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Castorp
19-07-2006, 11:27
Hi,
my first thread here at WarSeer. So let's see.

I was wondering one kind of size your Beastmen herds usually have? I heard that there are a couple of differenent philosophies. At this forum I have seen them quite big, while in my club they are field in general in smaller herds.

Cheers,
Castorp

Donga666
19-07-2006, 12:01
Strangly enough the Beast herd box is about the right size @ 20 (12/8 Gors/Ungors) with full command. I would go bigger if anything but around 20 is good. So you can field 3 or 4 of them plus some hard hitting good-ness and some sacrificial hounds Ta Da! An army :D

Castorp
19-07-2006, 13:45
For my Mortals the Beastmen have a rather supportiv role, I normally field 5-6 Gors and 8 Ungors. I find 12 Gors just two much, they are only hindering the Ungors operating their spears.

Castorp

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-07-2006, 13:50
I agree about the boxed regiment. Pretty much ideal size. Big enough to be a threat, but small enough to run away without really denting your lines.

Makaber
19-07-2006, 13:57
This has been discussed a lot over at the Herdstone, and the conclution is thusly:

First of all, it depends on what you want the herd to do. If you want it ambushing war machines, march blocking, and generally being a nusicance, it should be small and cheap. If you want a larger unit to act as a main fighting force, it needs to be larger. This part is obvious.

Secondly, the gor/ungor ratio. In a 20-strong herd, the ideal balance is generally considered to be in the region 8/12 to 10/10. Having too many gors doens't really help the herd, as it's only the front gors that fight. Having an abundance of gors just costs more points, decreases the number of spears you can get into the second rank, and reduces the number of disposable ungors to handle missile fire. You typically need enough gors to cover the front tank of a battle while in combat with a 5-wide regiment of 25mm bases. That's generally the widest regiment you'll end up against over the course of your beastherd career, and it means you'll need about 7 ungors for the front rank, plus some spares to take attrition. Ergo, 8/12 to 10/10.

Finally, it's a good idea to have herds in the size of multiples of four, plus one. 13, 17, and 21 are the common choices here. The reason for this is that it's harder to inflict 25% casualties by shooting, thus forcing a panic check. In a regiment of 10-12, you only need to kill three ungors, but by upping it to 13, you increase this number to four.

Personally, I used to run three large herds of 10/10 (mostly because it's hard to get ungor models, it's not that much more expensive than 8/12, and I like having the spare gors anyway), with a character, thus upping the size to 21. Lately I've been experimenting with splitting one of the herds into two small 5/5 ones, though. The large 20-herds are a bit unwieldy for finesse work. I would go 5/8, but I don't have enough ungor models.

DeathlessDraich
19-07-2006, 14:01
1) Ambushing herds - Used to surround and support charges or against warmachines. Tends to be smaller if used against warmachines but need to be able to absorb at least 1 round of magic and shooting. 12 seems common and could fulfill both roles if there is another ambushing unit.

2) Main herds: 16 is regarded as a min. and 20 comes close to the maximum. 12 is needed in combat and assuming 4-6 are lost through magic and shooting, that gives a min. 16/18.

Max size: The herd's skirmishing rule limits its size. A herd which is too big may not find sufficient cover or may be too big to fulfill the charge requirements. Lastly if it does become unruly, a lot of points might be wasted from a gigantic herd.

crashbang
19-07-2006, 17:17
id agree with what they said, except i would have all my herds, ambushing or not, large herds. its very pressurising to suddenly find your army surrounded with 6/8 beastherds (thats what i'd do)

or you could take morghur, the character in back of the book, and about 20 tiny beast man herds. gather them round morghur, and the opponent 1st turn has potentially twenty (yes twenty) chaos spawn to deal with. oooh the fun...:D . and then you have the other turns, and any of your oppoenents stuff that gets affected.:cool: :D :evilgrin:

lucky git
19-07-2006, 20:16
hee hee

the size I usually field a beast herd is 7 gors 9 ungors. FC 2nd henad weapon. ungors with their spears. only 4 models that have to be in range. they can even take a charge. in the new edition the 7 gors become very valuable cause you need 5 models for ranks so that means you usually can get them all in CC.

Sander

PelsBoble
19-07-2006, 20:41
As said the herd size is decided by the use the herd got in the army. Still you really want more ungors than gors. Also as you really dont want to have shield on the ungors(or gors for that matter) its nice concernign the cost. If you use them for screening troops its even more important to have some extra ungors around as cannonfodder :)

the_night_reaper
19-07-2006, 22:56
Well the way I use my beastherds is using 2-3 units to screen the main body of my army and when they enemy gets close they can usually charge the weaker units and break them.

I run my herds with 6 gor, 14 ungor (I just cut off the gor horns and give them spears) and full command. This comes to the small price of 133pts. Quite the bargain for what it does. Also I put my bray shamans in here for protection and for a little bit more combat power.

In combat lets say no gors have been killed yet, my unit is 6 models wide and I have at least a full second rank (this is the most common formation my unit takes). I'd get two strength 5 attacks from the bray shaman (bray staff), three s4 attacks from the foe-render, eight s3 attacks from the gors at ws 4, and 5 s3 attacks from my ungors' spears.
That's 18 attacks and plus you get +1/2 cr for rank bonus and +1 for a standard. Against a run of the mill unit with ws3 t3 and a 4+ armour save, I usually kill about 5-9 depending on how lucky I am. That a usual minimum of 8cr.

This is also the setup I use for ambushing beast herds except without the bray shaman.

But I guess people have different preferences.

Rikkjourd
20-07-2006, 09:57
This may be a bit OT, but I have a tip for all of you who need more ungors and less gors to make good ratios. Bring out your green stuff and bitz box and upgrade some of your gors to bestigors (any flavour) or characters or whatever (the standard bearer arm which you get an abundance of is good to make menacing great weapons from). It is a very forgiving model to convert, I have done it myself. Also, if you bring chariots you could switch the ungor in them for some normal footslogging gors. Voila, a gor becomes an ungor. Nobody will notice the change on your chariot, it still has the right number of cows on it =)

popisdead
15-08-2006, 22:32
7 gor 10 ungor. Sadly GW really blew it with the ratio the box set is a waste of about 30 pts, which IIRC is the Armour of Damnation which goes on your wargor.

You never need more than 7 gor and so why pay pts for models you don't need?

5/5 w/ just a musician works too as it's small and cheap.

pox
16-08-2006, 08:19
I go with 8 gor, and 16 ungor. its a huge unit, but always hits like a truck. the other reson for the unit size is looks. my beast army base build is 3 units of 24 beast herds, and 3 units of 24 bestigors. add some chariots and about 5 units of 5 warhounds, you gotta party.

ardude
16-08-2006, 10:56
a normal flank is 4 models wide. so you mostly need to rank them up in ranks of 6 ( cous with skirmish units you need to put as many bases in combat)
you also still want full rnak bonus so I would go with 24 modelles.
8 gor 16 ungor

eldrak
16-08-2006, 12:03
How do people generally play with their herds, do they move them one by one as skirmishers or put them on a base in a loose formation?

Darmort
16-08-2006, 12:32
Why? Full Rank Bonus with a Beastherd is 2...
If you want your Ranks, then 24 means you'll just have 8 (7 come 7th Edition) more models to loose before you start getting killed.
I use them as flankers. 11/8+12/8 (the other Gor is now a converted Bray-Shaman), with a Musician and Foe-Render (as flankers, Standard Bearers are useless). In 3000 Points, they are not only cheap, but are like mini-tanks, and once experienced it's a choice of shooting these, the Kult of Rasneth (counts as Khorne game-wise) or the masses of Marauders. All of which spell doom for the enemy. :p

Also, never arm Shields on Gors or Ungors. Model them, sure, but never arm them. They're useless as the Ungors will just be made too expensive and it cuts down the usage of both Gors and Ungors. Most shooting will negate it anyway, and if you use them right, you'll only loose a few models in combat. And never forget to take a Foe-Render; that +1 Leadership can be extremely handy if you're out of the General's range, or you don't have a Character with you. Besides, you can accept/declare challenges (to save your mage/Character from something big or to challenge a unit hero so your own hero can try challenging he mage).

Rikkjourd - And if someone does notice then you can say that that Gor is a weeping weedy grot (yes, I get to use tha at last! :p). ;)

eld - Move 'em one by one like Skirmishers.