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EvC
17-07-2006, 21:56
I'm playing in a tournament in a couple of weeks, and I'm thinking of using my lovely converted vampire on a winged nightmare... and going all out for the added terror factor. The combo I like is level 3 wozzard, Aura of Dark Majesty (Especially necessary if he's flying off elsewhere), Talon of Death and Walking Death, with the obligatory Great Weapon.

This will mean he'll basically be able to charge into any unit of almost any size, wipe out some to all of the front rank with the Talon (Do enemies get hand weapon and shield save from that, or just shield? Tis not a close combat casualty, after all...), wipe out the next rank in combat with the 9 S6+ attacks, then have them run off. Even an unbreakable unit of 20 slayers will only last two of my turns with that on them... plus up to three spells shooting off in my magic phase is always nice.

Of course, it's a HUGE point sink, and not many people like using Lord + Hero characters in a regular game, but hey, it's only a bit of fun :D

Thoughts?

shadowprince
17-07-2006, 22:04
the thing is, its just asking for every siege weopon on the field. If you were going blood dragon it might be worth it, but with the carstiens they do a lot for your army so I like them with my troops.

EvC
17-07-2006, 22:17
Why would a Blood Dragon make it more worth it? He's already got the killing power...

DirtJumper
17-07-2006, 22:27
A Blood Dragon isen't the one doing the summoning normally (Yay lvl 1 wizard :D), but a lvl 3 is a bit iffy because that's most of your magic power gets tied up in combat most of the game instead of raising units and restoring wounds on the rest of your army.

shadowprince
17-07-2006, 22:36
Why would a Blood Dragon make it more worth it? He's already got the killing power...

A blood dragon is meant to do all your killing for you. While a Von Carstien does a lot of support for your army. Now if the von carstien is off playing hero he really can't support the other units with his abilities, he can't cast in combat. And as it has been said a Von carstien does a lot of the summoning. Whie a bloodragon is meant not to cast but to do that damage for you. Thus he would be better chargeing a unit with a monster, becuase it is what he is supposed to be doing and you don't loose that support for your units, which hopefully is why you choose the Carstiens.

vampires are cool!
17-07-2006, 22:44
i wouldnt take the aura of dark majesty; you can use the flying movement of your winged nightmare to zip him around the army so that all the units can march, also this allows him to get in position for a more useful [and less risky] flank or rear charge.
with the surpluse 25pts id take something simple like an extra dispel scroll of even the gem of blood.
its a good combo, but i would use the flying potentail to manover your own troops, then when the armies arived get clobberin' the enemy

EvC
17-07-2006, 23:33
You can still cast spells while you're engaged in combat, just not magic missiles, so he can still support while in combat. Thanks for the advice, all... maybe between now and the tournament I'll buy a blister of Blood Dragons and switch over to the violent side...

I'd be tempted to take the Book of Arkhan in place of AoDM... I can just imagine the look on my opponents' faces as I fly my general to the flank of one of his flanking units, pound him with 7 power dice worths' of magic and then VDM into the flank, break them and then take on the next unit too! Bit mean though...

gukal
18-07-2006, 13:55
I enjoy doing this on occassion. Its fun to tool around on a monster but still have a full complement of characters. I warn you the main issue is that the nightmare is not particularly durable.

Even against Bretonnia, my vampire frequently ends up on foot by the end of the game because a couple units of bowmen and a couple successful lore of life spells is enough to kill a Winged Nightmare.

Against an army with real shooting (of which there are many), unless there is an abundance of cover, odds are he'll be walking on Turn 2.

Take this into account.

- Gukal

Keller
18-07-2006, 14:35
Taking a Winged Nightmare can be loads of fun. They can be risky, and can be killed off easily, but they make the game a bit more exciting. I used to use them from time to time, though I haven't been able to play in quite a while now. I used to love taking them when I played Nechrachs to fly to the center of the enemy army with Death Lore and Master of the Black Arts to Drain Life everything in 18".

If you do take the Nightmare, I still suggest you use Aura of Dark Majesty. Being able to fly will just increase your likliness that you get away from the army, and you need to keep them moving. I never leave home without that power when I play my Carstiens.

As for protecting your Nightmare from shooting, just take a unit of 5 or more Black Knights and give them the Banner of Doom for a 5+ ward save vs shooting. The vampire on Winged Nightmare joins the unit, slowing them to his walking/running speed, but he gains a 1/3 chance to shrug off missile hits of any kind. Since he is a larger model, opponents will target him instead of the knights (well, if they want to kill the general,) leaving your knight unit unharmed from all of the arrows. Once you get in range, you have a 20" charge on the Nightmare to leap out of the safety of the banner and into the saftey of combat.


If you want one, you could always use a Count instead of a Lord, giving up WS, I, W, and A, but gaining another character for support. Personally, I don't think it matters, so I'd go for the Lord.

EvC
18-07-2006, 14:45
I believe that it's not possible for a flying creature to join another unit (<--wrong!), but the rest sounds very encouraging :)

If I do fight on tables with little scenery and lots of archery, then I'll be sure to keep him close to units for protection in case the mount dies. I would be rather annoyed to lose my general on turn one or two!

Latro
18-07-2006, 14:48
I think it's the other way around ... characters can't join flying units (didn't check The Book though, too warm, melting ... *gasp*)


:cool:

EvC
18-07-2006, 14:53
Right you are guv, thanks for that!

shadowprince
19-07-2006, 02:53
Yes but Auro of Dark Majesty is much much cheaper than useing a winged nightmare, thus allowing you other units. I am not saying a Carstien on a Nightmare is bad, but a Blood Dragon is better at it.

Keller
19-07-2006, 15:07
Yes but Auro of Dark Majesty is much much cheaper than useing a winged nightmare, thus allowing you other units. I am not saying a Carstien on a Nightmare is bad, but a Blood Dragon is better at it.

Aura of Dark Maj is exactly why I think Carstien are better on a Winged Nightmare than the Blood Dragon. The idea shouldn't be to move your general to keep your troops moving, you need to get him into combat to make kills. On the Nightmare, you are more likely to be out of range of your infantry, which is why the Aura is so helpful.

Also, I could see the challenge rule of the Blood Dragons getting in the way when you charge into an enemy unit. Sure, there's overkill to be made, but you are better off usign your vampire and the Nightmare to attack ordinary troopers to gain CR and not crumble.

EvC
19-07-2006, 15:56
Well I think I'm going to go for it, it sounds like fun (Though I'm getting very paranoid about artillery...)! It's such a huge points investment though, my army is really small!

Vampire Lord, Great Weapon, AoDM, Walking Death, Talon of Death
Winged Nightmare

Necromancer- Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

Wight BS, Flayed Hauberk

Big unit of skeletons
One small each unit of ghouls and dire wolves
Three spirit hosts
8 Black Knights with the 5+ Ward Save banner
Black Coach
Banhsee

Tips? :)

warlord hack'a
19-07-2006, 15:58
do not forget that you have NO armour save and NO ward save, so you will get wounds. Add this to +5 static CR of a normal enemy infantry block and you are going to bounce unless you charge the side or rear, which puts you at par with a lot of other flying superheroes: very expensive for the role that skirmishers, scouts, fast cav and flyers can fulfill almost as well. Personally I would love it when I see such a point sink on the table, "all bolts and rocks that way!"

crashbang
19-07-2006, 16:36
i'd have to agree with hacka sadly. extremely nice if it hits home, but every army had firepower of some sort (bar those 'corn' guys, forgotten the name:angel:)

although I'd have to use my storm banner to stop it

gukal
19-07-2006, 16:39
Well
Vampire Lord, Great Weapon, AoDM, Walking Death, Talon of Death
Winged Nightmare

Necromancer- Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll

Wight BS, Flayed Hauberk

Big unit of skeletons
One small each unit of ghouls and dire wolves
Three spirit hosts
8 Black Knights with the 5+ Ward Save banner
Black Coach
Banhsee

Tips? :)

I wouldn't run this list without a substantial number of bats and wolves to threaten warmachines and kill opposing wizards.

Once the artillery is screened or dead, I would plan to combine charge with the knights. You can line them up with Knights in front and Winged Nightmare in back (but large target). Then declare the combined charge (splitting enemy frontage.

Result:

2-3 enemy dead from Talon (no CR, but maybe one less enemy rank); +1 Rank; +1 Standard; easily 4-5 wounds; +1 Walking Death; maybe outnumber. This combination will generate 7-8 CR and has a good chance to break (or autobreak) a unit on the charge and pass through.

It commits a lot of points to one battle. But these are highly mobile points. Its a decisive way to bring combat power to bear on a weak point in the enemy line .... as long as no one shoots you down.

It looks like a classic denied flank approach. I'd save points on the skeletons and produce a couple mid-sized units of zombies to control the mid-field. The coach also may not be helpful in this case. Use points saved to field your best warmachine hunters.

- Gukal

shadowprince
19-07-2006, 19:28
As said the problem is no protection at all on the lord. He is going to be an absolute pincushion T5 is good but not hard to get past.

Senbei
19-07-2006, 19:33
Cross your fingers and hope that thralls and Wight-lords can ride them come the VC update. It's silly to put the lynchpin of your army on a monster when it just makes him 95% easier to single out and shoot with a cannon.

ZomboCom
19-07-2006, 20:21
Winged nightmares are only worth using with blood dragons, and for one simple reason - they can get an armour save! Without a save for the rider or mount they'll be both shot to death exceptionally quickly. A round or two of handgunners will kill them both.

gukal
19-07-2006, 20:25
Winged nightmares are only worth using with blood dragons, and for one simple reason - they can get an armour save! Without a save for the rider or mount they'll be both shot to death exceptionally quickly. A round or two of handgunners will kill them both.

Of course (if your willing to devote the points) any bloodline can have a 3+ Ward Save versus shooting for the vampire. Its much harder to protect the mount.

- Gukal

EvC
20-07-2006, 16:26
The Lord/ WN should be able to hold its own on a frontal charge on ANY unit- I have to cause only 4 wounds out of 9 attacks, most hitting on a 3 and killing on a 2. But then I think I probably will be keeping the WN with my BK where necessary for the 5+ ward save and doing combined charges.

I think I may drop the Black Coach (I love the model and I love whacking chariots into the enemy- but my propenssity for rolling ones on impact hits means the Black Coach rarely gets its full points back, and usually gets killed: with a terror-causing WN, its value drops somewhat), change to a total of 2 small units of Dire Wolves instead and a two-model bat swarm (I know, only 10" movement, but I don't have any Fell Bat models)...

Blood Dragons' armour save on a Winged Nightmare isn't that worthy... most the shot will hit the mount, and if they're firing a handgun, then that's -2 save so only 5+, which coincidentally is the same as the ward save my lord will have.

But great advice from people, as I said I'm paranoid about artillery, so I probably will be extra careful. If that means hiding my general behind a tree when facing a Dwarf player as he pulls out 5 cannons, then so be it...

gukal
20-07-2006, 17:47
The Lord/ WN should be able to hold its own on a frontal charge on ANY unit- I have to cause only 4 wounds out of 9 attacks, most hitting on a 3 and killing on a 2.

This means you will be counting on rolling average dice. 2/3 hits and 5/6 wounds = 5/9 before saves on average opponants. Those 5 wounds and Walking Death will put you "just" ahead of the enemy musician. Then, because you don't outnumber, the enemy will get its re-rollable break test on a modified LD 6/7/8. At which point, you must now weather the enemy countercharge.

I may be stating the obvious here. If so, please disregard. But I want to make sure you have a sense of why you are putting your Lord on a monster.

Almost every time I lose my general, it is due to combat resolution (skitterleaped master assassins notwithstanding). Often when I lose him to combat resolution, it is because I put him out on a limb and failed to break the enemy on the charge.

With a Lord/monstrous mount combination, you don't just need to hold your own. A drawn combat usually won't cut it. Quite often, you will need to overrun or pursue out of a dangerous spot.

Or restated, "holding its own" is what an anvil unit does. A hammer unit (like a lord on a flying monster) sweeps in and routs the unit after its engaged with an anvil or combines charges with enough hammer-goodness to ensure a break on the charge (see: Bretonnia playbook).

So before I charge an infantry block with my flying lord, I make sure I see: (i) a flank or rear; (ii) a unit of armored skeletons already engaged with the unit; or (iii) a unit of black knights also poised to attack on some front. In a pinch, I might settle for a flanking unit of dire wolves.

- Gukal

shadowprince
20-07-2006, 20:08
If you want to do this really badly as it has been suggested over and over again g blood dragon, They have a lot more of a punch and with the bloodlines better chance to wound.

EvC
20-07-2006, 23:31
Again, thanks much everyone, especially gukal; I will definitely bear this in mind, and if my enemies have a prime unit in place to do a countercharge on the off-chance that my "hammer" does not break the enemy on the charge, then I will certainly think twice about launching into an all-out assault in such circumstances. The advice I'm being given is invaluable, please no-one hold back, I've lost my Vampire Count general in some pretty unspeakable ways so any and all input is welcomed (I've lost a count to stand-and-shoot charge reaction from skinks, and also from a combat where I raised some zombies and charged them in, not considering that every wound against the zombies would also count against my general).


If you want to do this really badly as it has been suggested over and over again g blood dragon, They have a lot more of a punch and with the bloodlines better chance to wound.

The only advangage a Blood Dragon would give is +2 WS; there are insufficent alternative bloodline powers to consider. I'm already working under the assumption that my Lord has a superior WS and doesn't necessarily want to challenge, so a Blood Dragon has no real advantages in a full-frontal assualt. But thanks anyway, I've used this when considering the above :)

ZomboCom
21-07-2006, 00:15
The only advangage a Blood Dragon would give is +2 WS; there are insufficent alternative bloodline powers to consider. I'm already working under the assumption that my Lord has a superior WS and doesn't necessarily want to challenge, so a Blood Dragon has no real advantages in a full-frontal assualt. But thanks anyway, I've used this when considering the above :)

No, the real benefit the Blood Dragon has is that he can wear armour. Give him an enchanted shield for a 2+ save, and he might actually survive to get into combat.

Combine this with the +1S on the charge and a lance and he's got S8 on the charge with a 2+ save.

Spend the other points however you like - a ward save of some kind may be in order, or just more fighty powers.

EvC
21-07-2006, 00:20
That is a very good point, I hadn't considered the enchanted shield bonus... hmm....

gukal
21-07-2006, 00:42
Blood Dragons are a mixed bag. Here are the factors as I see them:

Pros:

Armor - effective againsts much shooting; useless against the biggest threats (cannons; bolt throwers; etc) which deny armor saves entirely.

Hammer - the Blood Dragon has several powers that can make him more hitty (killing blow; re-rollable attacks for first round; extra attack; higher WS; etc). You will cause more raw wounds with a Blood Dragon.

Cons:

Challenges - begin forced to challenge can hamper your efforts to outnumber. Overkill counts, but you are also after the autobreak.

Weaker magic - Not a big point, but you must be ready for the -1 PD.

- Gukal

EvC
21-07-2006, 01:00
It's worth considering, that a Blood Dragon on a Winged Nightmare, against a fully-ranked unit can only ever obtain a combat resolution score of +5, if threre's a champion who takes the challenge, meaning the fully-ranked unit will win on account of having a musician; however, the von Carstein Lord, on an appropriate mount and with a big weapon, could get a full +5CR from wounds, then +1 from Walking death, making the von Carstein the even better potential hammer...

samw
21-07-2006, 01:03
6 actually, you count the wound aswell. 1CR from causing a wound + 5CR from overkill. BTW I thought a WN only had 3 attacks...

EvC
21-07-2006, 01:12
Actually you are right, in both cases (+6CR from killing a champion... insane!)... this gives the Blood Dragon a slight edge, before you take its spellcasting disadvantage into account. Still, I think I'll be giving the Lord on WN a try, unless any HUGE reasons convince me otherwise :)

(My alternate army would be a Count on a Nightmare, in a BKn unit with the Banner of the Barrow and a Wight Lord Battle Standard for hitting on 3+ and killing blow on 5+ for the Wight Lord... however, I'd have to buy, convert and paint a Wight Lord Battle Standard within 2 weeks, and I'm lazy!)