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Tyron
23-07-2006, 21:57
With their history of manipulating xenos to fight their wars for their own agenders. Why havent the Eldar tried to mind controll or steer the path for the orcs to unite together (or all attack similtaniously) the Imperium or any other race they want to destroy, through a chain of events.

Logically this would be the most viable option instead of sending their dying race to battle why not seek this plan?

Kamin_Majere
23-07-2006, 21:59
Supposedly thats why we had the war on Armegeddon.

Why let Gazkulls Waaagh hit a craft world when you can let them kill a bunch of Mon-keigh

Tyron
23-07-2006, 22:02
Yet the Eldar have been around for 60 million years, surely they would be sufficient enough to make the Orks (one of the less bright races in the galaxy) to rally together and wipe out the Imperium.

Kandarin
23-07-2006, 22:02
Logically this would be the most viable option instead of sending their dying race to battle why not seek this plan?

They do. The Eldar on the tabletop represent situations where this option is implausible or unavailable.

Tyron
23-07-2006, 22:05
I mean story wise. In 60 million years they should be able to manipulate anyone with the least military effort.

Kandarin
23-07-2006, 22:09
I mean story wise. In 60 million years they should be able to manipulate anyone with the least military effort.

They try. It doesn't always work. Also, in many cases said manipulation process involves Eldar shooting at/fighting alongside the race they're trying to manipulate.

Gotchaye
23-07-2006, 22:43
Why do you think they aren't doing that?

The Imperium performs a valuable service for the Eldar - it keeps Chaos in the Eye and generally keeps the Orks and Tyranids at bay. The Eldar have absolutely no reason to wish the Imperium's destruction and plenty of reason to help it out - there's every reason to think that they're one of the reasons why the Imperium hasn't completely fallen apart by now.

Who would the Eldar wield the Orks against? Sure, manipulation of a Waaagh caused Armageddon, but that was mostly an attempt to divert it away from a Craftworld; the fact that it ended up causing the Imperium a great deal of trouble was entirely incidental. The Eldar only really want to take out Chaos, the Necrons, and the Tyranids. The first two are fairly untouchable, and the Imperium already does a pretty good job on the Tyranids. There's no need for any more manipulation than what they already do.

Recent fluff seems to indicate that the Eldar are playing a deep game with the Tau, but that manipulation, if it exists, has yet to bear fruit. I think it's fairly plausible that the Eldar are grooming the Tau to take over from the Imperium, given that the Tau are easier to live with, easier to control, and easier to force aside after the birth of Ynnead.

As has been said, the Eldar only rarely fight - they simply can't afford it. However, the Eldar aren't as severely limited in numbers as a casual reading of the fluff would imply; it stands to reason that there are at least a hundred billion Eldar. A few engagements on the level of 40k are relatively unimportant, and the Eldar are a rare sight indeed on the BFG-scale. There's every reason to think that they do generally accomplish their objectives through manipulation, but they're just not obvious about it.

Inq. Veltane
23-07-2006, 22:44
Also why would the Eldar want to destroy the Imperium? The Imperium are, generally, not too hostile (they don't make much of an effort to actively hunt the eldar, only when the eldar invade Imperial worlds is there conflict really) and serve as a useful buffer against threats like the Tyranids. The Imperium needs to be steered of course, but destroyed? No. That would be bad for the eldar unless a 'better' alternative would rise to fill the void (and no race is as diversely spread as humanity).

Goq Gar
23-07-2006, 23:14
If all of the orks ever united and overthrew the imperium, they would be too strong for the eldar to cope with afterwards. If the imperium somehow won, the orks would subside long enough for the imperium to ahniahlate a few craft worlds before they rose to power again.

So basically, the eldar need them to cancel each other out.

Zzarchov
24-07-2006, 01:50
the Eldar have used the orks as a tool MANY times, one of the inquistor henchmen models is a Xenos who's homeworld was whiped out when the Eldar caused an Ork Waaagh to deflect a Tyranid hivefleet..which then whiped out their world.

Indrid Khold
24-07-2006, 03:02
Damn, that's how you KNOW you've got game, when you're smart enough to get Tyranids to fight Orks on the planet of a third species.

Who says the Eldar are sissies?

Khaine's Messenger
24-07-2006, 03:27
In 60 million years they should be able to manipulate anyone with the least military effort.

The problem, as it were, is that their "manipulations" have only been going on for a little over ten thousand years so far as we're aware. Yes, they had 60 million years to putz around, but a great deal of that time they spent recovering and conslidating their hold on their Empire the old fashioned way...even though, by the time of the Fall, it was disintegrating.

Also bear in mind that while the Eldar manipulate others, not all of their manipulations are orchestrated by the entire Eldar "power structure" and there have been cases where various craftworlds and Eldar individuals have come to blows over debates on just how to manipulate others and for what eventual purpose.

Kage2020
24-07-2006, 22:34
And, of course, if the Eldar started to engage in this type of activity then it might be difficult to slather on that "dying race" moniker that always gets bandied around when talking about them. :rolleyes:

Kage

Kandarin
25-07-2006, 01:37
Damn, that's how you KNOW you've got game, when you're smart enough to get Tyranids to fight Orks on the planet of a third species.

Who says the Eldar are sissies?

Am I the only one reading this and wondering why none of the craftworlds have gone over to Tzeentch?

Indrid Khold
25-07-2006, 02:07
Such precision manipulation of so many other cultures would require a manipulation of probability on par with Hari Seldon. It seems that entities devoted to ...er chaos wouldn't help out with that so much.

Ravenous
25-07-2006, 02:13
here is an odd question then.

what the hell were the eldar doing during the horus heresy?

(you know other then sitting back and enjoying the show)

Kage2020
25-07-2006, 02:32
Chips 'n' dip?

:rolleyes:

Kage

Gotchaye
25-07-2006, 02:55
If we're speculating, perhaps they intervened to make sure that it came out the way it did - the Emperor essentially useless, Chaos confined to the eye but still a force to be reckoned with, and the Imperium significantly weaker, no longer expanding, but still strong enough to hold the galaxy against all threats for the next 10,000 years.

Ravenous
25-07-2006, 02:58
that is actually completely viable

Ardathair
25-07-2006, 03:22
With their history of manipulating xenos to fight their wars for their own agenders. Why havent the Eldar tried to mind controll or steer the path for the orcs to unite together (or all attack similtaniously) the Imperium or any other race they want to destroy, through a chain of events.

Logically this would be the most viable option instead of sending their dying race to battle why not seek this plan?

Back to the original question.

In my opinion, there are a number of reasons:
1) Eldar can use psychic powers, more safely and powerfully in seeing the future than in direct intervention. Guide, Fortune, background; for Mind War, Eldrich Storm against.
2) Eldar psychers are called Seers.
3) As I recall from old background (will have to look up for specifics), many Eldar attacks were aimed at: weakening certain planets, diverting military and industrial resources, raising alertness/ preparedness; so that an attack from another race would have a different out come had not the Eldar interfered.

Application of military force is the manipulation I believe is refered to in much of the background, not a psychic, "do this," manipulation.

It is more complex, intelectual, and subtler than a simple, "I command you," approach; and in my opinion true manipulation.

Indrid Khold
25-07-2006, 03:36
here is an odd question then.

what the hell were the eldar doing during the horus heresy?

(you know other then sitting back and enjoying the show)


In the current codex, a captured Ranger says to a human of the Horus Heresy, "Your stupidity almost destroyed the galaxy, yet you never knew how close the forces of light were to our ultimate defeat."

This indicates to me that the Eldar were fighting for their lives as hard as everyone else. To me, the Heresy was not good to the Eldar in any way, shape, or form. Though I'm sure they weren't big fans of the pre-heresy Imperium, it was still a damn sight better than what we've got now.

Virus
25-07-2006, 09:43
Am I the only one reading this and wondering why none of the craftworlds have gone over to Tzeentch?

Since the fall the Eldar have been super vigilant and aware of the threat of Chaos. So it is rare, if not unhreard of for Craftworld Eldar to woship Chaos. If this happened they would be found out by the rest of the Craftworld and destroyed. Similar to the Eldar reaction to Genestealer Cults, from one short story I can't remember the name of, a radical Inquisitor who has ensalved a Eldar-Genestealer Hybrid says that Cults do not last long among the Eldar.

Commander Ozae
25-07-2006, 17:54
The eldar probably didn't do much during the Heresy. After the Fall which took place two centuries before the heresy it would be most logical for the eldar to be trying to regroup. If the humans were in the same situation they would have isolated themselves and started looking for other survivors to try and rebuild. I doubt they would have intervened to help the Imperium unless absolutely necessary, and since there are no recorded legends of the eldar helping the Imperium during the heresy i find it unlikely that they did. They probably were hiding under a rock afraid that one of the legions would arrive and destroy them.

Tyron
25-07-2006, 20:43
Seems like this thread took off. What I said was the Imperium or any other race. Seems like you guys bissed that bit :-P

Im suprised they dont use them to fight Chaos or the Necrons.

"o me, the Heresy was not good to the Eldar in any way, shape, or form."

Then why didnt they try to stop it with the collectove powers of their farseers? If whats his face could give Horus a vision of the future then surely the Eldar could have gave him one also to prevent the HH.

Indrid Khold
25-07-2006, 22:00
"Oh yes, us post-Fall remnants of the Eldar civilization will just get together in a Farseer knitting circle and ... you know ... take on the most powerful fighting force in the galaxy at the moment, who incidentally has the full scheming of Chaos undivided behind him."

Eh ... doesn't really work for me. ;) I'm sure they tried, and for an Eldar to actually deign to WARN a human that something bad is about to happen to him means that things were pretty desperate. And anyway, would Horus or the Emperor really trust a vision granted by xenos scum? THey might wonder for a moment, then dismiss it as a crafty alien trick to sow dissention among them. Heck, the Emperor didn't even believe it when his own son (Magnus) warned him about Horus.

And who knows, maybe the Eldar DID intervene, and stopped some loyalist Legions from falling, or from being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Commander Ozae
25-07-2006, 22:13
There is always the rumour that Eldrad Ulthran told the Emperor that the heresy was going to happen but that the Emperor disregarded him. The eldar probably did intervene but its unlikely that the Imperium would admit that they got help from foul xenos and the eldar would not have deployed a large force.

IJW
26-07-2006, 00:26
"He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife which would engulf us, just as it engulfed the rest of the galaxy, but your arrogance deafened you to his words."

'Nuff said.

Kage2020
26-07-2006, 01:25
If you're going to post something that smacks of a quote, perhaps a reference would be useful?

Kage

MrLiy
26-07-2006, 01:59
Hmm heres an idea....slap a bunch of bits and "metal pieces" to vypers and falcons, create some sort of orc masks.

Voila you have an eldar deceiver force.

"Who just attacked us???"
"Sir, by the looks of the vehicles I think it was orcs!!"

Sorry I couldnt resist

edit: come to think of it theres some catachans that paint themselves in green and use ork guns. It was in a WD article

GT Templar
26-07-2006, 02:03
"He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife which would engulf us, just as it engulfed the rest of the galaxy, but your arrogance deafened you to his words."

'Nuff said.

It's from the 3rd edition Eldar codex. It's the Ranger Interogation.

Indrid Khold
26-07-2006, 07:05
For the actual, verbatim quote (complete with reference), look up to my post at the top of page 3.

Wish folk would actually read threads before posting in them ...

Commander Ozae
26-07-2006, 13:54
Although the eldar disguising themselves as orks would be a good idea i doubt they would do it. Remember that the eldar are extremely arrogant and have disdain and contempt for all mon-keigh races, orks included. I don't think they would stoop to that level no matter the cost.

Virus
27-07-2006, 10:37
Mon-Keigh is the Eldar name for Humans, not a general term for inferior races.