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malisteen
18-07-2006, 02:21
The description of the Eldar avatar, a statue of living, molten metal inhabited by a fraction of a god's power, is very reminiscent of the description of the living metal necrodermis that houses the Necron C'Tan. Could they be one and the same technology, something the Eldar learned from the C'Tan during that ancient war, and then used to house the shattered remnants of Khaine before they faded back into the warp or were consumed by Slaanesh or Khorne?

The technology of an Avatar seems very differant from other Eldar tech. One would think that if it were a purely eldar thing, it would be based on Wraithbone tech, just with a bigger and more godly spirit stone...

Just a thought. Probably not the first person to mention it, although i did at least do a forum search before posting, just in case.

Khaine's Messenger
18-07-2006, 02:47
Just a thought. Probably not the first person to mention it, although i did at least do a forum search before posting, just in case.

Well, ish. MvS (Liber Chaotica author and all that) seemed fond of suggesting the "tainting of Khaine" (w/ the Nightbringer's necrodermis) is the reason Khorne and Khaine managed to stay distinct until the birth of Slaanesh, where Khaine was sundered and thrown down to the craftworlds (how exactly Khaine managed to wind up on all the craftworlds and none of the Exodite worlds or Commoragh, we don't know). I'd put it down as a real possibility that the Avatar is partly "necron-tech"...but given it's all but divine nature, calling it "technology" may be misleading.

Strikerkc
18-07-2006, 02:59
I would think it wouldn't mesh well. The eldar gods are traditionaly psychic beings, while the c'tan aren't actualy even "gods", just highly powerfull energy/physical creatures. The c'tan wouldn't hide out in bodies that were psychicly resonant (since the warp and psychic manifestations are the only thing that can destroy one forever), and the eldar war god wouldn't hang out in a body that was non-psychicly atuned since it just wouldn't work out.

Long story short. The avatar is just a greater deamon of Khaine (as the blood-thirster is of Khorne), the eldar ellect a great warrior to be the vessel of the avatar (same as an aspiring champion to a normal greater deamon). And the avatar simply manifests as molten living metal becuase Khaine was the eldar god of war/the forge (unless i've goten him mixed up with some one else, I'm almost certain he's the forge god aswell).

Kandarin
18-07-2006, 03:24
And the avatar simply manifests as molten living metal becuase Khaine was the eldar god of war/the forge (unless i've goten him mixed up with some one else, I'm almost certain he's the forge god aswell).

Vaul was the Eldar god of the forge, and was a rival of Khaine. That said, Khaine beat him and might have gotten the capacity for molten metal from him as a 'concession'

malisteen
18-07-2006, 03:49
I'm just wondering, if the Avatar is purely eldar in construction, why molten metal doesn't seem to be used anywhere else in their technology. Everything else eldar has seems to be plastics, ceramics, or wraithbone. The fact that the Avatar isn't found among the other eldar factions is a good point- if it were just coalescing where eldar were, and not something they actually made, then why wouldn't it be with the other factions as well?

Also, fluff on the C'Tan is somewhat contradictory. They're supposedly purely material beings, yet they also supposedly consume souls, which are purely of the warp. It can't be both ways.

it's also possible (although now I'm just rampantly speculating) that, in order to flee from Slaanesh & Khorne, the shattered remnants of Khaine came to the material realm, taking physical form before being inturned in the Avatars.

If that's the case, though, then the Avatars might actually be direct physical parts of Khanie. Yet again, why then would they only appear on the craftworlds?

hivefleetcarrion
18-07-2006, 04:04
i beleive the necron codex mentions that the ctan eat the essance of living things but not the souls, which is why deamons want to flock near the mines on mars in the short story about abbadon. although i havnt read nightbringer so i dont know what is mentioned in there

BodhiTree
18-07-2006, 04:10
If that's the case, though, then the Avatars might actually be direct physical parts of Khanie. Yet again, why then would they only appear on the craftworlds?

If I might hazard a guess, I vaguely remember something from 2nd Ed. Eldar material stating that in the 'final battle' all the Avatars would unite on the battlefield - I think resurrecting Khaine - I could be wrong. But anyway, if my memory isn't terrible, then that implies that there were only a limited amount of Avatars to begin with, and Khaine possibly only sought out the craftworlds for survival. Then again, I had that conversation 6 years ago, so, yeah, you might want to disregard everything I just said. :)

Born Again
18-07-2006, 04:20
Also, fluff on the C'Tan is somewhat contradictory. They're supposedly purely material beings, yet they also supposedly consume souls, which are purely of the warp. It can't be both ways.

As pointed out, they eat life force. There is a distinction between that and souls. Life force is an unspecified energy that breaths life into a being ata cellular level, ie allows cells to reproduce and do their various other functions. A soul is the reflection of a creatures mind in the warp.

MaiRousi
18-07-2006, 05:03
Just a note, not every mysterious, powerful or ancient metal belongs to the necrons/c'tan, just some of em.

Born Again
18-07-2006, 05:10
Good point, that man.

Fir Lirithion
18-07-2006, 05:32
And I thought the Avatar was made from Wraithbone...

If Slaneesh fought Khaine in the warp, his essence might travel through holes in the webway?

The fluff says he scattered his psychic being into shards of stuff. Maybe it's like a Chaos Mutation?

sulla
18-07-2006, 05:38
I would think it wouldn't mesh well. The eldar gods are traditionaly psychic beings, while the c'tan aren't actualy even "gods", just highly powerfull energy/physical creatures.

Not since the necron codex... in a WD of that era it was speculated that they inhabited the material universe. Also, not in "xenology"... Eldar 'gods' are old ones... that's why the Eldar share the same gods as many other races.

Indrid Khold
18-07-2006, 07:08
Actually, somewhere (in the Necron codex, I think) it says that the Eldar myths hold that their gods were born with a great war already raging. So it could be that the Old Ones created the Eldar, whose psychic refelctions in the warp coalesced into various gods.

Or maybe they were Old Ones, afterall. Or funky C'tan themselves. Or none of the above.


Sheesh, debating Games Workshop canon is even worse than debating Biblical canon!

Dat Wildboy
18-07-2006, 07:41
OK, heres how i see it, correct me if i'm wrong, but if not, then i'll tell a story we all know....

khaine was the eldar god of war, but also of martial pride and honour. when the enslaver plague was over, the eldar decided to close all warp gateways, and leave their webway ones open. they would keep the daemons in the warp and themselves on the material plane. khaine was so powerful, and with the nightbringer's necrodermis shards in him, was able to stay on the material plane. vaul and khaine were the only gods left here, as vaul stayed to teach the eldar to use technology as well as psychic powers. eventually he goes back to the warp.

khaine is tricked and is also banished to the warp. khorne has been formed, who acts like khaine, but in the extreme. more murder, more pride etc. khaine is kept separate because of the nightbringer's necrodermis. khaine is probably very angry, and is left to stew for several thousand years.

slaanesh is born. the eldar empire falls, the eldar pantheon is eaten by slaanesh's hunger. slaanesh trys to take khaine after his necrodermis shell is destroyed, but khorne beats her off, as khaine should be part of khorne. the shattering necrodermis (possessed each by a fragment of khaine's spirit) phases out, but as there are no tomb worlds awake for it to go back to to get melted down to make more necrodermis, it just hangs there in space. the craftworlds follow the psychic beacons, collect the shards and stick them in the infinity circuit.

when the eldar want their avatar to fight, they send an exarch into the room where the statue of khaine is, usually housing either the fragment itself, or a conduit to the infinity circuit, they go to the statue and offer themselves to khaine, and after a while, the avatar walks out, ready to go into battle.

the molten metal is super-heated necrodermis. it is necron tech, and it was necron tech which saved khaine. he has alot to thank them for. sorry if you knew all that, but i like telling the story ;)

Kymar
18-07-2006, 14:19
"Dat Wildboy", you have a nice story there, but where the heck did you get it? Its it your own creation or from a specific GW book?


PS-I am certain that the 2nd edition Eldar codex states that it was the Harliquin god that distracted Slaanesh long enough for Khaine to retreat to the craftworld infinity circuit, not Khorne.

Kage2020
18-07-2006, 15:37
I personally find it an interesting premise for the Eldar to have adopted some of the "forms" of the C'tan in their mythology, architecture, etc., but that doesn't mean that the C'tan were responsible for how the Eldar turned out! With that said, it is clear from the 'fluff' that the Avatar was not made from Necron technology.

'Nuff said.

Kage

ryng_sting
18-07-2006, 17:02
As with Eldar wraithguard and wraithlords. Compare and contrast.

Inq. Veltane
18-07-2006, 17:19
Yep, the Eldar Avatar isn't made at all. The Avatar manifests, it is a living being not a piece of technology...

It really is actually a daemon. It is nothing like a C'Tan, in fact it is the very opposite of a C'Tan - rather than being a physical being it is a psychic being.

Similarly the Avatar itself is not 'made' of wraithbone, because it is not made at all. It is awakened... It is a fragment of a god, not a created thing.

Born Again
19-07-2006, 05:17
True... the Great Unclean One is a "shambling mound of rotten flesh" or words to that effect, but it is a manifestation.

In 2nd edition, didn't Avatars follow all the same rules for weaknessess/ strengths as chaos daemons?

masecase
19-07-2006, 11:34
They still do today, but I am not sure, if their is an opposite power he, Khaine, hates so much like Tzeentch hates Nurgle, but Slaanesh would be the most prominent one.

Dspankdo
19-07-2006, 12:21
everyone is reffering to the c'tan as physical beings. this isn't true they are beings of pure energy that are masters of the physical universe.

EarthScorpion
19-07-2006, 14:31
Nope, they're "just" extremely powerful packets of sentient energy packed up in a containing Necrodermis. Energy is physical, as opposed to Warp Based, and they are by no means the masters of the physical universe.

Dat Wildboy
19-07-2006, 14:53
@ kymar- i really don't know, on the GW 40k universe forum, this guy told me, he was making a 40k fluff site, an entire history of everything, and every now and then he'd post something up. i was an avid reader, and this is just me remembering what was written.

apparently he got it from scattered info in 2nd edition eldar codexs, old white dwarfs, necron codex and the current eldar codex, plus bits and pieces to make it flow, and it seems to turn out alright.

i love all things xenos, so memorised the story (i forgot about copy and paste, but nevermind). it seems to fit nicely doesn't it? it had about the war in heaven, the fall, the great crusade, horus heresy etc all in chronological order.

masecase
19-07-2006, 15:01
No they are in effect and praxis quite similiar to Alpha psykers. They might not draw their powers from the warp and can't be affected by pariahs and daemons by doing so, but they also just use vast amounts of energy to shape reality. It doesn't really makes a difference if a C'tan uses his powers to altere chemical reactions in the brains of humans and let it backlash onto their soul or if a psyker does it the opposite way. The only really difference when using theit powers is their energy source. Both forms have advantages and disadvantages. A C'tan doesn't have to worry about demons but burns up its own essence by using its powers. The psyker is in danger of possession while using its powers, but has an infinite amount of energy at his command. It just has to be worried about burning out.

Besides, would an imperial citizien call a psyker a He/She or an It?

Inq. Veltane
19-07-2006, 15:12
A He/She. Assuming that the psyker was human and clearly of one gender or the other.


everyone is reffering to the c'tan as physical beings. this isn't true they are beings of pure energy that are masters of the physical universe.

Energy is matter; matter is energy. Pure Energy is as physical as a lump of steel.

Dspankdo
19-07-2006, 15:57
then how come in there natural state there little more than giant leeches and cant truly affect the physical world. they are physical beings inside the necrodermis

Kage2020
19-07-2006, 21:25
The obvious answer is poor consistentcy/writing... ;)

Kage

Prophaniti
19-07-2006, 23:46
There was an article in White Dwarf a while back explaining how Khaíne got his metal body. It also explains why Khaíne needed 100 magic swords from Vaul, how he found that he only had 99 and a normal one. And thus why he crippled Vaul. Unfortunately I can't remember which one it's in. It's either around the Necron release or the wave serpent as a best guess.

Also it's the Dragon not the Nightbringer that gives him the metal body.

masecase
20-07-2006, 05:00
It was Kaelis Ra, or whatever they called the Nightbringer, who did battle with Khaine.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
20-07-2006, 08:46
There was an article in White Dwarf a while back explaining how Khaíne got his metal body. It also explains why Khaíne needed 100 magic swords from Vaul, how he found that he only had 99 and a normal one. And thus why he crippled Vaul. Unfortunately I can't remember which one it's in. It's either around the Necron release or the wave serpent as a best guess.

Also it's the Dragon not the Nightbringer that gives him the metal body.

I was always under the impression that the Avatars WERE the 100 swords (one was faulty). Their bloody metallic being is so because they were forged by a god. Or were these the wraithlords? I forget.

BodhiTree
20-07-2006, 12:59
I'm not sure if it's redundant to post this link, but I might as well try. :)

http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/1/

Prophaniti
20-07-2006, 20:08
Yeah that's what I was on about. Good find BodhiTree. Also looks like I was wrong about it being the Dragon, oops.

Kage2020
20-07-2006, 21:41
And, of course, one might take a certain amount of purchase on the word "mythology" when referring to the "Eldar mythological cycles". There seems to be a great tendency to view them as fact rather than, say, metaphor. Of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't a kernel of truth, but at the same time it does offer a great deal of lattitude into the equation.

Kage

Lord Solar Plexus
22-07-2006, 08:13
The debate is interesting but ultimately fruitless. You have to bear in mind that Necrons did not exist when 2nd ed dexes were written but only appeared near the end of 2nd ed. To me, the earlier fluff is more canonical, and there the C'Tan and friends played little role. Okay, there were a couple of C'tan weapons but that's it. It hurts to see how some of it is so warped now.


everyone is reffering to the c'tan as physical beings. this isn't true they are beings of pure energy that are masters of the physical universe.

I understand that energy is very much physical. That appears to be no contradiction at all.

Flame of Udun
22-07-2006, 16:44
I was always under the impression that the Avatars WERE the 100 swords (one was faulty). Their bloody metallic being is so because they were forged by a god. Or were these the wraithlords? I forget. The swords of Vaul were the Blackstone fortresses, which are the ultimate weapon against the necrons. Unfortunately they have been nabbed by Abbadon during the Gothic War.

Jordic
22-07-2006, 23:03
The swords of Vaul were the Blackstone fortresses, which are the ultimate weapon against the necrons. Unfortunately they have been nabbed by Abbadon during the Gothic War.

The Talismans of Vaul were the Blackstones, not the Swords. In the original 2nd Ed. codex background for the Eldar "War in Heaven", the use for the Swords created by Vaul for Khaine was never specified, simply that Khaine found the 100th blade to be flawed and punished Vaul for it.

As for the burning metal body, my theory is that it comes purely out of the Eldar iconography. He is frequently stated as "Burning with rage" or something similar, and is often the case in mythologies, this may well have shaped the form he took. He was a searing, burning god with blood dripping constantly from his hand before he was shattered by Slaanesh, so it's not just the Avatars that are thus.

Kage2020 suggested the discrepancy in the C'Tan's apparently inability to "truly affect the physical world" (earlier post from Dspankdo) was as a result of poor consistency/writing. I disagree, with both points. What more effect would you like them to have on the physical world than causing the death of stars and, as such, whole star systems. Plus, there's the fact that the living metal necrodermi of the C'Tan is not in itself the source of any real power. After all, the same metal comprises the Monoliths and the majority of the ships of the Necron fleet. Rather, it's the abilities of the C'Tan housed within the shell, exercised upon it, that make it do all the funky stuff.

Just my tuppence worth. I realise everyone has their own ideas, and in until someone from GWHQ steps forwards and states fact, we can debate forever. I take some consolation in the fact that, as has already been said, the Eldar and their Avatars came first, before the Necrons entered the background. They are found of retroactively making links, even if the link if tenuous and invovles a crowbar... ;) (Tau Spyrer suits, anyone?)

Kage2020
22-07-2006, 23:33
He was a searing, burning god with blood dripping constantly from his hand before he was shattered by Slaanesh, so it's not just the Avatars that are thus.
Which ultimately comes down to image.


Kage2020 suggested the discrepancy in the C'Tan's apparently inability to "truly affect the physical world" (earlier post from Dspankdo) was as a result of poor consistency/writing.
Not quite. I merely implied that the inability to consistently extend said abilities were a result of poor writing and, if you are to believe the authors, obviously an inability of us dumb hicks to actually get at what they're trying to say.

In short, either the point was missed or it wasn't made clearly enough. I'm guessing it is the latter.


Rather, it's the abilities of the C'Tan housed within the shell, exercised upon it, that make it do all the funky stuff.
Obviously. The nature of this is, however, completely up for grabs because of the dubious nature of the 'fluff': it would appear that the writers lack creative focus because of the lack of cohesion of the material itself. This also means that when a writer has such focus they are often revilved as being unable to understand the 'fluff'.

And thus fallacious circles are made.


I realise everyone has their own ideas, and in until someone from GWHQ steps forwards and states fact, we can debate forever.
And even then it only makes a difference for those that feel they are slaved to the will of some chappies in Nottingham or, well, wherever.

Kage

Hellebore
23-07-2006, 18:00
The debate is interesting but ultimately fruitless. You have to bear in mind that Necrons did not exist when 2nd ed dexes were written but only appeared near the end of 2nd ed. To me, the earlier fluff is more canonical, and there the C'Tan and friends played little role. Okay, there were a couple of C'tan weapons but that's it. It hurts to see how some of it is so warped now.


Not a single thing in the C'tan background relating to the eldar contradicts 2nd ed material. The C'tan WERE in the 2nd ed codex, by the name the eldar gave them: Yngir.

The yngir were supposedly demigods that fought in the war of heaven both with and against Khaine.

Obviously when that info was written they weren't referring to the C'tan, however by saying the C'tan WERE the Yngir they took a throw away line and used it to support new material.

Thus it isn't contradictory because anything written about the Yngir is everything the C'tan did.

Hellebore

Kage2020
23-07-2006, 18:04
Which doesn't justify the mould of the current 'fluff', of course, even if it does show that by setting up a few throw-away lines one can achieve supposed miracles in terms of conformance. ;)

Kage

Hellebore
23-07-2006, 18:31
Which doesn't justify the mould of the current 'fluff', of course, even if it does show that by setting up a few throw-away lines one can achieve supposed miracles in terms of conformance. ;)

Kage

No, but then what does? Fanboys are notoriously conservative about their sacred lore, and none of them would agree on what the 'correct' course of the fluff would be.

My stance stems from my understanding of all the background. The Old Ones have been around since RT, and we knew even then that some great calamity occurred to cause a apocryphal fall from grace. There was some hint of a war, against chaos or some other foe, but a war none the less.

I must admit I did not make the connection between the War in Heaven of the Eldar and the fall of the Old Ones- perhaps because no hard numbers were given on the timeline of either. However making one a myth of the other does not contradict it.

Basically, to me, it comes down to this: The Old Ones fell from grace due to a calamity, and SOMETHING had to be the source of it.

If it wasn't the C'tan, it could have been the 'ork' menace. Which I think many people would find laughable. Thus, having created a god-like race of superbeings as the primogenitors of their universe's mythos, GW's writers felt they had to create an equally powerful and malific foe with which they did battle (being a battlegame world and all;) ). Anything else would have seemed... inane.

Whilst I am sure many people could come up with what they feel is a 'better' explenation of the demise of the Old Ones, GW did actually provide an answer to a mystery- an accomplishment in itself for them (they love their ambiguity).

So, my primary concern with the C'tan fluff was that it did not contradict any of the older information (something they did quite cleverly, I felt. Weaving all those apparent throwaway lines together to create a place for them was better than just pretending they were always there without ANY information- or stuff they simply made up at the release).

The second was that it did not create a perception of superiority. I loved that 40k painted each faction in its own light, and I loathe the tau fanboys who claim the tau are the 'good guys'. Apart from being untrue, it creates an unfair bias in perception of other races. Thus I didn't want to see the Necrons as the ultimate evil, which they aren't.

All factions have the CAPACITY to be 'ultimate evil', but that does not mean they ARE.

The third was in regards to interesting story. I found the eldar mythology became more appealing when they made the Yngir manifest- as a throw away line it had no impact, as a described race within the galaxy/warp it gave much more gravitas to the story. The developments in regards to Khaine, Vaul and the origins of wraithguard and witch weaponry I quite enjoyed.

The vague references to the machine cult originally worshipping a c'tan gave me an 'inquisitor' moment. You said you quite liked the inquisitorial factions created with the release of the game Inquisitor, Kage, (I did too, it certainly gave them much more personality) this supposed split amongst the machine cult affected me the same way.

The idea that humanity achieved so much due to the presence of necron technology on Mars is one of my favourite horses to ride, because I don't find it plausible given the short timespan that humanity could have done it naturally (I am, on the whole, an antihumanist. I detest it when humans are shown to be the moral and intellectual superior to advanced alien races in scifi- Star Trek does this ad nauseum). Whilst I wasn't the biggest fan of Stargate SG-1 (preferring the film), it did portray humans in a somewhat more realistic light. All their technology they stole from the advanced aliens they encountered, retroengineering it to adapt to human equipment.

Anyway, none of the three main points I considered were bad enough to warrant my disapproval, and thus I embraced the C'tan. Their presence also better defined the eldar I thought as well.

Hellebore

Flame of Udun
23-07-2006, 20:15
I think it really boils down to interpretation, I think that the Ctan and the Necrontyr should be regarded as the polar opposite of the Eldar and the avatar of Khaine should have nothing to do with necron technology. The Avatars should remain as the burning, bloody handed aspects of the Eldar god of war. I mean an Avatar is by definition the physical manifestation of a deity and the 40K universe doesn't really seem to like the idea of god and mythology in the classical sense which IMO is a real shame.


I loved that 40k painted each faction in its own light, and I loathe the tau fanboys who claim the tau are the 'good guys'.
hehe, loathe away dude but remember that the Eldar were once percieved in the same light back in 2nd ed.

AmasNagol
24-07-2006, 06:08
Eldar weren't portrayed that way in 2nd Ed.

And the Necrodermis is a construct. It is not a being. It is simply a container. Therefor there is no reason that lovely collection of pieces of information woven into a story which Da Wildboy gave us cannot be true.

Fragments of the Necrodermis which tainted Khaine now house the fragments of the deity. It makes sense and is not contradicted by any existing background canon.

"Avatar made with Necron tech" is misleading though. Avatars given a physical form through Necron tech is fine and dandy. Afterall, Greater Daemons usually appear by possession.

Emperor's Grace
24-07-2006, 19:21
Not quite. I merely implied that the inability to consistently extend said abilities were a result of poor writing and, if you are to believe the authors, obviously an inability of us dumb hicks to actually get at what they're trying to say.Kage

I always took the apparent contradiction to be due to "notice".

The original Ctan bled stars dry in the physical universe ... and could have done everything that they do now... if they had wanted to or even noticed our presence.

I thought that I remembered that the original "download" of the Ctan was not well received by the Ctan. They were shifted from thinking on the galalctic scale to the personal scale. But it did cause them to notice "us".

Before this they didn't interfere for the same reason we usually don't interfere with ant society. Why bother with something so trivial?

Flame of Udun
24-07-2006, 19:28
Eldar weren't portrayed that way in 2nd Ed.

Well perhaps not to the extent that the Tau are today but amongst many gamers that I know, who have played since the days of rogue trader, they were often seen as "good guys".


Fragments of the Necrodermis which tainted Khaine now house the fragments of the deity. It makes sense and is not contradicted by any existing background canon.

"Avatar made with Necron tech" is misleading though. Avatars given a physical form through Necron tech is fine and dandy. Afterall, Greater Daemons usually appear by possession.
It might not be contradictory but its damn boring IMO, I mean why do the necrons have to be responsible for everything these days? Sure the Eldar and Necrontyr have a history but the avatar has never exhibited any propertied common to the c'tan necrodermis and according to the 2nd ed fluff
The Avatar's body is fashioned from burning iron and its blood is glowing magma
which does not sound like anything fashioned by the Ctan or necrontyr.

Inq. Veltane
24-07-2006, 20:05
Well perhaps not to the extent that the Tau are today but amongst many gamers that I know, who have played since the days of rogue trader, they were often seen as "good guys".

They were/are 'good guys' - they will do whatever is necessary to ensure the survival of their people. They certainly aren't 'nice' but they also aren't evil.

Flame of Udun
24-07-2006, 21:18
Well you can pretty much say that about everyone except chaos, orks and the necrons. What I meant was that they were seen as THE good guys as opposed to, well, everyone else really during 2nd ed. But considering there was either the imperium, chaos, orks or nids (not including necrons as they came rather late) it isn't really hard to see why they were seen as such.

Commander Ozae
25-07-2006, 17:08
Eldar fight for their survival so that means they could be evil in the eyes of the Imperium, but they hate Chaos and the Necrons more than anyone else. They are not the absolute good-guys (go Imperium, Humans Forever :) but they are good from our perspective. They are the only race with the knowledge to defeat the Necrons and/or Chaos, but they don't have the numbers. Imagine if the Imperium and the eldar united, nothing would be able to stand agains them. Wishful thinking i know but a guy can dream right?