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Commander Ozae
30-07-2006, 18:36
Quite plainly i ask is the Emperor an idiot. I will be citing numerous examples from False Gods and Horus Rising so SPOILERS ALERT.

1. Why didn't the Emperor at least reveal the force of Chaos to his primarchs, this makes them much weaker when it comes to dealing with moral threats?

2. It is necessary to create an infrastructure and tax system to run the Imperium but didn't the Emperor realize not only the resentment that the Legions would show but the hatred this would inspire on recently conquered planets? In addition isn't he worried about High Lords seizing political influence and power from him?

3. Why doesn't the Emperor have his eyes and ears to watch his primarchs? Maybe not quite the Inquisition but i don't care how loyal they supposedly are, these guys need to be watched.

4. Why didn't the Emperor listen to Eldrad Ulthran and the eldar? Despite the fact that they told him his favorite son would turn against him the simple fact that they are warning him should have alerted the Emperor. Also, presumably Eldrad Ulthran and the Emperor know each other so why doesn't the Emperor listen to the supposedly best farseer in the galaxy?

The Emperor may be super-powerful and he may be ancient but he seems to have no comprehension of how to run an empire or any idea how to manage people. I'm just looking for opinions from other people and data to either support or destroy my argument.

neXus6
30-07-2006, 18:50
1. He did, I just doubt any of them thought they could possibly be seduced. Going by those 2 books, Horus knew, so did Magnus for sure, so I'd assume they all knew about its existence and to be watchful.
2. Wasn't the taxation bit started by the High Lords or whatever. Not to mention needing funding for all the stuff he was doing back on Terra.
3. Well you don't expect your sons to turn on you, guess the Emperor just wasn't the paranoid sort.
4. An alien, from a race known for their deceptive techniques that you for the most part are at war with, gets in touch and says ah your favourite sons going to turn against you. I'd be inclined to ignore it to.

Melchiah
30-07-2006, 18:59
For all teths and porpoesses the emperor is/was a god but in man form, and by many was just that still a man. Now like it or not humans make mistakes and the emperor screwed up royally.....get it?
Emperor....royallly.:p

nurgleman
30-07-2006, 19:15
I wouldn't say the emperor was a *****. He just trusted his primarchs and was busy doing something or another.

Anubis_the_Harlie
30-07-2006, 19:22
Hmm... The Emporer was not a *****... he just made a few fairly large mistakes... but he couldn't have forseen the outcome and he did just have the intrests of the Imperium at heart.

Tyron
30-07-2006, 20:04
You guys have got to remember the Emperor was a man, and thus running a galactic empire isnt easy, infact it would be beyond any of our abilities.

Before he set out to do the crusade he knew he didnt have much time and had to build the Imperium quickly. So he had no choice but to trust his sons completely (which is a bit silly).

However I think his version of the Imperium was going to be a utopia, but realistically wouldnt work in a war torn galaxy, which Gulliman saw and made a realstic Imperium that would survive.

Also this thread is really god about the subject, read it all, but its over a year old.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=967&page=1&highlight=horus+heresy

susu.exp
30-07-2006, 20:09
***** corresponds to an IQ between 51 and 70. Which I doubt would have been enough to create genetically modified super-humans.

Wraith
30-07-2006, 20:20
When you can see so far sometimes it's difficult to make out that which is right in front of you.


What you have to ask yourself is why didn't Eldrad know the Emperor wouldn't believe him -- some 'Farseer' eh?

Melchiah
30-07-2006, 20:27
What you have to ask yourself is why didn't Eldrad know the Emperor wouldn't believe him -- some 'Farseer' eh?
Maybe hes a "nearsighted" farseer? lol
Ok I'll stop

DantesInferno
30-07-2006, 21:22
Quite plainly i ask is the Emperor an idiot.
Well.....the thing is, the Emperor we see in our background detailing the Great Crusade and the Heresy does seem to be at times chronically inept, alienating his Primarchs and then putting them in charge of all his military with no form of monitoring. And yet, the Emperor which we are told about in the background of our background, the one who oversaw the creation of the Primarchs and Marines, the one who united Terra and conquered the Sol system, seems very competant indeed. Either the Emperor became a great deal less competant upon the discovery of the Primarchs, or the two pictures aren't really consistent.



1. Why didn't the Emperor at least reveal the force of Chaos to his primarchs, this makes them much weaker when it comes to dealing with moral threats?

I would suggest that the Emperor himself didn't know the magnitude of the threat posed by Chaos. You'll note that the Grey Knight program was only started after the full horror of Chaos became evident during the Heresy.



2. It is necessary to create an infrastructure and tax system to run the Imperium but didn't the Emperor realize not only the resentment that the Legions would show but the hatred this would inspire on recently conquered planets? In addition isn't he worried about High Lords seizing political influence and power from him?

The pre-Heresy Emperor does not seem to have a very good idea at all about what creates resentment within his Primarchs - look at his handling of Angron, Mortarion, and Lorgar in particular. This in itself would not be so bad, but he then leaves them in positions of power (controlling 1/20 of his military each), without any attempts to monitor them, even when he knows they are bitterly resentful.



3. Why doesn't the Emperor have his eyes and ears to watch his primarchs? Maybe not quite the Inquisition but i don't care how loyal they supposedly are, these guys need to be watched.

A certain amount of paranoia would seem to be essential for a would-be galactic ruler, you would think. Any dictator who hands over basically complete control to his second-in-command and makes absolutely no attempt to keep an eye on him would seem to be asking to be replaced.

Perhaps Horus saw the Emperor's ineptitude, and realised he was going to stuff everything up for humanity (indeed, at least 4 Legions were going to go renegade with or without the Heresy, it was only a matter of time before the disintegration of the Emperor's domain, at the rate he alienated his forces). Then Horus did the only thing he could to protect humanity - try to take over as decisively as possible.



4. Why didn't the Emperor listen to Eldrad Ulthran and the eldar? Despite the fact that they told him his favorite son would turn against him the simple fact that they are warning him should have alerted the Emperor. Also, presumably Eldrad Ulthran and the Emperor know each other so why doesn't the Emperor listen to the supposedly best farseer in the galaxy?

I think it's forgivable not to believe the warning of a xenos against your favourite son, but surely it should have alerted him to the possibility of disloyalty. This is only magnified when he receives Magnus' warning - now two of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy have warned him about Horus' loyalty. It would seem to merit some investigation at least.



The Emperor may be super-powerful and he may be ancient but he seems to have no comprehension of how to run an empire or any idea how to manage people. I'm just looking for opinions from other people and data to either support or destroy my argument.


If you're interested, I'd check out in particular <this> (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=967) thread, which discusses the issue at length.

Colonel_Kreitz
30-07-2006, 21:28
1. Why didn't the Emperor at least reveal the force of Chaos to his primarchs, this makes them much weaker when it comes to dealing with moral threats?


This is the point I take the most issue with. Simply put, it was because he had such enormous trust in them. Grand Admiral Thrawn, in the Star Wars universe, was a super-genius by any measure. Military incredible, capable to leading forces to magnificent victories. His downful was simply caused by his faith in his subordinates. In Thrawn's case, this is an easy thing to do. It's easy to assume that, after leading your men to victory after victory, that they will remain loyal unto death.

I would say it was even easier for the Emperor to make such an error. His Primarchs were his sons. They were engineered and born to be loyal to them and they all saw the Emperor as their Father. It is easy to place faith in the loyalty of one's children (and such faith is rarely misplaced), and that is precisely what the Emperor did. I do not think such an action is worthy of the title of idiocy.

ML Kurze
30-07-2006, 21:43
I'm guessing the Emperor thought the brother Primarchs would monitor one another. After all, they are described as a close family, who only started to resent one another when it became clear the Emperor was going to leave the front lines.

On taxes, it seems logical that the Emperor thought that the order 'to asses what the planet can pay' would be used on newly conquered worlds as 'how little can we take without upsetting the new government?'. However, as with all bureaucrates, someone high up the hierarchy but below the Emperor probably had no common sense and demanded everything that could be asked to be taken. With applying rules issued by a government, common sense is usually switched off.

As for trusting the xeno farseer... would you trust him when he told you 'owh and your brother's going to kill you'? Knowing that these guys lie as much as tell the truth to get an effect that suits their needs best (a nice quote from one of these Eldar: what is the sacrifice of a million of humans to save just a thousand of Eldar?). If Eldrad dropped by to warn me of something nasty about to happen, I'd make nasty on him and send him to Slaanesh, neatly giftwrapped with a big pink ribbon and call it even.

Chem-Dog
30-07-2006, 22:12
1. Why didn't the Emperor at least reveal the force of Chaos to his primarchs, this makes them much weaker when it comes to dealing with moral threats?

A little knowledge is dangerous, we don't know that the Emperor knew all that much about it, Horus certainly knew that the warp can change things (as happened with Jubal in the Whisperheads) but it takes a big step from knowing about a random destructive force of nature and accepting that this force is infact conscious and sentient, it's like finding out Cancer is fully aware of what it is doing or Thunderstorms are angry because they aren't being worshipped enough.


2. It is necessary to create an infrastructure and tax system to run the Imperium but didn't the Emperor realize not only the resentment that the Legions would show but the hatred this would inspire on recently conquered planets? In addition isn't he worried about High Lords seizing political influence and power from him?

Two things in this life are certain, Death and Taxes. It's not a matter of needing to be popular, worlds would be required to contribute tax to maintain the Imperium, the crusade would chew up a lot of money and the further out it goes and the more worlds it conquers the bigger the bill is going to be. I don't think that the Emperor would be concerned about anyone wresting power from him (as far as I am aware, the High Lords came after the Heresy), it would be easy to assume that the Emperor is as able to redirect and encourage as Horus is, if not more so, any would be userper would have to have an exceedingly strong will to maintain plans of a coup for any length of time, indeed it is his absence from the head of the crusade that seeds the first doubts in Horus's mind.


3. Why doesn't the Emperor have his eyes and ears to watch his primarchs? Maybe not quite the Inquisition but i don't care how loyal they supposedly are, these guys need to be watched.

The Emperor is a benevolent leader he belives his generals are driven by the same goals and ideals as he is why would he suspect them of being anything less than loyal, obviously this is his eventual downfall as his censure of Lorgar made him the single most dangerous enemy the Imperium has ever had. But then most downfalls are resultant of an unseen or unthinkable happening, before 911 who would have thought it possible that passenger aircraft would be flown into a skyscraper?.


4. Why didn't the Emperor listen to Eldrad Ulthran and the eldar? Despite the fact that they told him his favorite son would turn against him the simple fact that they are warning him should have alerted the Emperor. Also, presumably Eldrad Ulthran and the Emperor know each other so why doesn't the Emperor listen to the supposedly best farseer in the galaxy?

Trust not the Xenos. The Imperium knows the Eldar as an enemy, why would an enemy wish to tell you something like this other than to cause internal conflict? The Emperor's trust in Horus was without parallel.


The Emperor may be super-powerful and he may be ancient but he seems to have no comprehension of how to run an empire or any idea how to manage people. I'm just looking for opinions from other people and data to either support or destroy my argument.

I don't see any example of the Emperor having mismanaged people or resources, after any period of expansion comes a period of consolidation, this is what is happening when Horus Rising starts.

In short all the Emperor did wrong was trust the wrong guy.

Should have made Dorn the Warmaster.

Commander Ozae
31-07-2006, 01:06
After reading all the feedback (which is great) i think i see a possible theory, one which i believe. The Emperor yes is a genius but he doesn't understand enough of the human character (he's not exactly human himself) to manage an empire. He's probably so used to people throwing themselves to do anything he asks in his presence that he thinks this will happen even without him, and he thinks people will be selfless enough to work for the Imperium without gaining power for themselves.

Wazzahamma
31-07-2006, 02:34
I would say then, that it's an impossible job to not only manage a galactic empire, but as someone said earlier, a utopic empire. No, the Emperor couldn't manage it. But even though he "failed", he did a better job than anyone else ever could.

Colonel_Kreitz
31-07-2006, 02:35
After reading all the feedback (which is great) i think i see a possible theory, one which i believe. The Emperor yes is a genius but he doesn't understand enough of the human character (he's not exactly human himself) to manage an empire. He's probably so used to people throwing themselves to do anything he asks in his presence that he thinks this will happen even without him, and he thinks people will be selfless enough to work for the Imperium without gaining power for themselves.

This is actually a reasonable hypothesis. If the Emperor himself is selfless in his devotion to mankind and is loyal wholly to his people, he may not comprehend (or anticipate) the seeds of disloyalty or man's propesnity for corruption.

Icarus
31-07-2006, 02:57
I agree. I've always seen the Emperor as very much an Othello-like character. A genius when it comes to strategy, empire building etc. but in matters of the heart, especially related to his sons, he acts poorly at times and somewhat irrationally at others. His biggest failing is as a father, not a leader.

n00bLord
31-07-2006, 03:26
He should have had a wife... To look after all those naughty children.

Icarus
31-07-2006, 03:28
I can imagine that after thousands of years of being alive, I'd be sick of relationships too...

It could have worked though. Imagine Horus being told to sit on the Naughty Step!

Tyron
31-07-2006, 03:36
The Emperor yes is a genius but he doesn't understand enough of the human character (he's not exactly human himself)

He was born 8000 bc, you do the math :)

He was a human lol, he was just the most powerful psycher of mankind.

Melchiah
31-07-2006, 06:00
Doesnt it state some where that the emperor exiled himself in the mountains of terra to master his psyonic powers so that he might father lead mankind?
That being said you really cant get to know your people if you living under a rock.


He should have had a wife... To look after all those naughty children.

So ture. I remember when i said that months ago lol

ML Kurze
31-07-2006, 09:46
On portent, me and some other guys started a sitcom about the Emperor and his sons. 't Was a good thread and one I sorely miss. Misses Emperor also featured of course.
Back to topic, I think the Emperor was glad to finally have offspring on a par with him. To acknowledge that they could be corrupted was to acknowledge that his project had failed in that area.

heretics bane
31-07-2006, 10:41
Quite plainly i ask is the Emperor an idiot. I will be citing numerous examples from False Gods and Horus Rising so SPOILERS ALERT.

1. Why didn't the Emperor at least reveal the force of Chaos to his primarchs, this makes them much weaker when it comes to dealing with moral threats?

2. It is necessary to create an infrastructure and tax system to run the Imperium but didn't the Emperor realize not only the resentment that the Legions would show but the hatred this would inspire on recently conquered planets? In addition isn't he worried about High Lords seizing political influence and power from him?

3. Why doesn't the Emperor have his eyes and ears to watch his primarchs? Maybe not quite the Inquisition but i don't care how loyal they supposedly are, these guys need to be watched.

4. Why didn't the Emperor listen to Eldrad Ulthran and the eldar? Despite the fact that they told him his favorite son would turn against him the simple fact that they are warning him should have alerted the Emperor. Also, presumably Eldrad Ulthran and the Emperor know each other so why doesn't the Emperor listen to the supposedly best farseer in the galaxy?

The Emperor may be super-powerful and he may be ancient but he seems to have no comprehension of how to run an empire or any idea how to manage people. I'm just looking for opinions from other people and data to either support or destroy my argument.
the emporer kind of hedded the eldars advice,he brought the imperial fists back from the crusade to build him a fortress-palace and kept them to protect it, but from who???

Xisor
31-07-2006, 10:50
I'm a fan of the perspective, as posed earlier, that 'the two pictures are out of synch'.

One one hand we have the great infallible Emperor, the kind that has done almost everything right, on the other we have the Emperor who's a bit of a nutjob when he goes about doing things that, realisitically, he should know will alienate his closest allies...his own sons.

I'd propose that this is the same man, but the perspectives are incomplete. The basis for him being an idiot with the Primarchs is not idiocy at all, but skill. He *has* to gamble that the Primarchs will
1- Understand his perspective
2- Understand that he has greater things to be doing

What is he doing? Saving humanity of course. If Humanity can access/construct a webway of their own, they gain a shield against Chaos. There'll be no more horrors from ship's shields failing during warp transit. No more 'slow' Warp Travel. The Imperium would become a united empire where he could personally visit all his legions all across the Galaxy within a week of his own time.

Not only that, but once thats done he could *safely* turn his attention back to the Primarchs and the Astartes, once humanity is running itself again, he can do the old Japanese thing and turn his 'Samurai' (Astartes) into superhuman civil servants. Imagine that the Astartes *had* been reduced, that Horus hadn't grown dissafected, that only Magnus and Erebrus' Primarch(always forget the name :( ) had been disloyal. The Emperor could have had time to punish them *and* to correct the measures. To redo the 'psycho-conditioning' in the Astartes, to truly make the Imperium great.

Had the Imperium gained it's own webway-analogue, then the 'vast beuracracy' would have been speeded up a great deal. It may be a behemoth of administration, but it could still get things done.

Unfortunately though, the Primarchs were the ******, not the Emperor. Had they supported him *more* instead of doubting him, then it'd have worked out well. However, the Emperor still made mistakes...he did not take measures to reassure his Primarchs what was going on, he ended up leaving many out of the loop. It's still, I'd say, the Primarch's own faults that they grew dissaffected, but the Emperor isn't entirely blameless.

Xisor

Daemonslave
31-07-2006, 14:25
As someone who united Earth and conquered much of the galaxy within a 300 year time frame, you would think that he he is not a *****. But some things don't add up. As we all know, despite him fathering many children (the Sensei) he still seems to lack any parenting skills. He is harsh, when dealing with Lorgar, Angron and a few others, which shows a lack of diplomacy skills, yet he has somehow used these same oratory skills to form an army and conquer the Earth.

Also, during the siege of Earth, when Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge, the Emp unplugs himself from the golden throne, the only thing that is stopping daemons from pouring into the Imperial palace, deciding to sacrifice Malcador in his place in the slim chance that he can convince Horus to turn away from Chaos.

C'mon, this is the leader of humanity. To get to that position as a warlord, you are going to have to kill many people (which he did) and sacrifice a lot of people, including many that you know and are friendly with. When the shields lowered anyone normal would have launched nukes, or whatever weopons were still operational at the Vengeful Spirit.

To be such an intellegent man/god, (his knowledge was vast, both in terms of waging war and creating things) it makes you wonder whether this was not some part of a master plan.

Commander Ozae
31-07-2006, 14:41
First off, your using sabertooth fluff (which i don't like very much) whose authenticity has been doubted before. Also, in terms of Horus, he was the Emperor's favorite son, of course he would try to bring him back to the light. And besides, who doesn't want to see the Emperor Horus duel in Galaxy in Flames in October. Woot!!!

Three Headed Monkey
31-07-2006, 14:52
Also, during the siege of Earth, when Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge, the Emp unplugs himself from the golden throne, the only thing that is stopping daemons from pouring into the Imperial palace, deciding to sacrifice Malcador in his place in the slim chance that he can convince Horus to turn away from Chaos.


The Golden Throne was created after the duel with Horus. Almost all background sources detailing the Heresy state that his last instructions to Dorn as he lay dying were how to create the Golden Throne and to set him upon it.

The Golden Throne was specifically constructed as a stasis chamber / life support system for the dying Emperor.

Jim
31-07-2006, 15:03
I agree with previous posts regarding The Emp's being on the one hand amazing (conquer the known galaxy) and on the other shortsighted (slapdown your kids so they hate you)...I think that that he was testing the Primarchs..kind of 'pushing' them to see if any would break and fail him...maybe he got more than he bargained for...or maybe he had foreseen the Heresy and guided events towards it actually happening...Because of the Heresy the golden throne was created and he now lives forever as the object of an entire galaxies worship...pretty good yes???

Eisen
31-07-2006, 15:30
The idea that the Golden Throne is the best possible outcome says that any of the other outcomes the Emperor foresaw were worse; that is, they ended in his defeat. That doesn't match up with "There is still good in him!" but seems a lot like a last-ditch measure that he'd been considering in case of this very thing. Perhaps, rather than the benevolent god-figure that we're used to considering him, the Emperor is actually a ruthless, draconian Puritan minister of a father-figure, and his eventual retreat into the Imperial equivalent of Hitler's bunker is right in keeping with this.

Daemonslave
31-07-2006, 15:51
First off, your using sabertooth fluff (which i don't like very much) whose authenticity has been doubted before. Also, in terms of Horus, he was the Emperor's favorite son, of course he would try to bring him back to the light. And besides, who doesn't want to see the Emperor Horus duel in Galaxy in Flames in October. Woot!!!

Well despite it being craply written, it is officially recognised as canon.:cries:

As for Emp/Horus duel, it's not gonna be in Galaxy in Flames. This book is going to be dealing with the events of Istvaan. It's not going to be the next book, either, Flight of the Eisenstein, since by the sounds of it, that describes captain Garro's escape.

Since there are supposed to be nine books in total, the Emp/Horus duel will probably be in the last.

Khaine's Messenger
31-07-2006, 17:05
1. Why didn't the Emperor at least reveal the force of Chaos to his primarchs, this makes them much weaker when it comes to dealing with moral threats?

I was under the impression that the Big E thought knowledge of the Chaos Gods would have undermined his position as a secular ruler, which was why all of his experiments regarding warp phenomena were either "mere coincidence" or very closely guarded state secrets for the same reason people jump up and down nowadays about US government conspiracies to hide the existance of UFOs. The biggest danger of the Chaos Gods at the time was not the Chaos Gods themselves, but the visceral reaction mankind would have to knowledge of their existence, as Horus commented to Loken (not on the Chaos Gods specifically, of course...just "things"). That's why the whole shebang is presented as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" proposition--if you admit there are UFOs, then you admit weakness in the face of a potentially superior enemy at a time you have no means of defending against, and at the extremes you might turn your culture into a police state constantly worried about the coming of the UFOs (which may never come)...but if you deny the existance of UFOs, you'll get no knowledgeable help from the public when the UFOs show up to conquer the planet.* But at least the public at large won't be worrying and frantically asking you to Do Something...because these things do take time.


In addition isn't he worried about High Lords seizing political influence and power from him?

I doubt he was worried about that. His most trusted political lieutenant, Malcador the Sigillite, was a being perfectly capable of ruling as the Emperor's Regent and did not possess the will to usurp the Emperor's rule, as it seems the Sigillite was a man very greatly bound by the rule of law rather than personal power...in otherwords, lacking the spine necessary for decisive action in his leader's absence when cosmos-shattering events occur, but presenting a powerful grasp of a political (not military) situation nonetheless.


3. Why doesn't the Emperor have his eyes and ears to watch his primarchs? Maybe not quite the Inquisition but i don't care how loyal they supposedly are, these guys need to be watched.

I'd hoped the Custodes would be bent to this purpose, but the late-to-the-game Chaplains were the closest thing to this, and none of them had Primarch-smiting power.


The Emperor may be super-powerful and he may be ancient but he seems to have no comprehension of how to run an empire or any idea how to manage people.

I think it was spoken best in Horus Rising when one of the lodge members (don't remember who) said directly that the Emperor knows no equal, and thus cannot know brotherhood--and so his declaration that any "lodge" activity be purged was ignored, just like how people reacted when he fervently denied his divinity. There's that fundamental disconnect with how the Emperor wants things to go and how the people prefer to perceive things, and that does suggest the Emperor really didn't know how to manage people.

After all...he hired and sired people to manage other people and just handed them the reigns of government, making it look like he hoped they would tick along like clockwork rather than be people.

* Translation--"police state" = Imperium, "UFOs" = Chaos Gods

Stahlgeist
31-07-2006, 22:20
The idea that the Golden Throne is the best possible outcome says that any of the other outcomes the Emperor foresaw were worse; that is, they ended in his defeat. That doesn't match up with "There is still good in him!" but seems a lot like a last-ditch measure that he'd been considering in case of this very thing. Perhaps, rather than the benevolent god-figure that we're used to considering him, the Emperor is actually a ruthless, draconian Puritan minister of a father-figure, and his eventual retreat into the Imperial equivalent of Hitler's bunker is right in keeping with this.


That's what the Voices WANT you to think!

All things considered (ie he ended up defeating four Chaos gods, his most powerful son, and roughly half the Astartes and most of the AdMech), he done OK in the end, and the Imperium still abides 10K years later. Compare that to the length of any other human civilization.

Commander Ozae
31-07-2006, 23:08
I recall reading a piece of fluff somewhere that the Emperor couldn't see what would happen in the heresy, especially his duel with Horus because his prescience didn't extend that far. It was clouded.

Demonslave, where did you find out that there will be nine books in the series? I thought it was going to be a trilogy but i could be mistaken. Just asking.

DantesInferno
31-07-2006, 23:37
They don't seem out of synch to me. On one hand the Emperor is a man, and can only do so much. He needs agents to carry out his wishes. On the other hand the Emperor is a good, and knows the big picture. His actions, as described by pulp science-fantasy writers, seem consistent with that tension between knowing all, and actually being relatively powerless in the face of it.

I don't think this is the inconsistency that Xisor and I (assuming he was referring to my earlier post with the 'out of sync' comment) were referring to. Basically, the Emperor we hear talked about at the start of the Great Crusade (ie his actions in uniting Terra, conquering the Sol system, designing the Primarchs and Marines etc) seem like the actions of a competant leader, but the actions we actually see during the Crusade and the Heresy appear to be those of a leader who doesn't have a good idea of how to run things.

It's a bit like the character of Antony in Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra. We're constantly told that he's this great hero at the start, yet during the play itself when we actually see him act, he appears to be a total ****.

Daemonslave
31-07-2006, 23:42
Demonslave, where did you find out that there will be nine books in the series? I thought it was going to be a trilogy but i could be mistaken. Just asking.

On the Black Library forums. Marc Gasgoine (the head guy of BL) said there would be an opening trilogy exploring how the legions turned to Chaos, and a closing trilogy focussing on the siege of Terra, with a number of books in between. But since then he has said that there will probably be only three in between (so there could be more *crosses fingers*).

He also stated that following this series there will be another series focusing on the Harrowing (where the traitor legions are driven into the Eye of Terror). Strange - I always thought it was caused the Scourging, but what do I know?

DantesInferno
01-08-2006, 00:26
DantesInferno:

No, it's the same 'inconsistency'. You hit people with an axe in one situation, you're acclaimed a hero, and in another you're incompetent or worse.

In this case, it's the difference between hitting someone with an axe, and later failing to hit anything at all.

La'mour Le Breton
01-08-2006, 05:44
i dont think the emperor is one man. i think he is many men (powerful men) in one body, i think the fluff was origionaly that he was created from all the technoshamans on earth combining themselves into one person, or puting all their life force into an already existing person, so i think the emperor had multiple personalities, or was a pychitso(spelling?) so he wasn't a ***** just nuts. you'd be nuts too if you had to conquer a galaxy filled with deamons and aliens

heretics bane
01-08-2006, 14:21
but not if you had bio-enhanched warriors to help you, and did'nt he create the primachs? he would have to be pretty smart to make a gaint bio-enhanced warrior ....would'nt you????

Captain Optimus Metallus
01-08-2006, 15:48
4. Why didn't the Emperor listen to Eldrad Ulthran and the eldar?

Because no such thing ever happened.


Despite the fact that they told him his favorite son would turn against him the simple fact that they are warning him should have alerted the Emperor. Also, presumably Eldrad Ulthran and the Emperor know each other so why doesn't the Emperor listen to the supposedly best farseer in the galaxy?

I'd say the fact that Eldrad hadn't even been born yet would be a major detriment.

Eldar, even Farseers, don't live for over 10,000 years (At least not the Craftworld and Exodite variety. Dark Eldar are another matter, but Eldrad isn't a Dark Eldar). The only source for that was from some Eldar Ranger blowing smoke up the ass of an Inquisitor who was interrogating him. And given the circumstances, I'd imagine the Ranger would've said just about anything to **** off the Inquisitor. There is no evidence whatsoever that Eldrad was even a twinkle in his granddads eye during the Horus Heresy, much less alive and being a Farseer.

Lord Zarkov
01-08-2006, 17:15
No Eldrad was definitly alive, he went to Terra and had a long chat with the Emporer about the warp and the webway and he mentiond to the Empoere that Horus would betray him

Mortare
01-08-2006, 18:11
Where was that reference? Not saying its not there, just not something I have come accross

ML Kurze
01-08-2006, 19:35
Where was that reference? Not saying its not there, just not something I have come accross
Third edition Eldar codex.

Captain Optimus Metallus
01-08-2006, 19:55
Just a single mention about Eldrad being alive during the Horus Heresy and warning the Emperor. And it wasn't the omniscient third person narrarator saying this. It was an Eldar Ranger being tortured by an Inquisitor who said this. And all in a back-handed attempt at trashing the Emperor to **** off the Inquisitor. Of course, if there're any more mentions, I'd be interested in hearing about them. But to take the word of an Eldar Ranger in the middle of being tortured over what we do know, that Eldar don't live to be 10,000+ years old? Ehh, no.

Lord Zarkov
01-08-2006, 20:22
There was definitly a mention somewhere of Eldrad going to Terra and having a chat with the Emperor, Might have been the HH books but I can't remember

archangels uk
01-08-2006, 20:41
Personally i would say the emp was more of a father figure (in his head at least) to the primarchs for many reasons, one being they are the closet humans in power to him, he created them, they were probably the ultimate goal for the emp etc etc

thus his failure as a father (reminds me of marcus aurelius)

Fulgrim's Gimp
01-08-2006, 21:43
Could it not be that the Emperor had the same emotional makeup as the RT Sensei in that he did not have any negative emotion which the Chaos powers could feed on. This may have made it extremely hard for him to understand the anger,frustration and alienation which affected his Primarch sons ? The Scourging is possibly what Loyalists call the Traitor's retreat to the Eye while the Harrowing would be what the Traitor's call it, makes sense, no ?

ML Kurze
01-08-2006, 21:55
But to take the word of an Eldar Ranger in the middle of being tortured over what we do know, that Eldar don't live to be 10,000+ years old? Ehh, no.
It is confirmed that Eldrad is that old. It's in Gordon Rennie's Shadow Point novel, in the Heroes and Villians bit and the 13th Black Crusade stuff (if I remember correctly). Can't pinpoint it specific though, but at least it's canon that Eldrad's as old as the Imperium. Well, at least he used to be, before he got turned into a Black Stone plaything or something along those lines.

Fulgrim's Gimp
01-08-2006, 22:05
And slightly tangential Asdrubael Vect is also at least 10k years old by his own admission. Not that he'd lie, not Asdrubael.

ML Kurze
01-08-2006, 22:08
Perhaps a new thread is needed to discuss how old Eldrad is.

Returning back to the topic: Is the Emperor a good father or should his children be taken from him?

Stay tuned, but first these messages :p

I'm still voting a good father, but not a very good judge of character. Or not paranoid enough.

Commander Ozae
01-08-2006, 22:38
He's probably not used to being in a position of power and the paranoia that comes from that, although if he really is thousand's of years old he should be able to use historical references.

DogmaRaider
02-08-2006, 16:35
Just as a comical sidenote: I seem to remember a reference from Dr. Morbius in "The Forbidden Planet" about how a commanding officer doesn't need brians just a good loud voice..... :D

ryng_sting
03-08-2006, 13:26
If Eldrad's account is true, then his message comes very shortly after the Fall - possibly even before the Eldar path was fully laid out, including the Path of the Seer. But it depends on what you take 'warning' to mean - did he send a vision straight to his mind, or did he just send a message for someone else near to him to relay, which the Emperor never bothered to read?

Remember that Vect lives in Comorragh, where time doesn't pass as in the real world.

Commander Ozae
03-08-2006, 15:49
Dogma, good point. I'll bet the Emperor has a nice little squeaky voice so that's why Horus didn't respect him. LOL

Sgt Biffo
03-08-2006, 16:16
Dogma, good point. I'll bet the Emperor has a nice little squeaky voice so that's why Horus didn't respect him. LOL

What's to say Horus didn't recieve the "Silly voice" choas attribute during the RoCStD era in which he first appeared? Or "Silly Walk" or "Pin Head":wtf: or "Alcoholism" for that matter... and why stop there "Walking head", "Limb Loss", "Crown of Flesh-eyestalks" and "Overgrown Body Part-feet".

I can just see a grapfruit sized head covered in blinking eye-tenticles honking out "Let the galaxy burn" as it stands majesticly astride its size 312 feet!

Sounds to me like the Emperor got off lightly!!!:cheese:

Melchiah
03-08-2006, 16:50
Dogma, good point. I'll bet the Emperor has a nice little squeaky voice so that's why Horus didn't respect him. LOL
When star wars was remade for DVD there deleted sences one of which has the test vioce for vader, his voice is so squeekie and its english acsent its awesome its applies to about everything.
The ironic thing is that any parant knows that most children resent they parants at some point in time, like say in a chirstian family, go gothic. Some kids get the gall to strike at there parents. The Emperor really could of used "fatherhood for dumbies"

Sgt Biffo
04-08-2006, 05:36
The ironic thing is that any parant knows that most children resent they parants at some point in time, like say in a chirstian family, go gothic. Some kids get the gall to strike at there parents. The Emperor really could of used "fatherhood for dumbies"

I think the Heresy was a bit more serious than a teenage hissy fit.

Fatalis
06-08-2006, 07:45
Im some ways, The Emperor is not a *****, but just a bit arrogant. He would not take advice from the eldar since he did not fully trust them. As well, the primarchs were his favoured sons. He did not believe that his sons would turn against him, let alone his most trusted son. Despite being warned by many people, including Magnus, he was arrogant and trusted to his own sights. The Emperor could see the future no doubt, but he could not see past his demise. So he did not see it coming at all.

Kage2020
07-08-2006, 02:21
Always seemed to me that the Emperor was the character equivalent of a pet, i.e. it takes on the characteristics of its "owners". 'Nuff said. ;)

Kage

Daemonslave
07-08-2006, 17:48
Always seemed to me that the Emperor was the character equivalent of a pet, i.e. it takes on the characteristics of its "owners". 'Nuff said. ;)

Kage

Is that sneaky and manipulative or stupid and ignorant? ;)

Daemon king Mad Dog
07-08-2006, 19:12
First thignsa first, the emporer is stupid. just not for the reasons you said.
1. He gave his sons too much power, that was just calling out for a disaster!
2. He didn't consolidate his position- in the heresy thousands of worlds where destroyed because there wasn't enough defence.

He should of taken a small empire, then built up the armies and walls and sheilds to defend that, before setting off into an imperialistic crusade such as taking the galaxy!

He co- messed up!

Daemonslave
07-08-2006, 19:45
First thignsa first, the emporer is stupid. just not for the reasons you said.
1. He gave his sons too much power, that was just calling out for a disaster!
2. He didn't consolidate his position- in the heresy thousands of worlds where destroyed because there wasn't enough defence.

He should of taken a small empire, then built up the armies and walls and sheilds to defend that, before setting off into an imperialistic crusade such as taking the galaxy!

He co- messed up!

Did he? The race that he was protecting for so long continues to endure and is still reletatively strong. There exists more safeguards to prevent Chaos, such as the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, and last but not least, the Emperor is now worshipped by billions/trillions throughout the Imperium, empowering him as he becomes a new warp god.

Daemon king Mad Dog
09-08-2006, 08:26
Relatively strong? theres only 2 relativly strong races in the universe! orks and Tau! eldar have been ruined and (so it says in the ork codex) humanity is on the road to ruin! Their defneces are so thin you couldn't measeure it!

sorry for the spelling mistakes.

Pain
09-08-2006, 09:23
The Tau are a local power at best. In Relation to the greater powers like the Imperium, the Eldar, Orks, Chaos etc. they're like a drop in the ocean.

Rodman49
10-08-2006, 01:37
Did he? The race that he was protecting for so long continues to endure and is still reletatively strong. There exists more safeguards to prevent Chaos, such as the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, and last but not least, the Emperor is now worshipped by billions/trillions throughout the Imperium, empowering him as he becomes a new warp god.

I was always under the impression that the Emperor was already a warp entity - something akin to the power of one of the C'tan or the collective Chaos gods. Additionally I had believed that Emperor's semi-life state on the Golden Throne actually hurt the Imperium, as it is the only thing from keeping the Emperor from being reborn in full capacity.

The Eldar insulting the Emperor is somewhat funny. Any Eldar psyker is no match for the Emperor, maybe some of the greatest Eldar psyker's could have been equals of the Primarch's, but not of the Emperor is more in class with the Slaan/Old Ones. (Think Emperor creates Space Marines, like the Slaan created the soldier race of the Eldar).


Relatively strong? theres only 2 relativly strong races in the universe! orks and Tau! eldar have been ruined and (so it says in the ork codex) humanity is on the road to ruin! Their defneces are so thin you couldn't measeure it!

sorry for the spelling mistakes.

What? The largest and most powerful races would have to be the Tyranids, Humans, and then Orks. As stated earlier Tau are a drop in the ocean compared to them, although I would have to say they are "on the upswing" just as much as Tyranids.

Commander Ozae
10-08-2006, 02:56
Tau don't have the numbers or advanced FTL tech to create an empire on the scale of the Imperium. The Tyranids are powerful but we haven't seen what they're fully capable of. The orks are the largest faction but they're fragmented and disorganized and fight each other more than any others. The eldar are too few and far between. Of all the races, humanity has the best hope because they're more unified, powerful, numerous, and have the tech to achieve galactic domination. That's not to say they will its just they have the best chance.

La'mour Le Breton
10-08-2006, 23:20
i think its funny.. im reading Horus Rising, and the emporer refused any worship of himself what so ever. he wanted no one to believe in any gods/spirts/religion because he thought those things were debased and stupid. he sends horus out to complete the crusade and goes back to terra to fortify his palace with the imperial fists,thought to be the only legion that could build a fortification that could withstand the assault of the Luna Wolfs. I think He knew horus would betray him, he knew that he would end up in the golden throne. He probably even planned it all along. by outlawing religions, the only person that humanity could worship (and had already begun to worship) was in fact himself. The emperor fooled every one, hes soo crazy and stupid he transends to being genius. He was truely immortal so for him to attain godhood he would have to die (an impossible thing) So he set up a truely Tzneechian(sp?) plan in order to attain godhood. he wasn't thinking about the present, but so far in the future, he would have to be mad. He Let Horus Kill him because horus was the only person that could. He had already gave the imperium the territories they needed to survive for the next millenias through the great crusade.

Kage2020
10-08-2006, 23:56
Is that sneaky and manipulative or stupid and ignorant? ;)
:p Erm, I have no idea. What do you think!? ;)

Kage

Malphax
11-08-2006, 03:49
Well according to several sources his "last dying words" were to Rogal Dorn instructing him on the construction of the Golden Throne. So he apparently wanted it, and believed that being a cosmic flashlight was the best thing for the Imperium. I find it entirely possible that his rejection of religion blinded him to the fact that dying and ascending as a Chaos God (or whatever he'd be) would be a much better way to serve mankind.