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Bingo the Fun Monkey
22-07-2006, 10:21
I've been interested in starting an ogre kingdoms army. However, my main opponent is a bretonnian and, while winning isn't everything to me, losing regularly is simply not my cup of tea either. All I want to know is this: is it possible for an ogre army to convincingly defeat a Bretonnian army led by a shrewd general?
Normal Ogre Advantages:
Bull Charge: negated by the longer charge range of knights
Cause Fear: kind of nerfed by Ld8 knights and peasants, also, you're not going to outnumber most of the time.
Multiple Wounds and T4: Lances in lance formation make a mockery of this.
High Strength/Ogre Clubs: they're still saving on a 4+ most of the time and in the case of IGs they have a 5+ ward to boot.
Normal Bretonnian Weaknesses:
Not very maneuverable: granted, I believe a MSU ogre army can still control more areas of the battlefield.
Not very many models: well, ogre kingdoms tend to have fewer.
No Rank Bonus: the lance formation get more rank bonus than a big hefty unit of 8 ogres.

I'd imagine Maneaters, Gorgers, and gnoblar speedbumps will be necessary. I don't know what I would use as an anchor unit or how I can deploy counter assault units of Ironguts/Yhetti's. Anyways, I'm not asking for lists or tricks. I'm simply asking the Ogre vets out there: is it possible?

Neknoh
22-07-2006, 10:44
Simply hang out your Gnoblars to die, if 8 Chaos Warrior attacks per round is sufficient to chew down a unit of Bretonnians, so is 13 strength 4 Armourpiercing attacks + bullcharge.

If you manage to get your gnoblars to flee from the Bretonnian charges and have your Ogres in a fitting position behind them, you should be able to get the jump on the bretonnians, you could also aim for Overrunns from the Bretonnian side and/or pursuit moves.

Aim for his flanks, this is VERY important, if you manage to throw a Gorger/Maneater with Cathayan Longsword into the flank , things will get very nasty very quick.

Gnobblar Trappers are essential to marchblock the Bretonnians in the first turn of his. Also, Yetees are a must if this bretonnian dude fields a lot of Bowmen.

Latro
22-07-2006, 10:52
... in short:

You sacrifice part of your army (baiting, fleeing, diverting) to get his knights into a vulnerable position for your Ogres to charge. Don't try to go for big expensive "hard to break" anvil/anchor units to take the charge ... because they will most likely break.


:cool:

EvC
22-07-2006, 12:00
A Scraplauncher or two, with their S3 KILLING BLOW will make mincemeat of the large bunched-up Knights of Brettonia. Although that might count as a "trick", so solly!

Highborn
22-07-2006, 14:19
I might be wrong, but I thought OK had a special rule that they only needed 3 ogres per rank?

Not that it helps, the Lance's static combat res is insane for a heavy cavalry unit.

The only way to reliably beat Bretonnians is baiting them then flank charges. MSU works well, especially if you take the gnoblars to act as bait while ogres charge in and munch the Brets.

edit: Probably shouldn't say the 'only' way, but it's definitely my preferred way.

Neknoh
22-07-2006, 14:38
I almost forgot, remember that four Ogres are US 12, if you can get those into a flank, you'll dish out 12 attacks at strength four with Armourpiercing, and, unless six knights survive the onslaught, they will autobreak from fear

samw
22-07-2006, 14:39
A Scraplauncher or two, with their S3 KILLING BLOW will make mincemeat of the large bunched-up Knights of Brettonia. Although that might count as a "trick", so solly!

Not really. Even if you got an entire unit (9) you'd still have to wound (4.5) and then since they get armour and a 6 is by no means certain you may, or may not, kill one knight.

I never lost against my friend's ogre army with bretonnians. Ogres' strenth lies in their speed and toughness, and Brets are faster and harder. An Errant List seems designed to annihilate these guys (no fear check, st6 on the charge).

Latro
22-07-2006, 14:46
... I never lost against my friend's ogre army with bretonnians. Ogres' strenth lies in their speed and toughness, and Brets are faster and harder. An Errant List seems designed to annihilate these guys (no fear check, st6 on the charge).

That's why the Ogre player shouldn't rely on holding the Bretonnian charge, because it won't work. He should use expendable units to receive the charge, make sure that the results will put the knights in a good position to be charged themselves by the second line of Ogre combat units ... once they're in combat with the knights they should be fine.


:cool:

Goq Gar
22-07-2006, 17:38
My two friends ryan and chris have this same problem, Ryans ogres, chris is brettonians.

Chris tends to go for the cheesiest armies his little mind can create. Like massive units of cav in 500 pts with unbelievable stats, or the flying circus from hell.

His ogres have countered again and again however due to his extreme skill. And I mean his tactics frighten me when they work, seeing as half of the time they sound silly, but half of the time I can see the genius before it happens.

Examples: A unit of 50 gnoblars covering almost a third of the table width! He caused a massive bottleneck for chris's cavalry and his troops, his cav got stuck in the masses and a unit of leadbelchers homed in with 26 hits, and massacred the knights, going from 20 strong to 5 in a turn, and with one of his famous moves, a wall of ogre impacts knocked models off the table, and ripped his army apart. At first the army looked like a joke, but after his knights got stuck between a ton of meat bags, and the iron guts slammed into them, they found themselves a bit flatter than they were before.

Against bretonnians you just need to use the terrain to your advantage (And if you cant, a daunting wall of 100 sharp items to the face isnt a bad idea either).

IronBrother
22-07-2006, 18:59
Take big units of bulls and ironguts, with a character my three big units have unit strength 24. Put a unit right up front and then a strong flanker light yhetees , make them think long and hard about charging - because if they do not punch through the yhetees will take them out in the ensuing round of counter charging. I've been using this tactic against all sorts of cav - and it works, REALLY REALLY WELL. Ogres are fast, not faster than cav but do not underestimate them. Gnoblars are terrible and not worth taking the MSU as they bicker and block your army from doing what you want. I have comepletely abandoned those little things in my army.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
22-07-2006, 22:29
... in short:

You sacrifice part of your army (baiting, fleeing, diverting) to get his knights into a vulnerable position for your Ogres to charge. Don't try to go for big expensive "hard to break" anvil/anchor units to take the charge ... because they will most likely break.


:cool:

Well...that's exactly what I do with my O/G when I face this guy. Except sometimes I use a block of orc boyz to provide static CR on the bret overrun and counter charge on my turn with blorcs/boar boyz/boar chariots/savages.

Well, thanks for the feedback.

EvC
23-07-2006, 12:00
Not really. Even if you got an entire unit (9) you'd still have to wound (4.5) and then since they get armour and a 6 is by no means certain you may, or may not, kill one knight.

So you've got a good chance of killing one a turn from failing armour save and one from killing blow (Both chances are slightly more than 50%). 40 points of Brettonians a turn if you've got a good aim, though some luck is needed. But this is why I said one or two would be needed, concentrate fire, get three casualties in a turn (Or two on a unit of less than 9) and cause a panic test... but hey, this is all theoretical, I'm not saying it'll be a game-winner!

Dspankdo
23-07-2006, 13:38
give a tyrant the longstrider bigname, the bullgut, daemon killer scars and a great weapon. the tyrant can flank charge units by himself with his good movement, negate ranks with his unit strength 6 and brush aside armour with a collosal strength of 7

skavenguy13
24-07-2006, 14:20
I'd say you can win, but not by a big margin.
Basically, place gnoblars pretty much everywhere in front of your ogres. Lose the combat, then they get in contact with the ogres behind. In your turn, flank that unit with another ogre unit and you should win if you don't get horrific rolls. Your units don't need to be too big, remember you also need to wheel to flank-charge.

If you can do this all game long, you will lose all your gnoblars and possibly an ogre unit or two, and possibly some support units (like gorgers). So don't hope for a massacre.

ZomboCom
24-07-2006, 15:23
Gut magic is pretty essential for beating brets.

2 spells in particular well help. The +1 Toughness and Stubborn one will allow you to hold the charge, and the 2d6 S2 with no armour saves will happily kill a couple of knights a turn.

Cpt. Drill
24-07-2006, 16:11
Gut magic is pretty essential for beating brets.

2 spells in particular well help. The +1 Toughness and Stubborn one will allow you to hold the charge, and the 2d6 S2 with no armour saves will happily kill a couple of knights a turn.

Yeah thats the best thing you can do!

If not scrap launchers arnt bad shooting or chrging they will really boost combat res!

Or a tyrant with the tenderiser issueing challenges shoudl hopefully give you 6 combat res every single time!

vampires are cool!
24-07-2006, 22:53
....or you could fight fire with fire and take some rhinox cavelry