PDA

View Full Version : Am I the only one disappointed in the new Thousand Sons fluff?



Twisted Ferret
15-07-2006, 17:54
I didn't get a real good look at it, so this may not be right. But it seems to me as if Magnus has been dumbed down, and the Emperor turned almost infallible and wise and so forth. The original version had the Emperor making a mistake and betraying Magnus, but - if I myself am not mistaken - the newer version has Magnus seduced by Chaos originally, not as a response to the Emperor's mistake, and also suggests that the Emperor knew exactly what he was doing all along.

:confused: It kinda ruins it for me. I enjoying seeing Magnus & co as, well, not good by a long shot, but not just mindlessly evil betrayers, either. It seems to me as if Chaos is now responsible for all evil ever, and everyone who sides with it/against the Imperium/Emperor is all evil in every way.

Sephiroth
15-07-2006, 18:25
GW is making the Emperor infailible. Disappointing, isn't it? :skull:

nurgleman
15-07-2006, 18:31
Those dang imperial propragandists.

Brother Othorio
15-07-2006, 20:03
The original version had the Emperor making a mistake and betraying Magnus, but - if I myself am not mistaken - the newer version has Magnus seduced by Chaos originally, not as a response to the Emperor's mistake, and also suggests that the Emperor knew exactly what he was doing all along.

*scratches head* what new version are you referring to?

Wazzahamma
16-07-2006, 05:37
The new version as I understand it, from reading False Gods-

Magnus is not only loyal, he foresees Horus' fall and attempts to save him from turning to chaos. Horus rejects Magnus' help and counsel, turns eveeeeiil anyway. Magnus then tries to warn the Emperor about Horus through sorcery. As before, the Emperor gets the message, ignores the content and is angry at Mags for using forbidden magic. Instead of sending Russ to kill Magnus though, he only sends him to bring Magnus back to Terra for questioning. Horus intercepts Russ en route and convinces him that Magnus is tainted beyond redemption and must be killed instead. Russ believes Horus and goes off on his merry way to betray his one-eyed brother.

So, in this new version, the Emperor is not infallibe as he makes the following mistakes:

a) ignoring the contents of Magnus' warning
b) sent the volatile and untrusting Russ to bring Magnus back. A more diplomatic or nuetral primarch would have been a better choice.

This version does make the Emp more compassionate and balanced towards his sons though. And it also makes Horus even more manipulative and evil (not only does he ensure Magnus' death, but his plan will make sure Russ has his hands full away from terra) than before, and Russ' part a little tragic in that he was fooled by a brother he trusted into attacking one he didn't (when it should have been the other way around).

Chem-Dog
16-07-2006, 06:01
Magnus is not only loyal, he foresees Horus' fall and attempts to save him from turning to chaos. Horus rejects Magnus' help and counsel, turns eveeeeiil anyway. Magnus then tries to warn the Emperor about Horus through sorcery. As before, the Emperor gets the message, ignores the content and is angry at Mags for using forbidden magic. Instead of sending Russ to kill Magnus though, he only sends him to bring Magnus back to Terra for questioning. Horus intercepts Russ en route and convinces him that Magnus is tainted beyond redemption and must be killed instead. Russ believes Horus and goes off on his merry way to betray his one-eyed brother.

In a nutshell, the Emperor is being painted more as an absentee father than infallable demi god thing.

Where I used to think the TS story was pretty stupid it now makes sense and is successful in making a tragic story that is as tragic if not more tragic than the fall of Horus, loyal Magnus was forced into being a traitor by the actions of a loyal Primarch on the strength of what a Traitor had told him.

Wazzahamma
16-07-2006, 06:25
Agreed Chemos-Dog; more logical and far more tragic. Though, I can see how the legend of Magnus and the Emperor that we've known until now, would have come to be believed by the inhabitants of the 41st millenium...an Emperor who was ruthless and reactionary is in keeping with the midset of the imperium. In the same way that our current day retellings of old heroic figures like Achilles and King Arthur are far more liberal and noble than they would have been in their day. No doubt, the 40k imperium would be shocked to know just how compassionate and reasonable (and atheist) he really was before his ascension to the throne.

ryng_sting
17-07-2006, 17:49
I've never had a problem with the Thousand Sons fluff. The whole thing has always pointed up how Tzeentch had Magnus stitched up from the start. Sending him a vision at a convenient time that showed him everyone's fate but his own was part of it - doubtless as was the result the message had on the Emperor's project.

Dr Black Jack
17-07-2006, 18:39
Magnus was forbidden to continue research of ancient knowledge. He continued it in secret. When he had vison of Horus falling, he sent psychic warning to Emperor. Long ago Eldrad Ulthran did the same. EMperor didn't believe. Two messages, two ignoring. One goddamitt big mess.

Emperor, teh fool.

Kjell
17-07-2006, 19:37
Actually, the Emperor was, from his point of view, completely correct in ignoring their messages. Eldrad Ulthran was the most prominent of Eldar seers. Think about that. Eldar. Does anyone think that the Emperor would really trust a member of the species whose empire Humanity was trying to replace? :p

And when it comes to Magnus he used sorcery, not psychics, powerful enough to breach the wards of the Imperial Palace and he did so after being forbidden to practice witchcraft ever again.


We know what happened. The Emperor couldn't have been sure. His Imperium had a lot of enemies, after all. It'd be so like the Eldar to try to spread their own version of the future and Chaos too isn't the most unbiased of sources.

Sephiroth
17-07-2006, 20:16
So, in this new version, the Emperor is not infallibe as he makes the following mistakes:

Granted, maybe not infallible, but he no longer makes any error.

In the old version, Magnus used sorcery to contact and warn him about Horus. Emperor had forbidden the use of sorcery, and saw the action as an attempt by the clearly Chaos-tainted Magnus to cause infighting amongst the newly created Imperium, and so sent Russ and the Space Wolves to destroy the Thousand Sons.

The Emperor made the mistake of not heeding the warning, and condemning Magnus (whom was in the right), thus forcing the Primarch and his Legion into the waiting arms of Chaos.

The new version, the Emperor knows Magnus isn’t corrupted, and that Chaos whispered to Magnus to use his sorcery for the contact, destroying the wards the Emperor had erected.

The Emperor sends Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, as he is to be the power source for the Imperial webway. Horus intercepts Russ en route and convinces him that Magnus is tainted beyond redemption and must be killed instead. Russ believes Horus and goes off on his merry way to destroy his brother-Primarch.

Thus, now its not the Emperor's fault or mistake, it's actually Horus (and Chaos for whispering to both him and Magnus) who betrayed Magnus, Magnus who unwittingly failed the Emperor, and Chaos behind it all.

So while not infallible (didn't forsee Heresy, or stop Horus, etc), the new background makes him 'better' than the old.

Wazzahamma
18-07-2006, 06:55
Granted, maybe not infallible, but he no longer makes any error.

But that's what infallible means- not to err. My point before was that he did err by sending Russ (the wrong man for the right job, quite obviously) and he still ignores the contents of the message. Two big errors on the Emperor's part.

And the new background doesn't just make him "better", it makes him more consistent as a character. I could never fathom why on the one hand, when he gets a hint of one of his sons (Magnus) turning to chaos, he immediately dispatches another legion with custodes in tow to execute the lot without trial or mercy, but when Horus actually falls in no ambiguous manner and attacks Terra, slaughters millions and lives in a ship made of tongues and mucus and blood, The Emperor holds back from even bruising him until the very, very last minute.

Is the Emperor a ruthless and brutal lord, or a strict but understanding father? The revelation that the Emperor simply wanted to see Magnus and question him, is far more in line with the way he reacts to Horus. The pre-heresy Emperor works as this more enlightened and compassionate figure, because it shows us all how this approach failed, and how tragic it is that he came so close to success, but instead had to become a soul-devouring hard-as-nails golden throne bastard post-heresy.

And is this info about the Emperor knowing Magus was loyal, in the latest artbook? I haven't read that yet. I personally prefer the emperor to be unsure about Magnus' loyalty, rather than having made his mind up either way.

Twisted Ferret
18-07-2006, 21:41
In the old version, Magnus used sorcery to contact and warn him about Horus. Emperor had forbidden the use of sorcery, and saw the action as an attempt by the clearly Chaos-tainted Magnus to cause infighting amongst the newly created Imperium, and so sent Russ and the Space Wolves to destroy the Thousand Sons.

The Emperor made the mistake of not heeding the warning, and condemning Magnus (whom was in the right), thus forcing the Primarch and his Legion into the waiting arms of Chaos.

The new version, the Emperor knows Magnus isn’t corrupted, and that Chaos whispered to Magnus to use his sorcery for the contact, destroying the wards the Emperor had erected.

The Emperor sends Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, as he is to be the power source for the Imperial webway. Horus intercepts Russ en route and convinces him that Magnus is tainted beyond redemption and must be killed instead. Russ believes Horus and goes off on his merry way to destroy his brother-Primarch.

Thus, now its not the Emperor's fault or mistake, it's actually Horus (and Chaos for whispering to both him and Magnus) who betrayed Magnus, Magnus who unwittingly failed the Emperor, and Chaos behind it all.

So while not infallible (didn't forsee Heresy, or stop Horus, etc), the new background makes him 'better' than the old.
Exactly. Now the Emperor is a kind and compassionate figure that Magnus really has no reason to be angry at. He didn't betray anyone. The old version makes much more sense to me; now, the Emperor is merely curious at Magnus' use of Chaotic Sorcery? In the brutal world I knew, he wouldn't take so kindly to being disobeyed on such an important matter. Instead of Magnus valiantly trying to save the Emperor and Imperium, we have a bumbling fool who ruined everything (breaching the wards etc.) and a wise father-figure completely willing to forgive him. All hail the kind and nice old man on the pretty throne. :mad:


Where I used to think the TS story was pretty stupid it now makes sense and is successful in making a tragic story that is as tragic if not more tragic than the fall of Horus, loyal Magnus was forced into being a traitor by the actions of a loyal Primarch on the strength of what a Traitor had told him.
Yeah, now everything is Horus' fault. The Emperor is never anything but unfailing kind and moral. He didn't even make the mistake of ignoring the warning, as Wazzahamma suggests - he was merely bringing Magnus back to interrogate him. The only mistake that I can see is that he waited too long, and that's hardly a mistake at all - of course he wouldn't do anything rash on the word of some sorcerer! Not infallible, no, but close enough as to make no difference.

I liked it far more when there were more shades of grey. Instead, as I said, now Chaos is responsible for everything bad, for every mistake.


I could never fathom why on the one hand, when he gets a hint of one of his sons (Magnus) turning to chaos, he immediately dispatches another legion with custodes in tow to execute the lot without trial or mercy, but when Horus actually falls in no ambiguous manner and attacks Terra, slaughters millions and lives in a ship made of tongues and mucus and blood, The Emperor holds back from even bruising him until the very, very last minute.
There are a couple reasons for this. He doesn't just suspect Magnus; he knows that Magnus has been using sorcery, and since - in the Emperor's very fallible and intolerant mind - sorcery = Chaos, he decides that Magnus is the traitor and chooses to make a pre-emptive strike. Don't forget that Magnus told the Emperor that Horus, the Emperor's favorite son, was a traitor... thus cementing the "fact" of Magnus' treachery in the Emperor's mind (for who but a traitor would seek to turn Father against Most Loved, Most Favoured Son?!). He didn't want to believe: either Magnus had been corrupted by Chaos, or Horus was a traitor. The latter would be too painful to bear, so...

Besides this, I always liked to think of Magnus as being the least-loved son, the scapegoat*. The Emperor would be much readier to believe the worst about Magnus the Mutant Sorcerer than Horus, his Best Beloved son.


*Though Konrad might fill this position best.

Gabriel
18-07-2006, 22:25
This is simply what happens when history is written and re-written by the victors. Blaming Horus, Magnus, all the 'corrupt' primarchs for the heresy and whitewashing the Emperor. The Romans did it, the Nazis would have done it had they won, the allies did it after WW1 etc etc.

Wazzahamma
19-07-2006, 01:48
Exactly. Now the Emperor is a kind and compassionate figure that Magnus really has no reason to be angry at. He didn't betray anyone. The old version makes much more sense to me; now, the Emperor is merely curious at Magnus' use of Chaotic Sorcery? In the brutal world I knew, he wouldn't take so kindly to being disobeyed on such an important matter.

Yes, the Emperor is a more compassionate figure (or more consistently compassionate rather than the almost bi-polar random character we had from conflicting pieces of previous fluff), but that still doesn't make him infallible. In faact, it's one of the big things that makes him fallible.

Your point about the brutal world doesn't hold for me, because the entire idea of the pre-heresy Imperium was that it was an age of wisdom, understanding, science and enlightenment. It only became brutal and superstitious after that compassion and wisdom failed (which is the tragedy of the Emperor in a nutshell. Imagine the story of Jesus, but instead of his philosophy triumphing, it fails miserably and he becomes the antithesis of all he stood for). Otherwise, there's really no progression, tragic or otherwise, from pre to post Heresy.

And to add to the tragedy of the situation, Magnus doesn't know that Horus tricked Russ en route. From his point of view, he believes the Emperor did send the Space Wolves to kill him.



Instead of Magnus valiantly trying to save the Emperor and Imperium, we have a bumbling fool who ruined everything (breaching the wards etc.) and a wise father-figure completely willing to forgive him. All hail the kind and nice old man on the pretty throne. :mad:

Not entirely. Magnus is even more valiant in the new version, since he tries to save Horus' soul himself (and his own legion sacrifice many lives in the attempt) first, before warning the Emperor. And I don't see how breaching the wards of the palace with his sorcery makes him any more bumbling than the earlier version where the wards aren't mentioned? It still pisses the Emperor off and causes Russ to head to Prospero in either account. And nobody said that the Emperor was prepared for complete forgiveness (Magnus may have been questioned, or put on trial again, or imprisoned, or punished), just that he's no longer a reactionary idiot.



Yeah, now everything is Horus' fault. The Emperor is never anything but unfailing kind and moral. He didn't even make the mistake of ignoring the warning, as Wazzahamma suggests - he was merely bringing Magnus back to interrogate him.

Sorry, I'm not sure if you've actually read any of the new fluff? The Emperor might be more consistent in his compassion, but he still makes a hell of a lot of mistakes. The new fluff implies that he was a neglectful and arrogant and naive father figure, even if he was well-meaning. This still leads to many problems with the Primarchs and their downfall (such as Lorgar's). He still chose Horus as warmaster (False Gods implies that Sanguinius would have been the wiser choice) and he still ignores the message that Horus is a traitor. Unless there's something in the new artbook that says he paid heed to it?

And if, as you suggest, the Emperor does believe Magnus and knows about the Heresy, that's a nice big mistake right there. The only reason I can see for this, is that the Emperor is so blinded by the love he has for his sons, that it will ultimately be the downfall of the entire golden age.


I liked it far more when there were more shades of grey. Instead, as I said, now Chaos is responsible for everything bad, for every mistake.

Even before though, the Emperor only had the best of intentions (ordering Magnus' death for the good of humanity) while still making mistakes. It's still the same set up, only he's less of a reactionary thug. Something you'd expect of an ancient shaman warrior who is more intelligent and wise than any other human being in existence. And now the story gives the Emperor a true height to fall from, rather than just making him go from mean to meaner. The kind and compassionate nature you hate in him gets shown to be the wrong way to run the Imperium.


There are a couple reasons for this. He doesn't just suspect Magnus; he knows that Magnus has been using sorcery, and since - in the Emperor's very fallible and intolerant mind - sorcery = Chaos, he decides that Magnus is the traitor and chooses to make a pre-emptive strike. Don't forget that Magnus told the Emperor that Horus, the Emperor's favorite son, was a traitor... thus cementing the "fact" of Magnus' treachery in the Emperor's mind (for who but a traitor would seek to turn Father against Most Loved, Most Favoured Son?!). He didn't want to believe: either Magnus had been corrupted by Chaos, or Horus was a traitor. The latter would be too painful to bear, so...

Yes, but even the above logic still relies on some level of assumption on the Emperor's part as to Magnus' guilt. When Horus reveals himself as a traitor, there's no room for debate. Besides the massacre of millions and the siege of Terra, he murders Sanguinius. The Emperor still holds out on killing Horus till the very last second. The two approaches for the one man don't work, unless the Emperor is nuts. Which might be true.



Besides this, I always liked to think of Magnus as being the least-loved son, the scapegoat*. The Emperor would be much readier to believe the worst about Magnus the Mutant Sorcerer than Horus, his Best Beloved son.

I'm not convinced by this. I think that previous fluff has shown that, if not the most favoured, Magnus was one of the favourite Primarchs. He and The Emperor already had a psychic bond well in advance of when they met face to face, the Emperor took Magnus with him on important duties (like the finding of Lorgar) and they conversed on all sorts of matters intellectual. And Magnus is honestly hurt by the Emperor's rejection. The least loved would seem to be (as you suggested) either Konrad (who the Emperor was still very kind towards on first contact) or Angron. Even Perturabo.

So, for the Emperor to give one son, even the most favoured, so much rope (even letting Horus rip out his eye and one arm!) after undeniable betrayal, and yet act in such a ruthless and thoughtless manner towards another after a possible/probable instance of betrayal is inconsistent and downright silly. I'd rather take an Emperor who's compassion and morals lead to disaster than one who was shortsightedly stupid and wildly random.

Hmmm....or would I?;)

paddyalexander
19-07-2006, 03:30
One thing, the pre-hersay Imperium wasn't the golden age. The golden age happened long before the Emperor set out to reconqure the galaxy for humanity. While some were freed from enslavement by aliens or Chaos, many of the worlds of the Imperium where conqered and forced into Imperial rule by armies of Space Marines or Imperial Guard.
Thats why when Horus rebelled many worlds either supported him or just overtrew their Imperial minders and went back to being independent.

Wazzahamma
19-07-2006, 04:04
I see your point, but it was an age of rediscovery of old technology and a certain amount of benevelont dictatorship from the Imperium. In contrast to post-heresy, it was a shining time.

paddyalexander
19-07-2006, 04:25
I suppose thats true. The alien was seen as the main threat to mankind, not Chaos. It was a time of expansion and a lot of STC technology was being recovered on many of the reconqered worlds. The strict enforcement of anti-mutation, anti-chaos cult & anti-psyker laws didn't come about untill after the hersay with the foundation of the Inquisition.

For most worlds the experience of being in the Imperium was:

Space Marines land, conqure world.

Subjected world told they are now part of the Imperium and 10,000 men must be drafted into the Imperial Guard to fight on behalf of the Emperor whoose army just devestated their soceity.

Puppet government is installed an exports large amounts of the worlds crops to support the armies and an aditional 5,000 men a year.

After a number of years they get handed the opertunity to rebel against the Emperor only now a lot of the people from the world are hardened veterans from fighting in the crusade.

Twisted Ferret
19-07-2006, 05:41
Your point about the brutal world doesn't hold for me, because the entire idea of the pre-heresy Imperium was that it was an age of wisdom, understanding, science and enlightenment.
I've never heard that. The "Golden Years" of humanity were apparently far earlier.


And to add to the tragedy of the situation, Magnus doesn't know that Horus tricked Russ en route. From his point of view, he believes the Emperor did send the Space Wolves to kill him.
And so the Emperor is blameless, Magnus is foolish, and Chaos is the source of all that is bad.


And I don't see how breaching the wards of the palace with his sorcery makes him any more bumbling than the earlier version where the wards aren't mentioned? It still pisses the Emperor off and causes Russ to head to Prospero in either account.
The difference is that in the earlier version, Magnus' attempt to warn the Emperor could've actually been useful. In this version, it just messes things up.


Sorry, I'm not sure if you've actually read any of the new fluff?
I mentioned in my first post that I hadn't, I think. This is all based on summaries I've read.


Unless there's something in the new artbook that says he paid heed to it?
I've read on the forums that it was insinuated that the Emperor was not so blind in this regard as he might appear, but having not read any myself I'm not sure.


Even before though, the Emperor only had the best of intentions (ordering Magnus' death for the good of humanity) while still making mistakes. It's still the same set up, only he's less of a reactionary thug. Something you'd expect of an ancient shaman warrior who is more intelligent and wise than any other human being in existence. And now the story gives the Emperor a true height to fall from, rather than just making him go from mean to meaner. The kind and compassionate nature you hate in him gets shown to be the wrong way to run the Imperium.
It's different in that it doesn't give Magnus a legitimate grievance. And where does the Emperor get meaner? It's been my impression that all policy decisions are decided by others on Terra, not the Emperor (now that he's on the Goldren Throne, that is).


Yes, but even the above logic still relies on some level of assumption on the Emperor's part as to Magnus' guilt. When Horus reveals himself as a traitor, there's no room for debate. Besides the massacre of millions and the siege of Terra, he murders Sanguinius. The Emperor still holds out on killing Horus till the very last second. The two approaches for the one man don't work, unless the Emperor is nuts. Which might be true.
They work if Horus is his "real", most-loved son, and Magnus some mutant sorcerer... :P


I'm not convinced by this. I think that previous fluff has shown that, if not the most favoured, Magnus was one of the favourite Primarchs.
Well, they had a great falling-out when arguing about sorcery and psykery and so-forth.


So, for the Emperor to give one son, even the most favoured, so much rope (even letting Horus rip out his eye and one arm!) after undeniable betrayal, and yet act in such a ruthless and thoughtless manner towards another after a possible/probable instance of betrayal is inconsistent and downright silly.
I'm pretty sure there was no doubt in the Emperor's mind; I doubt the hesitation was entirely planned and voluntary. Ordering a son's death and then actually killing your favorite with your own hands (well, weapon) are two different things.

Wazzahamma
19-07-2006, 08:19
I've never heard that. The "Golden Years" of humanity were apparently far earlier.

In Horus Rising and False Gods, the Great Crusade is painted as a time of science, reason and humanity. Whether we call it a golden age or not, is a matter of personal definition.



And so the Emperor is blameless, Magnus is foolish, and Chaos is the source of all that is bad.

I still don't see how Magnus is any more a fool than previously. From what I can tell, he was at least as aware (maybe moreso) than the Emperor himself. Besides, Magnus has always been the fool- he who believed he could master the unmasterable and was deceived by chaos.

I don't see why we're hung up on blaming the Emperor for this so much....the tragedy is still there, and with the Emperor "blameless" the tragedy is increased ten fold. Personal preference, I suppose. I also believe that the Emperor is to blame in the way that he was neglectful and ignorant.

And chaos isn't the source of all that is bad- human weakness is. Chaos just exploits that. And that weakness is present in all the Primarchs and the Emperor.


The difference is that in the earlier version, Magnus' attempt to warn the Emperor could've actually been useful. In this version, it just messes things up.

I can't really comment on this, since it appears you've read different accounts to the one I have. As far as I can discern from F.G, the differences in Magnus' warning is non-existant. There could be extra details in the latest artbook I'm not aware of...


I mentioned in my first post that I hadn't, I think. This is all based on summaries I've read.

Sorry, I didn't realise you were the thread starter- from your one-sided attack, I assumed such confident critique came from reading the new fluff first-hand. No wonder you prefer the reactionary Emperor! ;)


I've read on the forums that it was insinuated that the Emperor was not so blind in this regard as he might appear, but having not read any myself I'm not sure.

Well, now that you've put it forward, neither am I. Could anyone clear this up for us?



It's different in that it doesn't give Magnus a legitimate grievance. And where does the Emperor get meaner? It's been my impression that all policy decisions are decided by others on Terra, not the Emperor (now that he's on the Goldren Throne, that is).

Well, that's the Greek tragedy in the making- there was no true legitimate reason. 3 innocent parties (Magnus, Russ and The Emperor) were played into betraying one another. It depends on what you prefer as a story, really. I'm partial to tragic tales.

And a lot of the sem-conscious decisions the Emp made on the throne before falling silent seemed to be quite harsh and brutal to me (I'll start eating the souls of thousands of psykers for breakfast, please). And even if he isn't responsible for the darker, superstitious nature of the Imperium after his 'ascension', then that still means his "way" failed utterly and completely and his role as a figurehead to a society he would despise, is a disgusting shame and irony.


They work if Horus is his "real", most-loved son, and Magnus some mutant sorcerer... :P
Well, they had a great falling-out when arguing about sorcery and psykery and so-forth.

Yes, but its never been hinted at that the Emperor was in any way turned off by Magnus' mutation. And even though he and Magnus might have had a falling out, it was talked over. The Emperor and Horus had a physical falling-out and he still held back because he thought Horus could be saved!



I'm pretty sure there was no doubt in the Emperor's mind; I doubt the hesitation was entirely planned and voluntary. Ordering a son's death and then actually killing your favorite with your own hands (well, weapon) are two different things.

Sorry, not quite sure what you mean here. Do you mean the hesitiation to kill Horus was planned? In the old story, he couldn't bring himself to kill him, because he still believed he could be saved, not through any plan. In any case, if he's the sort of Emperor/warrior who can order others to kill his kids, but not do it with his own two hands, then he's unfathomably spineless. A quality unfitting of a character that united earth and then the galaxy on the front lines.

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 09:29
"Son, what have I told you about playing with Magic? - now look what you hae done you have broken all my special psychic wards ive placed around the home"

"well sorry dad but I think Horus is in..."

"tut, come here and tell me - No magic, im busy"

"but dad, seriously I think Ho..."

"No, come home at once!"

"No I wont, im a big grown up Primarch now with my own Legion and I will not come home untill you listen to me!"

"Very well, Ill send Russ over to yours to bring you back"

"Grumble..."

Works for me.

Wazzahamma
20-07-2006, 10:45
Hahahaha. If that really is the state of the new fluff, then I can see Ferret's problem! Is that from the art books?

Lord Dante
20-07-2006, 11:09
Thankfully not! - I was just taking the wee

Eulenspiegel
20-07-2006, 12:46
I´ve read both Heresy books but that change in the Emperor´s intention didn´t occur to me, well done guys.

After reading the thread I have to say Wazz´s version makes a lot more sense to me, sorry Ferret. It fits the entire way stories and legends of the 40K universe are being made more intricate and sinister, not flat out what they seem at first glance.

Autobot HQ
20-07-2006, 13:11
See, I like LordDantes version loads better. Makes sense far as I'm concerned.

charlie_c67
20-07-2006, 14:14
Hang on, we're comparing fluff from art books, which some have said is more than a little questionable, against fluff from books which have the basis that they're expanding the history of the heresy and explaining things that people always wondered about? Know where my money'd would be.

Sureshot05
20-07-2006, 15:32
For those who have read the text, remember that Magnus was being brought back to be interrogated. Now, this all depends on your point of view, but I don't see any primarch being dragged halfway across the galaxy, forced to undergo interrogation before his father without a clear cut verdict in sight very forgiving of the Emperor. It is more forgiving than the original fluff, but this fits more with the Emperor's character, but its not a forgive all that some may have interpretted it as.

Zzarchov
20-07-2006, 17:13
The thing is, its now a traditional tragedy, but it cheapens the background.

It is the last nail in the coffin from "Chaos = Chaotic VS Imperium = Orderly" to "Chaos = Evil VS Imperium = Angelic good with cinnamon smelling farts"

Before it made sense, Yes the Emporer sent people to kill Magnus, why? He was breaking the very binds of the Order of this new Imperium (ie, obeying the emporer), a clear danger to stability with his meddling in the raw forces of chaos. The Emporer represented Law and Order not Good and compassionate. And Chaos wasn't all evil, they gave Magnus refuge, as long as he was willing to live in total anarchy. Until the Daemons actually appeared when Horus attacked earth he was actually better, because while he wanted to oust the Emporer he merely wanted to replace him, and keep the orderly Imperium in place, merely with him in charge. A case of redeemable ambition not outright heresy.

Thats why Chaos was called Chaos and not "Daemonrealm" or some other stupid crap when they founded the game universes. It was to get away from subjective "Good VS Evil" and toward "Chaos VS Order"

Wazzahamma
21-07-2006, 01:40
I don't think the Emperor is now "good" in the way we might see the term today. He's just not reactionary and doesn't jumped the gun. He may well have executed Magnus after interrogation or imprisoned him. The Emperor still demanded that worlds be conquered by force and that xenos be exterminated. He's a little more considered, and perhaps more compassionate, but neither trait is excluded from characters who are "evil".

And I don't know if chaos if any more 'evil' than before. Can people give examples?