PDA

View Full Version : Autobreak from fear in 7th Ed



gortexgunnerson
31-07-2006, 16:02
Hi everyone

Today I was having a look through the 7th Edition book and decided to check a few of areas I though clarification would have been included. One of these is the autobreak rules.

I think the intension is of the new rules is to have you only break when you are outnumbered by the fear causers, not just out numbered.

However the wording is outnumbered by the total fear causeing units in combat. Now I think this will not result in the desired outcome as listed above as the case of mixed fear causing units and terror leading fear causing units has not been answered. The 2 examples which spring to mind are salamanders adn wraith lieading skeletons.

Now salamanders are a fear causing unit, a 3 packs has unit strength 18 but only 9 of which are fear causing. Under the umbrella of unit strength of fear causing unit it will count as 18 for the purpose of autobreak.

Similar problem with terror causing monster in a fear causing unit when fighting another fear cauing unit.

e.g. 29 skeletons lead by a Wraith against 4 Orges. Now to the orges the skeleton unit is a fear causing unit due to the terror causing wraith, and hence can be autobroken.

That is how I see the new rule but am hoping am wrong as is a silly situation. What is wrong with a rule that just compares total unit strength of fear causing models! It not that hard (but I suppose you'd hear arguements about non fear causing riders etc etc!)

Just wondering if my interpretation of fear causing units behond units where everyone causes fear are correct and hence will result in the rules been payed as above

DeathlessDraich
31-07-2006, 16:23
7th?? How did you get a copy?:evilgrin:

A mistake already? How many more? Will it ever end?:D

Festus
31-07-2006, 16:40
Hi

You are mistaken as far as I am aware of the new rules:

The change is:

Now (6th) you checked for fear causing on a unit vs fear causers basis ( 20 Skellies fighting 2 or more units of 18 Imperials each could make them all autobreak. One Skelly unit of this size is now not enough to autobreak, as the US now is 20:36).

Now it seems that you check on a combat basis...

Avian
01-08-2006, 12:21
Now salamanders are a fear causing unit, a 3 packs has unit strength 18 but only 9 of which are fear causing. Under the umbrella of unit strength of fear causing unit it will count as 18 for the purpose of autobreak.

<snip>

e.g. 29 skeletons lead by a Wraith against 4 Orges. Now to the orges the skeleton unit is a fear causing unit due to the terror causing wraith, and hence can be autobroken.
I don't know where you get the idea that having a handful of Fear / Terror causing models in a unit makes the unit into a Fear / Terror causing unit. This is what you are basing your argument upon and I would like to know where you get it from.

TheWarSmith
01-08-2006, 16:16
Also, am I getting a sense that you're thinking that fear/terror causing would not combine with each other?

If a dragon is in combat along with a 20 strong fear causing unit, then the "Fear Unit Strength" would be 26(i think a dragon is 6?)

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2006, 16:31
The Dragon is actually 7.


I think the intension is of the new rules is to have you only break when you are outnumbered by the fear causers, not just out numbered.

Thats how it is currently. So that can't be the difference. It sounds like the big difference will be that you total your entire US, against the entire fear causing US, rather than one unit at a time against the total of fear causing US. If that made any sense at all :p

Festus
01-08-2006, 16:45
Hi

The Dragon is actually 7.


A Dragon is actually 6, a still ridden Dragon is US 7 (Is the WE one US 8, then?)
http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/base-chart/1/

Greetings
Festus

Joe Cool
01-08-2006, 17:51
Just a small addition/clarification; there is no autobreak in 7th edition. The rule "Insane courage", or whatever the name is, states that double ones pass any break test. This also applies when outnumbered by fear causing enemies. Cool, huh? :rolleyes:

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2006, 18:45
Hi


A Dragon is actually 6, a still ridden Dragon is US 7 (Is the WE one US 8, then?)
http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/base-chart/1/

Greetings
Festus

Yes, my mistake. Thats what I ment. It's us 7 with the rider.

gortexgunnerson
01-08-2006, 23:45
I don't know where you get the idea that having a handful of Fear / Terror causing models in a unit makes the unit into a Fear / Terror causing unit. This is what you are basing your argument upon and I would like to know where you get it from.

Well if a unit of skeletons lead by wraith charges a unit of orges it couunts as a charge from a fear cauing unit in that they must take a fear test. It is a argued point that the rules have never truely definaed that you must be out numbered by fear causing enemy not just outnumbered by an enemy you fear.

In answer to if a uit lead by a "handful of models" counts as causing fear

P82 "It sometimes happens that an enemy unit of ordinary troops lead by a mighty hero or a monster which causes fear or terror. In this situation, test for fear/terror if a charge will result in the charged unit fighting the hero or monster in question"

Then combined with

P81 "If a unit is charged by an enemy it fears then it must take a test to see if it can overcome that fear...

If the unit fails its test but its unit strength happens to be lower then the charging enemy, it will flee."

Unit lead by a Wraith against fear causing unit, or unit salamander unit both cause fear. Hence the receiptent of charge fears the unit. Outnumbering by the rules based on unit strength of chargers not fear causing models! Hence can both cause auto break in this situation

Festus
02-08-2006, 06:47
Hi

This is a very wide stretch of rules lawyering.

GW always made it very clear that it is only the models which actually cause fear in the relevant situation (so no Skellies vs. Ogres) to be counted.

If I am an Ogre, the Skellies do not cause fear for me, even if led by a Wraith, whom I fear...

Festus

Avian
02-08-2006, 08:32
Unit lead by a Wraith against fear causing unit, or unit salamander unit both cause fear. Hence the receiptent of charge fears the unit.
Nonsense.
That does not equate a Fear-causing unit. The character section terms it "a unit containing a Fear/Terror causing character" and says that you only need to test if you would end up fighting said character.
If being led by a Fear/Terror causing character would make for a Fear/Terror causing unit, you would need to test even if you did not contact the character.

Ergo, the presence of a Fear/Terror causing character does NOT turn the unit into a Fear/Terror causing unit.

So there. :rolleyes:

gortexgunnerson
02-08-2006, 16:17
Nonsense.
That does not equate a Fear-causing unit. The character section terms it "a unit containing a Fear/Terror causing character" and says that you only need to test if you would end up fighting said character.
If being led by a Fear/Terror causing character would make for a Fear/Terror causing unit, you would need to test even if you did not contact the character.

Ergo, the presence of a Fear/Terror causing character does NOT turn the unit into a Fear/Terror causing unit.

So there. :rolleyes:

Just to clarify I am not saying this is the rule that I want to enforce, I am of the belief and have always played that autobreak only came into play when outnumbered by a fear causing unit. I was just interested if by the letter of the book it only requires fear and out numbering in certain circumstances such as the case of salamanders and such.

I will concede on the point of the wraith not creating a fear causing unit as he is a character and falls unit Independent character and psychology rules on P100 which say even if he is immune to fear he unit will be liable to it.

I was not actually saying the skeletons unit counts as causing terror I was saying;

Unit charges in, engaging the unit with the fear casuing element of the unit (character) then it can count as a fear causing charge (i,e, fear test taken).

If this test is failed whether a unit is outnumbered and therefore flees is based on the unit strength of the Chargers not the fear cauing element.

I again reitterate I do not play it this way, I was just interesting in the precise rules defination as I was talking to 1 of the GT referees and he says that is how he rules the situation. The wraith skeleton example is the example he used to explain it. I went to the rules book and tried to refute it but am finding a clear rule is difficult. I wasn't too worried as I thought the new rules would clarify and after reading them I don't think this point has been addressed.

In reference to mixed units such as Salamanders in your logic (that fear is not passed on by a handleful of models then that mixed units do not casue fear they would be required to take fear tests if charged and therefore salamanders could flee from a unit of orges for example as the skinks do no count as casuing fear.

This is wrong as this is described as causing fear in the rules, the fact that skinks do not normally cause fear I believe in this case is over written as they are part of a unit described as causing fear. Although with this logic for outnumbering it would be the totally unit strength of salamanders and skinks for sake of autobreak.

Festus
02-08-2006, 16:30
Hi

In reference to mixed units such as Salamanders in your logic (that fear is not passed on by a handleful of models then that mixed units do not casue fear they would be required to take fear tests if charged and therefore salamanders could flee from a unit of orges for example as the skinks do no count as casuing fear.
This is not the case, as the unit is immune to fear without causing fear itself, as it contains fear causing creatures.
Thus the Skinks will not have to test.

Greetings
Festus

Gazak Blacktoof
03-08-2006, 09:14
Just to throw something extra into the mix...

Somebody (I think it was Avian, not sure though) mentioned that having a fear causing character in a unit might make the unit immune to fear in 7th edition, is this the case?

Presumably it would work in a similar fashion to the following..




..the unit is immune to fear without causing fear itself, as it contains fear causing creatures.

Avian
04-08-2006, 11:01
Somebody (I think it was Avian, not sure though) mentioned that having a fear causing character in a unit might make the unit immune to fear in 7th edition, is this the case?
Quite, so if you put your DE Highborn on a Cold One in a Spearmen unit, then not only can he not be targeted by missile fire, he get's +2 to his armour save and he makes the unit immune to fear.

(on the downside, it costs a lot of points and you become Stupid)

Gazak Blacktoof
04-08-2006, 21:27
Thanks, now I just have to decide if mounting my choas lord on a daemonic steed is worth it. If he were in a chaos warrior unit I'm sure it would but in marauders its touch and go.

Nell2ThaIzzay
06-08-2006, 01:26
Cool, huh?

No :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

squiggoth
06-08-2006, 08:41
Just a small addition/clarification; there is no autobreak in 7th edition. The rule "Insane courage", or whatever the name is, states that double ones pass any break test. This also applies when outnumbered by fear causing enemies. Cool, huh? :rolleyes:

Man, my world has fallen apart.
A 1 in 36 chance that my Nurgle Warriors will NOT autobreak a unit EVEN IF they manage to win a combat AND outnumber the enemy. I'm seriously contemplating jumping from a cliff.

Too bad there are no cliffs around here.