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View Full Version : Where is the "Emperor" of the Eldar/Orks/Tau/Kroot??



Hellebore
27-07-2006, 09:44
Basically, what makes humanity SOOO special they get their very own immortal ruler who supposedly will one day suppress the chaos gods?

Obviously, the tau being very poor in the psychic department will not get one, but they certainly could get something along the same THEME.

So, apart from the fact the world was written BY humans for humans, why do the other races not get their special saviour?

And Ynnead doesn't count.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
27-07-2006, 09:54
Basically, what makes humanity SOOO special they get their very own immortal ruler who supposedly will one day suppress the chaos gods?

Maybe the Emperor isn't actually an immortal ruler who will one day suppress the Chaos Gods after all?

Maybe he was merely an exceptional psycher whose abilities allowed him to initiate the Great Crusade, but has only been kept alive through the arcane technology of the Golden Throne and the mass sacrifice of psychers?

Unless of course you accept the 'born through the conglomeration of shamen' theory, but I think that has been left out of official background for long enough to be comfortably discarded anyway.

Some guy (UK)
27-07-2006, 10:01
A reason for humanity having an Emperor? The Shamans who sacrificed themselves to create him knew that humanity would be too weak without a powerful leader who could help guide man along the right path throughout history (they were a dying kind- apart from them, no one knew anything about the Warp).


9000-8000 BC: Earth's spiritualists are unconsciously aware of Warp energies and the manipulations dangers of the warp, as the Human, Ork and Eldar psyches began to cause disharmony in the warp, the spiritualists and shamen are unable to use there abilities to reincarnate. Over thousands of years the feelings of a coming darkness and the difficulty in reincarnation have grown ever stronger. After years of indecision and increasing fear, the most powerful of the psychics and spiritualists commit mass, ritual suicide and combine their souls into a single, all-powerful entity. It works, but the phrase, "All your eggs in one basket" comes to mind. This creates an immortal being who will not need to reincarnte. The release of so much energy disrupts planetary weather patterns and causes severe flooding in many areas.


8000 - 1400 BC: The Chaos gods Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch are born as the humans emotional and intellectial corruption creates huge ripples in the warp. Daemons walk the Earth and for a while it looks like the Earth will be sucked into the warp, but the Emperor leading a primitive tribe of humand create the pyramids which act as a psychic anchor shielding the Earth from the effects of the warp gods they are creating.

Later, Some Guy

Hellebore
27-07-2006, 10:53
A reason for humanity having an Emperor? The Shamans who sacrificed themselves to create him knew that humanity would be too weak without a powerful leader who could help guide man along the right path throughout history (they were a dying kind- apart from them, no one knew anything about the Warp).





Later, Some Guy


Well, I know WHY the emperor was formed, I want to know what makes humanity so special that ONLY they got to create one.

Why did the eldar not make one, why do the orks never manifest one?

Hellebore

Lord Dante
27-07-2006, 10:58
Tough question but then the Eldar sort of did manifest one in Slanesh?

Maybe the Orks, due to thier nature or lifestyle never will - perhaps the devine powers of good (some opposite to chaos) thought it was time for a new son of god. ie Jesus 2...

Im not religous but Ive always thought of the Emp as more of the 2nd comming.

Kjell
27-07-2006, 11:04
Because only the Humans thought they needed one?

Some guy (UK)
27-07-2006, 11:11
Because only the Humans thought they needed one?

Which was what I was sort of reffering to in my original post. The orks were created by the old ones as a warrior race to protect them IIRC, so, I guess their greatest warriors/commanders count as High and Mighty figures to them. Other than that, make up your own fluff, or ask GW :p

Later, Some Guy

Tyron
27-07-2006, 11:57
Humans wrote the fluff and decided to be the dominant race in the galaxy.

fracas
27-07-2006, 12:08
interesting old fluff that chronologically may be superceded by the newer fluff regarding war in the heaven

Sephiroth
27-07-2006, 14:25
Because we're humans, and we're 'special'. :p

Out of any race in Star Wars that manifests the force, who was the chosen one? It's a human.

Star Trek, which race unites all the others whom are far older, but still willingly submit to them? Humans.

Babylon 5, last, best hope for peace - oh look, the place is a station built by humans, run by humans. ;)

Independance Day aliens, or the Covenant from the Halo series - both powerful forces that have travelled across the galaxy, consuming worlds in the first's case, or enslaving/absorbing species in latter's.

Until they ran into humans. :p

There was a novel by author Karen Traviss, where an alien summed up this view humans have:


"Do you know what I despise most about you?" […] "Your unshakable belief that you’re special, that somehow all the callousness and careless violence that your kind hand out to each other and to other beings can be forgiven because you have this… this great human spirit.

I have viewed your dramas and your literature. I have lost count of the time that I have seen humans spared by aliens because, despite humanity’s flaws, the alien admires their plucky spirit and ability to strive.

Well I am that alien, and I don’t admire your spirit, and your capacity to strive is no more than greed. And unlike your god, I don’t love you despite your sins."

:D

Splagbot
27-07-2006, 14:36
The Orks got Ghazgkhull Thraka, the Eldar created Slaanesh, tits, the Tau don't need one as it would contradict the whole theory of the Greater Good, Chaos got Abbadon, the Necron are to powerful to need a saviour and the Dark Eldar I don't know enough about to comment on.

Did I forget anyone?

chivalrous
27-07-2006, 14:48
The orks were created by the old ones as a warrior race to protect them IIRC, so, I guess their greatest warriors/commanders count as High and Mighty figures to them.

Saying that, you look at the effect a Waagh has on Ork warlords, they appear to get stronger, more hostile, more cunning and organised.
I know that in Fantasy fluff, Orcs generate a communal psychic field (was this the same in WH40K 2nd ed while weirdboyz were still around?)

Could it be that they have have a constant fluctuating effect that energises a single orc in a similar way to how the Shamen poured all their power into one man?

The Orcs create a saviour when they feel they need one as an instinctive racial mechanism rather than a conscious desire for a saviour.

Hellebore
27-07-2006, 14:51
Because we're humans, and we're 'special'. :p

Out of any race in Star Wars that manifests the force, who was the chosen one? It's a human.

Star Trek, which race unites all the others whom are far older, but still willingly submit to them? Humans.

Babylon 5, last, best hope for peace - oh look, the place is a station built by humans, run by humans. ;)

Independance Day aliens, or the Covenant from the Halo series - both powerful forces that have travelled across the galaxy, consuming worlds in the first's case, or enslaving/absorbing species in latter's.

Until they ran into humans.
There was a novel by author Karen Traviss, where an alien summed up this view humans have:



:D

Never read the book, but I want to now:D

And I absolutely agree with every one of those points you made about other scifi. The day humanity wakes up to itself and realises being a hairless ape wot can use computers is nothing special, will be a joyous one.

However, my main point was not humans wrote it, because I already discounted that in the original post.

It is perhaps more correct to say WHY do they not have one?

The capacity for an 'emperor' construct is there for all psychic races, and I cannot see a single thing in the background that would prevent such a thing from happening.

So I ask, IS there something preventing this happening in other races, or is it really JUST "humans are teh roxors"?

Hellebore

Eisen
27-07-2006, 14:51
Well, there's also the fact that Orks and Eldar (both flavors) were created, not evolved, and the Eldar have shown a marked tendency for things like Khaine, Vaul, Slaanesh, random Avatar manifestation, and the like, the Tau are barely into space exploration and the human emperor took 35,000 years of recorded history to manifest himself rather than the bare handful the Tau have been at it, the 'Nids are in essence a collective Emperor equivalent, the Necrons have SPACE GODS! for crying out loud...

Hellebore
27-07-2006, 14:55
Well, there's also the fact that Orks and Eldar (both flavors) were created, not evolved, and the Eldar have shown a marked tendency for things like Khaine, Vaul, Slaanesh, random Avatar manifestation, and the like, the Tau are barely into space exploration and the human emperor took 35,000 years of recorded history to manifest himself rather than the bare handful the Tau have been at it, the 'Nids are in essence a collective Emperor equivalent, the Necrons have SPACE GODS! for crying out loud...

Depending on whether the gestalt shaman story is still true, the Emperor has been around for 48,000 years, but only took a direct hand during the 28,000's.

He didn't manifest, he simply made himself known. Before that he worked in the shadows./

Hellebore

Eisen
27-07-2006, 15:07
Right, I'm only using the recorded history part of human history. Where he was before that is somewhat difficult to verify as writing hadn't been invented.

Sephiroth
27-07-2006, 15:16
Never read the book, but I want to now:D

From Crossing the Line, the sequel to City of Pearl, both by Karen Traviss.


However, my main point was not humans wrote it, because I already discounted that in the original post.

It is perhaps more correct to say WHY do they not have one?

The capacity for an 'emperor' construct is there for all psychic races, and I cannot see a single thing in the background that would prevent such a thing from happening.

Can they? I don't think the Emperor was just a synergistic combination of early psykers. After they died to create him, 'psykers' disappeared from Humanity up until the age of strife.

Add to that, the 'Shamans' are talked about as a sort of 'pre-man' in the background, suggesting they weren’t really human completely (created by Old Ones?).


So I ask, IS there something preventing this happening in other races, or is it really JUST "humans are teh roxors"?

Hellebore

Sadly, I feel its "humans are teh roxors" - why didn't any of the other races have a 'Golden/First/Prime' people type, suggesting they have a great destiny?

Prodigalson
27-07-2006, 15:24
The Simple answer is that the other races did have an Emperor like thing or being. A short answer is below.

The Humans, Eldar, and Krork (and to my belief the Tau) are all creature created by the Old Ones.

The Eldar had their Gods, which lead them until the creation of Slannesh. The exact nature of Khaine and the other eldar gods are somewhat of a conundrum. Khaine fought the C'Tan Nightbringer in the real world, but was ripped in two by Khorne and Slannesh as they fought over him. At any rate, it is my belief that the Eldar Gods were the Eldar's control factor, that was supposed to keep them in line with the designs of the Old Ones. As long as you keep with your control factor, you head toward glory and also make the galaxy a better place.

The Orks had the brain boys, which aren't around anymore. If they had them, they would not be a disorganized group of lunitics, but would still do the work of the Old Ones, i.e. kill the Necrons.

The Humans had the Emperor, who lead them to glory, and would have mastered chaos and brought peace through the galaxy/fought off necrons if not for Horus.

The Tau still have theirs, they are called Ethereals.

Corlock Striker
27-07-2006, 17:17
The Eldar have their Gods, Vaul, Khaine, all those people.

In addition they have the Pheonix Lords, you know the founders of the Aspect Shrines who are imortal and all that jazz?

Then there is Eldrad Ulthran the Greatest Farseer of the Ulthwe Craftworld.

Then of course there are all Eldar Farseers who look into the future and guide their people down the strands of fate that yield the most promising result for the Eldar Race. There are your individuals within the Eldar Race leading it towards Salvation. The Eldar don't need one single individual to lead them towards the Salvation of their race because their psychers are so powerful and skilled at looking into the future that all their psychers can perform this function for them.

When it comes to humans however, since the Emperer is the gestalt consciousness of all the people who were skilled enough to perform such tasks (the Shamans), only one individual can perform this function for humans.

As for the other races, I've no idea.

Kymar
27-07-2006, 17:37
Beyond the whole Messiah complex us humans seem to like, I say humans in 40k have the Emperor because they are the only race with a monotheistic (one god) religion.

-Eldar have a pantheon of gods, most are dead, but they still worship them as such.
-Dark Eldar, if you don't count Slannesh, then they have ancestor worship where they give sacrifice to another being that was once alive.
-Orks have Mork & Gork, and they will probably never agree on who is better.
-Necron's have manifest gods as the C'tan that compete with each other. Perhaps if one did eat all the other C'tan it could be ultimate, but it hasn't happened yet.
-Tau worship a single idea of "The Greater Good" but its a communal ideal and does not translate to singular worship.
-Tyranid have the Hivemind, and such is the exact opposite of an individual. Unless you think that there is some "little man behind the curtin" of the Hivemind controlling everything, but who believes that?
-Chaos; Pantheon, 4 gods 'nuff said.

The Imperium of man is the only race of beings that are monotheistic in 40k, and such are the only race with a Messiah figure: The Emperor.

Shaper Shakra
27-07-2006, 17:49
*sigh* Dark Eldar don't worship Slannesh. Slannesh eats their souls. Would you worship your own murderer? And BTW, does GW still have the Brain Boyz being Snotlings with super mushrooms? Or did they kill that?

Kymar
27-07-2006, 18:14
I know, I know, but The Dark Eldar live & die as Slannesh would like; Brutal, painful and depraved. They effectively follow Slannesh as much as any religion sets rules to live by. Though you are correct, they don't like to send their souls to Slannesh, and I'd equal the rituals they have to ancestor worship where they pledge themselves to a superiour Eldar, and such have others pledged to them.

I dunno about the brain boys, they have been gone from the fluff for a long time and I don't think they actually had any models.

Minister
27-07-2006, 18:27
The Brain Boyz thing is sidestepped for the most part, and in any case the Orks have no way of having any information on the subject unless it was encoded to them at some level.

thimnwitt
27-07-2006, 18:54
One Question that has been kicking around in the back of my head lately is this.

The Emporer didn't start to have God like powers and events attributed to him until after he was placed in the throne, and the multitude of humans across the galaxy started to worship him.

The Tau believe in the greater good, they do have a presence in the warp (be it a very small one), so wouldn't this mean given enough Tau, that someday a Greater Good God might be created in the warp?

Gork and Mork are around simply becuase the Orks think that they are there, so would this flow over into the Tau?

Tyron
27-07-2006, 20:24
Well the tau Castes are controlled by the Ethereals, I swear I read somewhere if they asked a Fire Warrior to kill himself he would.

From this I think few are subject to free will of thought and thus think of the "Greater Good" as a whole and not one person (ie a God). So it would most likely never happen.


As for my race, they have two saviours :D

Kage2020
27-07-2006, 20:28
My initial, gut-reaction is simply: they don't need one.

Kage

jimbobodoll
27-07-2006, 20:40
[QUOTE=Prodigalson
...The Tau still have theirs, they are called Ethereals.
[/QUOTE]

Reading Xeneology it hints... only hints mind you... that the eldar take the crystal head piece out of the leader of a giant insect like race that makes it immune to chaos.... then they disappear... then this is linked to the Tau ethereals as the olfactory phremone crystal they have in their foreheads... The two races dont know as they are at different ends of the galaxy.

Take that with a pinch of salt... Kinda suggests the Eldar manipulated the Tau's development to make them into a tool against chaos... Not that the ethereals are a Tau version of any Emporer type figure

Khaine's Messenger
27-07-2006, 21:25
Basically, what makes humanity SOOO special they get their very own immortal ruler who supposedly will one day suppress the chaos gods?

Because it's mostly only humans who are that paranoid and that greedy and that weak. The Orks, Tyranids, and Tau don't see Chaos as a special threat (well, not any more special than their other "kill on sight" enemies), and their endgame scenarios don't make special allowance for the existance of the Chaos Gods. The Necrons have the Great Work. And all of these races (bar the Tyranids) have their "super saviors" for one threat or another.

The Eldar, at the time of the Emperor's birth, were still worshipping the Old Gods so far as we know, so there would be no need (because Asuryan had seperated the warp and realspace, after all...how could the Gods bring direct harm?) except in the minds of some early worry-warts; which begs the question, of course, as to how the human shamans were able to see what the Eldar couldn't--and I would suggest that they didn't see anything special; on the contrary, they saw a threat out of their league to handle, while to most Eldar, it was situation normal (quite possibly part of the gradual collapse of their civilization).

How many other potential Emperors were there? I'd say a lot. But the Crusade, the Heresy, and the subsequent Imperium has thrust mankind's Emperor into astropolitical prominence.

Kage2020
27-07-2006, 23:31
But the Crusade, the Heresy, and the subsequent Imperium has thrust mankind's Emperor into astropolitical prominence.
And even that is creative agenda on the behalf of GW, or at least it is my mind.

Kage

Indrid Khold
28-07-2006, 01:52
Er .... are we all forgetting that the Emperor of Mankind uh ... got his ass kicked into a coma? Worse than that, actually, as he'd die without the Golden Throne.

Seriously folks, the emperor is not that special. Just because he's worshiped as a god does not MAKE him a god. He was a helluva guy, to be sure, but no better than plenty of other leaders and heroes from other races (Eldrad Ulthran, Asdrubael Vect, and the Tau Ethereals spring to mind). He was in the right place at the right time, and he was very smart, but he's by far the chaos smashing bane of chaos that humanity thinks he is.

Captain Loken
28-07-2006, 03:08
Which was what I was sort of reffering to in my original post. The orks were created by the old ones as a warrior race to protect them IIRC, so, I guess their greatest warriors/commanders count as High and Mighty figures to them. Other than that, make up your own fluff, or ask GW :p

Later, Some Guy

When in the fluff in the necron book they speak about green warriors created to protect the old ones I assumed that they were talking about the lizardmen and the slaan. Hence their close relationship.


Er .... are we all forgetting that the Emperor of Mankind uh ... got his ass kicked into a coma? Worse than that, actually, as he'd die without the Golden Throne.

Seriously folks, the emperor is not that special. Just because he's worshiped as a god does not MAKE him a god. He was a helluva guy, to be sure, but no better than plenty of other leaders and heroes from other races (Eldrad Ulthran, Asdrubael Vect, and the Tau Ethereals spring to mind). He was in the right place at the right time, and he was very smart, but he's by far the chaos smashing bane of chaos that humanity thinks he is.


Please say that you did not just compare the Emperor of Mankind to a preverted elf warlord who cries and cuts himself. Asdrubael Vect is the biggest emo in the galaxy. Don't get me started on the others.:mad: :mad:

Kage2020
28-07-2006, 04:16
What is the point in this thread at all, then? It seems to be a means of letting people to offer up a diatribe so...?

Kage

Puddy
28-07-2006, 21:11
A quicky... are both Warhammer-universes the same but at different times?

This in reply to someone mentioning lizardmen.

Hellebore
29-07-2006, 06:12
What is the point in this thread at all, then? It seems to be a means of letting people to offer up a diatribe so...?

Kage

It was me attempting to find a logical reason that 'in-world', prevents other races forming their own version of the emperor.

The background strongly hints (or hinted) that the emperor was the ONLY one capable of quelling the tide of chaos, through the star child etc.

What makes humanity so great THEY get to be the saviours of the galaxy from chaos?

Why is it humanity is the only one that has taken steps (through the creation of the emperor) to permanently deal with the threat of chaos?

The Eldar just put their information in the Black Libary, the orks don't care, nor do the tyranids.

The Necrons want to permanently seal off the warp, but that doesn't deal with the problem, it simply contains it.

Hellebore

Indrid Khold
29-07-2006, 09:42
Please say that you did not just compare the Emperor of Mankind to a preverted elf warlord who cries and cuts himself. Asdrubael Vect is the biggest emo in the galaxy. Don't get me started on the others.:mad: :mad:


Well let's see ... he rounded up thousands of Eldar survivors WHILE SLAANESH WAS DESTROYING THE WORLD and led them to relative safety, where they then became a powerful galactic force. Vect is very much like the emperor, now that I think about it, in that they both led their respective peoples from tragedy, but were ultimately unable to save them. The emperor was cast down, and Vect seems to have given up.

As for Eldrad Ulthran, he's a greater hero than the Emperor ever even though of being. It's all well and good to implement galactic changes with legions of space marines at your back, but try dong so with just a fistful of runes and a bad attitude...


I like the emperor, don't get me wrong. He seems like a nice boy, but he's hardly unique in a universe so chaotic and prone to change as that of 40K. He just represents the failed race that happens to be in power right at the moment.

Captain Loken
29-07-2006, 10:03
Interesting point. However I disagree. I believe that all the eldar did to the galaxy was ruin it with their arrogent sorcery and with the ending of old night and the great crusade a very powerful and very benevolent being called the emperor of mankind sought to undo what the eldar had done and free humanity from the perils which faced them. Unfortunatly the powers which he sought to destroy, corrupted his sons and because of the sacrifice that he made he now sits immoble on his throne giding an entire race through the warp.

show me an elf who did that

and I wouldn't call ten thousand years a moment

DantesInferno
29-07-2006, 12:29
It was me attempting to find a logical reason that 'in-world', prevents other races forming their own version of the emperor.

The background strongly hints (or hinted) that the emperor was the ONLY one capable of quelling the tide of chaos, through the star child etc.

What makes humanity so great THEY get to be the saviours of the galaxy from chaos?

Surely the answer is right there. Humanity aren't so great that they alone get to be the saviours of the galaxy from Chaos. Basically, it's fairly clear that anything that builds the Emperor up to be this mighty anti-Chaos superweapon is exaggerating the case somewhat - there's no indication that, for example, the Emperor himself thought that his primary purpose was to defeat Chaos; indeed, the true magnitude of the Chaos threat was only perceived through the events of the Heresy.

Hellebore
29-07-2006, 15:24
Surely the answer is right there. Humanity aren't so great that they alone get to be the saviours of the galaxy from Chaos. Basically, it's fairly clear that anything that builds the Emperor up to be this mighty anti-Chaos superweapon is exaggerating the case somewhat - there's no indication that, for example, the Emperor himself thought that his primary purpose was to defeat Chaos; indeed, the true magnitude of the Chaos threat was only perceived through the events of the Heresy.


While I agree in game, it isn't so in the 'metagame' or god perspective. In the fluff as god perspective it is STATED the emperor will one day supress the chaos gods and calm the warp.

Just because the Emperor himself didn't know what he could do, doesn't preclude it being a universal truth.

Hellebore

Vosk
29-07-2006, 15:57
The Necrons want to permanently seal off the warp, but that doesn't deal with the problem, it simply contains it.

Assuming that the Great Work is akin to the Pariah project on a grand scheme, I can safely say that if completed, the Great Work will flatted Chaos, completely.

In Codex: Necrons (the section about a Farseer locating the Culexus Temple and chickening out instead of blowing it away - pages 8-9), we see a world shrouded in the effect described as "void". There is no Warp activity in relation to the world - nothing "mirrored in the Warp". It is not just the Pariah gene carriers either - it extends over the whole planet. Apply that to the galaxy and it is game over, turbulent Warp. ;)



In relation to the original question - only humanity has this Emperor figure because the "equivalents" for the other races are in different forms. They cannot and should not really be compared though. Asking why only humanity had a group of semi-bright shaman who created a powerful soul out of their combined selves is to me a bit like asking "why is that front door red, and that one blue?". Had other races been placed into circumstances similar to humanity, with similar thinking and reasoning in the face of impending doom, coupled with a convenient collection of shaman and the good idea of creating a super-soul I am sure that they too might have created one. The fact is, only humanity has been in that situation (that we know of, at least), so only humanity has one.

There is also a strong case for the "only humanity really needs an Emperor-like figure" argument.

Most importantly though, GW built their fluff to be humano-centric.

Some guy (UK)
29-07-2006, 16:25
When in the fluff in the necron book they speak about green warriors created to protect the old ones I assumed that they were talking about the lizardmen and the slaan. Hence their close relationship.

My point was sourced from this (a timeline I saved off from the Internet):


An unknown threat attacks the Slann and they are forced into creating a warrior race to defend them, there numbers are further depleted until they finish the Orks, a rapidly breeding race which has technology implanted into it's DNA so an Ork can fight as soon it has matured without having to evolve, invent or learn.

Later, Some Guy

Hellebore
29-07-2006, 16:45
My point was sourced from this (a timeline I saved off from the Internet):



Later, Some Guy

The Krork was the name given to the orks originally (and I actually like that name, gets away from Tolkien too).

but yes, the Old Ones created the Orks as a meat shield, and the eldar as a gun.

hellebore

Commander Ozae
29-07-2006, 17:38
Continueing with the GW human centric idea, the current rumor is that humanity was the last race that was engineered by the Old Ones to become the psychic power-house they will be. The Emperor is just what humans will eventually become. Also, we must remember that the eldar are planning to do something similar with the creation of Ynnead. The common thread is combining numerous psychic beings to form one ultimate, its just humans thought of it first. GO HUMANS!!!

Xisor
29-07-2006, 20:37
Where is the "Emperor" of the Eldar?

They didn't have one. Being a specifically tailored part of the Old Ones' creative dohickeys it wasn't really needed. They had super-leaders and perhaps some of the Eldar gods *were* ascended Eldar, but generally the Eldar weren't 'evolving' anymore, they were all *good enough* as they were.

Where is the "Emperor" of the Orks?

See the Eldar answer. It's typically translated to the Old Ones again, but that they also had a 'middleman' level of their own race: the 'Brain Boyz'. Unofortunately, or perhaps fortunately for the Old Ones(by design), when the Old Ones were no longer about to minister their fungi to the Brain Boyz and keep them 'onside', the Orkish subtype took over and they learned/were already able to persist *without* any Emperor subtype. They weren't, however, capable in the same way as those enabled *with* an Emperor subtype. It is my supposition that the Ork Gods: Gork and Mork and Mindy, are very much part of the whole 'natural Orkish way' thing. With Ork Spores, you get:
- Squig-animals
- Grotz
- Snotlings
- Orks
- Psychic/Warp-borne gods
- etc

Where is the Emperor of the Tau?

Ethereals. Plain and simple. Whoever had their hand in the pot with the Ethereals' creation clearly had done a fair bit of their history. Super-races were prone to falling off their perch(Eldar) or not doing very much(all the rest we never really hear of...Hrud, K'nib, Rashaan etc), and bog standard races(Orks!) were just that: bog standard(good, but still very standard).

With Humanity, it was seen that a great 'resistance' to Chaos could be created, a 'unifying might' as it were...but it was psychic. And psychic = bad so history shows us(CRef: The Enslavers & Chaos). With the Tau and the Ethereals we have 'blunts' and resitance to the machinations(as well as the more prevalent rampant corruption) of Chaos. By that I mean the Ethereals have their *innate* invulnerability(Small Print: May not *actually* be invulnerable) to Chaos as well as their philosophy of 'The Greater Good' which they seem to be able to realise well enough, which also combats Chaos as well as being handy on a 'becoming supreme race' front too.

Where is the Emperor of the Kroot?

Good question. Who wants to start throwing about 'epic' Kroot conspiracy theories(not just your usual 'rebelling against the Tau!' :eek: )! Personally, I'm rather fond of the Kroot really being an evolutionary quirk, it gives them a real 'natural' feel...

The rest?

Depends on whether you had a 'hand' in your species' creation or not. I'd propose that those who *did* get tampered with do have potential to allow for such 'leader' figures, more so as time goes on. Really it's just a control panel to your race...I guess(Why is fighting Chaos *good*?, for instance). If you weren't tampered with: go about your business as usual, but you've limited 'history-modern-future' scope when it comes to grand intruige so keep your head down!

As for human-centricity. Humanity's quirk(though the Tau are contenders too) is that they have more than one hand in their racial history pot. Not only does it seem the Old Ones may have designed our race for a purpose, but the C'tan have been adding their own little spices and herbs to the mix too...who know's which'll prevail!? Perhaps there'll be a third introspective hand...and since "three implies Chaos"...

Indrid Khold
29-07-2006, 20:44
Interesting point. However I disagree. I believe that all the eldar did to the galaxy was ruin it with their arrogent sorcery and with the ending of old night and the great crusade a very powerful and very benevolent being called the emperor of mankind sought to undo what the eldar had done and free humanity from the perils which faced them. Unfortunatly the powers which he sought to destroy, corrupted his sons and because of the sacrifice that he made he now sits immoble on his throne giding an entire race through the warp.

show me an elf who did that

and I wouldn't call ten thousand years a moment


Ten thousand years is but a moment in galactic scale. According to various bits of fluff (most recently and most explicitly Xenology) the Eldar have been starfarers for MILLIONS of years. And for most of that time they had a stable, powerful, culturally rich civilization.

Humanity has only ever glimpsed that for themselves, and their power is fast fading. If the emperor had lived, things might have been different, but as it is his philosophies have been corrupted by dogma and prejudice, and everything he built is slowly but surely crumbling.

And the Eldar don't need a corpse on a throne to navigate space, they have the Webway. It's much quicker, and more environmentally friendly. ;) They do, however, have a whole cast of seers who guide their people through time itself, I'd like to see a nub-eared human do THAT.

Commander Ozae
29-07-2006, 20:59
You underestimate humanity and overestimate the eldar. The Webway is nothing more than a creation of the Old Ones that the eldar copied and/or took over for themselves, besides a good deal of the webway is sealed off or destroyed. Humans however not only invented warp drives (eldar never did) but also created the navigator gene and Astronomican and Gellar Field to safely travel. *end rant*

One thing we have to look at is that of all the races the eldar are the most likely to form another Emperor like guy. The eldar gods might have been the equivalent of the Emperor although they're powers seem to be more specific (Vaul in creation, Khaine in war etc). Also, the eldar have a different view on the value of life. Humans think the ends justify the means so its ok to experiment to create Navigators, SM, even the Emperor who is technically engineered. The eldar don't believe in doing that, maybe because they don't evolve and that shapes their minds. Only humans have the psychic potential and the will to manipulate life to create a super-being like the Emperor.

Captain Loken
29-07-2006, 21:23
Ten thousand years is but a moment in galactic scale. According to various bits of fluff (most recently and most explicitly Xenology) the Eldar have been starfarers for MILLIONS of years. And for most of that time they had a stable, powerful, culturally rich civilization.

Humanity has only ever glimpsed that for themselves, and their power is fast fading. If the emperor had lived, things might have been different, but as it is his philosophies have been corrupted by dogma and prejudice, and everything he built is slowly but surely crumbling.

And the Eldar don't need a corpse on a throne to navigate space, they have the Webway. It's much quicker, and more environmentally friendly. ;) They do, however, have a whole cast of seers who guide their people through time itself, I'd like to see a nub-eared human do THAT.




Your point on the ten thousand years is dualy noted. And also the Imperium is just a vast decaying bureucracy. But Humans have what it takes to destroy chaos and the other creations of the old ones do not. For one simple reason, the hummies are the ones who created the game of Warhammer:)

Vosk
29-07-2006, 22:32
But Humans have what it takes to destroy chaos and the other creations of the old ones do not. For one simple reason, the hummies are the ones who created the game of Warhammer:)

Do they really though? At best, pacify the Warp for a while, but eventually the Sea of Souls will mirror the eh, sea of souls that are happily spreading across the galaxy enjoying a golden age, and they will be right back where they started.

Perhaps this is why the Eldar, the Old Ones and so on never bothered with a super psychic Emperor figure to pacify the Warp and smack down Chaos - it cannot be done permanently if you are of a soul-based nature.

Hellebore
29-07-2006, 23:28
Your point on the ten thousand years is dualy noted. And also the Imperium is just a vast decaying bureucracy. But Humans have what it takes to destroy chaos and the other creations of the old ones do not. For one simple reason, the hummies are the ones who created the game of Warhammer:)


This will be perhaps the THIRD time I will say, "Discounting the fact the game was made by HUMANS."

I have already taken that into account.

I want background reasons (like Xisor posted) as to why the other races HAVEN'T created an 'emperor' figure.

Hellebore

Commander Ozae
30-07-2006, 00:22
Orks: too stupid
Eldar: PL maybe are similar but have more respect and value for eldar souls
Tau: no warp capabilities aside from speculation on Ethreals
Dark Eldar: hate psychic powers, wouldn't use them
Tyranids: What else is the Hive Mind but an ascendant Emperor like figure
Chaos: They've got the dark gods so there you go
Necrons: no psychic powers

That's the basic reasons right down there

hellfire
30-07-2006, 01:04
just because humanity is decaying in a material sense doesn't really imply anything about the psychic state of it there are more stable psykers born everyday in the 41st millenium.
even so when the imperium does collapse it will become a smallish group of planets (about the size of the tau empire) which can be easily governed.
another thing is that the adeptus mechanicus are constantly collecting information not really through STC anymore but i read fluff on the ad-mech yahoo group that described how human technology was implanted in our flesh much like the orks except that we have to look for it and not all of its there (actually very very little of it is there). This means that the Ad-mech might find something really important like how to make new primarchs or heal the emperor which could lead to a new great crusade.

on a side note the emperor is in fact the omnissaih this was proven when the emperors flesh was examined for new information and absolutley no info was found (even stuff they already knew) he also demonstrated knowledge of several complicated mechanical devices

Kage2020
30-07-2006, 01:09
Pardon? Sorry, hellfire, there were several very large jumps in what you posted so I thought that I would ask you to post more information. While I'm really not fond of people posting links or whatever as "explanations", at the same time it is nice for there to actually be explanations. Care to make them?

Kage

DantesInferno
30-07-2006, 01:50
While I agree in game, it isn't so in the 'metagame' or god perspective. In the fluff as god perspective it is STATED the emperor will one day supress the chaos gods and calm the warp.

Care to provide a source on that? If the foundation of the debate is that humanity is somehow privileged or made special by the status of the Emperor, I'd like to have the evidence of this presented. I'm aware that RT-era sources say something to that effect, but is there anything in the last 15 years or so which backs this position up? If not, I'd be tempted to say the RT-era sources have been at least partially overridden by more modern accounts which stress the Emperor's fallibility (eg. the IA articles).

Indrid Khold
30-07-2006, 02:44
Your point on the ten thousand years is dualy noted. And also the Imperium is just a vast decaying bureucracy. But Humans have what it takes to destroy chaos and the other creations of the old ones do not. For one simple reason, the hummies are the ones who created the game of Warhammer:)

Hmm... yeah okay you got me there. ;)

Hellebore
30-07-2006, 03:11
Care to provide a source on that? If the foundation of the debate is that humanity is somehow privileged or made special by the status of the Emperor, I'd like to have the evidence of this presented. I'm aware that RT-era sources say something to that effect, but is there anything in the last 15 years or so which backs this position up? If not, I'd be tempted to say the RT-era sources have been at least partially overridden by more modern accounts which stress the Emperor's fallibility (eg. the IA articles).


Fallibility is by no means evidence to counteract the emperor will fix everything argument. ultimate power and ability do not go hand in hand, as the many gods of our own history can attest.

Unfortunately I don't have my stuff with me, being at work. However, the novel Eye of Terror by Barrington J. Bailey (which is circa 5 years old) mentions that Tzeentch knows what the emperor will do when he is freed into the warp, namely pacify chaos.

Of course, the veracity of that depends on whether you take BL novels as part of canon (which I do as they are published by Games Workshop).

Then there is also the formation of the Emperor. If, as you say, the RT era text about the emperor and star child etc is out of date and no longer relevant, then this would also apply to the gestalt shaman formation of the emperor as well, would it not? If your reasoning for the information being inaccurate is due to age, then surely the logical thread would to be to say all information from the same age is also inaccurate?


But if the emperor isn't the gestalt formation of thousands of earth shamans, then what IS he? A god incarnate? An ordinary man that was psychically powerful?

Hellebore

DantesInferno
30-07-2006, 10:35
Fallibility is by no means evidence to counteract the emperor will fix everything argument. ultimate power and ability do not go hand in hand, as the many gods of our own history can attest.


If the Emperor is fallible, surely he cannot be the definite, failsafe, 100% certain creation to defeat Chaos which you were discussing before. Since more modern background portays him as fallible, this is not an option.



Unfortunately I don't have my stuff with me, being at work. However, the novel Eye of Terror by Barrington J. Bailey (which is circa 5 years old) mentions that Tzeentch knows what the emperor will do when he is freed into the warp, namely pacify chaos.

I haven't read the book, but surely what Tzeentch knows (or thinks, or fears) is not the objective truth of the matter?



Then there is also the formation of the Emperor. If, as you say, the RT era text about the emperor and star child etc is out of date and no longer relevant, then this would also apply to the gestalt shaman formation of the emperor as well, would it not? If your reasoning for the information being inaccurate is due to age, then surely the logical thread would to be to say all information from the same age is also inaccurate?

I wouldn't argue that it's merely the age of the background which makes it out of date, but rather the inconsistency with later background. The extent to which it is inconsistent is debatable, but I believe the depiction of the Emperor from at least 2nd ed on is sufficiently different to allow us to distinguish it from earlier incarnations. I don't think this is a radical position, we always follow newer versions of the canon over older ones, at least where there is direct conflict. Where there is indirect conflict, as in here (there's no alternative theory for the Emperor's birth provided), you need to weigh up the level of inconsistency, the age of the older piece, and also the opportunities GW have had to re-introduce it had they wanted to. I am of the opinion these factors then allow you to remove it from the 'official' background perspective.



But if the emperor isn't the gestalt formation of thousands of earth shamans, then what IS he? A god incarnate? An ordinary man that was psychically powerful?

The third one there is the theory I personally like (although it must be noted that he would be an extremely powerful psyker, probably the most powerful in the history of Mankind). It's a much more interesting story for me when someone is deified against their wishes after their death if they were not already a god to begin with. Having the Emperor being divine all along takes out a huge chunk of the irony and 1984-ness from the Imperium, which cannot be a good thing.

As a side effect, it also answers the initial question of this thread.

hellfire
30-07-2006, 14:40
Pardon? Sorry, hellfire, there were several very large jumps in what you posted so I thought that I would ask you to post more information. While I'm really not fond of people posting links or whatever as "explanations", at the same time it is nice for there to actually be explanations. Care to make them?

Kage

sorry I edited my post it should make a little more sense now

Kage2020
30-07-2006, 15:06
Erm, okay. Thanks for the attempt. I shall thus ask the question: this 'fluff' about the Emperor's flesh comes from...?

Kage

Commander Ozae
30-07-2006, 15:25
To address the question stated above although the older fluff makes it seem that the Emperor was a messiah figure formed from thousands of psykers who combined to create a god, no one really knows what he is. maybe the Emperor is what humans will eventually become when they complete their evolution into a psychically aware race and he's just ahead of the times, maybe he's a weapon designed by the Old Ones to destroy Chaos and the Necrons. Who knows?

hellfire
30-07-2006, 16:28
the fluff for the emperor being the omnissiah comes from the adeptus mechanicus yahoo group and from the 40k fluff bible

Commander Ozae
30-07-2006, 16:54
If you want info for Omnissiah stuff check out the Liber Mechanicus, its got a bunch of stuff on the Mechanicus.

Kage2020
30-07-2006, 17:46
Thanks for the pointers to the Omnissiah 'fluff', though I was fully aware of all but some of the later stories that tend to get published in WD. Despite that, there is little information on:


...on a side note the emperor is in fact the omnissaih this was proven when the emperors flesh was examined for new information and absolutley no info was found (even stuff they already knew) he also demonstrated knowledge of several complicated mechanical devices...

The idea that information can be encoded into the genetic structure of beings is nothing new, though it is not something that is found in reference to the Emperor. There is, however, some fan 'fluff' floating around that links implants to knowledge within the adeptus mechanicus (this is Philip Siberring's stance), but humans are not orks...

Kage

Commander Ozae
30-07-2006, 18:30
According to AM fluff, which might be out of date by now, humans do have some knowledge encoded in our genes but whether this is technical like the orks or just like how to eat and breathe i'm not sure. Also, i don't know who did the encoding, presumably the Brain Boyz or Old Ones did it for the orks but not sure who for the hummies.

Xisor
31-07-2006, 10:38
According to AM fluff, which might be out of date by now, humans do have some knowledge encoded in our genes but whether this is technical like the orks or just like how to eat and breathe i'm not sure. Also, i don't know who did the encoding, presumably the Brain Boyz or Old Ones did it for the orks but not sure who for the hummies.

That could indeed be the C'Tan coding. That is: fear of the Nightbringer (and that Pariah packet they dropped in as a freebie).

If the Emperor was destined *in the end* to fully and in every possibility defeat Chaos, don't you think the various seers would have noticed, y'know, that every single 'thread of time' leads to a place where the Emperor triumphs. Okay, I know we don't *actually* know how our choices( woo determinism!) affect the future, but if we assume that the Farseers can see all possibilities, it just takes them time to sift through them and value 'ah, here's one with a 1/15 chance of happening' as greater than 'ooh, something with a 1/Googolplex* chance of happening').

I mean, it can't be known that in the end *it happens*. It just can't. Not *known*.

I also think Humans were OO creations, quite blatantly, but they were a bit...rushed. Incomplete perhaps? Their destiny wasn't 'finished', so the Old Ones didn't actually know what the 'intended outcomes' would be for Humanity.

Hellebore
31-07-2006, 16:40
The third one there is the theory I personally like (although it must be noted that he would be an extremely powerful psyker, probably the most powerful in the history of Mankind). It's a much more interesting story for me when someone is deified against their wishes after their death if they were not already a god to begin with. Having the Emperor being divine all along takes out a huge chunk of the irony and 1984-ness from the Imperium, which cannot be a good thing.

As a side effect, it also answers the initial question of this thread.

Personally, I prefer the 3rd option too, as it removes the 'destined for greatness' sign from humanity, and gives ALL races equal opportunity.

My main reasoning was that GW hasn't portrayed him that way, and so I wondered about why the other races have no 'version' of him.

I don't mind the gestalt shaman idea in and of itself, so long as the whole 'save the galaxy' shtick is removed. The capacity for gestalt soulbinding exists in the fluff (specifically amongst the eldar) so I don't see why humans couldn't also do it.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
01-08-2006, 03:51
I don't mind the gestalt shaman idea in and of itself, so long as the whole 'save the galaxy' shtick is removed. The capacity for gestalt soulbinding exists in the fluff (specifically amongst the eldar) so I don't see why humans couldn't also do it.

They could, but the whole thing just doesn't make any sense to me. Why were there so many powerful psykers in Turkey in 8000BC in the same place and the same time? How did these stone age humans become so aware that they realised the risk of the Chaos Gods, and became willing to sacrifice themselves to defeat them? If humanity was producing such powerful and unprotected psykers so early, was daemonic possession a problem? If the solution was so obvious to a bunch of stone age shamen, why haven't a group of Inquisitors tried it?

I really loathe the shamen idea as it takes a great deal of mystery and irony out of the 40k universe, and replaces it with something which is humano-centric and with massive plot holes in it.

Hence why I'm ready to argue (and with some justification IMO) that it's no longer an official part of the 40k background.

Hellebore
01-08-2006, 04:13
They could, but the whole thing just doesn't make any sense to me. Why were there so many powerful psykers in Turkey in 8000BC in the same place and the same time? How did these stone age humans become so aware that they realised the risk of the Chaos Gods, and became willing to sacrifice themselves to defeat them? If humanity was producing such powerful and unprotected psykers so early, was daemonic possession a problem? If the solution was so obvious to a bunch of stone age shamen, why haven't a group of Inquisitors tried it?

I really loathe the shamen idea as it takes a great deal of mystery and irony out of the 40k universe, and replaces it with something which is humano-centric and with massive plot holes in it.

Hence why I'm ready to argue (and with some justification IMO) that it's no longer an official part of the 40k background.


So then, do you believe the emperor to be a psyker that appeared just prior to the Great Crusade, or one that appeared 50,000 years ago? Is the emperor 'just' a man, or is he immortal?

I believe the reasoning behind the shaman idea was that during that time the chaos gods had not fully wakened in their present humano-centric forms, and so humanity could trawl the warp with little fear. This allowed for many psykers to flourish. Also, it was around that time that agriculture and technology took over from hunter/gathering - an implication of loss of spirituality (the classic science vs religion scenario) that over time caused the shaman knowledge to be lost etc etc.

I would like it to be a psychically powerful man with a mission, who perhaps was several hundred years old, but definitely not a demigod with a destiny.

My question regarding other races was dependent on my understanding of GW's stance on the emperor's origin, so if his origin is null and his destiny does not exist (something I think GW still ascribe to however) then I have no need to ask the question in the first place (as you said, but again, I still think GW have the emperor on a pedestal).

It is really just equality of importance I am after - if the emperor isn't a god, then no one else loses out by not making one, but if he IS, then there should be the capacity for each race to form one

Hellebore

DantesInferno
01-08-2006, 04:53
So then, do you believe the emperor to be a psyker that appeared just prior to the Great Crusade, or one that appeared 50,000 years ago? Is the emperor 'just' a man, or is he immortal?

At some point prior to the Great Crusade? If we, for argument's sake, say that a combination of incredible psychic power and genetic manipulation made the Emperor physically powerful and very long-lived, it's not really that important when he appeared. I don't really like the 'guiding humanity behind the scenes' approach either....

Happening to be the right man at the right time seems a lot more realistic, and avoids the sort of 'manifest destiny of the Emperor and humanity' ideas which seem much more relevant to an Ecclesiarchy hymn-book than a balanced discussion of the 40k universe.



I believe the reasoning behind the shaman idea was that during that time the chaos gods had not fully wakened in their present humano-centric forms, and so humanity could trawl the warp with little fear. This allowed for many psykers to flourish.

This isn't really consistent with the modern War in Heaven background, though. The abundance of psykers 60 million years ago, with all the turbulent emotions of the time, ensured that the warp was far from a calm dimension. Besides, there are other warp-capable races out there besides humanity, why would we in particular have such a capacity to influence the warp at the time when we were a mere hundred thousand hunter gatherers on a backwater planet?

And where is the real-life archeological record to support this? (I'm only half joking on this point). The rest of the 40k background places quite a bit of emphasis of placing our world within 40k (Terra=Earth, Sol=Sun, Mars=Mars, War in Heaven at same time as extinction of dinosaurs etc), so why have a piece of background which manifestly flaunts the disjunction?



My question regarding other races was dependent on my understanding of GW's stance on the emperor's origin, so if his origin is null and his destiny does not exist (something I think GW still ascribe to however) then I have no need to ask the question in the first place (as you said, but again, I still think GW have the emperor on a pedestal).

You'd have to provide evidence that GW still ascribe to the 'Emperor as god with destiny to defeat Chaos' to convince me. Unless you're referring to the 'Emperor as surviving Old One' theory from Xenology, which I haven't commented on thus far as I haven't actually read that source yet. :angel:

But even if you're going with this new theory, it doesn't place the Emperor on any higher a pedestal than the ancient Eldar Gods, which (as the theory goes) were Old Ones too.



It is really just equality of importance I am after - if the emperor isn't a god, then no one else loses out by not making one, but if he IS, then there should be the capacity for each race to form one

Depends what you mean here. My theory goes that the Emperor was not really a god pre-Heresy, but after the Heresy and his deification, the mass amount of emotion generated across a galactic empire was sufficient to raise him to the status of a god. Seen in this way, any race could have the capacity to make a god, based on emotion generated in the warp (though the qualities of each race would vary the ease in which a god was formed - Eldar will find it easier than Tau, I would suggest).

PhlipD
11-08-2006, 11:59
All i'm goin to say on this for the Orks is that Gork & Mork may not be living but they are still Emporers of the Orks, So that means the the Orks have TWO Emporers, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

jimbobodoll
11-08-2006, 12:07
You'd have to provide evidence that GW still ascribe to the 'Emperor as god with destiny to defeat Chaos' to convince me. Unless you're referring to the 'Emperor as surviving Old One' theory from Xenology, which I haven't commented on thus far as I haven't actually read that source yet. :angel:


Ive read Xenology pretty thoroughly. I can't remember anything on the Emporer being a surviving old one. Its a book on aliens not on gods and the emporer.... Please correct me if you know better though!

Skrittiblak
11-08-2006, 13:28
When in the fluff in the necron book they speak about green warriors created to protect the old ones I assumed that they were talking about the lizardmen and the slaan. Hence their close relationship.

Uh, in Nightbringer (and other places) the C'tan refer to these creatures as the alien Krork. Somehow I think Krork = Ancient Ork.

Lord Zarkov
11-08-2006, 21:41
It does indeed refer to the Orks

Inq. Veltane
11-08-2006, 22:26
I haven't seen anyone mention it yet but I might have missed it.

Anyway, the reason that the Emperor has the ability to destroy chaos is because humanity created Chaos. I'm pretty sure that is the logic behind it. Humanity and Chaos have a special affinity.

Captain Optimus Metallus
11-08-2006, 23:44
Not in the current fluff. And thank God for that. The idea that humans, on a single world, created no less then three Chaos gods, whereas the galaxy spanning Eldar empire only created one is beyond ludicrous.

As for why there were so many powerful psykers running around back then, remember that towards the end of the War in Heaven the Old Ones were creating monstrously powerful psychic races to use against the C'Tan. Humans were probably a late result of that work. Yeah, I know, humans came about millions of years later, but the Old Ones did like to take things slow. ;)

Anyway, I still stand by my theory that the Old Ones, or A Old One, molded humanity in order to create the Emperor. Which would explain why other races don't have their versions of the Emperor. As the War in Heaven raged on and on, the Old Ones were creating ever more powerful races to fight against the C'Tan. Humans are likely the only race who could create an Emperor because an Old One altered them to make it possible. The Eldar can't because the Eldar weren't made that way. Then again, the Eldar were made before the War in Heaven, if I remember right. Who knows what form the Eldar would've taken if they'd been made in the middle of it, or towards the end, when the Old Ones were more in need of soldiers then playmates? Point is, the Eldar were a finished work and probably couldn't be changed. Humans, however, were still rodents at the time, or something.

And that, IMO, would also explain the Emperor's powers. I suspect that his powers are roughly equal to an Old One, itself. Something which the Old Ones weren't quite prepared to give to the younger races they created. The fact that the Emperor came long after the War in Heaven fits in as an Old One would only consider giving that kind of power to a member of a younger race if the Old Ones were themselves all but extinct. Can't have the kids rising up and killing you with your own powers, now can you? But if you're race is damn near extinct, with only a handful of survivors, and a huge mess that you left behind for the next generation, why not? And given what it says in Xenology about the Hrud, it appears that a few Old Ones were still around.

So that's my theory: The Emperor = Yet another weapon in the Old Ones arsenal.

What I want to know is, if I'm right and one of the Old Ones altered humans, what've the other Old Ones been up to? Did they all work together to create the Emperor, or are the survivors all following their own individual projects. In which case, what're the other guys up to?