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heretics bane
13-07-2006, 20:08
hi, is it possible to convert a heretic back to the light of the empoerer and what happened to loken of the the 10th company sons of horus after the heresy??

Outlaw289
13-07-2006, 20:16
Check this thread

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32327

Kage2020
13-07-2006, 20:40
One would imagine that redemption could be a powerful theme in the 40k universe, and I'm fairly sure that there is an example in the 'fluff' of such redemption. An Ultramarine and a daemon of Nurgle?

You could also reach to the arch-heretic himself: Horus. Okay, the redemption was short-lived, but on a scale of 1-100, in this case even a little is significant! :D

Kage

Crazy Tom
13-07-2006, 23:23
As for what happens to Loken, you'll have to read the books.

Though currently it's believed he could be one of those with untainted geneseed who founds the Grey Knights.

Inq. Veltane
14-07-2006, 00:39
Although, arguably, once you commit yourself to heresy you become tainted and that taint is veyr hard, arguably impossible to remove. Tainted is a very bad thing, and the Inquisition rightly shows no mercy. The Commissariat shows even less. So that only leaves Space Marines, who rarely commit heresy in the first place...

Chem-Dog
14-07-2006, 01:10
An Ultramarine and a daemon of Nurgle?

Daemonprince of Nurgle, Ultramarine and Seraphim, if you are thinking about the thing I'm thinking about.

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 01:16
Before I read the above thread - Do we know what happened to Loken? or do we have to wait for the next book?

Ok, my nice idea... Drum roll

Hes one of the Space Marines at the final fight between Horus and the Emp who intervines and gives the Emp a window to strike back... there was some old fluff that a Marine got involved and it turned the tide of the fight in the Emp favour...

Inq. Veltane
14-07-2006, 01:28
No, it was a guardsman originally... (although it was later changed to a Blood Angels terminator I believe...)

Kage2020
14-07-2006, 01:28
Daemonprince of Nurgle, Ultramarine and Seraphim, if you are thinking about the thing I'm thinking about.
That sounds like the kind of pile of twoddle that I expect, so you're probably right. In which case, that has also jogged a memory indicating that it was a poor example...?

Kage

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 01:32
No, it was a guardsman originally... (although it was later changed to a Blood Angels terminator I believe...)

How could it ever be a guardsman i wonder, supposedly some of the Emps best troops went nuts upon seeing the insides of that ship, lil own a normall human...
Fair enough if its a BA Terminator, would be cool if old Loken did somthing ninja - I mean, he has to die a heroes death no?

Captain Stern
14-07-2006, 01:47
After gauging the tone of the story so far, if I were the one writing the stage of the Heresy dealing with its culmination, then I'd actually have Loken turn 'traitor' right at the end. Horus' turning to Chaos wasn't explained in any real detail in False Gods, which leads me to the conclusion that the author of False Gods was either off his game or it might be the case that the authors of the series collectively have a big twist/shock type ennding prepared for us where, I'm predicting (or hoping against all hope more like), Horus will finally explain to Loken (and us) why he took the course of action that he did, which will finally win Loken over (and us?), or at least rationalize it to him (and us).

Outlaw289
14-07-2006, 02:10
How could it ever be a guardsman i wonder, supposedly some of the Emps best troops went nuts upon seeing the insides of that ship, lil own a normall human...
Fair enough if its a BA Terminator, would be cool if old Loken did somthing ninja - I mean, he has to die a heroes death no?

Ollanius Pius! :angel:

By 'lil own' you mean "let alone", correct??

Captain Gawain
14-07-2006, 02:26
I hope against hope that Loken stays true to his oaths to the Emperor. I have this scene running around in my head of Loken having a huge fight with Ol' Zeke Abbadon, and upon finally getting the upper hand, gets stabbed in the back by the Warmaster himself.

But I am an optomist...

heretics bane
14-07-2006, 10:29
i would'nt see why not, loken was incredble loyal to his oaths andhe always kinda seperated himself from the other marines/lodges, but abbadon on the other hand would probably defeat loken

Kriegsherr
14-07-2006, 12:34
Why not a guardsmen? Maybe he just thrown himself into the warmasters weapons to slow him down for a second :)

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 12:41
Because as it states that hundreds of the Emps top marines went mad upon entering the barge itself its hard to imagine a normall human being able to cope isnt it?

heretics bane
14-07-2006, 14:24
how could a gaurdy stop/delay a talon of horus,it would went rite threw him without even slowing him down!!!!

Havoc
14-07-2006, 15:11
Actually from the fluff I have read a Imperial Fist terminator attacked Horus after he saw horus absolutely kicking the living ***** out of him and got cooked in his armour.

I think loken is one of the marines who gets onto the Eienstein with the other loyal marines, it would be cool if he does get killed by Horus when he interupts his fight with the Emperor but I think the next book will end when the drop site massacre finishes

Lord Dante
14-07-2006, 16:12
My theory is based on the idea that Loken is the central character - and clearly has 'good' in him - He clearly doesnt fully understand horus action and at the end is very worried on the direction but his loaylty is to the Legion.

He clearly wont die early on so I assume hes going to be around towards the end of the book which surely ends with the death or Horus?

Hes got to be involved in some way, perhaps a major way - id love it if he some how 'saved' the Emp it would freaking cool! wouldnt it? am i to romantic?

heretics bane
14-07-2006, 17:23
that would be nice, loken dives on the killing blow for the emporer but takes the blow and dies, then the emporer destroys horus and has lokens body carried back to the palace and given a patch in a/the royal cemetarywhere he is buried and wrote about by rememberancers.

Khaine's Messenger
14-07-2006, 17:28
Actually, that's do-able. In Horus Rising it's demonstrated that Rogal Dorn has a measure of faith in Loken's stabilising influence on Horus...as the Mournival is partly the soul of the Warmaster, or somesuch. If Dorn meets Loken on Horus' battlebarge or something, and take it from there...could get interesting.

But eh. I personally won't be happy unless Loken is strangled to death by one of his close friends or otherwise meets a gribbly end, if only to emphasize that his once-powerful idealism has become as nothing in the face of the encroaching darkness...this final doom is something not even Horus or the Emperor can rationalize to his satisfaction without driving him insane. And as much as I would like a glimmer of hope, I think the end to the Heresy should ring hollow and sour.

Captain Gawain
15-07-2006, 03:26
i would'nt see why not, loken was incredble loyal to his oaths andhe always kinda seperated himself from the other marines/lodges, but abbadon on the other hand would probably defeat loken


I don't know...Lucius was apparently the best swordsman the Emp's Children had to offer, and Loken made him look like so much Beeotch.

Imagine the power of the scene: Loken uses Abaddon's rage against him, luring him into making mistakes and gaining the upper hand. He raises his chainsword to deliver the killing blow, a decapitating strike filled with all the anger the Loken has pent up inside of him.

At that moment, the point of a golden sword peirces the front of Loken's armour, his blood running down the green of his armour. He turns, ever so slowly to see his Primarch, the Warmaster himself...though now he is hardly recognisable as the noble being he once was.

tingles...

Wazzahamma
15-07-2006, 04:16
After gauging the tone of the story so far, if I were the one writing the stage of the Heresy dealing with its culmination, then I'd actually have Loken turn 'traitor' right at the end.

I think that you'll get this 'twist' with Torgaddon, rather than Loken. I'l put money on Loken staying loyal till the end, and Torgaddon betraying him.

As far as Lucius is concerned- he whipped Loken before he could blink during their second round in False Gods. They promised each other a third decider round...can anyone say foreshadowing? Hmmmm.

Chem-Dog
15-07-2006, 06:03
That sounds like the kind of pile of twoddle that I expect, so you're probably right. In which case, that has also jogged a memory indicating that it was a poor example...?

Kage

Short story in Inferno, Seraphim and Ultramarine are both on a planet (as part of a larger Imperial war effort), end up faced with a big Nugle Daemon Prince, the SoB's faith protects her where the Marine's "programming" cannot, she finally managed to escape but the Marine can't and is corrupted by the Daemon Prince who turns him into his own Champion.

The SoB is then sent to confront this Champion of Nurgle/Ex Ultramarine (who has an arm made out of purple crystal IIRC) who is on a ship or attacking one (I can't remember exactly, suffice to say they know where he is at some point) the SoB talks to this guy (whilst fighting him, it's not just a summit meeting ;)) and the true Marine under the corruption realises what has happened to him and makes an ultimate sacrifice taking the big bad Daemon Prince with him.

I've glossed over to give the general gist and haven't done it justice, it's not a bad piece of writing though.

Redemption is probably going to be fatal in the 41st Millenium.

fracas
15-07-2006, 11:43
Loken is the central character to the series thus far. if he dies, the series die.
but if he remain loyal or even turn traitor, then the series can continue after Horus's death


btw, i think the title "False Gods" refer not to the Chaos powers but the Primarchs, especially those of the fallen legions.

Chem-Dog
15-07-2006, 16:45
Loken is the central character to the series thus far. if he dies, the series die.

There is a book in the Horus Heresy series (NB there are more than just the 3 planned) slated for release March next year which is called "Flight of the Eisenstein"
March 2007 (April 2007 – US and Rest of World)

The Horus Heresy: Flight of the Eisenstein – Captain Garrow and the loyalist Death Guard race to warn Terra of the Heresy
(http://www.blacklibrary.com/news.asp?page=1&disp=25&id=158)

Now, this means that Loken could concievably survive beyond the trilogy that ends with Galaxy in flames, as the Death Guard Index Astartes article says that loyalists from other legions were aboard that ship too.... It does also mean that we don't need Loken to survive as Garrow (with or without the "w") could easily be the protagonist, obviously it would confuse the narrative of this trilogy so I think he will survive through to the end of book three, at least. Personal Preference is that Tarik and Loken make it out alive, perhaps one of them is the terminator that gives the Emperor his chance to kill Horus, but then I'm an old romantic :rolleyes: .

Buddha777
15-07-2006, 19:54
Well to put hopefully put some of this to rest, we know that torgaddon probably turns evil as they show him in so in the horus hersay art books. I would wager though that Loken will either be killed at istvaan or survive with captain gorro of the death guard and survive the flight of the eninstein (which meets up with Rogal Dorn so the relationship between the 2 may help spur the primarch into beliving what had happened).

I'm just waiting for when Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Childen to lead the resitence on istvaan, although I'm also willing to wager that he gets killed by lucius, them being friends and all.

But I'm also looking forward to understanding what happened to loyalists on Istvaan as there is very little written about the fight the raven guard, iron hands, and salamanders endured.

Kage2020
15-07-2006, 20:11
I've glossed over to give the general gist and haven't done it justice, it's not a bad piece of writing though.
Thanks for the reminder of the "plot". While it might not be a bad piece of writing, it like much of the other BL literature isn't great either. ;)

Kage

Totem
15-07-2006, 21:40
But eh. I personally won't be happy unless Loken is strangled to death by one of his close friends or otherwise meets a gribbly end, if only to emphasize that his once-powerful idealism has become as nothing in the face of the encroaching darkness...this final doom is something not even Horus or the Emperor can rationalize to his satisfaction without driving him insane. And as much as I would like a glimmer of hope, I think the end to the Heresy should ring hollow and sour.

Speaking of "closest friends", I am suspicious that the marine that shot Varvarus when Angron was going buck-nuts was Nero Vipus, but I suppose we'll see in a later book what really happened. The fact that Vipus was a lodge member for such a long time and kept that from Loken makes me suspicious of him, especially since the actions of Vipus were bairly mentioned in the Angron-frenzy, of even the entire battle of the Iron Citadel for that matter.


Well to put hopefully put some of this to rest, we know that torgaddon probably turns evil as they show him in so in the horus hersay art books.

Say it ain't so!!!

Kage2020
15-07-2006, 22:06
That last sounds like it needs a picture to prove it! :D

Kage

Captain Stern
15-07-2006, 22:43
I've never seen this Sabertooth card for Torgaddon...

Flame of Udun
15-07-2006, 23:01
I can't provide a pic as my scanner is down but anybody who has the fourth HH art book turn to page 48, for the bottom pic, beneath the custodian guard, the caption reads: TORGADDON HORUS'S BODYGUARD: SONS OF HORUS: JOHN HODGESON.

Captain Stern
15-07-2006, 23:16
I don't think it exists!

Kage2020
15-07-2006, 23:25
Well, the above seems to suggest otherwise, Captain Stern. Guess we have to wait for someone to prove otherwise, though! :D

Kage

Chem-Dog
16-07-2006, 00:42
Thanks for the reminder of the "plot". While it might not be a bad piece of writing, it like much of the other BL literature isn't great either. ;)

Kage

Not that we could call anything that BL puts out "literature"... Not technically anyway. ;)

Wazzahamma
16-07-2006, 05:24
I've heard this Torgaddon-champion of chaos thing elsewhere on the net...I think he appeared as such in an earlier art book than 4. That's why I made the (very easy) bet that he'd turn evil and betray Loken.

Also, the updated version of the fight between the Emperor and Horus has a lone custodian rather than terminator attack Horus and wake the Emperor up out of his delusion. It also throws in some really cheesy parting words from Horus which made me puke on my keyboard. The original version was quite nicely written and I prefer it.

Fir Lirithion
16-07-2006, 08:26
hello :)

About the Torgaddon thing, is it possible that Loken is killed and then due to Torgaddon's sorrow, turns to chaos? I would much rather prefer that then actually turning evil and betry Loken :P

kinda OT, but what did you guys think about Aximand? To me he seemed was quite... erm... good. It would've been cool if it was Aximand, Torgaddon and Loken vs Abaddon... and would've been a nice twist that 'Little Horus' would go against Horus.

The lone custodian thing is lame compared with the BA Termie. For some reason I always thought the custodians stayed at the Palace :S

Wazzahamma
16-07-2006, 08:38
Well, anything is possible. I just have a sneaking suspicion that if Torgaddon is due to turn to chaos at some point, it will be when Loken needs him most, which will make events all the more tragic. For my money, Torgaddon seems a strong willed individual with powerful morals- I'd bet that he is forcibly possessed, rather than corrupted.

And yes, Aximand is also 'good' or at least loyal and moral (hell, Abaddon was so in Horus Rising as well. By the standards of today's marines, Abaddon was almost a pacifist), and he was unsure of the lodge's decision to the point where he almost opposed it outright. In the end though, he gave in to the sheer weight of thier influence and the responsibility of saving the warmaster. As Lokrn wondered himself- if he had been present at the meeting instead of Aximand, he might have felt pressured to agree to the same. If things had turned out slightly differently, perhaps Aximand would have stood at Loken's side against Abaddon.

jaalmo
16-07-2006, 09:52
As for what happens to Loken, you'll have to read the books.

Though currently it's believed he could be one of those with untainted geneseed who founds the Grey Knights.

This is just what I have always believed. The loyal marines that escaped were chosen to found the Grey Knights. They have the most reason to hate Chaos. They have proven there loyalty to the Emperor. And it is stated in in numerous sources that the Emperor ordered the creation of the Grey Knights himself. That had to happen before he was put in to the Golden Throne.

Is there any thing that supports this theory?

heretics bane
16-07-2006, 11:14
This is just what I have always believed. The loyal marines that escaped were chosen to found the Grey Knights. They have the most reason to hate Chaos. They have proven there loyalty to the Emperor. And it is stated in in numerous sources that the Emperor ordered the creation of the Grey Knights himself. That had to happen before he was put in to the Golden Throne.

Is there any thing that supports this theory?
well those that survived must be "immune to the whispers of chaos,so they where asked to found the grey knights since they would be strong enough to endure the chaos whispers.also was lucis of the world eaters become lucius the eternal later on in the heresy??

Wazzahamma
16-07-2006, 12:00
8 of the Eisenstein loyalists are hinted at becoming the proto or founding fathers of the Grey Knights in the 4th Horus Heresy artbook.

And it's Lucius of the Emperor's Children that becomes Lucius the Eternal.

Crazy Tom
16-07-2006, 13:14
Horus' turning to Chaos wasn't explained in any real detail in False Gods, which leads me to the conclusion that the author of False Gods was either off his game or it might be the case that the authors of the series collectively have a big twist/shock type ennding prepared for us where, I'm predicting (or hoping against all hope more like), Horus will finally explain to Loken (and us) why he took the course of action that he did, which will finally win Loken over (and us?), or at least rationalize it to him (and us).

Allow me to explain...

Horus turned to Chaos because he was shown a nightmare vision of a Shrine World - that goes against everything the Emperor stood for. Horus believed that future would come about (and his statue wouldn't be present on the Shrine World) because the Emperor would discard him once the war was done and the Crusade finished. Fool. But in actual fact, we know that the world Horus saw in the one that he is responsible for creating.

The vast portion of incidents we see in the book are from Loken's perspective, so I believe it's likely that the narrative concerning him will be mainly geared towards getting him to all the places that are important. This 'Eisenstein' business sounds like an appropriate way to get Loken to Terra in time for the Seige, so he can witness Sanguinis battling the BLoodthirster. He may go on board Horus' battle barge, he may not. Though to have him fighting alongside the Emperor but get separated at the critical juncture would be fantastic - he can only watch helplessly. Then he's taken back to Terra and becomes one of the founding geneseed fathers for the Grey Knights - seeing as he'd be one of the only Lunar Wolves not to be corrupted by Chaos.

As for a paradigm shift, I think this is likely - rather than just GW / BL starting this uplifting series of books and then shocking us. If you look at the way WH40K is going, it's becoming a lot more dynamic - even though the focus is still war, there is now hope - which makes the war all the more terrible. Look at the Tau - an expanding race dedicated to the greater good, mostly immune to Chaos, using advanced technology.

Still, the outcome of the Horus Heresy series is going to be depressing simply because we know what happens - even if they make it look like a bright new era with the threat of Chaos turned back, we still know that they're in much same place come ten thousand years in the future. Unless links are made to the Emperor's return / the Star Child, it's going to be sad.

Totem
16-07-2006, 15:23
kinda OT, but what did you guys think about Aximand? To me he seemed was quite... erm... good. It would've been cool if it was Aximand, Torgaddon and Loken vs Abaddon... and would've been a nice twist that 'Little Horus' would go against Horus.

The reason I would say this wouldn't happen is because Aximand is just too devoted to Horus. Where he buckled under the lodge to take the Warmaster to the Lodge of the Serpent, I'm not sure that Loken would have. He is called "Little Horus" for a reason. It's the same with 'Zeke. Where a lot of the time he was painted as a Khornate Berzerker, the truth is that his love for Horus is what drove him to Chaos. Just look at how he acted (I think it was when) Horus originally fell and he was openly weeping in front of everyone. That is very strange for an astartes and just shows how devoted he is to the Warmaster. It is the same when they are in the medical bay on the Vengeful Spirit and he almost takes the head off of the Chief Apothecary and has to be escorted out.

Chem-Dog
16-07-2006, 16:11
By the standards of today's marines, Abaddon was almost a pacifist.
I think his views on the Interex disprove this.


That had to happen before he was put in to the Golden Throne.
The Emperor was conversive for quite some time after his clash with Horus, it's possible he gave intruction after then.


Horus turned to Chaos because he was shown a nightmare vision of a Shrine World - that goes against everything the Emperor stood for. Horus believed that future would come about (and his statue wouldn't be present on the Shrine World) because the Emperor would discard him once the war was done and the Crusade finished.

Interestingly, he was shown a vision of the future Imperium as it IS meaning the Chaos gods knew exactly what was going to happen.... Predestiny is a bitch.

Dspankdo
16-07-2006, 16:11
For some reason the horus heresy lloks like it would be awesome as a holiwood epic, just imagine rogal dorn carrying the crippled body of the emperor into the emperors palace flanked by escort of custodians.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
16-07-2006, 17:07
Interestingly, he was shown a vision of the future Imperium as it IS meaning the Chaos gods knew exactly what was going to happen.... Predestiny is a bitch.

Highly doubtful. More likely they knew it was a possible future, in the same way the eldar see the many paths.

Rob

Wazzahamma
16-07-2006, 17:56
I think his views on the Interex disprove this.

I did say almost.;) Besides, his attitude towards the Interex is not out of line for a 'modern day' Space Marine to have (and in line with what the Emperor had decreed), but the fact that he still pleaded with the false emperor to see reason, even after he'd wiped out two Luna Wolf teams (including Sejanus, pride of their legion) was quite humane and reasonable.

Chem-Dog
16-07-2006, 20:29
Highly doubtful. More likely they knew it was a possible future, in the same way the eldar see the many paths.

Rob


You DoUbT the
VisIon oF TzeeeeeencH?

(sorry)

Kage2020
16-07-2006, 20:50
Not that we could call anything that BL puts out "literature"... Not technically anyway. ;)
LOL. Indeed, which is why when they get close (or actually hit the mark), I feel that it is important to stand up and go "whoo whoo" and wave my arms in that annoying circular fashion, perhaps even throwing in a "woof woof" as well.

;)

BL really did come out with a stonker on this series. They've handled a potentially sore topic with reasonable finesse.

So, "whoo whoo..."

Kage

heretics bane
17-07-2006, 10:14
so even if he becomes one of the founders the grey knights what happens to him after that?

Totem
19-07-2006, 01:34
so even if he becomes one of the founders the grey knights what happens to him after that?
He pwns some demons. Maybe he's one of the Grey Knights that kill Angron.