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DeathlessDraich
24-07-2006, 15:37
If a Dwarven Master Engineer moves from a Cannon and joins a Bolt thrower, is the -1 penalty incurred when the Master Engineer shoots the Bolt thrower?

pg 124 Bolt Thrower: "... using the BS in the same way as bow shots ...The usual modifiers apply"

DW pg 38 Artillery Master : " If he joins a Bolt thrower you may use his BS"

Can a literal interpretation be used for the Artillery Master rule? Since he 'joins' a unit, he must have moved. No penalties are mentioned.

I'll surrender to a majority interpretation :)

Atrahasis
24-07-2006, 15:47
War Machines cannot fire if they or their crew move for any purpose other than to align with the target.

T10
24-07-2006, 16:08
Indeed. You either need to use the regular crew's BS, or you may not shoot at all.

It may perhaps be argued that since the Master Engineer is a part of the crew and has moved, the artillery piece may not fire at all, though that does sound overly contrived.

-T10

Nazreg Moonsinger
24-07-2006, 20:55
Think about ages old dwarf master engineer running towards war machine, wouldn't the war machine crew be bit distracted and maybe forgetting to fire the weapon on moment like that. :D

gortexgunnerson
24-07-2006, 23:09
As opposed to the all the artillery and weapons people are shooting at them, the magic explosions and mythical creature flying round. Yer I definately think their mate running up to me would off put them. :) lol just messing with you

The weapon can definately fire as the master engine can just join the machine and not be crew P118 BrB

"Characters do not actually beome crew when they join a war machine"

I would also say he doesn't count as crew for the purpose of using his master engineer skill.

P38 Dwarf book

Master engineer

"if he joins bolt thrower, you may use his BS"

Engineers

"if he part of a bolt thrower's crew you may use his BS" (Note the 3rd word 'is' is actually missing in my book lol)

This is further backed up by the 3 options for additional crew laid out on P39

A master engineers/engineers can;

1) act as crew
2) use their artillery master or specialist rules
3) Fire personal weaponary

In summary, I believe you can use his special ability on the turn he joins the artillery.

On the question of whether his movement creates an addition -1 to hit IMO is no as he is not firing the weapon and as stated earlier if it did count as moving it couldn't fire at all

ZomboCom
25-07-2006, 01:23
Warmachines cannot usually move and fire. Crew rejoined and abandoned warmachine cannot fire it that turn.

The master engineer would not be able to lend his BS on the turn he joined the bolt thrower.

gortexgunnerson
25-07-2006, 06:58
Warmachines cannot usually move and fire. Crew rejoined and abandoned warmachine cannot fire it that turn.

Agreed


The master engineer would not be able to lend his BS on the turn he joined the bolt thrower.

Disagree. The Master E is not crew when using his ability and therefore only needs to join the unit to lend his ability, read post 5 for more detail

Avian
25-07-2006, 09:53
Ditto the above. Characters explicitly do NOT become part of the crew even if they join the machine and since the machine can not fire if the crew has moved, it can fire if a character joins it.

Festus
25-07-2006, 10:35
Hi

Ditto the above. Characters explicitly do NOT become part of the crew even if they join the machine and since the machine can not fire if the crew has moved, it can fire if a character joins it.
Agreed as well.

The use of the ME's ability has nothing to with either the WM or the Crew, as he only joins, but neither is crew nor the WM itself.

Imagine the ME coming up to the machine shouting: *A wee bit more to tah' right, lads!* or *Nah, you'll need another bit o'powder in tah' barrel!*
and the crew bows to the unsurpassed expertise of the old ME.

Age, Wealth, and Skill. That's where it matters :D

Greetings
FEstus

gukal
25-07-2006, 13:40
I agree with Gortexgunnerson, Avian, Festus et al. There is no penalty for the Master Engineer's movement.

The fact that the Master Engineer doesn't join the crew (and therefore his movement doesn't impose any penalties) is supported by and consistent with the now revealed Dwarf Q&A which disallows the use of the Master Engineer's Rune of Luck to re-roll the war machines hits and wounds. He is not pulling the trigger.

That hurts. I was looking forward to re-rolling the occassional miss with the bolt thrower.

- Gukal

DeathlessDraich
25-07-2006, 13:53
Thank you for the replies.

A consensus more or less.

A Master Engineer's BS is not altered by joining warmachines e.g. a bolt thrower, even if he marched:eek: , provided the warmachine still has some crew to do the actual shooting!
An Engineer, however is part of the crew and cannot move and shoot.

I can now inform the dwarf player that his tactic of shuttling the Master Engineer between war machines will work well.

Incidentally, while reading the rules, I noticed a small part which I wasn't aware of and never seen being properly adhered to:

"A warmachine's movement is proportionally reduced as it loses crew".
Anyone seen this being used correctly?

Avian
25-07-2006, 14:06
"A warmachine's movement is proportionally reduced as it loses crew".
Anyone seen this being used correctly?
Well, war machines don't tend to move much anyway (though I personally use the opportunity to move them if they should be unable to fire for a turn due to a misfire result).

Festus
25-07-2006, 17:58
Hi

I personally use the opportunity to move them if they should be unable to fire for a turn due to a misfire result.
Don't you think it should stack like other *no shooting circumstances* (loss of crew and misfire result for example)?

So that you may not shoot for a turn in which you were able to shoot?

Greetings
Festus

xmbk
25-07-2006, 19:08
the now revealed Dwarf Q&A
- Gukal

Where has this been revealed?

Festus
25-07-2006, 19:46
Where has this been revealed?

Here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/dwarfs.pdf

Avian
26-07-2006, 08:56
Don't you think it should stack like other *no shooting circumstances* (loss of crew and misfire result for example)?

So that you may not shoot for a turn in which you were able to shoot?
That could certainly be argued, though it has never been argued by me. :p

mageith
26-07-2006, 14:14
War Machines cannot fire if they or their crew move for any purpose other than to align with the target.
:) That's characteristically generous of you to allow the crew to move to align with the target.

"A player may freely pivot a war machine to face any direction he likes before shooting. Apart from this, a war machine or crew many not move and fire." (118)

We allow it too.

Mage Ith