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Elannion
30-07-2006, 16:59
Hey there, many fast cavelry units are allowed the option of light armour and sheild (thus making them not fast cavelry), silver helms are alowed to go without barding and maybe others too.

What i would like to see is a real reason to go with these units of light cavelry, which are a step up from fast cavelry but not as heavily armoured. For heavy troops like silver helms to go without bardin seems abit odd because high elves have high movement anyway and i think some can get round barding penaltys, +1 save is also too good to pass up, bretonnians also don't worry about barding penaltys and neither do cold ones to name a few, so barding movement penaltys generally isn't a problem. For a unit of fast cavelry to loose that status for armour it is generally a bad idea too because they are slowed down so much and loose their role. So what i would like to see would be a third class of cavelry one that doesn't have barding but is still generally heavily armed, so there would actually be a reason to take (or not take) these options, also i like the image of knights on unbarded warhorses and lighter but still poweful cavelry. Maybe this unit could suffer from less limitations that the heavy cavalry is now going to i dunno, it just annoys me that theres a really pointless option there.

Festus
30-07-2006, 17:10
Hi

The option is not pointless as you suggest:

Medium cavalry serves a distinctive role in the armies that can have them: Kislev, HE, DoW, VC, O&G.

They are not fast cavalry, but can still pack a punch in close combat, while often being just the important bit faster and cheaper than heavy linebreaker cavalry.

Greetings
Festus

TheWarSmith
30-07-2006, 17:52
I'd count centigors for BoC as medium cav too. It fills in the "average" role. They can be used as harassers but can stand their own against the lighter things where fast cav can't.

shadowprince
31-07-2006, 01:08
Umm silver helms have to have bardeing the option is for heavy armor and shields.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-07-2006, 09:41
Aye. It would make sense if there was the option not to have barding. As it is, the only reason not to go full armour on silver helms is points. There are no tactical benefits to be gained, as they are slowed by barding even if you use them in there lightes configuration. Hopefully something that will be changed in the new book.

Gazak Blacktoof
31-07-2006, 15:45
I always thought that was a deliberate ploy on the part of the designers to prevent them being used as cheap dragon princes.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-07-2006, 19:33
Problem is, it really doesnt give you any tactical options with them. As you gain nothing by not going all armoured(bar points). You could make heavy armour and barding a combined choice, so you will have a 4+ save at best if you go with the light option. Thats plenty to not just make them light dragon princes.

Arduhn
31-07-2006, 19:51
fast cavalry get the free reform, and act normally if they rally after fleeing as a charge reaction, but don't count ranks; non fast cavalry don't get a free reform, or the rally special rule but can count ranks (and in this case have a better armour save).

if you are using a small unit to charge war machines, march block, and then maybe hit flanks or rears, the fast cavalry option might be a good option. If you want a large, heavy cavalry type unit to support the infantry advance or other units of heavy cavalry, and hit hard, then you might want to take the extra options and get rid of the fast cavalry status.

chivalrous
31-07-2006, 21:32
Aye. It would make sense if there was the option not to have barding. As it is, the only reason not to go full armour on silver helms is points. There are no tactical benefits to be gained, as they are slowed by barding even if you use them in there lightes configuration. Hopefully something that will be changed in the new book.

High Elves already have Fast cavalry in the shape of Reavers.

If you want hard hitting cavalry with an 18" charge range use Dragon Princes (expensinve but you are paying for the longest heavy cavalry charge range in the game!).
Otherwise use Silverhelms that hit equally hard but mean you have to think a little more carefully about your movement when you're playing anyone else with a 16"+ charge range which, let me think, consists of High Elves, Dark Elves and Wood Elves, all of whom have a lower strength on the charge and much lighter armour.
EDIT:sentence deleted

sigur
01-08-2006, 00:18
...
Stop whining, Silverhelms are great.:rolleyes:

I haven't read anyone whining about Silverhelms in this thread. In fact, they are disturbingly formidable. To me, Heavy Cav (I agree, there isn't much point in not going for the fully armoured version) for a core unit in a non-brets army is a bit disturbing.

Nehcrum
01-08-2006, 00:53
I haven't read anyone whining about Silverhelms in this thread. In fact, they are disturbingly formidable. To me, Heavy Cav (I agree, there isn't much point in not going for the fully armoured version) for a core unit in a non-brets army is a bit disturbing.
Yet lots have them.....
Empire do (and those are awesome, with full plate to boot), DoW...

TheWarSmith
01-08-2006, 01:19
I'd add a CHEAP unit of heavy cav. as non bretonnian core. Chaos knights are superior to silverhelms except for their cost and speed.

Crazy Harborc
01-08-2006, 01:39
When I am going to go up against a mainly T3 army I'll play using unbarded cav (if my army choice has some). That (extra) inch of movement IS important, especially if my opponent forgets my guys have it:D

Maybe the fast cav perks will be improved,,,,,Soon we will know for certain.

Steel_Legion
01-08-2006, 01:46
i recently used fast cavalry for the first time in my DoW list and they rock! the fact they can whizz 16" about the place facing any way can be a real pain for alot of armys, one thing i dont like is the fact DoW cant really get medium cavelry (3-4+ saves) i think

Crazy Harborc
01-08-2006, 02:40
Two units of fast/light cav. Both with shields, bows and spears plus full command. Then I like DoW heavy cav..as long as they get to charge, that is. Um, they move 8" have a lance and save on a 3.

The light cav.....like S_T said can do a lot of harm. Just don't get them into a corner.

TheWarSmith
01-08-2006, 03:02
Don't DoW heavy cav save on a 2+? Or do their steeds not have barding?

chivalrous
01-08-2006, 10:02
I haven't read anyone whining about Silverhelms in this thread.

Just the moaning about compulsory barding slowing them down and how it should in fact be an optional extra, making them an even more formidable and 'no brainer' option.

I've edited the post anyway :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2006, 12:12
High Elves already have Fast cavalry in the shape of Reavers.

I'm not talking about fast cavalry, thats really a different unit type to medium cavalry)




If you want hard hitting cavalry with an 18" charge range use Dragon Princes (expensinve but you are paying for the longest heavy cavalry charge range in the game!).
Otherwise use Silverhelms that hit equally hard but mean you have to think a little more carefully about your movement when you're playing anyone else with a 16"+ charge range which, let me think, consists of High Elves, Dark Elves and Wood Elves, all of whom have a lower strength on the charge and much lighter armour.
EDIT:sentence deleted


You forgot Brets there;) There barding doesn't slow the horses down.

Anyway, I'm just saying that the way the options are set up, means there isn't really much choice in there. As the only thing that offers anything by not taking(barding) is mandatory.

It's not that Helms are bad, just that the options are, imo, dumb, as there isn't any reason at all not to go fully armoured.

chivalrous
01-08-2006, 14:34
It's not that Helms are bad, just that the options are, imo, dumb, as there isn't any reason at all not to go fully armoured.

Well, there is, you've said so youself, points.
Going unarmoured saves you about 25 points in a 5 strong unit, that's a champ and a standard (nearly), a warbanner or an extra model to bring the unit up to 6 strong

I'm still not sure what you really want out of this.

FC rule?- You'd make the Reaver choice obsolete, which the designers wouldn't allow.

Movement 9"?- You'd make Dragon Princes obsolete. (see above)
What would could you achieve with the much more expensive Dragon Princes that couldn't be achieved by keeping a Hero near or in the unit instead? We'd see much more in the way of HE cavalry armies than we do now.
With a guaranteed charge on anything except for Elven Fast Cavalry, armour suddenly becomes less important.

Save a few more points?- Having a charge of 18" is a huge advantage (as I have repeatedly pointed out:angel: ) I doubt very much that by removing barding you'd get any further reduction in points.

TheWarSmith
01-08-2006, 15:50
hehe, high elves complaining about their cav when they are the only army in the game with 3 good cav choices(other then Brets OBVIOUSLY)

neXus6
01-08-2006, 15:56
I already get that at the moment with my Fast Cav. I'm an Orc and Goblin player.

Goblin wolfriders, brilliant fast cavalry, but if you want take a unit of 16 with a big boss or 3, light armour they get a 4+ save have 4 ranks, standard, US 32, and the bosses drop a heap of okay strength attacks. all for the price of not being fast cav. any more. I love the option and the bit of flexibility it gives me. :)

chivalrous
01-08-2006, 16:41
hehe, high elves complaining about their cav when they are the only army in the game with 3 good cav choices(other then Brets OBVIOUSLY)

3? In fairness to High Elf players I'd say 2.
I don't think much of Reavers, but only because they have to pay far far too much for their bows and take up a special slot.

M9 fast cavalry is a great strength if you use it properly and you'll rarely see me without xbow toting Dark Riders.
More often than not, I'll have a Noble in there with a blade of Ruin, just to roadblock the opponents heavy cavalry, alas doesn't always work against Dragon princes.

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2006, 17:51
Actually, I don't play High Elves. I got a DE army, but haven't played High Elves for 8 or 9 years.

I'm not saying they should get the Fast Cavalry rule. I'm not interested in that. All I'm saying is that with the current way the equipment options work, there are no tactical choice to upgrading or not. Upgrading the armour makes the helms flat-out better. I just think it would be more interesting if there actually was some choice in the matter, and it was a question of what you wanted the unit to do.

And giving them the option of not taking barding wouldn't make Dragon Princes obsolete, as they still have several advantages. Like higher WS(and yes, it is an advantage), better armour, better access to magic items, higher leadership(at a very small cost actually).

So what I'm arguing for is more relevant/tactical choices. Rather than the pretty meaningless options you have currently.

Barding is the only piece of armour that might be worth not taking if you have the option. Yet, it's the only one made mandatory. I would just like to see it be made a tactical choice for the players.

As I suggested previously, make it a combined heavy armour/barding option maybe. So if you don't take the barding, you really only can have medium cavalry(4+ save).

As for the point reduction of not having barding. Realm Knights are one point more expensive than an armoured silver helm. For that he gets a ward save, a free champion and lance formation.
I really don't care what the price of a silver helm is, but they are far from the best priced cavalry in the game. They are decent, but fairly mediocre.

Crazy Harborc
01-08-2006, 20:43
They do retain the 9/18 inch move distances. I take shields AND light armour
once in a blue moon just to mess with regular opponent's minds a bit.:angel:


I don't normally add barding to my DoW heavy cav. The extra number for saving also means slower moving. I want and "need" that extra inch. I am VERY agressive with DoW heavy cav. They may not win the game for me. They DO stop/slowdown opponent's cav.

chivalrous
01-08-2006, 22:38
As for the point reduction of not having barding. Realm Knights are one point more expensive than an armoured silver helm. For that he gets a ward save, a free champion and lance formation.
I really don't care what the price of a silver helm is, but they are far from the best priced cavalry in the game. They are decent, but fairly mediocre.

I've purposely not mentioned Bretonnian knights as a comparison purely because of the context of the respective armies and the role of those units within that context.

What I will point out is that a Mounted Yeoman with light armour and a shield is only one points less than a naked Silver helm (and the same cost as a naked a Reaver) has a much lower Ld, WS, I and S on the charge and takes up a special choice although I conceed that they do have bows. Comparing points values is umm... pointless.;)

Elannion
02-08-2006, 14:49
Hello all


Umm silver helms have to have bardeing the option is for heavy armor and shields.

My appologise i was thinking of DoW cavalry and i remembered there was summit abit weird about high elf ones.

What i am really talking about here is cavalry options that take them out of the normal role. So silver helms with light armour instead of heavy, yeomen with light armour instead of none and such.

Gorbad says it when he said its just pointless options, which unless you really don't have the points for or you really do, theres no brainers not to go with.

It seems to me although they do have some uses, though i never tailor my army to other so that one to me is abit dubious, the problem is that they are designed to fill a certain role, and if you give for instance yeomen light armour and sheild, they become quite expensive for a combat troop (as they are not entirely designed for that purpose) and are still pretty vunerable, equally a silver helm naked (19pts) or with a sheild (21pts), is quite alot respectively being as again they are pretty vunerable, they are not designed to be running about with little protection. not taking the options sacrifices heavy cavalry alot and the only option that helps them is to not have barding, but alot of units do not get bothered by barding type things anyway (such as brets, silver helms, cold ones, boars), so other than a lack of points there is little stopping them and alot of bonuses to be gained to take the options. As i said earlier really fast cavalry pays alot of points for that rule, aswell as paying alot of points for their effective use of hit and run type tactics where they rarely stay in combat for long and its a big disadvantage to drop just to get a mediocre save, while still retaining the high points, very few units can pull it off effectively.


Medium cavalry serves a distinctive role in the armies that can have them: Kislev, HE, DoW, VC, O&G.

Some of those armys such as kislev don't actually get options to be much else other than medium cavarly though, so you can't entirely take them into account.

Just to make this clear i wasn't complaining about high elves, i think silver helms are pretty darn good, infact i am saying that because they are so good they have little need to go without barding (if they could) because even with it they are as fast as almost everybody.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-08-2006, 17:42
What I will point out is that a Mounted Yeoman with light armour and a shield is only one points less than a naked Silver helm (and the same cost as a naked a Reaver) has a much lower Ld, WS, I and S on the charge and takes up a special choice although I conceed that they do have bows.

Aye, but they are also fast cavalry, and can use the knights leadership I believe? But it's the fast cavalry rule that makes all the difference.



I've purposely not mentioned Bretonnian knights as a comparison purely because of the context of the respective armies and the role of those units within that context.[quote]
[quote=chivalrous]
Comparing points values is umm... pointless.;)

To some extent, yes it is indeed pointless. Although I'd say that Helms and Bret Knights mostly fill the same role. But thats not really the point anyway.

It's less about efficiency and point values and more about having meaningful choices for the player.