thought Constantine Valor would be dead before the HH started.


No after whacking the Red Shirts, he pwns Constantin..of the remebrancer when made aware of the squabbling of the Primarchs.

Sorry, guys, but you both may want to re-read that part of the story again (like I just did).

He whacks two generic Custodes, gets hit by Constantin, is ABOUT to 'strike Valdor down', and then the big E shows up.

CV never gets "pwn"ed.

Giladis
20-08-2006, 09:32
I for one believe that what came to pass in that chamber was true. Chaos Gods are powerfull but not even them can contorl the warp but only influene it. Imagine like a whirpool influencing the ocean around it but eventualy it is being moved areound by the currents of the ocean never the less. That may be the reason that that moment in time and space may have been the only one when accsessing birth chamber was possible by time travel.

The other thing is how easy Horus fell. On the other hand it was his legion members that got corupted before he did. And it also seams that WB were preparing that for ages. It seams that Logar was the guy behind the heresy but neded a more skilled warrior in the form of Horus to do his gods bidding.

Indrid Khold
21-08-2006, 03:30
I'm not even going to weigh in on the issue of Primarch XI. It's far too mercurial for me to speculate.

But here is somethinge else from False Gods that REALLY irritated me. Perhaps it has been brought up before, and if so I apologize for the redundancy but here goes:


When Horus (supposedly) goes forward in time to see the Imperium as it is in contemporary 40K, it is obviously meant to be the very same Imperium that we all know and love/despise. There's the Emperor and the loyalist primarchs all being adored by the idot masses. Horus gets upset and joins the dark side almost immediately (meh, it's a better reason than Anakin Skywalker had).

But here's the kicker: That future only comes to pass after the Horus Heresy, and only with Horus LOSING. So.... if Chaos already knows that he's going to lose in the battle .... then the whole thing seems rather strange to me. Maybe they did the math and figured that crippling the Emperor and the Imperium was worth it all, but it still seems strange that they'd commit to the Heresy knowing in advance that Horus would be defeated.

Does that bother anyone else?

Giladis
21-08-2006, 06:03
Yes it really was strange. But to me the entire fall of Horus is inpalpably wrong.

BrainFireBob
21-08-2006, 06:20
Unless it was a potential future- and are there snippets floating down the timestream?

Khaine's Messenger
21-08-2006, 06:45
So.... if Chaos already knows that he's going to lose in the battle .... then the whole thing seems rather strange to me.
(...)
Does that bother anyone else?

In what sense? It's possible it was a potential future simply used to **** Horus off. They weren't quite sure that one would actually come about, but it was still possible (assuming it's just an illusion). Two, the Chaos Gods may have prefered the Imperium created by the Horus Heresy and really didn't bother investing all that much in Horus' success except for wounding the Emperor (or at least that's what they'd tell you--no "well prepared" villian will ever admit he hasn't planned for "just such an eventuality!").

There's a sort of cosmic metaplot going on that does not exactly stress temporal victory, if you catch my drift. The Horus Heresy, exceptional event as it was, should not be seen in terms of Horus, the Emperor, or even the Chaos Gods "winning" or "losing," but rather in terms of what the actual outcome was and how it has affected the flavor of all events since.

Dais
21-08-2006, 11:04
chaos saw a way to immoblize the emperor AND eleminate half their human enemies. who wouldnt take that opportounity?
the timeline is hazy on when the records were expunged but if you take into account the order of the primarchs discoveries were mostly in sync with their numbers theres a good chance horus knew #2 very well and would have been busy with the crusade by the time of #11's discovery. if the records of 11 were really expunged before the heresy and durring the crusade he wouldve had a tragicly short time in the empire. that would explain the unfufiled potential line.
we all have theorys on the 2 missing legions but id have to say it takes more than death to be erased from history.

Mechanicus
21-08-2006, 12:09
I still believe that the two expunged Primarchs were found before the Heresy (And before Horus was found), because none of the other Legions mention them, none of the Primarchs mention them (Barring, of course, XI who's "potential was not fulfilled"), so I believe that in the 30 years between the Great Crusade setting off and Horus being found, the two Primarchs were found, XI being killed (Probably by daemons and chaos) causing him and his Legion to be expunged (The Emperor would hardly want chaos to be common knowledge) so early on that Horus never knew him, and his abilities never reached full power (IE, his potential was not fulfilled). Primarch II we don't know about, but presumably something similar happened to him.

I still like the idea of Rubinek and the Iron Hearts being Primarch and Legion XI, personally. :p

Daemonslave
21-08-2006, 15:15
@ Mechanicus, you've got your fluff slightly mixed up. Horus is found relatively early in the great crusade (though no amount of time is mentioned) and believed to be the first found. It is then said that another 30 years passed until the next Primarch was found.

So, while I agree with you that the missing two were probably found first, we have a 30+ year time period in which these two, along with Horus, could have all coexisted. After all, Horus' discovery is the only one shrouded in mystery, so it seems likely that it is linked somehow to the missing Primarchs and these records were also deleted. Also, the fact that he knows of what happens to Primarch XI, since he knows of the "unfulfilled chance for glory" again suggests that Horus knows of the two.

Terminatorphoenix
21-08-2006, 15:38
i know this is slightly of topic but how predomitably do the custodes appear in the horus heresy series of books, i want to read up on the custodes and besides the horus heresy art books thier's not much.

Theory

What if the chaos gods made horus posses the body of one of the missing primarchs(ide say the second) and made him kill the baby primarch. Surely for this act the emperor would have the possesed primarch's legion wiped from existence and memory

The baby primarch's legion well they were either wiped from memory and existence or they became the valkeries of the omnisiah(depeding who you believe.)

Its just a theory(tell me if that didn't make sense)

sanctusmortis
21-08-2006, 18:03
IIRC, Sigmar was once a confirmed Primarch. It's been written out now, but he was the Astral Sharks Primarch.

Now... GW realises such crossover is silly.

Indrid Khold
21-08-2006, 19:03
It's been written out now, but he was the Astral Sharks Primarch.



The uh .... the "Astral Sharks" Primarch?

....


Hehehe...hehehehe....HAHAHAHAHA.

OH man, lucky for him the records of that dumb@ss name were expunged, or he'd be the laughing stock of the galaxy.

Stahlgeist
21-08-2006, 21:40
Still not as bad as the "Rainbow Warriors", though.

Inquisitor S.
13-09-2006, 14:58
White Dwarf 166, page 12:

[...] the infants (=primarchs) were only dispersed by this action and not destroyed, and the twenty fell from the warp onto human worlds where they were variously adopted by human parents

So this case should be settled for now.

And hey, in the same text there mention of an "Invisibility"-power of one of the primarchs.

Further on the text states that of the 20 primarchs nine survived in the Imperium, and the remainder was killed in the Heresy or fled to the EoT.

Daemonslave
13-09-2006, 16:52
White Dwarf 166, page 12:


So this case should be settled for now.

Hopefully.


And hey, in the same text there mention of an "Invisibility"-power of one of the primarchs.

Yes, and such a power would help one stay hidden. On a slightly off topic suggestion, who would you say is the mythological equivalent of the Emperor? Does this person have any family with the above power?;)


Further on the text states that of the 20 primarchs nine survived in the Imperium, and the remainder was killed in the Heresy or fled to the EoT.

Unfortunately, this quote is very open to interpretation. We know seven loyal Primarchs survived the heresy, which leaves room for two more. BUT we don't know how many of the traitor Primarchs fled to the Eye. Lorgar is in the Maelstrom, for example (though he could have gone to the Eye first!), the Night Lords are said to have gone on a trail of destruction following the death of Horus before finally being driven into the Eye. So that, too, is open to interpretation. Plus many others (Iron Warriors took part in the Iron Cage) - so does that count as during or after the hersy.

Heru Talon
13-09-2006, 17:05
Seven meaning your accepting the rather pathetic new fluff that says Ferrus was killed? (GW you don't kill another Primarch!! You make them disappear but you don't kill other Primarches past Sanguinius, Horus and Konrad Kurse in new fluff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....

Daemonslave
13-09-2006, 17:32
Seven meaning your accepting the rather pathetic new fluff that says Ferrus was killed? (GW you don't kill another Primarch!! You make them disappear but you don't kill other Primarches past Sanguinius, Horus and Konrad Kurse in new fluff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....

Actually this is one of the few things from Sabretooth that I didn't have a problem with. Though the cheese from the discussion between Horus and Fulgrim afterward has put me off cheddar for life!!!

BrainFireBob
13-09-2006, 18:02
Lorgar's in the Eye, Kor Phaeron is in the Maelstrom.

Stahlgeist
13-09-2006, 18:33
White Dwarf 166, page 12:


So this case should be settled for now.

And hey, in the same text there mention of an "Invisibility"-power of one of the primarchs.


I always figured Kurze to be the Invisibility Primarch - kinda fits in with his MO.

Inquisitor S.
13-09-2006, 18:35
It isn't specified, only that this trait wasn't transferred to the Space Marines.

EDIT: another source that settles things: Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition, page 7 (at least in the German edition):
All twenty legions took part in the Great Crusade and every legion was led by its primarch. And it is stated that these legions split into two factions in the Horus Heresy and that one should assume that the unknown legions fought for Horus, at least at the beginning of the Heresy.

Daemonslave
13-09-2006, 19:56
It isn't specified, only that this trait wasn't transferred to the Space Marines.

EDIT: another source that settles things: Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition, page 7 (at least in the German edition):
All twenty legions took part in the Great Crusade and every legion was led by its primarch. And it is stated that these legions split into two factions in the Horus Heresy and that one should assume that the unknown legions fought for Horus, at least at the beginning of the Heresy.

Remember, though, especially in regard to GW fluff, when you assume you can make an ass out of u and me.:)

Never listen to things that say "perhaps" or "it is believed" - they are heretical lies!

Inquisitor S.
13-09-2006, 19:59
*shrug* At least there's a source now that states that they were present at the time.

Daemonslave
13-09-2006, 21:12
*shrug* At least there's a source now that states that they were present at the time.

"Of legions 2 and 11 nothing is recorded, but it seems likely that these also fought for Horus, at least during the beginning of the Heresy."

There is no statement that they definately participated - nothing is recorded.

cailus
14-09-2006, 00:28
Can't be bothered using quotes....

Anyhow someone mentioned whether less than half, more than half or simply half the legions went renegade. If there were 18 legions, then quite clearly mroe than half of the legions went renegade:

1. Alpha Legion
2. Death Guard
3. Sons of Horus
4. World Eaters
5. Word Bearers
6. Iron Warrriors
7. Emperor's Children
8. Night Lords
9. Thousand Sons
9.5 Half of the Dark Angel legion as led by Luther

This leaves the loyalists at 8.5 legion
1. Ultramarines
2. Imperial Fists
3. Blood Angels
4. Space Wolves
5. Raven Guard
6. White Scars
7. Iron Hands
8. Salamanders
8.5 Half of the Dark Angel legion as led by Lion'el Johnson

And if it was 20 legions, and the 2 missing turned traitor, then again more than half turned traitor - 11.5 turned traitor, leaving 8.5 loyal to the Emperor.

I still think that the 2 expunged legions were expunged before the heresy. As someone mentioned, any Marine chapter that turns traitor is expunged from records. However these records are probably still maintained by the Inquisition. The expunging from records most likely means "public" records.

So as the 2 legions seem to be expunged or non-existant even from Inquisitorial records, then I assume that they were expunged before the Horus Heresy and hence before there was an Inquisition.

And finally as mentioned in False Gods, Horus knows that Primarch XI never succeeds. This is proof that at least Primarch XI never participated in the Heresy.

In regards to old fluff, I hate to say it but the new stuff overrules it.

La'mour Le Breton
14-09-2006, 03:28
its possible that the emperor ordered the legions destroyed. He was trying to hide the fact that chaos existed. they could have witnessed some crazy daemon warp thing, and it couldn't be covered up within the legion. dead men tell no tales. so the emperor had to make them dissapear.
They also could have just left to forge their own empires somewhere in the universe. alot of the primarchs weren't too happy with the big guy at one point or another.
also maybe the 2 legions refused to choose a side in the heresy(they didn't want to fight their own brothers) and either left, or were destroyed in the chaos after.

Daemonslave
14-09-2006, 17:04
Regarding the more than half, almost half, fully half legions that sided with Horus, this can be explained based upon the viewpoint of the author and what their knowledge of the number of the legions is.

More than half - 9.5, 10, 10.5, 11, 11.5 (the .5 representing knowledge of the Dark Angels turning traitor.)


Almost half - 8.5, 9, 9.5, (but we know that it's not 8.5)

Therefore the only one that could fit into both catagories is the 9.5 option (which is 9 traitor legions plus half the Dark Angels or, if the Dark Angels Fall is not known then it could account for half of 19 legions).

As for fully half, the above discounts the possibility of all 20 legions taking part. So if the author is aware of 19 legions then that means that one of the missing legions could have taken part in the Horus Heresy on the Emperors side, or (and I think more likely) if the author knows of 18 legions but not the Dark Angels split.

It's also worth noting, though, that this is refering to the legions and not the participation of any Primarchs.;)

La'mour Le Breton
14-09-2006, 22:15
do the custodes count as a legion? im sure they were really powerful and messed up alot of chaos marines, they could count as half a legion at least. did the dark angels traitors really participate in the heresy? i thought they were scattered to the winds, and were licking their wounds for a while. I dont think they count in the whole tally

cailus
15-09-2006, 01:39
The Dark Angel traitors fought the loyal Dark Angels. This is significant in itself because it effectively took a Space Marine legion out of the fight.

However it still stands that half of the Dark Angels turned traitor.

Son of the Lion
15-09-2006, 12:27
Technically True. Though the Caliban incident is not common knowledge, nor was it really part of the Horus vs. Emperor split since Luther's problem was solely with LEJ and his percieved betrayal of him and the other Angels - the marines that followed him did so because they shared his grievance, though many became 'true' chaos marines after the breaking. Still, in a strictly logistical sense, I can't argue with including the fallen in the number of marines that turned traitor.



P.S. I for one hope that neither GW or Sabertooth ever reveal the identity or fates of the missing Primarchs - the hints and theories are much more fun. I personally like the Sigmar idea (winces) - it makes a lot of sense from some viewpoints and is quite clever, but it would severly warp our conceptions of WHFB if GW did ever adopt it as canon. So it's more fun as a 'what if' concept.

legoburner
16-09-2006, 16:28
Excuse the only partially related post, but Galaxy in Flames is now for sale in Forbidden Planet (UK). Ben Counter was signing today at the one in London and I got a chance to meet him and ask a few questions about the series. I learned that they have no idea whatsoever about how many books are being made for the series and are waiting to see how well the first 3 do. The next book is due in Spring 07. The rumour that the authors of the first 3 books will write the last 3 books is not confirmed, but has been put forth as an idea.

jobi
24-09-2006, 01:16
I know I haven't posted here before, but I've lurked a lot. Thought I might throw in my theory.

First the 8.5-9.5 thing, not every marine in the traitor legions would have went against the emporer. Some had to stay true. So that could balance it back to 9-9.

But anyway, I could be waaaaay off, but where did the Grey Knights come from? Could they not be one of the missing legions? The Emporer was trying to hide Chaos from his subjects, like in the first Horus Heresy book, Garviel Loken was horrified that Chaos existed. Could it be that the Grey Knights were formed to destroy Chaos before the Imperium admitted there was such a thing. Before the crusade was under way. And by expunging the records trying to cover them up.

I don't know just a thought really.

The pestilent 1
24-09-2006, 01:21
Only a handfull of marines from the Traitor legions remained loyal, and its suggested in one of the recent books on the Heresy (Err...) That a cocktail of their gene-seed was used for the Grey Knights. :)

jobi
24-09-2006, 01:23
Oh ok. Well I never said it was a good theory. :D

Freak Ona Leash
24-09-2006, 01:23
Since the thread came up, it gives Freak a great place to ask something. For those who have read Hell in a Bottle from "into the Maelstrom" or "Let the Galaxy Burn" we know of the Iron Hearts Space MArines, who were destroyed by Daemons. And their leader is referred to as Primarch Rubineck...so, come on, its not that hard to miss...

Hooter Hunter
24-09-2006, 02:40
In reference to the DA split, iyt really isnt clear as to when the split occured. Some say it was during the Heresy and that Luthor was the loyal one and the Lion was just waiting to see where the chips fell.

The one thing that is clear, IIRC, is that the battle of Caliban was fought AFTER Horus was defeated. Rmember that durin the battle between Luthor and the Lion that the Warp was opened and when the DA landed afterwards they found Luthor on his knees weeping, and sayin that the Watchers in the Dark had taken the Lion.

This had to have taken place after Horus was defeated because the Horus Heresy rule book states specifically that a Daemon warned him that a combined fleet of Russ and The Lion was approachin. Thats why he made his big gamble and lured Big E onto his barge.

Heru Talon
24-09-2006, 04:17
Only a handfull of marines from the Traitor legions remained loyal, and its suggested in one of the recent books on the Heresy (Err...) That a cocktail of their gene-seed was used for the Grey Knights. :)

So the books with good art and bad fluff add another line of rubbish... mixing geneseed should have been restricted to the Cursed Founding where it belongs (ie Relictors).

Originally before that BS it was the Emperor's genetic material that went into making the Grey Knight geneseed.


The Grey Knights were formed after the Heresy and so were not one of the Unnamed Legions.



Oh and "Freak" your insane.

Wazzahamma
24-09-2006, 06:02
I personally feel it's an improvement over the old Grey Knight origin theory (and it was only a theory) and it helps separate their origin from the other theory that the Custodians are descended directly from the Emperor.

Also, it's great irony in classic 40k fashion that the greatest imperial weapon against chaos and the fallen primarchs comes from the traitor legions themselves.

cailus
24-09-2006, 12:28
P.S. I for one hope that neither GW or Sabertooth ever reveal the identity or fates of the missing Primarchs - the hints and theories are much more fun. I personally like the Sigmar idea (winces) - it makes a lot of sense from some viewpoints and is quite clever, but it would severly warp our conceptions of WHFB if GW did ever adopt it as canon. So it's more fun as a 'what if' concept.


I hope they do eventually. It would give us a sense of moving plotline.

Freak Ona Leash
24-09-2006, 12:40
I personally feel it's an improvement over the old Grey Knight origin theory (and it was only a theory) and it helps separate their origin from the other theory that the Custodians are descended directly from the Emperor.

Also, it's great irony in classic 40k fashion that the greatest imperial weapon against chaos and the fallen primarchs comes from the traitor legions themselves.
Indeed. Plus, it also tells us what happened to Garro and his lads, arguably some of the greatest heroes of the Imperium.

Talos402000
26-09-2006, 02:21
Hate to burst your bubble, but Garro died fighting in the Webway with his veteran company, the Grolkar. He was slain by the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince Ula, known as the Doom of Heroes. The Source for this was War in Webway by Sabertooth.

demiourgos
29-09-2006, 13:11
I thought the inclusion of XI in the novel was a cheap parlor trick, an illusion to engage a reader's attention away from the lacking prose of the novel.

Inquisitor Engel
30-09-2006, 05:13
I hope they do eventually. It would give us a sense of moving plotline.

Less is sometimes more.

Not having specifics means we can go into pretty much any level of detail we see fit. I've got some specifics on Eldar government GW could never go into detail about, because they don't want to tread on anyone's toes.

And besides, if we all knew EVERYTHING about everything it would turn into Star Wars or Star Trek, if it doesn't fit exactly within the known perameters of the Universe, everyone else hates it.

40k allows us to think and grow with the universe. Each expansion and explaination is careful to bring up as many, or more, questions as it answers, if it even answers any.

Khaine's Messenger
30-09-2006, 08:12
And besides, if we all knew EVERYTHING about everything it would turn into Star Wars or Star Trek, if it doesn't fit exactly within the known perameters of the Universe, everyone else hates it.

And both of those settings still have huge holes in their timelines, empty tracts of space, meaningless tech-jargon, and lots of unknowns to play with, which imho makes your point void (not only that, but there are "rabid fanboys" in 40k, too). Calling the lack of specifics a feature is to invite both the blessings and the curses of that generality.

Freak Ona Leash
30-09-2006, 11:12
Hate to burst your bubble, but Garro died fighting in the Webway with his veteran company, the Grolkar. He was slain by the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince Ula, known as the Doom of Heroes. The Source for this was War in Webway by Sabertooth.
Wow, I dislike Sabertooth now. Garro was cool damn it...

Inquisitor Engel
30-09-2006, 15:18
And both of those settings still have huge holes in their timelines, empty tracts of space, meaningless tech-jargon, and lots of unknowns to play with, which imho makes your point void

True, but what something has and what the fans choose to play with are quite different things. ;) Most people I've seen who write fan-fiction for Star Trek tend to stick it in either Kirk's generation or Picard's or even expand the adventures of people's favourite characters, sometimes completely ignoring some vaguely hidden, almost forgotten episode that contradicts something in that story, and people will jump over him immediately.

I've never seen anyone in 40k modify or change the adventures of an already established character, sure they may have their character be an understudy or influenced by a major character, but no actual major character. Sure I may be wrong, but the Universe is so much BIGGER than Star Trek's that people CAN do almost whatever they want.

The lack of specifics on it makes it more accessible for most people. Plus it seems like people who write their own fluff for 40k seem to enjoy adding to the universe, rather than modifying what's already there.

Voronwe[MQ]
30-09-2006, 20:18
Primarch number XI might have escaped the warp and landed upon a planet, perhaps being killed by Eldar seeing horrible visions of the future bound to his continued existence, (on the contrary the World Eater's primarch was the victim to an attempt - that failed) or maybe he lives there still, the world veiled by a nigh-too-permanent warp storm. Ah, speculations.

Mechanicus
30-09-2006, 20:28
Well, we definitely know that II and XI led their Legions at some point. We just don't know when, although pre-Horus being found and early after Horus being found is the most probable point in time.

Daemonslave
30-09-2006, 23:19
Well, we definitely know that II and XI led their Legions at some point. We just don't know when, although pre-Horus being found and early after Horus being found is the most probable point in time.

Plus the fact we have the quotes;

Almost half of the legions joined Horus
More than half the legions joined Horus
Fully half the legions joined Horus

which (regardless of the scribes knowledge) mathematically gives us only two possibilities:

1. It is 9 a side (plus fallen angels on Chaos side) - no involvement from the lost legions.

2. It is 10 vs 9 in favour of the Emperor - one of the missing legions fights the Heresy on His side.

But, in the Horus Heresy artbooks we have a quote from Horus where he details what every legion is doing. He even describes his plans and uses the term "this left, Guilliman, blah, blah" meaning he is accounting for all of them. Therefore this rules out the second possibility, which therefore PROVES that the lost legions did NOT take part in the Heresy.

Quite possibly they still exist at that time, and are in no position to affect the Heresy, but they definately did not take part - though I doubt this very much. To keep two entire legions quiet, they would have to be hidden at almost the outset of the Great Crusade, since while you can delete records, you cannot delete peoples memories and the stories they tell. The fewer number who know anything, the easier the secret would be to keep. If Horus Rising and the subsequent books are anything to go by, then there is a lot of coverage during this conquest, and so it would only be during the early stages of it, before the Crusade gets famous that they could go around unnoticed.

This, in my opinion, makes it almost definate that the missing Primarchs were found at the very beginning of the Great Crusade. Or perhaps, even earlier...;)

Freak Ona Leash
30-09-2006, 23:23
Im still waiting on an answer on who Primarch Rubineck of the Iron Hearts, mentioned in Hell in a Bottle, is. Short story in "Let The Galaxy Burn" collection of short stories and whatnot. Apparently him and his Marines got eaten by demons that came in through a gate in the wrap caused by theit training simulator.

Daemonslave
30-09-2006, 23:32
Probably a guy with just an honourific title. Could he turn invisible by any chance?;)

Freak Ona Leash
01-10-2006, 00:06
Probably a guy with just an honourific title. Could he turn invisible by any chance?;)
That was supposed to be a joke I know, but Im sadly not worldly enough to get it. :(

Wazzahamma
01-10-2006, 01:18
I think "Primarch" Rubineck has been dismissed before as a simple fluff mistake.

Khaine's Messenger
01-10-2006, 05:32
sometimes completely ignoring some vaguely hidden, almost forgotten episode that contradicts something in that story, and people will jump over him immediately.

Since some episodes within Trek contradict themselves more horribly than 40k has been known to contradict itself, I find that rather amusing.


I've never seen anyone in 40k modify or change the adventures of an already established character

That's because they don't have adventures, they have "events" that are basically historical blurbs. Well, most of the ones who're mentioned in the materials anyway...that's the thing about writing background to support the wargame.

Daemonslave
01-10-2006, 09:55
That was supposed to be a joke I know, but Im sadly not worldly enough to get it. :(

Not a joke really, but we a have a quote which says that one Primarch had the ability to turn himself invisible.

On a similar note, who were the three major gods of Greek myth (which a lot of 40k is based on)? Any similarities?;)

garro
01-10-2006, 10:46
Garro's Dead? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! That marine is my idol, how dare they kill him...bugger. Seriously though they should have left the mystery of his fate open..ok sorry off topic rant over.

Norminator
01-10-2006, 10:51
I was under the impression that the Eisenstien chaps defended the Imperial Palace from Chaos, whilst the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes fought in the webway?