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View Full Version : for high elf players a Poll



shadowprince
22-07-2006, 06:09
Ok well I have heard two views on what High elfs and evend ark elfs need.

First similar rules but a reduction in points.

Second better stats and rules but higher points

so I decided to get a poll to see which is more popular.

shadowprince
22-07-2006, 06:11
I personally like the better rules and stats to make elfs more of an elite army, with the ability for the idividual elfs to just cut through most troops , but being slowed by their numbers.

And not just there for a war of attrition

athamas
22-07-2006, 07:40
the problem with the HE army is that it is perfectly playable, you just have to play it one way.. all cav and mage's

HE armies are really rather predictable...

i think elves should cost more than oter troops, and have the rules and stats to back up those points costs..

god octo
22-07-2006, 07:42
the WE got more expensive in their new book- wardancers went up in price by 3 points each- and a similar thing with HE would work.

Tobias
23-07-2006, 17:49
the problem with the HE army is that it is perfectly playable, you just have to play it one way.. all cav and mage's

HE armies are really rather predictable...

i think elves should cost more than oter troops, and have the rules and stats to back up those points costs..


No, then you are a bad player. HE is an easy army to win with, just make sure you balance everything ...

I one time got 3rd(I think) with a HE army that included LSG ... WEll evn LSG rule outside the LSG army ;)

samw
23-07-2006, 18:27
Ok well I have heard two views on what High elfs and evend ark elfs need.

First similar rules but a reduction in points.

Second better stats and rules but higher points

so I decided to get a poll to see which is more popular.

How about similar rules and more well spread points? Get rid of that nonsensical magic item discount and stick silver helms in special and I could tolerate a point drop here or there. Again, this is not Tolkien elves are not demi gods. (chaos are :p )

Arnizipal
23-07-2006, 19:01
Aren't these two poll choices essentially the same? :eyebrows:

shadowprince
23-07-2006, 20:06
No they are not. They both assume a change but it is to see what type of change you want.

chivalrous
24-07-2006, 12:25
Where's the poll choice for "I think they're fine as they are?"
Because that is my honest opinion as a player of both armies.


No, then you are a bad player.

I think you're being a bit rough there. You need to take into account the atitudes of a player opponents as well as the player themself.
If you're up against opponents who are only fielding gunlines, SAD's and all cav Bretonnians then sometimes going with the stock list is all you can do to stick it to them.

I agree with the sentiment though, there are player who play to win rather than play to learn.


just make sure you balance everything ...


Too bloody true, Elves aren't Dwarfs or Chaos or Orks, where you can just throw units into combat and assume they'll come out on top.
They need to be used patiently and supported with other units and all elves, against slower armies (anything but other elves in fact), have the units to do this with.

giner
24-07-2006, 17:38
Elves should be more expensive but better with the exception of archers who should just be better. I would just like to see them being able to hold against a charge.

Arnizipal
24-07-2006, 18:34
Elves should be more expensive but better with the exception of archers who should just be better. I would just like to see them being able to hold against a charge.
24 High Elf Spearmen. Full Command and a Commander with some magic kit.
Can take a decent charge and dish out as well.

Tobias
28-07-2006, 14:15
Gehe and if you won´t bows take this

17 LSG+full command+commander with reaver bow and great weapon, line up i na big line and shoote verything, smallunits you stand andshoot to death and big units you reform in 6×3 and kill them ...

Why is that unit good?
They can hold and entire flank
Opponents think whaahah LSG they are bad I will kill the other units first,leavign a lot of points.

Why not?
Many points

I used them once, they did quite wel

;)

But what you always need in a HE army ...
1 unit spearmen
1 unit silve rhelms
eagles
2 chariots

I always build from that with the following restrictions
Not more than 2 mages
not more than 2 units cav
not more than 2 eagles
not more than 2 chariots

Works for me ;)

Eldacar
31-07-2006, 03:10
Opponents think whaahah LSG they are bad I will kill the other units first,leavign a lot of points.
Stupid opponents. I'd do a combined charge on that unit as soon as I could if it were the only thing holding the flank of your army together, and the LSG aren't all that tough in the first place for what you're paying.


I one time got 3rd(I think) with a HE army that included LSG ... WEll evn LSG rule outside the LSG army
You know, it would be quite amusing to see how well your opponents in that tournament/campaign/whatever did against some serious powergamers. My bet would have the game ending in turn four, with the victory going to the powergamers every time.

shadowprince
31-07-2006, 05:53
Agree with Eldacar. Were I play it goes something like this SAD, SAD, Necro Hord, KHORN Calv, RAF. Then four players tha tused balanced armies. I go with a mix between high magi and balanced troops. All the players are good. I tried fielding Seguard when I first started playeing, they went down hard.

Parka boy
31-07-2006, 22:00
As far back as I remember high elves have always been crappy but not having T4 for character sure does suck hard.

TheWarSmith
31-07-2006, 22:10
1)Silverhelms need a cap(put them in special) OR a points hike

2)archers fire in 2 ranks(like all bowmen already should)

3)Screw the cheap walmart magic items

4)Change units to make them more viable(phoenix guard, LSG, white lions, etc.)


The HUGE problem that High elves have is NOT that they suck. They're a very good force. The main problem is that the units they have to choose from are either very good, or very bad, which often generates the min/max armies you see(mage cav to the rescue).

Make special rules for the phoenix guard such as always striking first(it's going to have a standardized name in 7th anyway). LSG could move and fire or something similar.

One thing HE players need to keep in mind is that toe to toe, HE are better than DE, so simply lowering the points would put them back to DE poitns levels and create a host of more problems.

jgtrumpet2005
02-08-2006, 16:24
I think HE are pretty much ok as they are, you can make a low magic/low cavalry army work, with a bit of thought.

Voted for a point reduction, mainly because I field a lot of spearmen (army is loosly based on Republican Roman, but with Eagles), and if any change would make my army more effective it would be to enable me to get more units of Spear Elves in my front two lines - they always go into combat in pairs so the more I have the better.

I don't really care about special rules, although i would like it if they could have the "large shields" from WAB.

shadowprince
04-08-2006, 07:04
you obviolsy haven't played against high end gamers and powergamers. Or you are the Next Napolean Bonapart

Eldanar
04-08-2006, 14:21
I have been watching this poll since it came out because I was curious to see what people thought regarding this somewhat *touchy* issue.

I think what the problem may be, and in turn why the two options for the poll are so close from day to day, is that some units merely need a little tinkering: maybe a shave a point or two here, add an option there, etc.

Whereas some other units simply need to be reconsidered completely (Phoenix Guard, anyone? :rolleyes:)

Each option only addresses part of the problem, and applying only one of the two options ends up with half of the units fixed and the other half ridiculously over/under powered, etc.

shadowprince
04-08-2006, 20:46
very good point

Tobias
16-08-2006, 18:21
Stupid opponents. I'd do a combined charge on that unit as soon as I could if it were the only thing holding the flank of your army together, and the LSG aren't all that tough in the first place for what you're paying.


You know, it would be quite amusing to see how well your opponents in that tournament/campaign/whatever did against some serious powergamers. My bet would have the game ending in turn four, with the victory going to the powergamers every time.

You think I would let that happen those charges, no ;) And one of the players I faced is a player known in The Netherlands, for good palying and powergaming, kicked his **** ;)

LSG are holy

vampires are cool!
16-08-2006, 19:37
the HE problem is that you have to take a balanced army. now that does fit with the image of the HE but i do like a bit of variety in my opponants. i've fought over twenty games against 6 diffrent HE players and the only variations in the list were either archers [more less of] or a highborn or a wizard lord.
it does get woefuly sameish

English 2000
20-08-2006, 17:39
I think that the problem with HE is that it's much harder to put together a balanced list for a tourney/pick up game and still be competetive.

Let me explain, with my Vampire Counts, Brets, Beastmen, Slaanesh Daemons and (when I still had them) Greenskins I can always put together a well balanced list that will make a good showing of itself no matter what I'm up against.

With the High Elves I find that a lot harder, I think that's the reason we get so many All Cav or mostly Cav HE armies out there....it's simply the best way to make the army "work" consistently no matter what you're up against.

The 2k HE list I'm working with at the moment looks like this:

18 Spearmen, full command, war banner
18 Spearmen, full command
17 Sword Masters, full command, banner of sorcery
9 Silver Helms, full command, full equipment
2 Tiranoc Chariots
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
Mage, level 2, dispel scroll, seer
Mage, Level 2, dispel scroll, Ring of Fury
Commander, bsb, heavy armour, Lion Guard
Comander, barded steed, lance, heavy armour, enchanted shield

I like to think that it's not "sameish", however compared to the balanced lists for any of my other armies it's just nowhere near as competitive.

That I think is the problem, the list needs some tweaking to bring it back on par with the other armies.

but yes, most other HE lists I see are the cookie cutter Cavalry forces, and to be honest I can't blame HE players. It's simply the only route they can take and have a competetive force. I've tried numerous things with my HE and they just don't hold a candle to any of my other armies in comparison.

DeathMasterSnikch
20-08-2006, 18:00
I was surprised and entertained when I found that after I voted the results were 50% each. I think a mix of moth options will benefit the army but mainly a lower cost.

Tobias
20-08-2006, 20:34
@English, I think that is a very competative lsit that would even ebat the ehavy armies

A suggestionf rom me wuld be drop 5 swordmasters, drop the warbanner, drop the banner of sorcery, drop a scrol, drop the lion guard honour, but the commander on foot, and drop the banner from the silver helms, the banner on the swordmasters

Add: BSB on horse with uhh the banner of 80points(forgot the name), jewel of the dusk, radiom gem on the commander and give him a great weapon, eagles, and +1LD on swordmaster champ

Then you have 5 dd and 1 scroll which is better than 4 dd and 2 scrolls
8 PD and a ring which is better than 6pd+d3 and a ring
A very nasty siver helm unit
and an extra march blocker and a good flanking unit

English 2000
23-08-2006, 01:17
Thanks for the ideas Tobias,

I'm not sure how it will work out with my army and style of play though, Lion Guard is essential for keeping my main battle line in place and a big reason for taking 17 sword masters is is that it only takes one magic missile or war machine hit to completely negate a small high elf units' combat effectiveness. They are just sooooo fragile.

I'll toy with my list though and see how some of the changes you suggested work out. The +1 leadership item on a champion is something I've tended to overlook in the past due to the tendency of my opponents to issue challanges. However parhaps I'll put the Amulet of Purifying Flame on him instead, -3 to the casting roll of spells against this unit will help a great deal.

I'll try eagles in my next game for sure though.