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TheSanityAssassin
29-07-2006, 06:28
All sorts of mention goes on about feuds between the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, and about a fight between Jonson and Russ, but I haven't actually seen anything written about what actually happened. Anyone care to fill me in?

mjc1000
29-07-2006, 10:30
I think it was something aout a dark angel comander killing some one that a spae wolf wanted to or something like that and the fued carried on

Captain Loken
29-07-2006, 10:42
Russ charged into a battle that johnson had been planning for some time and fuged it up. Johnson was mad and the two began to fight. This went on for some time until Russ stoped and began to laugh at the whole situation. Johnson did not share in his sense of humour and sucker punched Russ, knocking him out. Then Johnson and his legion left. Needless to say the Wolves were mighty angry and the fued ensued.

Inquisitor Maul
29-07-2006, 12:29
You got it wrong there.

Russ and Johnson were besieging a fortress somewere. The guy who owned said fortress called Russ the Emperors lappdog and said he would feed his heart to his pet Grox. Russ, headstrong and proud as always, got veeery mad and demanded that the Dark Angels stand down while Russ assaulted the fortress.
Johnson had by this time painstankily scouted the fortress personly and made up his plans and refused to let Russ spoil those by charging headlong at the gates so he led the Dark Angels in an attack and carried the day while Russ could only watch and cry in rage when Johnson killed the Tyrant and won the day.

Afterward Russ came into the fortress were Johnson and the Dark Angels were and struck Johnson in the head. They wresteled around for a day and a night, neither gaining the upper hand untill Russ broke off and started to laugh. Johnson, who was slow to anger but slow to forgive, struck Russ unconsius and claim honour had been satisfied.

That's it basicly.

DantesInferno
29-07-2006, 12:37
The sequel fight allegedly occured amongst the ruins of Terra immediately after the Horus-Emperor fight and the arrival of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves at Terra. After fighting their way to the Throne and discovering the bodies of the Emperor and Sanguinius, both were consumed with grief. Jonson blamed Russ for arriving too late, but Russ would not respond to his goading, so Jonson snapped and struck out at Russ in rage, at the last moment realising the folly and turning his blow aside so that it only pierced one of Russ' hearts, not both. When Russ recovered, Jonson apologised and it was accepted.

EDIT: It's nice to see two fans of Konrad Curze's last words in a row, eh Inquisitor Maul? Ave Dominus Nox!

Inquisitor Maul
29-07-2006, 13:20
EDIT: It's nice to see two fans of Konrad Curze's last words in a row, eh Inquisitor Maul? Ave Dominus Nox!

What can I say, Night Haunter sure knew how to give cool quotes :D

ryng_sting
01-08-2006, 12:47
The sequel fight is apparently non-canon now. (Bad decision, but there you go.) The SW's and DA's now weren't fighting together at the time each legion decided to head for Terra. They just made the decision at roughly the same time. As did the Ultramarines, who were due to arrive before the DA's.

librerian_samae
01-08-2006, 13:08
when the hell has the spacewolf/ dark angel return to terra been retconned?!?!
Its been in the fullf since forever and stories from that journey make up most of the famous escapades from both primarchs.
(not to mention the first fight took place after liberating one of the worlds that they stopped at to liberate on the return to terra.)

Hellebore
01-08-2006, 14:09
when the hell has the spacewolf/ dark angel return to terra been retconned?!?!
Its been in the fullf since forever and stories from that journey make up most of the famous escapades from both primarchs.
(not to mention the first fight took place after liberating one of the worlds that they stopped at to liberate on the return to terra.)


This would be in the Horus Heresy art books - Visions of Death?


Russ was not a happy chappy, and so wanted to blow off steam by having a fight, Jonson on the other hand was not amused and so thought Russ' first attack treacherous.

After he got the aggression out of him, Russ sat down and started laughing at the humour behind it. Jonson was still not happy, and so punched him out while he sat their laughing.

Of the two, Russ was stronger, but Jonson faster.

Thus if Jonson could punch out Russ with one hit, I would imagine Russ could do the same (being stronger). It says something about him that his first hit wasn't hard enough to do just that, but rather incited a punch up.

I can see why Jonson wasn't amused, but he was a bit spiteful about it.

Hellebore

squigsnok
01-08-2006, 14:11
when the hell has the spacewolf/ dark angel return to terra been retconned?!?!


It was kind of overlooked when Sabretooth fudged the heresy fluff and pretty much left the Dark Angels out of it. So they put in a stop gap about the DA's being "somewhere" and bought Russ' attack on prospero closer to the siege of Terra.

Originally, the wolves attacked the Thousand Sons BEFORE the heresy erupted on the orders of the Emperor, and then went off with the DA's to the galactic rim following orders from the Warmaster. Then when they learned of Horus' betrayal through the "Seeing Crystal" both legions turned round and hot footed it back to terra. Russ thought they should stop off and liberate worlds on the way, but Jonson wanted to get back. They ended up staying around to fight daemons in various places, and so didnt make it back in time to save the Emperor. In this version of the fluff it was the imminent arrival of the DA's and SW's TOGETHER that forced Horus' hand and made him drop the shields on his ship as a challenge to the Emperor.

In the suspect Sabretooth fluff, the Wolves were attacking Prospero at pretty much the same time as the Istvaan massacre. This put the DA's at somewhat of a loose end, and the writer kinda brushed over their whereabouts. In this version of the fluff, it was the imminent arrival of the SW's and the Ultras (who in the original stuff were way out to the galactic east fighting the Word Bearers) that forced Horus' gambit. The DA's were "on their way, but it was unknown when they would arrive", or something like that. Basically, the author read Angels Of Darkness and took Astellans' thoughts as cannon fluff instead of the misinformed bias of a Fallen like they were intended.

Which route the black library will follow with the HH novels remains to be seen, but I'm hoping that they take the former route. It'd be a shame to get rid of such a brilliant piece of DA/SW background because of the drivvel sprouted in the sabretooth "fluff".

For more information on the DA's during the heresy, check out the Fortress (http://fortressofunforgiven.homestead.com/CH03_01HoU_004_A.html)

librerian_samae
01-08-2006, 14:18
Agreed, I grew up reading the origional version and loved it, it would be a shame to just dump it all because some card game writer got lazy and forgot about it:mad:

It does seem however with the ending of false gods that they are going to go with the older fluff.

Bombot
01-08-2006, 14:20
The DA's were "on their way, but it was unknown when they would arrive", or something like that. Basically, the author read Angels Of Darkness and took Astellans' thoughts as cannon fluff instead of the misinformed bias of a Fallen like they were intended.

I’ve not read Angels of Darkness but I broadly know the bit of the story to which you refer.

It’s better to leave it open to interpretation. And I think that little tale is better than a Russ / Jonson rematch. However, it works better if the DAs are arriving imminently, not ‘sometime after the Space Wolves and Ultramarines would have sealed the deal anyway’.

Hellebore
01-08-2006, 14:27
Angels of Darkness was written by Gav Thorpe, and the Horus Heresy ccg by Alan Merritt, the man in charge of GW's IP.

Thus, it is how they will portray the Dark Angels from now on.

Hellebore

Bombot
01-08-2006, 14:45
Angels of Darkness was written by Gav Thorpe, and the Horus Heresy ccg by Alan Merritt, the man in charge of GW's IP.

Thus, it is how they will portray the Dark Angels from now on.

Hellebore

What do you mean – the idea that they were third in line to reach earth, or the idea that they were almost traitors?

ryng_sting
01-08-2006, 14:56
when the hell has the spacewolf/ dark angel return to terra been retconned?!?!
Its been in the fullf since forever and stories from that journey make up most of the famous escapades from both primarchs.
(not to mention the first fight took place after liberating one of the worlds that they stopped at to liberate on the return to terra.)

Sabretooth. No one said the SW/DA rivalry (and its genesis) didn't happen. It's just that they weren't fighting in a joint campaign when they made it back to Terra. Horus's allies in the warp knew for certain that Russ and Guilliman's legions were only hours way, but they couldn't be more exact about Jonson's arrival. We know he arrived just after them anyway, and it's all a wee bit more plausible: Horus would have had nothing to fear from only two legions, especially with one as small as the Space Wolves. But throw the Ultramarines, even after the Battle of Calth, into the mix...

New fluff will take stock of everything about them, and since Gav is helping out with the new Codex, that should be pretty promising. Nothing much is changing. A few things are likely to be clarified (Plains World, the Deathwing's armour colour, etc. etc.) and a few fresh enigmas are likely to be added. The DAs have always been portrayed as the Unforgiven: the legion which saw some of its number teeter on the brink of Chaos. The only change is the distinction between 'good' and 'bad'. Or perhaps the ability to make the distinction.

librerian_samae
01-08-2006, 15:00
but the rivalry started due to the joint campaign and the difrences this inflamed between the two primarchs and their legions!

Sigh, they better not have changed that or poor old DA are left twidling their thumbs.

If this is the case it seems like they really are going to redo El'jhonson as the primarch that didnt quite fall in time...
...grumbles incecently...:mad:

ryng_sting
01-08-2006, 15:07
The point seems to be escaping you.

Russ and Jonson fought in several joint campaigns throughout the Crusade; no one is saying otherwise. But they weren't fighting at each other's side all the time. They fought apart, or fought in campaigns with the other legions. Prior to the Siege of Terra, Russ and the Khan were busy with the Alpha Legion, while the Dark Angels were doing something in the Eastern Fringe. (Horus had sent the Night Lords to engage the DAs and neutralise some Forge Worlds.)

Bombot
01-08-2006, 15:10
but the rivalry started due to the joint campaign and the difrences this inflamed between the two primarchs and their legions!

Sigh, they better not have changed that or poor old DA are left twidling their thumbs.

If this is the case it seems like they really are going to redo El'jhonson as the primarch that didnt quite fall in time...
...grumbles incecently...:mad:

I don’t think the start of the rivalry was ever said to be at the time of the Heresy.

And I don’t think they’re going to redo the Dark Angel fluff; I think they’ll leave it deliberately vague (quite right too). Mind you, the original story behind the split of the Dark Angels is lame anyway – it’s like the Horus Heresy redux.

squigsnok
01-08-2006, 15:11
If this is the case it seems like they really are going to redo El'jhonson as the primarch that didnt quite fall in time...


Which I'll admit would be a cool idea, if Jonson didnt already have cool background. I just dont want them to totally rewrite the background we love so.

librerian_samae
01-08-2006, 15:14
sigh,
I was just used to all the old fluff. Back then the fued began several months into the joint campaign that horus had sent the Dark angels and spacewolves on to keep them away from terra.

It was because of their styles of leadership and warfare being so against each other and the length of the campaign generating friction from working so closly together for an extended period of time that they finally got into the fight when liberating the planet.

Anyhow it dosnt really matter now so whats the point in arguing, things change.

Captain Stern
01-08-2006, 15:27
Why is it that every time some hack at Games Workshop changes the story (most of the time for the worst), there are people on this board who always feel the change is justified?

:mad:

librerian_samae
01-08-2006, 15:32
Indeed, but theres little point fuming over somthing you cant do anything about, I as always will just stick to the fluff that I enjoy more, at the momment this happens to be the old as it gives both chapters involved a lot more depth and character.

as a slight off topic side note.
Now that the space pups and dark angels didnt spend an ages liberating planets on the way back to terra we now longer have to justify how russ could single handedly take down a titan, which is a shame as i always loved that little story.:(

DantesInferno
01-08-2006, 15:36
Why is it that every time some hack at Games Workshop changes the story (most of the time for the worse), there are people on this board who always feel the change is justified?

Why is it that every time some writer at Games Workshop changes the story (most of the time for the better), there are people on this board who always feel the change is unjustified?

Seriously, Captain Stern, you're going to need to back up your assertions that the changes are for the worse.

I much prefer the darkening of the Dark Angels, as I think it more effectively explores moral ambiguities which are much more interesting than the original version.

Captain Stern
01-08-2006, 15:40
I don't particularly like the Dark Angels background. What I like is the stuff written about their adventures with the Space Wolves, written by Bill King. That's what's been changed.

I think some things speak for themselves. If I asserted the sky is blue, would I need to back it up?

Prodigalson
01-08-2006, 15:46
It's interesting, especially considering the most recent canon fluff we have received. That being the destruction of a Black Templar Crusade by the Dark Angels. The fact that they are comfortable with attacking other marines is heresy in and of itself.

It seems they are definitely moving forward with the idea that the DA will go to any length to hide their secret, even destroying or attacking other chapters to do so.

Bombot
01-08-2006, 15:48
I much prefer the darkening of the Dark Angels, as I think it more effectively explores moral ambiguities which are much more interesting than the original version.

Yeah spot on. About time GW reintroduced the concept of free will.

They could have wrenched it in to fit in with the old ‘fighting with the Space Wolves’ though (at least, broadly). But that’s minor really. Giving an alternative to the boring old Luther betrayal makes up for it methinks.

ArtificerArmour
01-08-2006, 16:47
So, the story of Russ being stabbed by Lion is no longer canon?

I always thought that the UM were last to reach Terra, being held up with the Alpha legion for most of the heresy.

Mechanicus
01-08-2006, 17:51
I'm sure it is still canon. What probably happened was that Guilliman and Russ arrive, head to Terra. Lion eventually arrives, Guilliman goes off somewhere else, Russ and Lion both want to go to throne room, they get there, find the Emperor's and Sanguinius' bodies, Lion accuses Russ of arriving too late and they fight. Just because the circumstances changed doesn't mean the actual events did.

DantesInferno
02-08-2006, 08:27
I don't particularly like the Dark Angels background. What I like is the stuff written about their adventures with the Space Wolves, written by Bill King. That's what's been changed.

I think some things speak for themselves. If I asserted the sky is blue, would I need to back it up?

You don't think there's a difference between asserting that the sky is blue and asserting that the new Dark Angels background is worse than the old?

If it does speak for itself, how do you take into account that I, and others in this thread, do not think that the old background is necessarily better? And how about the fact that we can provide reasons why we think that the old background is not necessarily better?

You're basically implying that I, and any others who agree with me, are ignoring the truth of a statement which is no less controversial than the assertion that the sky is blue.

If you're going to make such a claim, you could at least do us the courtesy of showing us why we're so undeniably wrong.

Bombot
02-08-2006, 09:02
I think red skies are prettier than blue ones ;)

BrainFireBob
02-08-2006, 18:33
The old DA background was like the American Civil War. I saw a poster describe it as "Luther's boring betrayal," and was appalled. The point is, the old fluff was "brother against brother, every brother fighting for what he believed to be right." The tragedy was the one set of brothers was deceived, and the other set failed to save them, and then failed to stop them, losing their homeworld into the bargain.

The new fluff? "Aw, heck, the DA are almost chaos anyway. Some just went and the others are embarassed."

The old fluff: The Space Wolves and Dark Angels, oil and water, raced to save their father and their home during the time of the heresy, forging not just a rivalry, but blending into a true bond of respect- one of the high notes of the heresy. Why? Because when the chips were down, they battered through the hellzone that had become the Imperium, instead of being completely sidetracked with their own concerns like the Ultras.

The new fluff: What DA? Those buggers are all Chaos-tainted anyway. But the Wolves and UM, those guys are allright.

I find the new stuff lacking. Making the DA darker is fine- but this didn't need to be incompatible with the events they were in before. I would, myself, have liked a "we fought honorably, and nobly, and for it were betrayed. Now, it is to the knife" theme. That would have darkened them admirably, given a reason, yet not stripped away facts of what traditionally has been stated occured.

The DA were the original Knightly Order chapter, just like the Wolves are Vikings, the Ultras are Greco-Roman legionaires, the WS are Steppes horseman, etc. Their honor is being forgotten in this newest version- their dignity. Even if they accepted heinous means, their sense of dignity should be there, perhaps a sense of regret.

Bombot
02-08-2006, 18:44
Well my interpretation of the two different stories is the polar opposite of yours. The ‘former’ fluff (which is still the ‘mainstream’ version, isn’t it?) was just Luther getting jealous and having a hissy fit. Not quite sure where "brother against brother, every brother fighting for what he believed to be right" comes into it.

The new version (/lie) is Luther’s half attacking Jonson’s half believing they were traitors, when they weren’t (well, not quite). That fits your summary better, I would have thought. Or am I missing something?

Quite agree that they could have tried harder to fit it around the existing fluff.

Lord Dante
02-08-2006, 19:06
I always found the old DA fluff to be the most boring of the lot in regards to luther etc...

BrainFireBob
02-08-2006, 19:18
Luther was motivated to betray for personal reasons.

He sold the other DA on having been betrayed by Jonson, left behind, possibly for being left out of the Heresy.

People are focusing a lot on Luther, and disliking his stake. That's fine. He was a master orator/demagogue, and sold to the other DA- that's different. That's where it gets dynamic. They were fighting for honor- they thought. The right- they thought. Luther's pride- in fact. Hence, tragic. Luther's the instigator, and hence important, but it shouldn't be seen from his point of view.

BrainFireBob
02-08-2006, 19:40
Let me put it this way:

Gav- understandably, considering how much he was involved in Inquisitor- is turning the DA into an inquisition-like organization; totally ruthless, faceless, and important for the identity of what they represent, not themselves.

The DA imagery comes from the Crusading Knightly Orders- secretive, honorable- and they serve the Imperium in a feudal manner, much as a pledged knight. They come when called, but they have their own obligations to acquit, and this is understood by the powers that be in the Imperium. Now, those powers may not like this fact, but they accept it.

Much as a feudal knight, they have duties to their lord, and duties to their position- and the lord is expected to understand when the knight must acquit them.

Take Piscina. Why were the DA there? If you recall, it's because one of their major gene-seed banks was on Piscina, and they were acting to protect that from the Orks.

Or take the EoT campaign. GW incorporated fan fluff. Owen Rees- yes, the WD one- was involved in an organization of DA players that chose to protect Caliban- and they justified it by having again, a massive geneseed bank there- which would bolster the ranks of Chaos marines, no? I have the strong impression that GW was taking it as given during the Eye write-up.

Think about the DA. How did they explain their Primarch disappearing, or half their Legion, or the death of their homeworld? They were attacked by traitors, and a great Chaos Champion felled their Primarch. How else was it explainable? Much like that feudal knight, they- a collection of individuals- are seeking to erase the stain on their honor. They are not just some faceless force that is simply willing to do "whatever it takes." They have their own responsibilities to acquit. They are acting toward a specific purpose and goal.

Making them like the Inquisition is stripping them of their motivation.

Bombot
02-08-2006, 20:11
The DA imagery comes from the Crusading Knightly Orders- secretive, honorable-

I see what you're saying. But, they are called the Dark Angels.

Maybe reimagining them is bringing them closer to what they always should have been. Any number of chapters can take up the honourable knight baton.

GW have to be careful though. If they make the Dark Angels totally self-serving then it becomes difficult to understand why the Inquisition hasn't ordered them to be eliminated.

I still think the old fluff is boring. It might be less so if it wasn't bolted onto the back of another betrayal story. Such stories regularly involve honourable dupes. That the Dark Angel one did doesn't make it exceptional.

BrainFireBob
02-08-2006, 20:25
Tastewise- I always felt it was poorly written, but good idea. If it had been written tighter, I think it would have been awesome. There's real potential in the old story- but as you said, it's written as "oh yeah, and here's another betrayal story."

I love the look of the Black Templars, and their new fluff as still being what the Marines were before the Codex. However, I feel they've edged out the Dark Angels- the original legions all reflected some notable military group in history, and one has the definite sense that was deliberate. If the Emperor was as old as stated, it even fits his Primarchs as visions of the new humanity story.

But the DA are being edged out of their identity, and I feel it's because the guys at the studio now aren't aware of the roots drawn on by their predecessors. They weren't just knights, they were a knightly ORDER- like the Templars, Hospitallers, or Teutonic Knights- with the Rule and the secrecy and the hidden rituals. Seems like the guys now see the DA as DA, and are ignorant of the warrior societies they were modelled on.

Heard of Till?
02-08-2006, 20:51
I'm sorry if this might be off topic but I didn't feel it was necessary to make a new thread about it. Anyway, does anyone know when Leman Russ disappeared?

Mechanicus
02-08-2006, 20:53
197 years after the Emperor was put in the Golden Throne. Assuming the throne was adapted within a year, that makes the date roughly 211.M31, I think.

Heard of Till?
02-08-2006, 21:05
Thanks, much appreciated.

DantesInferno
03-08-2006, 10:57
The old DA background was like the American Civil War. I saw a poster describe it as "Luther's boring betrayal," and was appalled. The point is, the old fluff was "brother against brother, every brother fighting for what he believed to be right." The tragedy was the one set of brothers was deceived, and the other set failed to save them, and then failed to stop them, losing their homeworld into the bargain.

The old background at no point suggested that every brother on both sides of the fighting on Caliban was fighting for what he believed in. I think it's reasonable to believe that there was a significant number of marines on both sides who weren't particularly attached to their causes.

Be that as it may, the newer version doesn't significantly differ on this point. It may suggest that Lion El'Jonson was hedging his bets somewhat, but he certainly wasn't letting your average Heresy Dark Angel know. The Dark Angels on the ground were likely equally inspired by their causes in both accounts, the newer background really only reflects on Jonson himself.



The new fluff? "Aw, heck, the DA are almost chaos anyway. Some just went and the others are embarassed."

Surely that could have equally applied to the older background?


The old fluff: The Space Wolves and Dark Angels, oil and water, raced to save their father and their home during the time of the heresy, forging not just a rivalry, but blending into a true bond of respect- one of the high notes of the heresy. Why? Because when the chips were down, they battered through the hellzone that had become the Imperium, instead of being completely sidetracked with their own concerns like the Ultras.

Instead of having *all* the Primarchs and their Legions firmly picking sides in the Heresy, I think it's much more interesting to have at least one case where it is more ambiguous. And frankly, Jonson with his streak of pragmatism and sense of caution, is one of the least likely of the Primarchs to have blindly picked a side.

And a quick note: I've never read any indication that the Ultramarines were completely sidetracked by their own concerns. Delayed by the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion, perhaps. But Guilliman isn't the type to have been doing anything other than getting back to Terra as quickly as possible - he simply didn't have enough imagination to have considered any alternatives to loyalty.



I find the new stuff lacking. Making the DA darker is fine- but this didn't need to be incompatible with the events they were in before. I would, myself, have liked a "we fought honorably, and nobly, and for it were betrayed. Now, it is to the knife" theme. That would have darkened them admirably, given a reason, yet not stripped away facts of what traditionally has been stated occured.

I'd just note that what you say is going to be the belief of 99.5% of the Dark Angel marines anyway! Remember that, as is the case with everything to do with the Dark Angels, only the very very highest ranks know anything near the truth.

And as Bombot points out, they have always been the Dark Angels. Anyone who wanted a chapter of knights in shining armour should have picked a different chapter.

Gondorian
03-08-2006, 12:36
Let me put it this way:

Gav- understandably, considering how much he was involved in Inquisitor- is turning the DA into an inquisition-like organization; totally ruthless, faceless, and important for the identity of what they represent, not themselves.

The DA imagery comes from the Crusading Knightly Orders- secretive, honorable- and they serve the Imperium in a feudal manner, much as a pledged knight. They come when called, but they have their own obligations to acquit, and this is understood by the powers that be in the Imperium. Now, those powers may not like this fact, but they accept it.

Much as a feudal knight, they have duties to their lord, and duties to their position- and the lord is expected to understand when the knight must acquit them.

Making them like the Inquisition is stripping them of their motivation.

You've described this very well.
The Angel of Darkness book, to me atleast, shows that the Dark Angels are a balance of ruthlessness in hunting the fallen and in serving the imperium.
The chaplain from said book shows doubt in some of his actions, is he being too ruthless, is hunting the fallen causing him to fail his other duties?

Those of you who have read the book know the final different opinions between the apothocary and the chaplain. This shows that for some Dark Angels there is a limit to what they will do to hunt their former brothers but also that for some Dark Angels, hunting the fallen is the only objective that must always be furfilled. So Dark Angels are a mix of light and dark for me.

Another side of the Dark Angels I liked in this book was that they are becoming too secretive. The Chaplain has his secrets, the apothacary his own and the techpriest even more. These secrets are what ultimately lead to the downfall of this group of marines.

VetSgtNamaan
03-08-2006, 21:31
For the most part it is easy to deal with the fluff, if there is stuff you do not like just ignore it. I mean obviously we all feel strongly about the issues and I know I am pretty fanatical about the Dark Angels too but I am content with the old stuff the way it is and not having read the angel of Darkness everyone seems to talk about I have no idea how it will change my views on the matter. As one of my friends says about dark angels "they are monks with a dirty little secret." Which is how I view them a monastic order much like the knights templar,which has a dark secret that stains the order. In my mind if they came clean about the split most likely they would have been given some millenia of penance and been under close watch by the inquisition. But in thier pride they failed to talk the correct route much like how the emperor failed in choosing Horus to be his warmaster the choice both of them made was the wrong one and it has lead to thousands of years of secrecy, slaughter and death. So that is what makes them interesting to me that they were the first they were the closest to the emperor in terms of gene seed and they were considered his army but like all humans some were just not up to the challenges of following in his footsteps.