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Twisted Ferret
27-07-2006, 03:38
Well, I just won about the only Warhammer game that I've ever won. I was using my friend's Tomb Kings army, and I think the main cause of my victory was my Liche Priests' awesome performance in the Magic phase. If you weren't aware, they use a slightly different system... instead of power dice, each Liche Priest gets two dice per spell and two spells per turn. They're also unable to miscast.

Anyway, when using Empire wizards I was always pretty useless in the Magic phase - even when taking the most magic-heavy list feasible. I'm a total n00b at Warhammer the game, so I guess my question is... can I replicate this success with a Skaven or Tzeentch-themed Chaos army, or is it more likely a function of the Tomb King system? I like the Tomb Kings, but I also really want to try a Skaven or Tzeentchish army... but I'm also worried that I'll end up doing the same thing with my wizards as I do when playing Empire: that is, nothing. Can the Skaven and the devotees of Tzeentch dish out the magical ownage as well?

ebolatheripe
27-07-2006, 04:14
You can't do exactly the same with either of those armies, but a Tzeenchian army with a Lord with the Staff of Tzeench would be the closest thing and the best wizard/killy choice in the game. If he does nothing all game you aren't trying, because he is so versatile. Just give him your choice of mount and he should have a huge impact on your games.

That being said, your play style may dictate your success with your chosen army more than the armies strengths and weaknesses. Tomb kings may just be an army that fits your style of play.

whiteshields1830
27-07-2006, 04:53
Hell yea, my daemonic legion list has 12 powerdice and 8 dispel dice in 2000pts (lvl4 daemon prince, 2 lvl2 heralds on disc and 2 lvl1 horror champs). Dont forget the 2 bound spells from the horrors.

It can easily dissipate a tomb king magic heavy army in the magic phase ( essentially 4 power dice for high liche, 4 powerdice for the 2 liche and maybe another 1 for the tomb prince, total of 9 powerdice). Although bound spells might become a pain.




Tzeentch magic is overated, but its still one of the best out there. Most of the magic is aggressive and is there to put heavy damage/pain to your enemy.

Skaven magic is nasty, but its more of spells enhancing your own troops, whilst skitterleap is just plain annoying/effective.

Twisted Ferret
27-07-2006, 06:35
You can't do exactly the same with either of those armies, but a Tzeenchian army with a Lord with the Staff of Tzeench would be the closest thing and the best wizard/killy choice in the game. If he does nothing all game you aren't trying, because he is so versatile. Just give him your choice of mount and he should have a huge impact on your games.

That being said, your play style may dictate your success with your chosen army more than the armies strengths and weaknesses. Tomb kings may just be an army that fits your style of play.
Hmm, that could be. Thanks for the advice; I will keep it in mind. It's good to know that I can be a magic-killy Chaos army :D (I was worried Tzeentch in Warhammer would be a bit like Tzeentch in 40K - i.e., waaaay underpowered).


Hell yea, my daemonic legion list has 12 powerdice and 8 dispel dice in 2000pts (lvl4 daemon prince, 2 lvl2 heralds on disc and 2 lvl1 horror champs). Dont forget the 2 bound spells from the horrors.

It can easily dissipate a tomb king magic heavy army in the magic phase ( essentially 4 power dice for high liche, 4 powerdice for the 2 liche and maybe another 1 for the tomb prince, total of 9 powerdice). Although bound spells might become a pain.
Wow, awesome. :D Though that was another thing I loved about my Tomb Kings army - the bound spells. They wreaked havoc. Can only Tomb Kings get them? Is it an uniquely Khemri thing?


Tzeentch magic is overated, but its still one of the best out there. Most of the magic is aggressive and is there to put heavy damage/pain to your enemy.

Skaven magic is nasty, but its more of spells enhancing your own troops, whilst skitterleap is just plain annoying/effective.
Ah, I see. Skaven magic doesn't sound like my sort of thing, then - I prefer offensive, killy spells. :D

whiteshields1830
27-07-2006, 06:57
Wow, awesome. :D Though that was another thing I loved about my Tomb Kings army - the bound spells. They wreaked havoc. Can only Tomb Kings get them? Is it an uniquely Khemri thing?


Ah, I see. Skaven magic doesn't sound like my sort of thing, then - I prefer offensive, killy spells. :D

All armies have bound spells, but they arent hard to be dispelled, however, it might draw out your opponents dispel dice. (although tzeentch horror unit bound spells will most likely draw 2 dispel dice as oppose to your usual 1...:D ). Bound spells mean that particular spell is automatically cast.

Tzeentch magic is quite killy. You got 2 different magic missiles each doing various amounts of damage (and especially devastating when you roll Strength 6 or 7). You also have a spell that turns your opponents guys to horrors, making another horror unit for you. Theres another spell that makes your opponents guys attack themselves.

Overall quite offensive. Defensive spells are increasing your ward save and reroll to your armour/to wounds.

Three Headed Monkey
27-07-2006, 07:09
Hold on, skaven magic is very killy. It has plague (which can be one of the most distructive spells in the game), warp lightning and vermintide, plus the Storm Daemon bound spell giving you bound warp lightning. Sure it has enhancing stuff too, but only Lore of Fire has full offence!

Also, Tomb Kings magic is almost all about enhancing your troops. Extra movement, extra shooting and extra attacks. There is only one magic missle and that is a 18", and isnt all that powerful. Tomb kings magic's power lies in its relentlessness, you will never fail to cast, or miscast, and you never roll any bad spells. The success of the army depends on the interaction between

Tate
27-07-2006, 07:23
At the risk of repeating what was said earlier, here goes.

Skaven magic is powerful but risky. Your warlocks will usually die before the game is over. In the new edition of warhammer with the harsher miscast table they will die even more. Grey seers will only be able to cast 1-2 spells per turn unless you take the bell (2500 pt game is the smallest that it is realisitic in) and it will be risking many more points to the harsh miscast table. But that isnt until Sept.

Tzeentch magic is also MM oriented but their best spell is Orange Fire. Rerolling hit, wounds, armor and ward saves is outstanding. With tzeentch casters you pay extra for their combat abilities, so you may as well use them in combat. In the new edition not pooling dice will hurt a bit (unless you mark a bunch of chariots, knights, warriors, and minos) and the mistcast table wont matter much because if you want to spend 500 pts for a lord you will give him the staff of change.

Tomb King magic never miscasts and never fails, therfore you will force opponents to use dice faster even to stop a spell on power level 2-3. Their magic is support oriented and the liches are very slow so you need to position everything well. The new edition will see increased effectiveness because of not miscasting. It is also anticipated that there will be less magic defense in 7th ed, so more spells make it through. However, hiding your liches will be harder without the targeting restrictions we have now.

That being said, congrats on winning with TK. They are generaly considered one of the tougher armies to play even though they have the fear crutch.

Tzeentch magic

Latro
27-07-2006, 07:46
It can easily dissipate a tomb king magic heavy army in the magic phase ( essentially 4 power dice for high liche, 4 powerdice for the 2 liche and maybe another 1 for the tomb prince, total of 9 powerdice). Although bound spells might become a pain.


Just hypothetically of course, but a truely magic heavy Tomb King army could dish out a bit more magical power than that:

Characters:

High Priest: 2x a 3d6 bound spell
2 Priests: 2x a 2d6 bound spell
Tomb Prince: a 1d6 bound spell

Items:

Casket of Souls: a 2d6 bound spell (though technically an upgrade)
Staff of Ravening: power lvl 4 bound spell
Hieratic Jar: gives the character an extra incantation
Banner of the Undying Legion: power lvl 3 bound spell

That's 13 dice of incantations and two normal bound spells each turn and one turn with one axtra incantation ... though loading up on that much magic might not be the best idea.

The real strength of their incantations lies in the fact that they just keep coming. Against normal magic you would probably allow a few weak spells to go off (low strength magic missiles and such) and make sure that one game-breaking spell (extra movement and such) will be dispelled ... job well done! Against Tomb Kings you will see that same deciding spell (movement anybody?) coming again and again and again until it finally succeeds.

... a magic heavy Tomb King army is a lot harder to deal with than a magic heavy Tzeench army. (IMHO of course)


:cool:

whiteshields1830
27-07-2006, 08:32
Just hypothetically of course, but a truely magic heavy Tomb King army could dish out a bit more magical power than that:

Characters:

High Priest: 2x a 3d6 bound spell
2 Priests: 2x a 2d6 bound spell
Tomb Prince: a 1d6 bound spell

Items:

Casket of Souls: a 2d6 bound spell (though technically an upgrade)
Staff of Ravening: power lvl 4 bound spell
Hieratic Jar: gives the character an extra incantation
Banner of the Undying Legion: power lvl 3 bound spell

That's 13 dice of incantations and two normal bound spells each turn and one turn with one axtra incantation ... though loading up on that much magic might not be the best idea.



Again as you suggested, this was hypothetical. Im sure players wont use that much magic in 2000pts. Although at least 2500pts is where this can be possible (and might be very effective at 3000pts).

But the essential fact im putting out is that 12 powerdice and 2 lvl 6+ bound spells (well lvl 7 for my horror units) in a 2000pt army. HOwever, whereas if you applied those things you listed into a army, i doubt it will conquer anything outside the magic phase and possible the shooting phase (as youll soon struggle with the cc phase).

Im not saying that Tzeentch DL is the way to go, but what im saying is, yes, TK have a huge magic potential, but wont work until much larger games, even then, the casters (priests) are so fragile that if you make a slightest mistake then its death to them.


As Tate wrote, skaven magic is pretty good, although you wont generate huge powerdice numbers like TK and tzeentch. But if plague goes off however, that would be game changing.

Voltaire
27-07-2006, 09:49
I would like to comment somewhat n the use of Tzeentch Magick since its the only area I am remotely qualified to speak about at this moment in time.

Tzeentch magic is the most devestating in the Chaos book and has the ability to overwhelm just about every army. I think I'll do a low down of it spell by spell;

Red Fire of Alteration:
A basic magic missile, variable in damage and in potency. Its saving grace is its 30" range whic means it will be effective against many of the enemies units, especially flnnking skirmishers, fast cavalry and flyers - units where the enemy toughness is going to be lower and saves are going to be minimal. This spells biggest pro is that it is the first on the tzeentch list meaning you can alwaystake it.

Orange fire of Transition
The most powerful spell on the list also comes with a pro - you get something decent for rolling a 1 on the magic table!
This spell being a 'remains in play' can give you access to the biggest combat monster in the game. Imagine being able to re-roll virtually every one of your dice! good ay? Now imagine this on a tzeentch Lord with his high strength and WS? The relatively low casting value also means it is going to be a good spell for level 2 wizards to take.

Yellow Fire of Transformation
In my opinion this spell can be the saving grace for a daemon army. The ability to have a full ward save is going to be a big pro for any units of daemons fighting against missile heavy armies. The additional surviveability and the relatively low casting value make it another good spell for lower level wizards.

Green Fire of Mutation
This spell in perhaps the most subtlely destructive one in the Tzeentch arsenal. This spell will be excellent when cast at any unit in the game that has a low toughness but high strength, simply because there is a guarantee to be some sort of casualty from this spell, and thus a panic test. This also makes it a great spell for fighting against horde enemies. If a skaven clanrat unit attacks itself with 30 attacks, then a lot of rats will die and a tzeentch wizard will be grinning from ear to ear. This is the spell I hope to roll if I use my Chaos as tzeentch.

Blue Fire of Metamorphosis
Everything that you can say about Red Fire appies to Blue Fire, except Blue Fire has a much shorter range. Perhaps the weakest spell on the list, unless you're using a very mobile army.

Indigo Fire of Change
This spell is perhaps only second to Green Fire in its usefulness, though this one is going to be a little less 'all round' than Green Fire. Using this spell against horde enemies is going to be your biggest strength. Using it against the biggest enemy unit in sight, use this spell and watch and laugh as the enemy unit suddenly finds itself under bombardment from a fresh unit of horrors. This spell is a really tactical spell in that it can prevent a vital enemy charge at just the right moment and delay them long enough for you to deal with the horde.
This is definitely a higher level spell though as lower level mages will have problems with its 11+ casting value.

Violet Fire
The most redundant spell on the list. This spell is only good if you are using a Lord who is mounted, has a lot of dice to spare and is against a foe with no scrolls and few dispel dice left. Even then, this spell is best used against enemy mages or low leadership characters (Such as goblins and perhaps Skaven). Its higher casting value means it is only going to be useful if a Lord rolls it, even then, I would swap it for Red Fire.


Following on from this, there are another few things you might like to consider when using a Tzeentch army. For example, the only tzeentch specific banner in the army is a bound spell, and considering two of the Chaos banners are bound spells, this maks their magic phase even more potentially devestating.
Units of horrors only really add to this effectiveness, especially when used in large blocks or several smaller blocks. This means you can launch even more out in your magic phase. The Horrors spells also seem to favour a bigger unit because the bigger the unit, the more potential damage can be done. Though expensive in points, it may be a must in a magic heavy army.

For equipment, Tzeentch is somewhat lacking in the 'bound' department but more than makes up for it in the supplementary sense. Staff of Change for example can turn your spells into higher casting values and avoid those all horrific Miscasts, while putting your Lord on a Disk suddenly become a viable option as you use the Golden Eye of Tzeentch to get a wonderful 3+ ward save against missiles of any form.

Daemonically, Tzeentch equipment only gets better again. Tzeentchs Will is a must for a magic reliant daemon price and once again allows you to miss those miscasts that can cause so much trouble, especially in the revised edition of Warhammer. The other choices on this list only supplement it, though I would be weary of using Power Vortex unless you were planning something pivotal to the battle using a mass of power dice.

The Mark of Tzeentch only concretes the Lord of Changes supremacy in the magic phase as it is entirely possible to generate an extra 5 dice for your magic phase at only 100 points in cost (and the 5 units, of course).

A special mention goes to the Spawn of Tzeentch who, while not being magical, has got a wonderful breath weapon that can turn the tide of combat for him against bigger units of low toughness foes.

I hope that helps :-)

Twisted Ferret
27-07-2006, 20:10
Thanks all for the replies and advice!



Tomb kings magic's power lies in its relentlessness, you will never fail to cast, or miscast, and you never roll any bad spells.

The real strength of their incantations lies in the fact that they just keep coming. Against normal magic you would probably allow a few weak spells to go off (low strength magic missiles and such) and make sure that one game-breaking spell (extra movement and such) will be dispelled ... job well done! Against Tomb Kings you will see that same deciding spell (movement anybody?) coming again and again and again until it finally succeeds.

... a magic heavy Tomb King army is a lot harder to deal with than a magic heavy Tzeench army. (IMHO of course)
This is what I love about the Tomb Kings! I knew I was forgetting something in my original post's description of TK magic. That's what I hate about normal-style magic - too many chances for failure. Even assuming you make it into the game with good spells, manage to avoid a miscast, and manage to actually roll the required score, your opponent will still just roll some Dispel dice and that's it for that magic phase. With Tomb Kings, it wasn't so much that they have really good spells as that I actually managed to cast what they do have! Every magic phase, it was spell after spell after spell flung my opponent's way... he just couldn't handle it all, even with the same number of magic-users that I had! In fact, he had a Warrior Priest as well - giving him even more Dispel dice... but his mages were still useless compared to my Liche Priests.

Man, this has just about convinced me to go out and buy a buncha skeletons. :D


Skaven magic is powerful but risky. Your warlocks will usually die before the game is over. In the new edition of warhammer with the harsher miscast table they will die even more. Grey seers will only be able to cast 1-2 spells per turn unless you take the bell (2500 pt game is the smallest that it is realisitic in) and it will be risking many more points to the harsh miscast table. But that isnt until Sept.
Well, considering my luck with dice... I think I'll pass on the Skaven. :p


In the new edition not pooling dice will hurt a bit (unless you mark a bunch of chariots, knights, warriors, and minos) and the mistcast table wont matter much because if you want to spend 500 pts for a lord you will give him the staff of change.
Wait, what do you mean? What does the new edition change, magic-wise?

And is it too early to buy a Chaos army book? My friend already has a TK book so I don't have to worry about that, but I don't want to buy an army book only to have it become obsolete a few months later... :eek:


That being said, congrats on winning with TK. They are generaly considered one of the tougher armies to play even though they have the fear crutch.
Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks! =D


Im not saying that Tzeentch DL is the way to go
Hmm... will a mortal Tzeentch army also be powerful magic-wise? The background I had in mind fits better with mortals, but I'm not adverse to demons if needed. :D

Twisted Ferret
27-07-2006, 20:18
Tzeentch magic is the most devestating in the Chaos book and has the ability to overwhelm just about every army. I think I'll do a low down of it spell by spell
That sounds rather enticing :D I appreciate the effort!



Red Fire of Alteration:
A basic magic missile, variable in damage and in potency. Its saving grace is its 30" range whic means it will be effective against many of the enemies units, especially flnnking skirmishers, fast cavalry and flyers - units where the enemy toughness is going to be lower and saves are going to be minimal. This spells biggest pro is that it is the first on the tzeentch list meaning you can alwaystake it.

Orange fire of Transition
The most powerful spell on the list also comes with a pro - you get something decent for rolling a 1 on the magic table!
This spell being a 'remains in play' can give you access to the biggest combat monster in the game. Imagine being able to re-roll virtually every one of your dice! good ay? Now imagine this on a tzeentch Lord with his high strength and WS? The relatively low casting value also means it is going to be a good spell for level 2 wizards to take.

Yellow Fire of Transformation
In my opinion this spell can be the saving grace for a daemon army. The ability to have a full ward save is going to be a big pro for any units of daemons fighting against missile heavy armies. The additional surviveability and the relatively low casting value make it another good spell for lower level wizards.

Green Fire of Mutation
This spell in perhaps the most subtlely destructive one in the Tzeentch arsenal. This spell will be excellent when cast at any unit in the game that has a low toughness but high strength, simply because there is a guarantee to be some sort of casualty from this spell, and thus a panic test. This also makes it a great spell for fighting against horde enemies. If a skaven clanrat unit attacks itself with 30 attacks, then a lot of rats will die and a tzeentch wizard will be grinning from ear to ear. This is the spell I hope to roll if I use my Chaos as tzeentch.

Blue Fire of Metamorphosis
Everything that you can say about Red Fire appies to Blue Fire, except Blue Fire has a much shorter range. Perhaps the weakest spell on the list, unless you're using a very mobile army.

Indigo Fire of Change
This spell is perhaps only second to Green Fire in its usefulness, though this one is going to be a little less 'all round' than Green Fire. Using this spell against horde enemies is going to be your biggest strength. Using it against the biggest enemy unit in sight, use this spell and watch and laugh as the enemy unit suddenly finds itself under bombardment from a fresh unit of horrors. This spell is a really tactical spell in that it can prevent a vital enemy charge at just the right moment and delay them long enough for you to deal with the horde.
This is definitely a higher level spell though as lower level mages will have problems with its 11+ casting value.

Violet Fire
The most redundant spell on the list. This spell is only good if you are using a Lord who is mounted, has a lot of dice to spare and is against a foe with no scrolls and few dispel dice left. Even then, this spell is best used against enemy mages or low leadership characters (Such as goblins and perhaps Skaven). Its higher casting value means it is only going to be useful if a Lord rolls it, even then, I would swap it for Red Fire.

Impressive, to say the least... makes my Tomb King spells seems like silly cantrips in comparison!

Then again, though, I can just see myself rolling myself Blue and Violet Fire, miscasting every other turn, failing to make the casting roll on 1/2 of the remaining occasions, and just getting my spell dispelled every other time. :mad: :p


Following on from this, there are another few things you might like to consider when using a Tzeentch army. For example, the only tzeentch specific banner in the army is a bound spell, and considering two of the Chaos banners are bound spells, this maks their magic phase even more potentially devestating.
Units of horrors only really add to this effectiveness, especially when used in large blocks or several smaller blocks. This means you can launch even more out in your magic phase. The Horrors spells also seem to favour a bigger unit because the bigger the unit, the more potential damage can be done. Though expensive in points, it may be a must in a magic heavy army.

For equipment, Tzeentch is somewhat lacking in the 'bound' department but more than makes up for it in the supplementary sense. Staff of Change for example can turn your spells into higher casting values and avoid those all horrific Miscasts, while putting your Lord on a Disk suddenly become a viable option as you use the Golden Eye of Tzeentch to get a wonderful 3+ ward save against missiles of any form.

Daemonically, Tzeentch equipment only gets better again. Tzeentchs Will is a must for a magic reliant daemon price and once again allows you to miss those miscasts that can cause so much trouble, especially in the revised edition of Warhammer. The other choices on this list only supplement it, though I would be weary of using Power Vortex unless you were planning something pivotal to the battle using a mass of power dice.

The Mark of Tzeentch only concretes the Lord of Changes supremacy in the magic phase as it is entirely possible to generate an extra 5 dice for your magic phase at only 100 points in cost (and the 5 units, of course).

A special mention goes to the Spawn of Tzeentch who, while not being magical, has got a wonderful breath weapon that can turn the tide of combat for him against bigger units of low toughness foes.

I hope that helps
Damn, that is impressive. Thanks a lot for bothering to type it all out! :D It's definitely helped; it's cemented my decision to buy a Chaos army book, for one. Heck, I might end up building both a TK and a Tzeentch Chaos army!

Bloodknight
27-07-2006, 20:22
I think you were mistaken. Liche priests cast only one spell with 2D6 per magic phase, not two spells. If you played two spells per phase then itīs not a wonder that they ruled the table ;).

Voltaire
27-07-2006, 20:50
Something to consider is that you can avoid miscasts with the 'Staff of Tzeentch' or 'Tzeentchs Wil'l and with four spells to roll then the ability to swap one for a guarenteed missile. On Daemon Princes you can get a 5 in 6 chance of getting the good ones then avoid miscasts, when you get 'Tzeentchs Will' and 'Master of Sorcery' then enough points left to get 'Master of Mortals'. Its a surefire combat and magical monster but is very heavy points wise.

Twisted Ferret
27-07-2006, 22:03
I think you were mistaken. Liche priests cast only one spell with 2D6 per magic phase, not two spells. If you played two spells per phase then itīs not a wonder that they ruled the table ;).
...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Twisted_Ferret/bah.png

:(

whiteshields1830
27-07-2006, 23:26
Hmm... will a mortal Tzeentch army also be powerful magic-wise? The background I had in mind fits better with mortals, but I'm not adverse to demons if needed. :D


magic wont be as powerful, although the close combat phase wont be your worst case scenario. In a tzeentch DL, they will rule the magic phase, but will mainly get stomped on in cc (that is if the enemy ever reaches there, or if the enemy can even catch us). The low-average weapon skill, strength and toughness of your main units (horrors, flamers, screamers) will hurt you when close combat comes (usually on turn 4). However, its your main aim to avoid cc, and magic/shoot the units to death. In my magic phase i use the bound spells first (usually drawing out 0-4 dispel dice from the opponents depending on the spell). Then the 12 powerdice, casted by my 2 heralds and 1 DP. Then the shooting, my 6 flamers have 6 d6 shots into units at S3 (average i get around 20-24 shots). Then my 4 changebringers have 4 d6 shots (average of about 13-16 shots).

Much more devastating than mortals in the shooting and magic phase. However, a major drawback is once you opponents declare charges, youve got yourself into a very tight situation (unless youve wittle most units to 30-50% of their starting strength). Whereas mortals can last the cc aspect of it.

Bloodknight
27-07-2006, 23:30
Sorry ;).
TK magic is still good with one spell per Liche per turn, don´t worry. You should however tell your friend to re-read the magic rules in the TK book if he plays them with two spells, too. Only Kings and Liche High priests can cast twice per turn, with 1D6 respectively 3D6 each.

Twisted Ferret
28-07-2006, 05:42
Sorry ;).
TK magic is still good with one spell per Liche per turn, donīt worry. You should however tell your friend to re-read the magic rules in the TK book if he plays them with two spells, too. Only Kings and Liche High priests can cast twice per turn, with 1D6 respectively 3D6 each.
Yeah, he's the one who told me that they got two spells... I guess he misread it to mean that all Liche Priests get two spells per turn. Hey, he had the army book... I didn't think to doubt him!

Twisted Ferret
28-07-2006, 05:43
Something to consider is that you can avoid miscasts with the 'Staff of Tzeentch' or 'Tzeentchs Wil'l and with four spells to roll then the ability to swap one for a guarenteed missile. On Daemon Princes you can get a 5 in 6 chance of getting the good ones then avoid miscasts, when you get 'Tzeentchs Will' and 'Master of Sorcery' then enough points left to get 'Master of Mortals'. Its a surefire combat and magical monster but is very heavy points wise.
Oh, neat. That removes one of my greatest worries. :D


magic wont be as powerful, although the close combat phase wont be your worst case scenario. In a tzeentch DL, they will rule the magic phase, but will mainly get stomped on in cc (that is if the enemy ever reaches there, or if the enemy can even catch us). The low-average weapon skill, strength and toughness of your main units (horrors, flamers, screamers) will hurt you when close combat comes (usually on turn 4). However, its your main aim to avoid cc, and magic/shoot the units to death. In my magic phase i use the bound spells first (usually drawing out 0-4 dispel dice from the opponents depending on the spell). Then the 12 powerdice, casted by my 2 heralds and 1 DP. Then the shooting, my 6 flamers have 6 d6 shots into units at S3 (average i get around 20-24 shots). Then my 4 changebringers have 4 d6 shots (average of about 13-16 shots).

Much more devastating than mortals in the shooting and magic phase. However, a major drawback is once you opponents declare charges, youve got yourself into a very tight situation (unless youve wittle most units to 30-50% of their starting strength). Whereas mortals can last the cc aspect of it.
Yeah, it does sound a lot better. Hmm... but I like the mortal models more... well, I'll get the army book and see. :D Thanks for the advice :)

ebolatheripe
28-07-2006, 06:06
Just a thought.

If you like using magic so much, you may want to find out about a Lizard Man army. There Slan mages are considered by many to be the most powerful in the game. Although I couldn't tell you much about them, maybe someone else could elaborate about there strengths and weaknesses.

Bloodknight
28-07-2006, 10:35
Maybe you should try Necrarch Vampire Counts, they´re also very magic heavy and VC have one of the best lores in the game.

Twisted Ferret
28-07-2006, 23:44
Just a thought.

If you like using magic so much, you may want to find out about a Lizard Man army. There Slan mages are considered by many to be the most powerful in the game. Although I couldn't tell you much about them, maybe someone else could elaborate about there strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, magic has always been my favorite. I'm always a mage in RPGs etc. :D But anyway, Lizardmen were actually the first army I looked into - for just that reason. Slann are, I agree, the most awesome magic-users in the game... but besides the Slann, I just don't like the Lizardman army list. They have a good background, and they're incredibly mighty - but for the most part, I found that I didn't like the models or really any other units except the Slann. Thanks for the advice, though! :D


Maybe you should try Necrarch Vampire Counts, theyīre also very magic heavy and VC have one of the best lores in the game.
Hmm... I was considering a VC army, but I thought they were all combat-oriented. Can anyone elaborate on a Necrarch list's strengths and weaknesses? Or maybe I should make a new thread...

Voltaire
29-07-2006, 10:07
Aha, I shall list some strengths and weaknesses of the Necrach for you. I'll start with the Cons then go for the Pro's.

Cons

Low Weapon Skill;
Necrachs reduce their WS by 2, simply because they are Necrachs. They are vulnerable by nature and aren't going to be going head to head with many other Lords in a hurry.

Fragile;
As fragile as an undead army can be, with its Necromancer general rule, the Necrach is going to be particularly like this because they will be much more reliant on their troops than on themselves. Relying totally on zombies is not something I personally believe a VC player should be doing.

Miscasting;
In the updated edition of Warhammer, a miscast could cost your mage their life. On a VC General, or Magic heavy army, this is simply unacceptable, especially seeing as it is one of the near guarenteed ways of losing your general in the first turn of the game.

Pro's

Magic!
I'm pretty sure theres a combination of bloodlines and items that means you have the full 6 spells from the VC list available to you, but only if you take a VC Lord. This couped with their natural ability to use magic well means they are going to be a force to be reckoned with in the magic phase.

Cheap
The Necrach list, again if I recall correctly, can get zombies and skeletons for cheaper than everyone else. This means their army is going to have more of a horde feel to it than say, the martial prowess of a Blood Dragon.

No Necromancers
Someone probably just said 'Why is that an advantage' - the answer i quite simple. Necrachs being the natural wizards that they are means you can free up spots they would have taken with something a bit more useful like a Wight Lord for your Black Knights or some more Vampire Thralls.

Zombie Dragons
To make up for the lack of combat power, necrachs can use a Zombie Dragon as a unit (Again, if I recall correctly, I havent got my VC book to hand). This means they are going to be taking a flying terror causing monster and they don't have to mount their Lord on it - nifty eh?

The spells themselves have their advantages. The usual 'Invocation-Dance Maccabre' combination is good on most people, and 'Curse of Years' is a fantastic spell too. I was originally going to do VC as my Fantasy army, but decided against it simply because I can't paint zombies.

Three Headed Monkey
29-07-2006, 15:05
Many of the above pro's and cons is using the back of the book appendix list for the Necrach. Keep in mind that it is not an official list. And if you use the normal list you can take Necromancers, zombies and skeletons are not cheaper and you cannot take a dragon by itself. Although apart from that you summed up the traits of a Necrach quite well, Voltair.

Using the main list, well it really depends. You can go on a Zombie heavy summoner army, or a more elitish combat army (which doesnt suit the Necrach mentality all that much but it can be done) to a nice mix.

As mentioned above, the Necrach, although a Vampire, is not an awesome combat monster, so many other lord choices will have no trouble dispatching him. However, slaughting hapless troops still works well and is all you really need. Combat resolution is the key.

Plus you have a powerful wizard. +1 to cast and can take a selection of nifty bloodline powers. One to up your level, another to add range to spells, add powerdice, add a spell, reroll on the miscast table, or add D3 to the number of troops raised etc. A very good selection. But you will not get the number of powerdice and magic levels an all Necromancer army can get you though. If you want a level 3 or 4 Necrach, you need to sacrifice another hero slot to by the Lord as opposed to the Count.

Also, Necromancy is a supperb lore. They get what many consider the most versatile spell in the game; the Invocation of Nehek, which, as you may or may not know, has three casting levels and raises new skeletons or zombies. Gaze of Nagash, the standard 2D6 S4 magic missile, a usefull movement spell, a troop enhancer and hand of dust, which is excellent on a vampire needing to kill off anything nasty in combat.

I play a Blood Dragon army (normal list) and so I tend not to field very much magic. usually around 5 - 6 levels and rely much more on the fighting power of my Vampires and wight units. So keep in mind I dont know all that much about fielding a magic heavy VC army or a magic heavy army in general. But I do know what wins VC games. Vampires in large units making lots of kills to boost the static combat res of the large skeleton unit they are in. A vampire general in a large unit of skeletons is a hard target to shift, as well as dangerously game winning. Even more so in a magic heavy army as you can just keep on bringing more skeletons back.

Keep that unit's flanks safe, have a hard hitting unit like black knights to threaten your oppenent's flanks and harry him with spirit hosts/bat swarms, ghouls, wolves, banshees (which can cause absolute havoc!!) and fell bats. Build your units large to take advantage of fear,use your magic to blast your opponent at the start to weaken his army / take out his support units. Win combats using your vampire, flanking enemies with the fast wolves or powerful knights. Hosts in the flank can be a pain in the **** too. Use Invocation to replenish your troops until you over welm your opponent, and as mentioned above us the Invocation-Danse Macabre into the rear combination as often as you can. Plus hellish vigor can win combats by itself.

TheWarSmith
29-07-2006, 16:19
Voltaire: Yellow fire is USELESS in daemon armies, as their 5+ save becomes a normal ward, so it'd be really redundant.

RED= I always take red fire. It's rare that I get a combo that doesn't warrent swapping one for this. It's 30" means there's always something to fry and at 5+ casting, you CAN cast it w/ that 1 spare die in your pile, especially if you took skull of katam(+1 casting rolls). As said, it's great for picking off those MSU armies little buggers. tunnel rats got your back? no more w/ this friendly spell.

Orange=FANTASTIC. More useful on mobile casters that will see combat more often. W/ a character on horse in a knight unit, this spell completely makes it possible to panic 25 man units in the front. Remember, it's good for armour and ward saves too.

Yellow=Meh. Its use should be analyzed depending on the battle you're facing. If the character is in a unit of chosen chaos warriors or something and there are cannons facing you down, then it's good, but if it's just wood elves, dump it. It's nice for beast herds.

Green=it's even better when you can get the dorks using great weapons. This spell MELTS high elf swordmasters into bloody pulp. It's generally much less usefull against dwarves, so I'd usually dump it in these cases.

Blue=As stated, much more useful on mobile lords, not on foot sloggers. Expect this one to draw out dispel dice like a madman. I've seen this spell WIPE out units, but the 12" makes it much tougher

Indigo=Analyze the enemy force. It's only 18" range and only useful on low toughness, low armor save units. Ideally, you don't want to put it against spearmen or stuff that's TOO big, because the horrors will just die in the close combat phase, resulting in almost nothing. The perfect placement is in a unit of 20 T3, 5+ save, wound 6-7, 4-5 deaths, 4-5 horrors, then another 3 deaths, etc. so you may hold onto one preventing his move the following turn.

Violet=Another path to red fire. They could have at least made it like coils of death from the dark emmisary magic, which was a toughness test. Anything that's worth killing probably has DECENT leadership(except gobbos and rats). This is probably the weakest 6th level spell in the game.

7th ed will throw Tzeentch a curveball cause you won't be able to have a lord use his heroes' power dice.

ebolatheripe
29-07-2006, 21:19
7th ed will throw Tzeentch a curveball cause you won't be able to have a lord use his heroes' power dice.

But on the flip side, Tzeench will be one of the only magic heavy armies that can have a lord relatively safe from those nasty miscasts, by taking the Staff of Tzzentch:D. Being that your lord can cost somewhere around 500pts. it makes a BIG difference.

Voltaire
29-07-2006, 22:00
Considering most people combat daemons with magical weaponed characters, Yellow Fire is not a redundant spell Warsmith. If you'd paid attention, you'd see our friend, Twisted Ferret, was considering a MORTAL army, so the 5+ save would be simply daemonic. In my book thats a very good thing for lucky people, or do you not thing a save against magical weaponary is worth the effort.

And in 7th ed, who will get the extra power dice?

jahorin
29-07-2006, 22:35
Voltaire: Yellow fire is USELESS in daemon armies, as their 5+ save becomes a normal ward, so it'd be really redundant.

if i'm not mistaken, there's a storm of chaos q&a that specify that since that the deamons have normal ward in a deamonic legion, when you cast yellow fire it increases the ward save to 4+.

Three Headed Monkey
30-07-2006, 03:01
7th ed will throw Tzeentch a curveball cause you won't be able to have a lord use his heroes' power dice.

This effects all armies. At least Tzeentch armies will be able to have any wizard in the list use the dice generated from units with the Mark of Tzeentch, so strictly speaking Tzeentch is one of the armies least effected by this change as they will have a larger general use pool than almost any other army.


if i'm not mistaken, there's a storm of chaos q&a that specify that since that the deamons have normal ward in a deamonic legion, when you cast yellow fire it increases the ward save to 4+.

Yep. I've seen a unit of horrors with a 2+ ward. Dispite warnings my partner at the time still fired a hell blaster into it :rolleyes: to no avail, of course.

the_night_reaper
30-07-2006, 04:04
Yep. I've seen a unit of horrors with a 2+ ward. Dispite warnings my partner at the time still fired a hell blaster into it :rolleyes: to no avail, of course.


How did they get a 2+ ward? unless you somehow stacked the yellow fire spell which I'm pretty sure you can't do btw. If you could why would you not be able to do it on mortal units?

TheWarSmith
30-07-2006, 04:41
The only way yellow fire could really affect daemons is if a daemon prince joined a unit of horrors, which I'd think is a BAD idea.

the_night_reaper
30-07-2006, 13:52
..or mortal character with the chalice of chaos

Three Headed Monkey
30-07-2006, 14:29
How did they get a 2+ ward? unless you somehow stacked the yellow fire spell which I'm pretty sure you can't do btw. If you could why would you not be able to do it on mortal units?

Im not sure. Maybe he misinterpreted the rules for how it interacts with ward saves. Perhaps he saw that Diabolic Splendor gives SoC list Daemons +1 to their ward so perhaps he took his cue from that. He has the Hordes of Chaos book, not me. I do have the Storm of Chaos book but the effect of whatever fire gives the ward save isnt mentioned. I just assumed he knew what he was talking about. He is usaully very forthright with rules, even those of his opponents that have a negative effect on his army that his opponent didnt know about.

I shall have to ask him.

jahorin
30-07-2006, 15:56
well if you have a deamon prince with diabolic splendor casting yellow fire on himself he would get 3+ ward save. the unholy icons which increases the ward save by +1 does affect characters that joined the unit. (storm of chaos p. 27)

so he couldn't have joined a unit to gain another +1 ward save. but still 3+ ward save isn't bad at all. but i prefer casting red fire on my deamon prince, he more viable in HtH.

DirtJumper
30-07-2006, 17:31
You can stack yellow in a Daemon army, as the Errata on the SoC lists states that you treat this spell as you do Diabolic Splendor in the Daemon Legion, i.e. the unit gets +1 to it's ward save. Thus, multiple castings of it onm one unit ca up it's ward save as much as you want, but it is kind of redundent past 2+ (as a roll of a 1 always fails)

TheWarSmith
30-07-2006, 19:08
How are you getting a 3+ ward?

You can get the 4+ from the unholy icon from a unit, OR 4+ from the actual gift diabolic splendor. The listing specifically says "does NOT apply to characters joining the unit"

Isn't yellow fire only cast on the character and the unit himself? I don't have any chaos books in front of me, but I don't recall you being able to target other units w/ yellow fire.

Twisted Ferret
30-07-2006, 22:32
@Voltaire and Three Headed Monkey: Thank you for the Necrarch rundowns. I have decided, however, to go with Tzeentch for now... but I will keep the VC in mind. :D


7th ed will throw Tzeentch a curveball cause you won't be able to have a lord use his heroes' power dice.
Thank you for the spell descriptions, as well. I'm pretty sure I want to go Tzeentch... but what exactly is going to be changed in 7th Ed.?


But on the flip side, Tzeench will be one of the only magic heavy armies that can have a lord relatively safe from those nasty miscasts, by taking the Staff of Tzzentch. Being that your lord can cost somewhere around 500pts. it makes a BIG difference.

This effects all armies. At least Tzeentch armies will be able to have any wizard in the list use the dice generated from units with the Mark of Tzeentch, so strictly speaking Tzeentch is one of the armies least effected by this change as they will have a larger general use pool than almost any other army.
Wow, this is good news. I'm not sure what exactly will be changed, but I've heard tell of even worse Miscast tables... so both of these posts have greatly reassured me as to be effectiveness of my army in the mysterious 7th Ed. :D


And in 7th ed, who will get the extra power dice?
I'd like to know as well. :eek:


You can stack yellow in a Daemon army, as the Errata on the SoC lists states that you treat this spell as you do Diabolic Splendor in the Daemon Legion, i.e. the unit gets +1 to it's ward save. Thus, multiple castings of it onm one unit ca up it's ward save as much as you want, but it is kind of redundent past 2+ (as a roll of a 1 always fails)
Aha, awesome. Maybe I do want to go for a Daemonic legion instead of Mortal...

Voltaire
30-07-2006, 22:32
They are self ranged. Character & unit only. However Yellow Fire still has its advantages.

TheWarSmith
31-07-2006, 04:22
"Thank you for the spell descriptions, as well. I'm pretty sure I want to go Tzeentch... but what exactly is going to be changed in 7th Ed.?"

Well, power dice that are generated by wizards can only be used by the wizards that generate them, meaning you can't have a lvl 4 cast all of his spells and short change the lvl 2s that he stole the dice from(which you can do now)

Tzeentch won't be hurt by this as much as other armies because of 2 things.

1)Lots of power dice generated by "non wizard sources", such as power familiars(a bit debated) and marks of tzeentch. All non caster generated dice will be stored in the collective pool.

2)Staff of Change. Lords will have to use this puppy MORE often than they previously did because it's the supreme economizer in terms of power dice usage. It often makes it possible to cast spells normally requiring 3-4 dice with 1 less die due to the reroll.