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athamas
17-06-2005, 15:53
i know how big a standard chapter is supposed to be...

but!

how big are other chapters, and how big are their companies,


for example in 3rd war for armegeadon one of the chapters is listed as using 12 companies!

and others are listed as using 10, but not brining their whole force,


and how big/many black templar crusades are there, as they use them instead of companies!


edit: spelling

Lostanddamned
17-06-2005, 15:57
Average Chapter is 1000 marines

Company/great company/brotherhood/drinking buddies - 100 marines

I think there are 1000 marines in the BT but they are divived differently.

Karhedron
17-06-2005, 16:02
The two big exceptions to the 1000-strong chapters are Space Wolves and Black templars. Space Wolves have 12 "Great Companies" (plus the 13th Wulfen company although these guys have been MIA for 10,000 years so are not part of the chapter proper). There has never been any fluff to indicate how large a Great Company is however Codex:SW seems to imply that each Great Company can have up to 20 Wolf Guard in it. If we assume that Wolf Guard form about 10% of the Chapter (in the same way that Veterans form around 10% of normal Chapters), that would suggest Space Wolf Great Companies have around 200 marines. This would suggest that the Space Wolves have about 2,500 men once you include the Great Wolf's retinue which are separate.

No one knows how many Black Templar crusades there are or how many Templars are in each crusade. Some claim that the Templars are in fact the largest Chapter and rival the pre-heresy legions in size but there is no concrete fluff to support this. Codex Black templars is strongly rumoured to be coming out this autumn so we may get more details in that.

Sai-Lauren
17-06-2005, 16:04
No one knows how many Black Templar crusades there are or how many Templars are in each crusade. Some claim that the Templars are in fact the largest Chapter and rival the pre-heresy legions in size but there is no concrete fluff to support this. Codex Black templars is strongly rumoured to be coming out this autumn so we may get more details in that.
I thought it was 3 crusades.

Anyway, there's not just the marines in the BT crusade groups, there's also all the garrisons of the planets they've conquered and recruit from.

Lostanddamned
17-06-2005, 16:06
more than three, in Codex:armageddon there is a quote by captian Navarre of the 4th Crusade

Brother Othorio
17-06-2005, 16:06
Black Templar Crusades vary by size, the one listed in How to Paint Space Marines (which i think was reprinted from the IA) was about 200 marines (tho infact that was about 20 in the Marshals Household and 180 in Fighting Company Heinman, the fact that the fighting company within the crusade had a name might suggest that there could be more than one) ~ however nobody but the Black Templars High Marshal (chapter master) knows how many crusades there really are (hell i'd bet money even he doesnt know ALL of them)

the chapter listed as having 12 companies on Armageddon was the Exorcists, who are a Dark Founding chapter created by the Ordo Malleus so the regular size limit probably doesnt apply.. and that said theres no reason those 12 companies couldnt be smaller than regular companies (the Salamanders after all have a mere 7 companies, but they are 120 strong, theres no reason a chapter couldnt do the opposite)

which of the chapters with 10 companies present are mentioned to have not had their entire chapter there?

athamas
17-06-2005, 16:07
im sure BA are noted as being above usually standard, though they do stick to the 10 company limit!


@Lostanddamned

did you read the first line of my post?

@Brother Othorio

i cant remember, may have been my misreading! ill go look!

Lostanddamned
17-06-2005, 16:08
@athamas: no...

athamas
17-06-2005, 16:09
ok, just checking!

Minister
17-06-2005, 21:38
The Space Wolves' Great Companies are, from my recollection, not much larger than a Codex one, but differ primarily in not having a predefined structure and by including the full range of support units (with the exception of fleet elements) as an integral part rather than an attatchment. Strength of a given GC will hover around the hundred infantry mark for the most part, although it is entirley possible for one to become much larger if the situation allows it.

Gustavus19
17-06-2005, 23:27
IMHO the comany size is harder to determind then it seem to be. From the 2nd Edition Codex, It seem a company, other than its ten squad, also have it's command squad of captain, standard bearer, chaplain and apothecary. It also have its own Rhino, land speeder and bikes. In the new forgeworld sapce marines codex, it suggest that those supports as well as the tanks that attach to the company are either maned by the company's assault squad or the assault reserve company. But I think that if those are maned by the company's squads then it would seriously cut a company task force's fighting ability. In this i don't want to discuss in reality how many a single space marines can take on, but we assume a space marine is roughly equal to a hundred conscript.

Honestly, I think that Space marine chapter as special forces or crack troops in a big operation. It depend on it fast reaction ability and its ability to stand alone against great odds. so if a chapter's tanks are mened by one of it reserve company it would seriously hinder its worth on the battlefield. Thus with a company that have a extra command squad and space marines to med its support i assume that a company at full strength would be like 120 space marine. Of course there is no way any military organiztion to be at full strength but that would put a space marine chapter with its 9 companies at 1080 space marines already. It is 9 company because I would think the scout company's size is depned on the intake and the failure rate rathar then the need of replacement. That is another topic altogether on space marines.

Moreover, a chapter not only have its 9 companies but also a fleet and its HQ staff. its HQ staffs consist of senior officers Librarians and techmarines. In order for the those section to function as well as attach to task forces it wouldn't be less then dozen of Space marine in those sections. So i would imagine a full strength chapter to be around 1300 space marines or more. Considering those number and the real strength of a chapter it should be around 900-1000. of course that's only the fighting strength. The support personel should be as less 7 to 1 for all the high tech (as to the imperium) stuff they need to maintain, and countless servitors of course. This could make the reasonable (at least to me) number of 9000-10000 for the overall strength of a chapter.

drewxfu1
17-06-2005, 23:45
It would make sense for there to be more than 1000 space marines but GW has always stuck to the idea of there being just 1000 marines. IMO the fighting strentgh of the chapter is just the first 5 companies, the others being there to surport them...

Nazguire
18-06-2005, 00:58
The Space Wolves' Great Companies are, from my recollection, not much larger than a Codex one, but differ primarily in not having a predefined structure and by including the full range of support units (with the exception of fleet elements) as an integral part rather than an attatchment. Strength of a given GC will hover around the hundred infantry mark for the most part, although it is entirley possible for one to become much larger if the situation allows it.



I believe that the Great Companies are a bit larger than 100 mark on average. For example, the Great Company of Logan Grimnar, in all likelihood when you consider that the Iron Fathers/Venerable Dreadnoughts/Rune Priests/Wolf Priests etc all reside in that Company, is probably close to the 120-130 mark. Ragnar's Great Company, and now I think about it ALL Great Companies are probably that mark as well. They don't follow the Codex Astartes with a passion, since their Primarch was against it so passionately. So I don't believe it isn't that hard to imagine the Great Companies larger than standard by a fair bit.

The Black Templars, I think I recall having 6 Crusades...so if that is correct I'd hazard a guess at over 2000 Black Templars, as understandably each Crusade would vary greatly in size. The High Marshal would in all likelihood have over 300-400 Black Templars, as they too have this thing about not following the Codex: Astartess and being spread out so thinly over the galaxy as the IA mentions, it would be incredibly hard to accurately count their numbers.

Minister
18-06-2005, 01:51
-Nazguire
I was refering to the strength at any one time, i.e. taking into account the Marines' habbit of going and getting shot at. However, a Great Company is not likley (at least in my opinionation) to breach the 150 mark, including all support units.

-Gustavus19
Nearly all of the support staff for a Marine chapter are chapter serfs, that is to say that they are not marines. Quartermasters, communications technicians, engineering staff, maintenance crews, medical orderlies, fetching, carrying, crewing support vehicles... all is taken on by servitors and unmodified human serfs under the direction of apropriate Marine specialists or officers.

Assuming that a chapter is at full strength, the following gives an approximate value for a codex chapter. As noted before, this is unlikley to ever be achieved, as marines by their very nature are often injured in combat (note that number of Dreadnaughts has been omitted for simplicity and because they're not really Marines any more):

1st company: Captain, Chaplain, Standard, Apothecary, 22 vehicle crew (11 Land Raiders), 100 Battle-Brothers.
Companies 2-5: Captain, Chaplain, Standard, Apothecary, 10 vehicle crew (11 Rhinos), 100 Battle-Brothers.
Companies 6-7: Captain, Chaplain, Standard, Apothecary, 10 vehicle crew (11 Rhinos), 100 Battle-Brothers.
Company 8: Captain, Chaplain, Standard, Apothecary, 10 vehicle crew (11 Rhinos, not often deployed), 100 Battle-Brothers.
Company 9: Captain, Chaplain, Standard, Apothecary, 10 vehicle crew (11 Rhinos), 100 Battle-Brothers.
Company 10: Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, 5 Battle-Brothers, 45 Scouts.

From the companies, then, 1099 Marines.

then, the Librarium and Apothecarion (call it 30 each, for the sake of argument), the Armoury (30 Tech-Marines, plus at least 50 crew for the armour, suplimented at need with troops from the 6th and 7th companies). Add the Chapter Master and Anchient whilst we're here.

1241.

Then the bigie, the Fleet. Three battle-barges, Twelve Strike Cruisers and an indeterminate number of escorts, which we shall name at thirty Hunters for the sake of argument. Assuming three Marines for each Hunter (Captain, XO, Engineer), twenty for each cruiser and fourty for the battleship (along with guestimates of serf crew numbers at 200, 5000 and 10000 respectivley), then there is the matter of the Thunderhawks, which we shall number at 30 (as I seem to remember that from somewhere) and six crew each (again a half-remembered number). This adds a total of 410 aerospace.

1651. Without breaching the Codex.

Of course, most chapters do not reach this. The sixth and seventh are usually used to provide for the fleet, most companies are usually at least slightly under strength, but still the numbers are formiddable. I recommend someone with it to hand add up the organisation chart from the last Codex (remember to filter out Servitors and the like).

Kinstryfe
18-06-2005, 01:51
In addition to the excellent info given by Gustavus19, I'd like to add that another x-factor in determining size of chapters seems to be alluded to in Insignium Astartes, where it states that the 10 squads in a company are made up on non-veteran marines, whereas the first 100 marines promoted to veteran status are moved to the 1st company, the remainder serving as honour guard for officers in their own company, then any additional veterans serving in place of a standard marine in their own squads. So, given a codex chapter, you're looking at anywhere from 103 marines per company (100+ Captain, Ancient, and Apothecary), up to approximately 120 (including ruleswise 2 full command squads), in companies 2-9. Company 1 will be uniformly 0-103 marines, depending on whether there are 100 veterans in the chapter, and anything below 100 will indicate a theoretical lack of veteran command squads in the other companies. Confusing? You betcha?

Oh, yeah, on topic.
Celestial Lions are reduced to 70something marines, and I believe the Crimson Fists are around 3 companies. That's kind of the opposite of what you asked, but important to consider nonetheless.

Long_Fang
18-06-2005, 01:55
There were 20 original space marine legions, each 10, 000 marines strong. Of these the only original one is the Space Wolves.

I dont see the chapter still having 10, 000 marines. Either way, what happened to that many of them? Deaths in the HH?

Long_Fang
18-06-2005, 01:57
Well codex Space Marines 3ed has a whole company on the inside cover. Someone want to count that?

Gustavus19
18-06-2005, 02:04
-Minister

Sry for not stating clearly but yes as you mentioned most of those I count are servitors and serfs not marine. but what I want to state in the HQ staff as marines are those Librarians and Apothecaries. I will imagine the fleet size as you stated as well. and that would put a few hundred marine in the whole fleet.

However, to me there is remain a problem. As the forgeworld SM codex suggest the tank force are mened by those in the 8th company while you mention that the fleet would be mened by 6th and 7th company. This could become a problem if a chapter need to commit most of it companies to a operation then it would hard to replace its losess on the field. As I remember from earily codex if a chapter commit most of its battle company to a war, they would draw immediate replacement from the reserve companies. Moreover, if 3 of the reserve companies are to men the fleet and the tank forces then a chapter's flexibility in a prolonged camaign would be serious hindered as it would be hard for the CO to commit reserve at critial point.

Minister
18-06-2005, 02:06
Oh, yeah, on topic.
Celestial Lions are reduced to 70something marines, and I believe the Crimson Fists are around 3 companies. That's kind of the opposite of what you asked, but important to consider nonetheless.
Thus the average in the region of 1000 marines, which is a nice number. :D

Nazguire
18-06-2005, 02:57
-Nazguire
I was refering to the strength at any one time, i.e. taking into account the Marines' habbit of going and getting shot at. However, a Great Company is not likley (at least in my opinionation) to breach the 150 mark, including all support units.

-


I don't believe that they will breach the 150 mark either. In my opinion, they are a fair bit larger than normal companies, given the evidence and the attitude of the Space Wolves towards the Codex Astartes. I apologise that I misunderstood your intentions about your statement :) However, in my opinion, I too believe that the Great Companies around 120-130 mark and the Chapter is larger than most chapters, but not abysmally larger than the rest (wouldn't want to upset the Smurfs now would we?) :D

Minister
18-06-2005, 03:23
Call it a strength of up to 2000 including fleet elements and other support, maximum of 1500 fighting troopers at any one time. Both figures being for absolute optimum numbers.

Nazguire
18-06-2005, 04:44
1500 fighting men seems reasonable for Space Dogs, me guesses. However, I ask this. Does anyone think that the Ultramarines adhere to the 1000 man limit so strictly. Somehow I don't think any chapter can or will do this properly. Do scouts count towards the limit?

Brother Othorio
18-06-2005, 10:41
There were 20 original space marine legions, each 10, 000 marines strong. Of these the only original one is the Space Wolves.

I dont see the chapter still having 10, 000 marines. Either way, what happened to that many of them? Deaths in the HH?

i believe the revised HH fluff has bumped them up to nearer 100,000 on average.. but the answer still stands: yes, the rest were killed during the Horus Heresy & Great Scouring

athamas
18-06-2005, 11:49
22 vehicle crew (11 Land Raiders),

landraiders have 3 crew!

good numbers there minster, so for most of the 'old' chapters, we are looking at something closer to 2000 'marines' not al of these are fully battle ready, and many are not even dseployed....

oh it is fun picking holes in GW fluff!

Minister
18-06-2005, 12:22
The new Codex is wrong. Land Raiders have two crew.

The Ultramarines, and most of the other chapters, will stick fairly rigidly to having about one thousand Marines acting as infantry soldiers ready for combat at any given time, it's just that most chapters have rather a lot of support units (indeed the Ultramarines have an abnormally large fleet element, which further ups the numbers).

Nazguire
18-06-2005, 23:40
The new Codex is wrong. Land Raiders have two crew.

The Ultramarines, and most of the other chapters, will stick fairly rigidly to having about one thousand Marines acting as infantry soldiers ready for combat at any given time, it's just that most chapters have rather a lot of support units (indeed the Ultramarines have an abnormally large fleet element, which further ups the numbers).


That's where I'm coming from. They may have 1000 or so Marines <---- in their Chapters, but whose to say that the Codex covers other elements. Its known that the Iron Hands train up their barbarian population for combat, do they incorporate them into tactics? If so that bumps up the strength of that particular Chapter 10 fold. And they are seeming to be fairly rigid in Codex Astartes formation (asides from Clan Companies and an unnatural amount of Dreads)

Rabid Bunny 666
18-06-2005, 23:48
there is always under 1,000 marines per chapter, calculating losses in the field and recruitment

BTs have loads more, estimated at 5,000 maximum in the armageddon 'dex

WLBjork
19-06-2005, 10:14
In point of fact there is the potential for a Great Company to have more than 20 Wolf Guard in it.

If you check the side bar by the Wolf Guard Battle Leader, it is stated that they are drawn from the Wolf Guard as well, but the rules state that they specifically do not count to the 20 limit on Wolf Guard Bodyguard or Leaders.

I would give a lowball figure of 150 for a Great Company, not including vehicle crews.

Each Great Company has the following elements (number in brackets is estimated percentage of Great Company make-up):

Wolf Guard (5-10)
Wolf Scouts (5-10)
Blood Claws (15-25)
Grey Hunters (45-60)
Longfangs (10-15)

The only element we have approximate figures for are the Wolfguard at 20-30. This would put the average Great Company in the 200-600 strong range, which may or may not include vehicle crews (my guess is that this will include vehicle crews, given the crewing arrangements in other chapters).

However, the Space Wolves are a major exception to Codex Astartes. Probably 98-99% of all Imperial Space Marine Forces follow Codex:Astartes as laid out by the Ultramarines Primarch.

t-tauri
19-06-2005, 21:33
The other factor for the Wolves are the Lost Companies who have left Fenris and roam the galaxy. There are a couple of companies in the Space Wolf WD who got deployed to the other side of the galaxy and decided not to return. They're replaced on Fenris and left to their own devices.

I'd personally go with around a couple of hundred per Great Company with two thousand to two and half thousand Wolves on Fenris, with maybe five hundred more loose in the galaxy. The potential is there for the Wolves to be even larger if the Lone Wolves have their own Wolf Priests and the facility to recruit more Blood Claws from suitable feral planets. Plus two thousand or so 13th Company. That'd make the Wolves about the size of the Black Templars who are quoted as being around 5000 strong in the various crusades.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the old Legions had strong links with their close successors to give a "core" of similar size which could act in a concerted fashion if the situation demanded it.