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Okuto
15-07-2006, 19:36
Actually I was just wondering, can there be such a thing, I mean, cause some planets have been left on their own and many seperatist human empires have grown (including mine) and I've been wondering.....would a such thing as a non-imperial commissar exist, just a sort of general one.....

nurgleman
15-07-2006, 20:02
yes, but the commisar could not have been a commisar in the imperium beforehand, because they are supposed to keep their troops in line.

Mother_Mercy
16-07-2006, 10:59
Of course there can be non-Imperial Commissars. They might even be logically be called "Commissars". But in most likelyhood they won't be the pious, leading-from-the-front characters you find in Imperial regiments.

For example, the original Commissars were the political officers attached to all Soviet forces. They had no military education, no battle experiance, nothing, and existed only as a check on the traditionally reactionary military officers. This "double command" was disastrous for the Soviet chain of command, and the Commissars were loathed because they put ideology before efficiency.

If you're only looking for a reason to put Commissars within your non-Imperial army on the table top, you'll have to explain why they are the same efficient, battle-hardened leaders that their Imperial equivalents are.

SuperBeast
16-07-2006, 11:08
Commisars are the front line of the Imperial Creed.
So yes, you can get non-Imperial commissars. In the same way you can have Islamic Fundamentalist Catholics...

If by "Commisar" you mean someone who maintains morale/belief/purpose amongst troops with the use of a firearm, then yes, there's no reason why you wouldn't get similar examples in other armies/break away human factions.

But, if by "Commisar" you mean Ciaphas Kain, Gaunt, Yarrick and all their kind, then no. By definition, a Commisar of their ilk is a living, breathing embodiment of Imperial politic and theology.

Okuto
16-07-2006, 12:00
hmmm...I see

Allow to give you a brief overview on my fluff.

Pretty much a group of various regiments took over a planet during the Damo. crusade(the one against the Tau) and it was the Cadians that decided to stay on the surface to train the new army. But after awhile, the locals loathed the "oppressive" imperium and with the help of the Tau brought their conquerors to their knees. But remembering what the Cadians had done for them over the years, the locals spared the Cadians and proposed a new government.

Course the Cadians accept but lock themselves up in orbital stations and watch carefully for a flaw in the new government. Then they do and host a small little rebellion to prove the weakness of the government and in turn reintroduce the commissar to the local armed forces and slowly they accept.


Actually I never realized that the Soviet Commissars had no battlefield experience, I always thought they knew a bit......

Course my commissars aren't going to be gaunts, their going to be the guys yelling my boys to stop being pansies and move foward bursting off the odd bolt sheel or too.

Mother_Mercy
16-07-2006, 14:04
But if the Cadians stage a revolt against the pro-Tau government, shouldn't they re-introduce an Imperial government? Thus the Commissars should be Imperial Commissars, preaching the Imperial Creed and service to the Emperor.

Okuto
16-07-2006, 14:35
It's not a revolt, maybe a coup or rather a takeover, just trying to muscle in some changes.

Think about it...

If you were charged for training and governing a new planet in the name of the emperor, then they turn on you with Tau backing, destroying your armies but allowing you a place in the reformed government(course not a powerful position).

Then as you have been left on your own workings, knowing that you lack the military might to crush your former coloney, you notice that the government is overtime, being made up of overly ambitious younger senators and such, eager to claim worlds.

So.....what is a good thing to do, fund a hidden rebellion and show the weakness in the government, then simply "propose" that a commissar will prove to be a good tool in the armed forces. Of course they don't like it but the "warhawks" section of the government thinks otherwise, remembering that everything they know of war was thought by your's truely.

It is mainly a political move to gain a bit more power in an overwise stubborn government.

My army's government hates imperial government, why would they ever accept a reproposal of it, that's why they rebelled in the first place.

Mother_Mercy
16-07-2006, 20:56
Seems like you have a power balance here; A pro-Imperial army and a "republican" senate (that owns its place to the army in the first place). So which ideology do the Commissars enforce?

Outlaw289
16-07-2006, 23:56
Okuto, your fluff is...unlikely, to say the least.

If the Tau brought the Cadian gov't to its knees, why isn't there an Ethereal Caste government instead?

Why would they allow Imperial Commissars back into the Army, which is a ,if I get this right, a human, Tau-Supported, Anti-Imperial Separatist Army?

I mean, if you wanted to say they were a Tau Gue'vesa Army and use Commissar units like Human messengers of the Greater Good, go ahead. You can work Commissars into any ideology really (or at least the non-pacifist ones), but they wouldn't be Imperial Commissars

Okuto
17-07-2006, 11:48
doesn't make sense?, I'm trying to make sense so I can have an excuse to field a commissar. Course the old regime doesn't call them commissars, rather "morale officers"

I never said they were "imperial" commisars, the point of the matter is that I'm trying to figure out how'd I'd include a "general" commissar in a rather diplomatic society.

Plus Tau often leave foriegn government alone to itself. Course they have some other caste members hanging around but the Tau don't often take it upon themselves to govern allied planets, they simply expect you to assist them when needed and that's really all.

The commissars within my fluff simply advise officers on tactics and raise their morale as well as reintroducing "imperial" thinking a bit here and there if at all possible, my officers don't fear them so I can assume that they are filled with a air of pride, shooting people is only a last resort, the water caste doesn't like it, I'd like to asume that the commissar "takes" them off the field or just plain shoots them, but that wouldn't make sense in my fluff.....

quite hard to fit a commissar in.....

Mother_Mercy
17-07-2006, 12:13
The role of a Commissar is to uphold morale and proper ideological devotion among the troops, as well as enforcing the will of the government in military matters. In the Red Army this meant all decisions had to be made by both the Commissar and the commanding officer, in the Imperial Guard it means the Commissar assumes command if the officer steps out of line.

A Commissar is the government's enforcer within the army. A Commissar that is loyal towards the army first and the government second is not a Commissar, but rather a Judge Dredd-style Military Police officer.

If the army is pro-Imperial and the government is pro-Tau, it would make sense for the government to place political officers within the army. But if so, they would be preaching the Greater Good, not trying to re-introduce the Imperial Creed.

Chem-Dog
17-07-2006, 12:26
Well, if you want to know if you can put a Commissar in your army, the answer is yes, no need for political jiggery-pokery, just have him as some sort of enforcer for the existing government.

In Necropolis Verunhive had it's own Commissars, local government rather than Imperial (although the planet is under Imperial rule, so it's a small distinction) it's entirely possible that other Commissar style ranks would occur in other governments.
Particularly unpleasant Tau Fire Warrior might be suitable, but a human would be cool, we are a race that tends to fanatacism.

Okuto
17-07-2006, 12:33
The thing is.....my army's government still is a bit hesitate to believe in this "greater good" nonsense, trade is our game, the planet's wealthy, very...but that in turn breeds a bit of corruption and lack of duty upon the noblity, also leads to various politcal brickering, the army needs some "political animals" to speak for them.

hehe.....Nercopolis was a great book, I love the part where Kowle caps all the tank crews....is was just kinda cool....

Ok well, so a proper commissar backs the army first, but what if the army's command is made of reckless sons of noblity, who's fathers hold office and fund the army with the planet's wealth?

Mother_Mercy
17-07-2006, 13:14
Ok well, so a proper commissar backs the army first...
Nonono, other way around. A proper Commissar backs the *government* first. That's the thing. Without a strong ideology guiding the government, you have no need for political officers enforcing that ideology upon the army.

Autobot HQ
17-07-2006, 13:52
I always have this thing myself were if you have to seriously start to find more and more ways to get a troop choice to fit your fluff idea, then just don't include the damn unit because it dillutes what you intended.

Khaine's Messenger
17-07-2006, 17:41
I'm trying to make sense so I can have an excuse to field a commissar.

Well I suppose you've got to ask yourself: why do you want to field Commissars? That extra hidden powerfist? Or just because you want to be able to rationalize every unit in the armylist in a different paradigm?


I'm trying to figure out how'd I'd include a "general" commissar in a rather diplomatic society.

The best way to do it would be to field one of the special character Commissars as your normal Commissar, because they make units fearless rather than require execution. Mind, you don't have to even call them Yarrick and Gaunt...just use their rules. It's a bit free-form and not quite kosher, but eh.

Thing is, though, that you could always fudge the rules to suggest what you want. Say, call it "orders from the top" or "command override" rather than "field execution," and just incapacitate the officer (bound, shocked, tranq'd, etc.) rather than kill him...it could even be amusing modelling one of the troopers carrying his dozing superior while the Commissar leads the spearhead. It'd only make a difference in campaign play, where tallying up who really died is an issue. In a pick-up game, it's not going to matter all that much.

Okuto
17-07-2006, 19:00
hidden power fist, no sorry, I just like commissars so much.....

I didn't mean a "general general" one, I meant a generic one...

My army being seperatists does limit me a bit but I'm trying to rationalize every troop choice I field, I have yet to field a commissar, it's just that I've just about lost every single game I've played since the campaign started...