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DeathlessDraich
15-07-2006, 17:14
This is the situation

Unit A and B are in combat.
Unit C charges B in the flank.
Unit B fails the panic test and A elects to pursue.

B's fleeing move is smaller than C's charging distance AND smaller than A's pursue roll.

Q1. Which unit has caught B or do both units simultaneously catch B?

'Simultaneous' is not quite in keeping with Warhammer.

Q2. What is the correct sequence of moves in this case?

Fleeing is first obviously.
A dice roll was my suggestion for the second move but the players agreed to let the charger move first followed by the pursuers mainly to avoid a further complexity of redirecting the charge into a fear causer. :eek:

Q3. Will C move its full charging distance if it is decided that A catches B (as well or instead of A) or will C move half its distance?

It doesn't seem like a failed charge.

A complex situation as it stands without the redirect into the fear causer which could have happened. I hope I've explained it sufficiently.

Thanks

Nell2ThaIzzay
15-07-2006, 18:44
I am by no means a rules expert, so this might not be the way it's done.

But the way I'd probably say it'd be done is that unit B is destroyed (caught by both enemy units), unit A that pursued will move however many inches was rolled, and unit C would have to move it's charge range towards unit B. Seeing as how you're chasing the unit down, I don't know that a redirect would be allowed.

McMullet
15-07-2006, 18:54
Pursuit is one of those things that IS simultaneous. Remember, every combat that occurs resolves its fleeing/pursuit simultaneously (at the moment, to be changed in 7th ed.).

For the puposes of capturing standards, the unit with highest unit stength counts as destroying the fleer IIRC. If you were "pursuing" the fleer with the charging unit, I don't think they could redirect as their movement for that turn was the running down of unit B.

I hope I've understood you OK and answered the question you actually asked there.

SuperBeast
16-07-2006, 09:59
First up, remember that unit A can ONLY pursue if it has already won a round of combat against unit B.
If it has just charged, or drew/was beaten last round, it cannot pursue.

Some of what goes on is a bit vague under the rules (thankfully being tidied up in September..:)), but the way it should go is thus (best interpretation).

Unit C can catch them, so they WILL move their full distance. They declared a charge against unit B, so they must go for unit B.
They can catch unit B.
So they move their full charge distance 'through' unit B, and unit B is removed.

What happens next falls into two schools fo thought...
There would be no unit for unit A to pursue, as by the time that unit C's "move chargers" action has ended, there is no longer a unit for them to pursue.

Or, unit A gets it's pursuit move, and is positioned accordingly relative to unit C's final position.

DeathlessDraich
16-07-2006, 10:43
Thanks guys.

For once there is a consensus and after giving it more thought I agee!:)


Seeing as how you're chasing the unit down, I don't know that a redirect would be allowed.

It would not be allowed but in the in the actual game, while we were discussing the correct sequence, it was observed that if only the pursuing unit caught the fleers and not the chargers, then it would be possible for the chargers to redirect.

It is more complex with the redirect. See below.


Pursuit is one of those things that IS simultaneous. Remember, every combat that occurs resolves its fleeing/pursuit simultaneously (at the moment, to be changed in 7th ed.).


You're right of course.


First up, remember that unit A can ONLY pursue if it has already won a round of combat against unit B.
If it has just charged, or drew/was beaten last round, it cannot pursue.


Forgot about that:eek: but fortunately it was the second round of combat and I think (A) won previously.


Since panic was caused by the charge therefore the chargers must move before the pursuers. Therefore the sequence you suggested is correct:

1. C declares a charge on B.
2. B panics not because of the charge declaration but being hit in the flank while in combat. Therefore the chargers (C) must at least start to move towards B's flank.
3. (A) elects to pursue.
4. (B) and (A) roll their dice simultaneously.
5. (C) which has started charging must complete its charge before (A) moves, destroying B.
6. Both A and C move their full distance in the flee direction.


The redirect into a fear causer version which didn't happen in the game. (I think the players were tired of my lengthy rules explanations :D and chose simplicity!).

After a cursory look at the redirect rules, I think (C) could have declared a redirect after (4) above.


Any comments on this interpretation?

This gives the charging player an advantage since he is able to destroy one unit and charge another.

BUT if (C) fails the fear test, after redirecting, it would not move. Does this mean it could not have caused panic? :confused:

mageith
16-07-2006, 16:36
Since panic was caused by the charge therefore the chargers must move before the pursuers. Therefore the sequence you suggested is correct:

1. C declares a charge on B.
2. B panics not because of the charge declaration but being hit in the flank while in combat.

Where does this come from? The test is made "as soon as the charge is declared and determined to be in reach". (80) The charger continues his Charge Move (or failed charge) just like normal. We are not yet in the combat phase.

Since we are still Moving Charges, the target flees and the Charger runs him down. Target unit is removed.



3. (A) elects to pursue.

I don't agree. Pursuit occurs much later in the sequence. You are playing it like 7th edition, not like sixth. If Unit A can pursue, it will only happen at the appropriate time (when combat is over) and by then the target unit is long gone. A would only be able to pursue if the target survived from being charged in the side.

"If a unit wins the combat and all the enemies it is fighting flee, then the victorious unit must normally pursue." (75) This rule occurs a long time after the combat is over.



4. (B) and (A) roll their dice simultaneously.
5. (C) which has started charging must complete its charge before (A) moves, destroying B.
6. Both A and C move their full distance in the flee direction.

All the above ensues from two wrong interpretations. Poor A just sits there.

Festus
16-07-2006, 18:29
Hi

I think that unit A may pursue if it won the previous round of combat against unit B:
"If a unit wins the combat and all the enemies it is fighting flee, then the victorious unit must normally pursue."
A won the combat and its enemy it is fighting flees: it pursues.

Pursuit does not necessarily occur *much later in the sequence*. Its requirements are met IMO.

p. 43, second column...

mageith
16-07-2006, 20:35
p. 43, second column...

WoW! I'm impressed. You found a very elastic section that has no direct bearing on the question at hand. No arguing with an obscure paragraph entitled EXCEPTIONS that follows IMPROVISING.

The examples given for exceptions are "springing a bear trap or sinking into quicksand".

I assume you are referencing "when events can be worked out in one phase or another with little real difference."

I suppose whether Unit A sits there or pursues in the sideways direction it must pursue will make little difference in the current situation but it could make a big difference if another unit is down the road and another pursuit into fresh enemy occurs. I don't see this situation reaching to the level of "springing a bear trap or sinking into quicksand" to apply as an exception.

I can't prove it, of course, because, well, that's the nature of EXCEPTIONS.

Impressive.

Mage Ith

mageith
16-07-2006, 20:51
Hi

I think that unit A may pursue if it won the previous round of combat against unit B:
"If a unit wins the combat and all the enemies it is fighting flee, then the victorious unit must normally pursue."
A won the combat and its enemy it is fighting flees: it pursues.

I agree so far.



Pursuit does not necessarily occur *much later in the sequence*. Its requirements are met IMO.

All the requirements except the sequence in combat resolution in which pursuit normally occurs, that is. Doing things out of sequence often leads to weirdness.

However, GW has apparently decided that this way is not so weird and so 7th edition will certainly allow, maybe require, a unit that won combat in the previous turn to pursue or attempt to restrain.

Actually I think there's a FAQ or mention in an article that deals with this situation or a similar one, but I can't find it. I don't think the EXCEPTION reference you used above however has much to do with it. It's too broad.

Mage Ith

Festus
16-07-2006, 21:04
Hi

What about a Unit in combat that flees because of Terror?

mageith
16-07-2006, 21:15
For the puposes of capturing standards, the unit with highest unit stength counts as destroying the fleer IIRC.

Only a unit that defeated and BROKE a unit in close combat can capture a banner. So in the case at hand, so only if Unit A, the unit that had defeated unit B the turn beforem could collect the banner bonus. Unit C could never collect the banner since it never defeated B in combat and Unit B was never broken by anyone.

So assuming for the moment Unit A could pursue, as everyone seems to think, would it, could it collect the banner?

Well unit strength is sort of the criteria, but its only implied. "To find out how far they pursue, starting with the unit with the highest unit strength..." (75)
So the unit with the highest unit strength moves first AMONG THOSE WHO ARE IN COMBAT. This is not quite the case at hand.

Clearly Unit C, the new charger, is moving first and has the momentum. The rules, however are silent on whether this makes a difference.

Now let's see page 109, where the rules of capturing banners are located. Again the rules are silent on which unit among eligible units gets the banner bonus.

However, the banner is not captured because "standards are only lost if the unit is defeated and broken in close combat, not if the unit that flees after it has panicked...." (109)

So, Unit B was not "broken in close combat" evn though it was previously defeated. So even if pursuit is required, no banner will ever be collected for VP.



If you were "pursuing" the fleer with the charging unit, I don't think they could redirect as their movement for that turn was the running down of unit B.

Charging units don't pursue as your " " probably indicate. And yes a Charging unit cannot both run down a fleeing unit and redirect. These two actions are mutually exclusive under 6th edition rules.

mageith
16-07-2006, 21:23
Hi

What about a Unit in combat that flees because of Terror?

Is this the FAQ or a new question?

This occurs at the beginning of the player's turn. So his unit would have won the previous combat either after having been charged or after a protracted combat.

This might rise to the level of springing a bear trap or sinking into quicksand, since it's highly unusual.

It's a judgment call unless you have a FAQ trap ready to spring so I'll sink into quicksand. :)

Mage Ith

DeathlessDraich
17-07-2006, 08:33
Where does this come from? The test is made "as soon as the charge is declared and determined to be in reach". (80) The charger continues his Charge Move (or failed charge) just like normal. We are not yet in the combat phase.
.

Pg 80 "Charged in the side or rear while engaged in combat" followed by "No test is made if the charging unit is unable to reach the target"

The test is made because the unit has been charged in the flank. The sub heading states that and that's how I deduced that (C) moves before (A). If the charge is not made wouldn't the test be invalidated?

It still doesn't make a difference to the sequence of moves I suggested in any case.

We've all agreed that this is not the combat phase.


I don't agree. If Unit A can pursue, it will only happen at the appropriate time (when combat is over) and by then the target unit is long gone.


This is from pg 81 "Panicking in close combat.
The fleeing unit can be pursued if its enemy won the preceding combat"



I think that unit A may pursue if it won the previous round of combat against unit B:


From pg 81 as above.



I'm quite certain that the sequence of moves that SuperBeast suggested and I clarified is correct.




Now gentlemen, what about the redirect variation into the fear causer:

B flees and C redirects into a fear causer and fails the fear test. B is destroyed by A's pursuit.

Since C failed the fear test, it would not move and therefore could not have caused panic which means B would not have to flee and C could not have redirected etc etc. A contradictory loop!

Festus
17-07-2006, 08:57
Hi


All the requirements except the sequence in combat resolution in which pursuit normally occurs, that is.

pg 81 "Panicking in close combat.
The fleeing unit can be pursued if its enemy won the preceding combat"

Bingo!

T10
17-07-2006, 09:12
This is the situation
Q1. Which unit has caught B or do both units simultaneously catch B?


It seems to be an unnecessary distinction.

Any banner will be caught only if the unit fled from combat after (as a result of) being defeated in close combat, so that's not an issue here.

The fleeing unit may cause panic tests for being destroyed by chargers, which seems appropriate in this case regardless of which unit is actually attributed the "kill".

All in all, since we are not talking about a regular Break test, it is best to treat the fleeing unit as a regular fleeing unit and the both enemy units as "chargers".



Q2. What is the correct sequence of moves in this case?


It would seem appropriate to move the chargers first and then move the "pursuing" unit as this fits best with the order of charge declarations.

However, it will probably cause less clutter if one starts with the unit closest to the fleeing unit.

mageith
17-07-2006, 13:33
This is from pg 81 "Panicking in close combat.
The fleeing unit can be pursued if its enemy won the preceding combat"

That's what I was remembering but couldn't find. Thanks.