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xibo
14-07-2006, 19:28
How do Chaos Space Marines refill their ranks? I mean SM train scouts to become space marines, but what do CSM do? I can't think they train cultists because they (imo) think cultists are pathetic weaklings that are only useable as fodder. On the other side (imo again) blood pact might just think to be better than the astartes, and also not be availible for conscripting.
Maybe some sourcerors who gained insane skills just _summon_ new CSM or _resurrect_ the fallen ones... but what do legions without such capable sourcerors do? CSM seem to take heavy casualties each crusade they wage, and even if each csm (fluffwise) kills 10000 guardsmen before dying, they will still be erased some day.

So how do CSM reinforce their ranks?

Khaine's Messenger
14-07-2006, 19:37
The last thread on this topic has only fallen to page two. :p >link (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41936)< ;)

Of course, the simple answer is "they do." Worrying about how is something else, of course, but keep in mind that the CSM are not the most common form of Chaos warrior.

xibo
14-07-2006, 20:15
[...] but keep in mind that the CSM are not the most common form of Chaos warrior.
Of cause they're not. But CSM and BP are the only chaos warriors the dark gods wouldn't sacrifice 'just for fun' (ok, khorne maybe would). If a chaos cult is cleansed the chaos simply whispers to someone else and a new cult is formed. If a CSM legion is destroyed I guess they can't be replaced that easily.
Also theres the problem with the gods rivaling. Most probably the thousand sons and the plagemarines take more casualties from each other than they do from the imperial forces, but these casualties are taken in the warp, where they can't simply fall back and hope the enemies magic doesn't reach them.

From the link you posted I guess it seems the 1000 sons have some kind of wraithstones, most probably taken from defeated eldar, but whats with... lets say khorne? khorne's space marines just (imo) like to kill everything they see to get more blood and skulls for the skull-throne.
Also this gene-seed installation... the first warpinternal war may result in some faction destroying it, or at least the other legions gene seed, i think.

Khaine's Messenger
14-07-2006, 20:51
As said...most of the questions regarding how CSM keep their numbers up have handwavey answers. Geneseed is rare, yes, but that's why Fabius Bile has such a large number of clients and is essentially a major power broker for the Chaos Legions and the massive geneseed storehouse was such a big thing (of course, it has since become forgotten, since it was pretty much a one-note plot device used to beef up the tagline that the fate of the Imperium is at hand, etc.). Between more brutal forms of loyalist implantation (the big thing), mutations (inflicted by sorcery or as daemonic gifts), serial reincarnation, the time warp of the aethyr, and "whatever else your imagination desires," CSM keep their numbers at passable levels. The only legion to come close to being eradicated was the Black Legion, and they've been doing astonishingly well lately.

Yes, Chaos forces probably don't have a 50 year turnaround for generating the geneseed for a full chapter (which is, iirc, roundabouts the "official" time for generating a chapter's worth of geneseed), and thanks to mutations and their "savagery" they probably have an even lower turnaround rate for recruits than loyalists, but...from what we're aware of, they're able to keep their numbers reasonably steady.

Lord of ???
15-07-2006, 03:26
They have a nastier recruiting process than even the most savage of SM Chapters. This ensures that only the strongest most cunning and savage of warriors live to see the chance of getting geneseed.

Lord_Robot
15-07-2006, 03:51
Yeah, in the Chaos Codex, there is a short story about the Tabor (cultists) and the Prophet ( a Black Legion Champ), and the only way for one of the millions of Tabor (Who battle the Imperium for some random planet) to rise to the ranks of a CSM is to kill a Space Marine. It shows that CSMs recruit new CSMs, and have the ability to make new ones.

I forget where this story is, but I really, REALLY like it. It has an ultra awsome fight between Bloodthirsters and Space Marines. The Cultist describes the battle as a fight between gods.

Chem-Dog
15-07-2006, 06:07
There was a story in Inferno about a Character similar to Fabius Bile who used Loyalist Marine Geneseed to make new CSM's (features the Avenging Sons, a Chapter I belive Forge World have adopted for a future project), Bile himself will work for anyone who is willing to pay the price, all you got to do then is find a nice young psycho and implant him, CSM selection works after this in a simple system, you live/you don't.

masecase
15-07-2006, 16:22
It seems, that often Chaos Marines are unable to replenish their ranks with the normal ways of implanting genseed like loyalists do, since it degenerated so much. Now they often make use of alternatives to recieve similiar results, maybe they use drugs and therapies like the emperor did during the horus heresy to make full grown men into marine equivalents even if they are to old, to get any results from the normal genseeds. Fabius Bile, as allready said could provide those alternatives or he produces uncorrupted genseed. I also heard, that he gave on some of his knowledge to the legions.

Chem-Dog
15-07-2006, 16:28
Yes, the process of turning older people into Marines involves an extremely painful programme of surgery as the implants that would grow inside a younger candidate would be inserted fully grown, this would probably be seen as the method for weeding out the weak, if you don't survive the process, tough.

malika
15-07-2006, 16:36
Stealing Geneseed is also a method. Cypher gave Abaddon lots of Dark Angels Geneseed IIRC and the Iron Warriors stole a whole bunch from the Imperial Fists. The Defilers also needed a Space Marine sacrifice IIRC.

Recruits would be taken from various daemonworlds within the EOT I guess, let them fight amongst themselves and let the strongest become Marines.

The Alpha Legion would have units prove their worth, either the whole unit succeeds or they all die...individualism wasnt that praised in the Alpha Legion.

malisteen
16-07-2006, 03:33
Let's see.. theories.

Fabius Bile: He has performed enhancement experiments that at this point may be tantamount to creating the equivalent of space marines from normal mutants even without geneseed. He's also unlocked the secrets of cloning, potentially cloning marine gene-seed or even entire chaos marines. He's a major power broker because of this.

Thousand Sons: Thousand sons automatons were created involuntarily by a massive spell. Theoretically (though I haven't read this anywhere), smaller versions of that spell could create small handfulls of automatons at a time from captured marines.

Normal Recruitment: Alpha Legion is assumed to recruit new marines in a similar method to regular marines, both from cultists and rebellions on various worlds and potentially from their Primarch's homeworld, which is still unknown. (assuming he ever had one). Other Legions may do the same on a smaller scale, though more rampant mutations are likely to render geneseed unusable within the Legions within the eye

Conversion: Loyalists space marines are prone to conversion to chaos, even if such is rare. Entire marine chapters have turned to chaos (red coursairs), as have individual marines or squads of marines seperated from their chapters. This is extremely rare, but is known to take place within the Red Coursairs, and is likely with the Word Bearers (speculation on my part).

Stolen Geneseed: Chaos space marines are known to value marine geneseed quite highly, using it in sacrifices in particular. Theoretically it could also be used to create new marines.

Long Lived: Chaos marines (at least in the eye) don't age (or at least not at the normal rate), and thus in theory don't need to recruit nearly as often. Those few chaos marines who attain the rank of daemon prince become effectively immortal. Only a few particularly powerful psychics specially trained with particularly powerful weapons are able to snuff out the soul-self of a daemon entirely- mere destruction of their physical bodies is at best a temporary solution.


Other, more bizarre options are possible. Reincarnation/Possession, a la Lucious the Eternal is one example. Temporal Dislocation through the warp can cause there to be more chaos marines in one place in time then normally possible. For instance, the surviving chaos marines of a battle might be taken by the chaos gods after the fight and deposited back at the start of the battle, allowing them to fight a second time, effectively doubling the number of marines at the battle. Chaos marines killed in a battle might have a past version of themselves stolen from time and returned at a point after their deaths, skipping death entirely. Such time travel is completely hypothetical, and even if possible in the 40k universe, would be quite difficult and rare, but it is another possible factor for the sustained numbers of chaos marines.

Zzarchov
16-07-2006, 03:47
If I recall the old fluff was at point at least implied heavily that the reason was you couldn't kill chaos space marines, even though they often wanted to die. When a CSM fell the gods simply remade him that he may continue to amuse them as a plaything in eternal suffering.

The only one I know anything like this still applies to is the thousand sons, where the dust reforms back into the armour eventually and it needs only be resealed.

Outlaw289
16-07-2006, 04:06
If I recall the old fluff was at point at least implied heavily that the reason was you couldn't kill chaos space marines, even though they often wanted to die. When a CSM fell the gods simply remade him that he may continue to amuse them as a plaything in eternal suffering.

I personally like the old fluff

Continually resurrected to serve their Masters :evilgrin: