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Kryntik
18-02-2017, 00:12
If marines from the Blood Angels chapter are apt to becoming frothing murderers at the onset of the Black Rage, and the BR stems from some deep-seated flaw with their gene-seed then why are there older members of the chapter (specifically Dante) who have not ever shown any signs of succumbing to this genetic flaw? We know that the BR can be completely overcome as was shown by Sgt Raphen and Mephiston, and that it can be somewhat controlled by Lemartes, but this doesn't answer why Dante is seemingly immune to its effects. Why is this?

DYoung
18-02-2017, 06:08
If marines from the Blood Angels chapter are apt to becoming frothing murderers at the onset of the Black Rage, and the BR stems from some deep-seated flaw with their gene-seed then why are there older members of the chapter (specifically Dante) who have not ever shown any signs of succumbing to this genetic flaw? We know that the BR can be completely overcome as was shown by Sgt Raphen and Mephiston, and that it can be somewhat controlled by Lemartes, but this doesn't answer why Dante is seemingly immune to its effects. Why is this?

Because he's just that awesome.

Lord Damocles
18-02-2017, 06:45
The Black Rage isn't an inevitability.

Kryntik
18-02-2017, 18:52
Because he's just that awesome.

Oh yes, how could I have forgotten. My mistake.

If it isn't an inevitability could you then compare it to having cancer prevalent in your family? Just because some get it doesn't mean that all will?

theJ
18-02-2017, 20:08
...yes. Yes, that is fairly accurate. A heckuvva lot of angels fall to the Black Rage, of all stripes and ages, with no prior warning, and seemingly no reason.... but not all of them.

Rogue Star
19-02-2017, 07:22
If it isn't an inevitability could you then compare it to having cancer prevalent in your family? Just because some get it doesn't mean that all will?

Dante, like all Blood Angels, still suffers from the Red Thirst, which descent into leads to the Black Rage. That he hasn't fallen is an example of exceptional willpower. He's not just immune and never felt it burden or something.

Lupe
27-02-2017, 02:14
If it isn't an inevitability could you then compare it to having cancer prevalent in your family? Just because some get it doesn't mean that all will?

Yeah, pretty much. Except I'm not really sure if cancer is actually a hereditary disease, and even if there,s no hereditary predisposition towards it, cancer can still be caused by external factors, like smoking or exposure to radiation (don't use that argument against me - I still see the logic behind the example). I'd say hemophilia is a much better example of a hereditary disease... And a lot more in line with the whole blood theme the Blood Angels have:P

Although, this is still an interesting point you brought up about the Blood Angels' genetic flaws.
Let's go back to the example of cancer that you brought up (again, I really have no clue if a predisposition towards cancer is hereditary - but that's because I never actually thought to do any research on that specific topic - I had a grand total of 1 lung cancer case in my family, based on empirical evidence of upwards to 70 people across 5 generations, so that wasn't a topic I actually gave much thought to).

Let's say that a history of lung cancer in your ancestors does actually mean you're actually born with a chance to eventually develop lung cancer yourself at some point in your life. So, at birth, it's still a roll of the dice whether you'll actually end up with it or not. There are ways to increase the likelihood of getting lung cancer. Some things might be outside of your control - like constant, passive exposure to substances like asbestos, radon gas, or silica. Other factors outside of your control would be immunity deficiencies or previous lung diseases, such as tuberculosis, or even physical damage to the lung - maybe a collapsed lung or a stab wound. However, other factors will be clearly within your control - such as smoking or possibly vaping.

Conversely, there would be ways to decrease the chance of getting lung cancer. Avoid exposure to said chemicals, don't smoke, try not to get your lungs damaged, treat your common cold on time and take your cold medication for the full period, not just until you stop coughing. I suppose you could even be proactive about it like engaging in activities that encourage healthy lung development - thin swimming, mountain climbing, etc.

*******

Anyway, horrific real life diseases out of the way now.

The fluff explicitly states that, both the Black Rage and the Red Thirst are conditions specifically tied to the Blood Angels' geneseed.

Given the above examples (i.e hemophilia, and how it's clearly hereditary, but not 100% guaranteed and how the likelyhood of lung cancer can be increased or decreased by outside factors), I'd say that neither of the two conditions are an inevitable outcome for a Blood Angel.

The problem is, we don't know what the outside factors are for increasing the likelihood. It could be as simple as a flat roll of the dice, such as Sanguinius' geneseed interacting adversely with the specific DNA of that particular individual leading to a ticking timebomb. Or it could be just something that lies dormant in every single individual and only activates after sufficient exposure to a specific factor - an undentified specific factor, mind you - and that factor could be anything, from a hormone such as adrenaline and endorphin, to Baal's radiations, to maybe even a mental trigger.

The point is, we don't know. it's never been accurately explained *WHAT* causes either of these conditions. All we're seeing is the symptoms and a vague approximation of the percentage of subjects affected by them. And we've never been given an explanation of these illnesses work because A)nobody put the effort into doing any research when writing the lore and B)it would have been waaaay too much needless info just to explain the flavor of a single chapter

But here's where it hit me... here's where it all makes sense. We have no idea how the Red Thirst or Black Rage Work. Well, guess what... neither does anyone in 40K... and, somehow, I find that absolutely brilliant. It's totally keeping in tone with the way the Imperium works. The whole technology without understanding vibe. It's just perfect. Yeah, it's an unintended consequence of somebody writing a backstory with very little effort. but the in-universe implication just somehow furthers the whole idea of the universe we're talking about...

So, given that point of view, do we really want to know more?

Lord Damocles
27-02-2017, 18:00
The fluff explicitly states that, both the Black Rage and the Red Thirst are conditions specifically tied to the Blood Angels' geneseed.

...I'd say that neither of the two conditions are an inevitable outcome for a Blood Angel.
This is also evidenced by the Blood Angel successors who exhibit fewer incidences of the Thirst/Rage - for example the Lamenters who went for a period without the flaw showing itself, or the Angels Resplendent who were free of the gene-curse until they became the Angels Penitent.

Lupe
28-02-2017, 00:27
This is also evidenced by the Blood Angel successors who exhibit fewer incidences of the Thirst/Rage - for example the Lamenters who went for a period without the flaw showing itself, or the Angels Resplendent who were free of the gene-curse until they became the Angels Penitent.

Yes, quite.

Problem is, the fluff is pretty short and straightforward in those examples. It just gives us the "here's what happened"

The interesting part is speculating about the exact mechanisms behind those conditions. Figuring out the 'why and how", if you like.

Amarysia
05-03-2017, 01:24
I think this is a subtle reference (or perhaps not) to the HI Virus.

While they all succumb to the virus, from the drinking of contaminated blood (the whole drinking Sang's blood from a chalice to become a BA), albeit it a psi-/psychoactive type reaction than a physical type reaction.

So everyone is affected by the BAV (Blood Angels Virus), but not everyone will succumb to the crippling Black Rage, but with increasing exposure to The Red Thirst will they hasten the effects.

The Black Rage can also be attributed to the effects of Rabies has on an animal. They get batshit insane and if left untreated, they soon die. They are few examples that people have succumbed to the diseased but have "willed" themselves back to treatment.