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gunhed
17-07-2006, 16:54
So how come then, the regular Imperial Marines who quite seriously hold to the belief of each suit having its own soul/spirit don't start questioning this philosophy when they see the 13th Company who've been using an eclectic mixture of Imperial and Chaos armour for over 10,000 years without any noticable problems.

Khaine's Messenger
17-07-2006, 17:05
You can make whatever alterations you like to your armor so long as you can appease its war spirit. Obviously, they've convinced their armors' war spirits that their changes are okay. Of course, most loyalists would probably look on the 13th Co. in disgust anyway. :p

I mean honestly, why doubt the power of doublethink? ;)

gunhed
17-07-2006, 17:18
Obviously, they've convinced their armors' war spirits that their changes are okay.

Yeah, I guess they do have to look harder for loopholes, but still...Chaos? How long to go before some 13th company turn up wearing Xeno bits and pieces?

LarryS
17-07-2006, 17:24
The bits of armor were probably "purified" in some way. I believe it was written that Ragnar carries a weapon that was taken from a chaos champion and reforged.

(was it Ragnar or another SW character? It's been a while...)

ryng_sting
17-07-2006, 17:35
You're thinking of Logan Grimnar, though he wasn't the SM to do so.

Minister
17-07-2006, 17:39
Logan and Calgar both. However, the 13th wear unconsecrated components, hence their armour is obviously tainted. Such armour would only serve one who is tainted, willingly or not. Therefore, the armour serves as further evidence fo their damnation.

damz451
17-07-2006, 17:43
the gauntlets of ultramar are chaos weapons too, the relictors chapter use chaos demon weapons as well.

Minister
17-07-2006, 22:20
The Gauntlets were taken as a trophy from a champion of Khorne, they are almost certainly DAoT in origin, and have since been dedecated to the Emperor.

Crazy Tom
18-07-2006, 08:53
Gregor Eisenhorn uses Chaos-aspected weapons - his runestaff and Cherubael - to fight Chaos. But then again he is hounded by the bastions of law and order.

Anways, the whole 'spirit' thing is just techno-mumbo-jumbo taught to the SMs by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who themselves do it to hide the fact they're worsphipping the Void Dragon, which is responsible for their technological advancement.

So, unless the armour is wildly more advanced than we give credit for, and in fact contains some sort of distributed AI network (its 'spirit' which would allow for compatibility issues and would suffer from damage and misuse) we have to assume there's no problem adding different bits to the armour.

After all, it's just a suit... isn't it...?

gunhed
18-07-2006, 11:57
the relictors chapter use chaos demon weapons as well.

The word here is Demon. They don't even pretend it's not what it is, which is why their either about to be excommunicated or in fact already have been (not really sure on this one...any clues anyone?).

However, the 13th just wear unconsecrated armour, thereby IMO, diluting the spirit of their own armour to such a degree that over the last 10,000 years, it must have become purely soulless, yet it still works.

Surely this must make an Imperial Marine who's spent the last 12 hours consecrating and praying to his armours' spirit to make sure it works right in battle wonder if he's being conned by someone.

And if armour can work without a soul/spirit, what next...bolters, auspex, vehicles? The list becomes endless. The whole Ad Mech could collapse if they don't stamp on this one, and stamp fast.

Kage2020
18-07-2006, 15:31
So how come then, the regular Imperial Marines who quite seriously hold to the belief of each suit having its own soul/spirit...
The Imperium as a whole - one of the few generalised rules of the 40k universe - seems to have adopted some of the animistic beliefs of the adeptus mechanicus. This means that they believe that a machine is (or may be) motivated by the Will of the Machine God and, perhaps, even contain a fragment of the divine spark. This, of course, doesn't make it a fact...

Kage

gunhed
18-07-2006, 17:08
Yeah, I know that, it's just that the Aztec priests (and please guys, no history lessons, it's just an example)told everyone that they'd better offer up one of their number for sacrifice, else the sun wont come up tomorrow, and whilst you're at it, we'll have that gold and any spare food as well. The first day they missed a sacrifice and the sun still came up, they were on pretty dodgy ground.

My point here is that if a marine who does as he's told and prays to his armour every night sees the 13th Co. running around in their unconsecrated armour yet still winning, it could cast a serious shadow on the whole Machine Spirit thing.

Questions could be asked and maybe the odd prayer could be missed out, just to see what happens. And when nothing bad does happen, then what next for the Ad Mech? I guess I'm talking about the 13th Co, bringing just a little doubt into their world.

Crazy Tom
18-07-2006, 18:03
The Adeptus Mechanicum will probably collapse if the Void Dragon wakes up - their worship of it will probably cause a huge civil war in the Imperium. Although who knows? If more emphasis is put on researching new technology and existing machines no longer need extensive hours, the Imperium could be a lot better off. But of course they'll be sorely missing the vast resources of the AM.

Kage2020
18-07-2006, 18:35
Assumption there, of course, is that the Dragon is the Machine God. While it's a poor enough storyline to find its way into a BL novel and GW canon, many fans would find it problematic to make such a sweeping assumption.

Kage

Crazy Tom
18-07-2006, 22:18
But it makes so much sense! :(

No, granted, I know it's all fan speculation. But it would be ironic if the biggest threat to the Imperium turns out to be sitting right underneath its main powerbase. Hopefully it'll never wake up, anyhow. Only if someone does something stupid like trying to wake it. *ignores Nightbringer*

Kage2020
18-07-2006, 22:54
You don't need the C'tan to make that jump, though.

Kage

Tanith Ghost
18-07-2006, 23:13
Yeah, I know that, it's just that the Aztec priests (and please guys, no history lessons, it's just an example)told everyone that they'd better offer up one of their number for sacrifice, else the sun wont come up tomorrow, and whilst you're at it, we'll have that gold and any spare food as well. The first day they missed a sacrifice and the sun still came up, they were on pretty dodgy ground.

My point here is that if a marine who does as he's told and prays to his armour every night sees the 13th Co. running around in their unconsecrated armour yet still winning, it could cast a serious shadow on the whole Machine Spirit thing.

Questions could be asked and maybe the odd prayer could be missed out, just to see what happens. And when nothing bad does happen, then what next for the Ad Mech? I guess I'm talking about the 13th Co, bringing just a little doubt into their world.

And how do you know the 13th company doesn't purify and consecrate the armor they take from fallen foes?

Their so called 'taint' is in fact proof of their purity. The canis helix that makes the wulfenkind what they are sheilds them from the eye's effects.
By the same token, when armor is consecrated, the armor spirit accepts it, as it will permit the armor to go into battle more.

A note to the naysayers on the machine spirits- they are real. That's not just superstition.

EarthScorpion
19-07-2006, 08:45
There are some Machine Spirits; mainly a thesitic way of getting around the prohibitations on AI ("What? No, that isn't a blasthemous AI! It is a holy sign of the favour of the Machine God! No, the fact that it is using that chipset designed to manage the systems is purely a sign of its holyness"... and so on). I refuse to accept that every piece of technology in the Imperium has a Machine Spirit in the sense that the AdMech propogates, mainly due to the fact that it is superfluous.

Kegluneq
19-07-2006, 09:34
I always assumed machine spirits (where they exist) to be basically an organic component of the machine - a genetically engineered intelligence, only low level AI but enough to monitor systems and occasionally take control.

Kymar
19-07-2006, 13:20
Funny how everyone argues that machine spirits are mechanical AI, but we accept the concept of the Warp & Psionics.

In the 40k world, if the warp & deamons can exist, so can machine spirits. Its a world where superstition is real and science is just a half forgotten memory.

PS-If it were not for the Admechanic's rituals, the great DAoT achievements would be lost. They have forgotten how things work, but they can copy & repair for eternity.
PPS- The Aztec never did forget a sacrifice, because just like the Admechanics, the Aztec priest truely did believe in the idea's they preached. Too bad their civilization fell regardless. *shrug*

Kage2020
19-07-2006, 21:20
Right, some possibilities for the Machine Spirit since I cannot search on this forum to give you a more developed response:


Animism: The 'machine spirit' is nothing more than a manifestation of animistic beliefs, i.e. the Cult attributes all machines as being animated by a spirit, the consciousness or will of the Machine God, etc.
Expert System: The belief of "intelligence" is given by complex programming over a limited area or "skill base".
Artificially Intelligent (AI) or Pseudo-Intelligent (PI) System: As with the Expert System, though over a broader range of skills/knowledge. (The "computer" from Star Trek: The Next Generation's "Enterprise" would be a limited example of this.
Machine Intelligence (MI): A true intelligent machine that, since it is conscious, either has or is attributed (cf. animism, above) a 'spirit' as a result.
Supernatural: The 'machine spirit' refers to a supernatural (warp) entity that essentially possesses a machine. "Gremlins" are or can be argued to be a reflection of this.


Of course, none of the above are mutually exclusive of any of the others.

Kage

BrainFireBob
20-07-2006, 06:09
Also:

Cybernetic cores/mapped-copied neural pathways as a basis for a primitive machine intelligence- like they do with Titans- where they use an animal's (normally a predator like a wolf) neural patterns as a basis for the Titan's machine spirit.

ADDITION: In some senses, "appeasing" the Machine Spirit- such as a marine and its power armor, and the religious "rituals" that appease it- is running maintenance. ie, the machine spirit in part is how they understand being in good repair vs. poor- since something can have the snot knocked out of it, but have started as a sufficiently fine example of its type it still works. How? Its SPIRIT, see? Wants it more.

Kage2020
20-07-2006, 21:29
...Which is another variation of the AI/PI, just with a different conceptual premise.

Kage

gunhed
22-07-2006, 09:23
And how do you know the 13th company doesn't purify and consecrate the armor they take from fallen foes?

Ooo, good point. That'd not occured to me. I guess their Chaplains would do a bit more than just keep the wulfen in check.

So, new question then; would the original armour's spirit happily accept the old reconsecrated chaos bits and work perfectly well or would there be the machine spirit equivelent of "an awkward moment":a bit like a particularly unpleasent blind date, where neither one gels with the other and they can't wait for it to be over?

It would either work, which would show that chaos bits can be reconsecrated or it wouldn't, in which case, they wouldn't be used. And as they are being used, this would show (to me at least) that either a) the machine spirit isn't that fussy about what you stick onto it, b) there is no machine spirit.

Neither option IMO bodes well for the AM.

Crazy Tom
22-07-2006, 21:09
The reconsecration could be like formatting a floppy disk that's been used for a mac and then using it for windows files - you'd have to format it to get rid of the old shreds of code that would hang around. So the consecration would wipe the armour of whatever code it was carrying. Otherwise, the armour could suffer from compatibility issues - like trying to run Linux software on Win XP - it just doesn't work.

Kage2020
22-07-2006, 21:21
This is where "magic" couples with "science" to become "sci-fantasy". The only real problem is that 40k isn't doing either that well at the moment.

Kage

Tanith Ghost
23-07-2006, 05:01
It would either work, which would show that chaos bits can be reconsecrated or it wouldn't, in which case, they wouldn't be used. And as they are being used, this would show (to me at least) that either a) the machibe spirit isn't that fussy about what you stick onto it, b) there is no machine spirit.

Neither option IMO bodes well for the AM.

Given how Titans work, I lean toward option a. Machine spirits love their job-
in the case of power armor, defying the weapons of the enemy. The more enemy fire that fails to damage the armor, and the more maintenence the armor gets for damage it does take, the happier it will be.
Much as a bolter will be happy shooting things, and a chainsword is happiest chopping heretics into dead heretics.

Krusk
23-07-2006, 05:31
I doubt that much is actually left of the 13th companies original armor anyway. If in fact, machine spirits can get pissy over chaos parts, they will have gotten over it by now.

Kymar
24-07-2006, 13:07
A bit off the topic, but I'm strangely reminded of the Futurama episode where all the robots rovolt. The toaster, the TV and even a little electronic gift card all stand up and start beating up all the people. It doesn't make sense that everything has a machine spirit, but it does make it awfully funny. :p

the dark angel
24-07-2006, 18:41
well i suppose chaos power armour suits where once holy and had a spirit mabey they think that if it is worn by a holy anoth person (an imperial marine) it would become holy again,and that a suit only has a spirit if it has one of every piece of armour but not from the same set as all the armour is holy

thats what i think ill look in to it more

Kage2020
24-07-2006, 22:35
Yes, but would it be the same as the salvation of the individual? Kin spirits, etc., etc. ;)

Kage

the dark angel
25-07-2006, 14:23
you got me there...probably not another point i came up with is the black carapce part of the armour?if so wouldnt that keep the individual holy and from taint of the chaos armour as i belive chaos armour has a spirit,a tormented one,an evil entity,but if you where to place a piece of chaos armour on top of carapace that may be part of the armour,if not it would have been blessed i think,wouldnt holyness over power evilness as a result making the armour holy?just a thought any 1 have evidence to back it up or against it,i will search the SM book and gw site (again)for more info

Minister
25-07-2006, 17:22
Theblack carapace it one of the implants, and as such a part of the Marine rather than the armour.

Generally, a tainted component will override purity. Think of it as a tin of white paint which has black added, no matter how much you dilute the black, th esum total is still slightly grey.

the dark angel
25-07-2006, 18:14
true but i can only come up with this:loyalist marines must be to holy or pure so they can resist the temptations of the dark gods right cause before the heresy marines where whisperd to my the gods and a lot of the legions resisted so is it in there geneseed?

Melchiah
25-07-2006, 18:32
Just a question to the choas power armour Vs the loyalist power armour.
In the case of the 13th company; does it state in the EoT that their armour is half and half, or is more one then the other? I would think that If it was more Loyalist then Choatic then the "machine spirit" would just over power the "choas spirit." And Vise virsa for rogue tratiors and renagdes. My exmaple is that enough flashlights and purge the darkness were as someone with just 1 flashlight gets lost.
Ya i know its basic but least we can all follow....unlike the fluf we all arguee over:p

gunhed
26-07-2006, 16:36
I would think that If it was more Loyalist then Choatic then the "machine spirit" would just over power the "choas spirit." And Vise virsa for rogue tratiors and renagdes.

Which would show that the Chaos stuff can be reconsecrated and used without tainting the soul of the armour, which should in theory would make the Radical =][= sort of "right after all".

Chaos can be used to fight Chaos.

MrLiy
26-07-2006, 18:54
Well according to the imperium all machines have spirits. Even such mundane things as water pumps in BL novels. So Ai is not necessary for a machine to have spirit. Even an M16 found many years into the future would have a machine spirit since its mechanical predictable movements that need constant maintnance or worship would be evidence of the existance of the spirit to human in 40k.

I'm sure techpriests are delusional and quick witted enough to come up with another explanation. Such as 1. The wulfen have the blessing of the machine spirit for their bravery in the EoT. or 2. The wulfen are EVIL!!! and their armor is inhabited by demons.

t-tauri
26-07-2006, 19:16
With the 13th Company presumably the company Iron Priests have worked out ways to purge any chaos spirits and imbue them with the "acceptable" AM approved Imperial Machine Spirit. I'm a little confused as to why the Eavy Metal team painted them with untouched pieces of chaos armour. Surely someone in the 13th could have found a can of chaos black spray?

Captain Loken
26-07-2006, 19:21
yea i dont think any loyalists like the 13th company anyway:)

Melchiah
26-07-2006, 20:41
Funny how everyone argues that machine spirits are mechanical AI, but we accept the concept of the Warp & Psionics.

Its cuz general "mystic-ism" has been thought to be around since the asain cultures thought of thr body's "chi" and is still thought in the way the body would as in with some marital arts.
Now say any machnie with a "chi" is only reletivly new idea and is easier to disregard then something thats been around for quite sometime now.