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Mechanicus
02-08-2006, 19:34
I know that the Space Marine Legions were split up into groups of roughly 1000 troops. What I don't know is how large (roughly) each legion was, and what they called their company equivilant, EG:

The Space Wolves were a small Legion, and had 13 Great Companies.

What were the other Legion's sizes and company equivilants? Anyone able to help?

Thanks in advance! :)

BrainFireBob
02-08-2006, 20:00
Check out the Index Astartes series. The various Legions used various distinctions, and were various sizes.

Sabretooth makes the Legions much larger than they were in the IA series, however. In the IA, it's implied around 10,000 was standard. In Sabretooth, it almost reads like a 100,000 was normal.

Regardless, we know that the Ultras used a unit of 1000 Marines, and called it a Chapter, and it was considered the basic tactical unit that did not sacrifice punching ability. Hence Guilliman choosing it as a basis for his Codex division.

The Iron Warriors used Grand Companies.

The Wolves, as noted, used Great Companies.

The Dark Angels divided themselves into "wings." Hence the companies being Wings today- Death-, Raven-, and Iron-.

The White Scars used Brotherhoods, I assume- and that the title was commuted from Chapter-ish units to Company-sized ones. I assumed the same for the DA, but as I recall that has fluff backing.

The Alpha Legion was always subdivided in a complicated manner.

The Death Guard used units operating in multiples of seven, which is what we know, I believe.

The Emperor's Children used Companies, which denoted I think Chapter-sized units, so they'd have used a different name for smaller sized units.

Those are all I can recall without referencing.

Mechanicus
02-08-2006, 20:45
Thanks!

One question; what other -wing companies were there in the Dark Angels, or were there only three?

Anyone know any more?

schoon
03-08-2006, 14:49
Before the Horus Heresy, it only took a year (using an accellerated gene-seed process) to create a Space Marine, so the Legions' numbers expanded and contracted according to their needs.

At the end of the Heresy, the Legions were split into (approximately) 1000-man chapters, roughly in accordance with how many Marines they had at the time. Some legions, such as the VII: Imperial Fists were hit quite hard by the fighting, and thus the Second Founding split them into fewer chapters.

The XIII: Ultramarines apparently were far away from Terra when the Horus Heresy began, and thus were relatively intact at the end, which is why they have the most Second Founding chapters.

Commander Ozae
03-08-2006, 15:46
That, and also that the Ultras had the most marines to begin with. Instead of having one mesly planet to recruit from they had 8 systems worth of planets to get potential recruits. That's a lot of marines. Woot!! Go Ultramar

Mechanicus
03-08-2006, 20:12
Ok, so far I've got:

Dark Angels - ? [~4,000 left at the end of heresy to form second founding]
Emperor's Children - 30 Companies by Horus Heresy
Iron Warriors - ? Grand Companies
White Scars - ? Brotherhoods [~5,000 left at end of Heresy to form second founding]
Space Wolves - 13 Great Companies
Imperial Fists - 34 Companies
Night Lords - ?
Blood Angels - ? [~6,000 left at end of Heresy to form second founding. One of the strongest Legions. ~30,000?]
Iron Hands - ? [~3,000 left at end of Heresy to form second founding]
World Eaters - ?
Ultramarines - ? Chapters [~25,000 left at end of Heresy to form second founding]
Death Guard - ?
Thousand Sons - ?
Luna Wolves - ? Companies [At least 25 companies]
Word Bearers - ?
Salamanders - 7 Companies [Smallest of Legions, may have had a second founding, but unsure]
Raven Guard - ? [~ 4,000 left at end of Heresy to form second founding]
Alpha Legion - Probably impossible to find out, considering their command structure.

That's after checking the IA's and the Horus Heresy fluff. Any more input from anyone?

Khaine's Messenger
03-08-2006, 20:28
According to False Gods, each of the four members of the Sons of Horus "Mournival" each had "nearly two hundred warriors" under their command in the assault on Davin's moon, but since that was the sum total of deployed astartes forces, it's logical to assume the other commanders noted to be present were still in nominal command of their companies; on the other hand, they may have had many reserves sitting in the wings. The World Eaters are also noted to have "companies" (as Kharn is the captain of the 8th WE Assault Company and is close enough to his Primarch that one may assume that the company is as high as it gets without resorting to informal structures that require further hierarchy).

Brother Othorio
03-08-2006, 21:21
Thanks!

One question; what other -wing companies were there in the Dark Angels, or were there only three?

Anyone know any more?

i'm pretty sure BrainFireBob is talking cobblers there, it sticks in my mind that Angels of Darkness mentions the legion being organised into chapters in a similar manner to the Ultramarines, i DO know that according to the old SM1e fluff/lists every pre-heresy Dark Angel regiment/chapter had 3 battalions of 3 companies each ~ and that the first battalion of every regiment (and sometimes every battalion in the regiment) would consist of a Deathwing Company, an Ironwing Company and a Ravenwing company (infact to my knowledge that is the only canon appearance of Ironwing, it was dropped afterwards since it served no purpose)

Mechanicus
04-08-2006, 09:21
i'm pretty sure BrainFireBob is talking cobblers there, it sticks in my mind that Angels of Darkness mentions the legion being organised into chapters in a similar manner to the Ultramarines, After checking, Angels of Darkness mentions that post-heresy, the Dark Angels were organised similarly to the Ultramarines, but the 1st company was Deathwing and 2nd was Ravenwing. I can't find anything pre-heresy unfortunately.


i DO know that according to the old SM1e fluff/lists every pre-heresy Dark Angel regiment/chapter had 3 battalions of 3 companies each ~ and that the first battalion of every regiment (and sometimes every battalion in the regiment) would consist of a Deathwing Company, an Ironwing Company and a Ravenwing company (infact to my knowledge that is the only canon appearance of Ironwing, it was dropped afterwards since it served no purpose)Can you remember whether it was regiment or chapter? Other than that, this really helps, thanks!

Romanus
04-08-2006, 11:10
Sorry, going on a bit of a tangent here, but what was the Ironwing, what troop units did it comprise of etc. Sorry for the interuption.

Cheers, Romanus

gunhed
04-08-2006, 12:00
They were the DA armoured/mechanised company but that's all I really know about them. Sorry.

Brother Othorio
04-08-2006, 23:18
Can you remember whether it was regiment or chapter? Other than that, this really helps, thanks!

the word used at the time was regiment, however according to then (1989-1990) fluff the term chapter and legion were interchangable prior to the 2nd founding, whereas these days the term chapter has been retconned to be a sub-unit of the legion of similar size to the old regiment (regiments at full strength were 9 standing companies + 6 companies worth of units at the battalion and regimental level), the current Insigneum Astartes book says of post heresy marines "these autonimous regiments are frequently referred to as chapters" so when talking about the WD126 list i tend to use the say "regiment/chapter" so as to avoid confusion (it USUALLY works..)

Ironwing is commonly believed by fans who have never beheld WD126 to be a specialised armoured unit, it wasnt, it was identical to a non-wing company except that it didnt have anything that was available to Ravenwing (same then as now) or Deathwing (then consisting of terminator, assault and devastator platoons ~ the latter two being upgradeable to veteran status on the cheap)

it should probably be pointed out that i'm a bit of a heretic in that i regard the WD126 legion list as the definitive treatment of legion organisation, as opposed to that guff they put in the IA series..

Mechanicus
05-08-2006, 10:27
the word used at the time was regiment, however according to then (1989-1990) fluff the term chapter and legion were interchangable prior to the 2nd founding, whereas these days the term chapter has been retconned to be a sub-unit of the legion of similar size to the old regiment (regiments at full strength were 9 standing companies + 6 companies worth of units at the battalion and regimental level), the current Insigneum Astartes book says of post heresy marines "these autonimous regiments are frequently referred to as chapters" so when talking about the WD126 list i tend to use the say "regiment/chapter" so as to avoid confusion (it USUALLY works..) OK, I'll use regiment anyway; I've not seen anything that directly conflicts with it.


Ironwing is commonly believed by fans who have never beheld WD126 to be a specialised armoured unit, it wasnt, it was identical to a non-wing company except that it didnt have anything that was available to Ravenwing (same then as now) or Deathwing (then consisting of terminator, assault and devastator platoons ~ the latter two being upgradeable to veteran status on the cheap)

it should probably be pointed out that i'm a bit of a heretic in that i regard the WD126 legion list as the definitive treatment of legion organisation, as opposed to that guff they put in the IA series..
Well, I doubt the IA series has much that conflicts with it, so it probably works. Of course, I haven't seen WD126, but still...

Thanks!