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greendan
03-08-2006, 13:17
hi there
just figured id post a list ive been working on

i thought id give the banner of the hidden dead a go
from the choices presented the only one that seems useable are the heavy horsemen as warmachine/flank chargers
i have used them before to little effect but never like this

the tomb king vs high priest is difficult but im going with a king for extra punch....


TOMB KINGS 2000pts 65 models

LORDS:
TOMB KING - general
+destroyer of eternities
collar of shapesh

HEROES:
LICHE PRIEST - hierophant
+dispel scroll
hieratic jar

LICHE PRIEST
+2 dispell scrolls

ICON BEARER
+banner of the hidden dead
brooch of the great desert

CORE:
CHARIOTS (4)
+standard, musician

SKELETON WARRIORS (22)
+spear, shield, light armour & hand weapon
musician & standard
banner of the undying legion

SKELETON ARCHERS (21)
+bow & hand weapon
musician & standard

SKELETON HEAVY HORSEMEN (6)
+spear, light armour, shield & hand weapon

SPECIAL:
TOMB SCORPION

USHABTI (4)

RARE:
SCREAMING SKULL CATAPULT

SCREAMING SKULL CATAPULT


king and a priest sit in with the spearmen (i left off the light armour as its fairly worthless anyway)
king has destroyer for any challenges, plus its nice special rule pretty much guarantee's me 3 kills's a turn

hierophant and icon bearer join archer'ss who line up 10 wide 2 ranks and reform when necessary into a nice block of skellies
should i swap out either a scroll or jar for the collar of shapesh for more protection on my hierophant??
i dont have great magical defense so i want as many scrolls as possible

chariots charge through reformed skellies (i gave them the cursing word as i figure i can get a few leadership tests out of the wide chariot base)

ushabti out on a flank

scorpion doing icfb or maybe sitting behind skeletons ready to charge through after reform

2 catapults situated near archers

and the horsemen being revealed when necessary to kill either warmachine crew or a flank charge if necessary

what do you think???
:skull:

Crube
03-08-2006, 13:23
Looks like a nice list to me. Couple of points from a personal viewpoint

1. Chariots - I find anything wider than 3 is bot overkill. If you can I'd try for 2 lots of 3, for more flexibility - you'll rarely get all 5 to give you impact hits IMO

2. Skelly archers. I prefer 2 units of 10 (or 11) without command. That gives you flexibility at deployment, and you should be able to get more shots off...

These are just personal preference though - should work ok i think - maybe a good use of horsemen (who I normally dont rate) - could be interesting

CarlostheCraven
03-08-2006, 15:06
Your list looks decent, but I am not entirely convinced that you plan will work consistently. The selections are good, the idea interesting, but I have some concerns

1.) Given your list, the 5 strong chariot unit is probably not the unit you want to have breaking through. There are two reasons. The first is that any play worth his salt will he the the charge through coming from a mile away. You may have enough magic to power through his defences anyway, but if not you could be in serious trouble. Secondly, you will have clear a lot of space for 250 mm of chariot to be used to maximun effectiveness. Of course with 7th ed just around the corner, the exact wording of different change of formation rules may have altered.

2.) Tied to #1 - the Ushabti on the flank is not that useful. They are just too slow to do the things that flanking forces are supposed to do. I think you would be better off placing the Ushabti in the break through position and the very fast (and shooty) chariots on the flank. The charge through plan is a little less obvious, as the ushabti seem more like future flank support rather than a unit with a 15" charge range via magic.

3.) Utilizing your priests for maximum effectiveness is also problematic in this list. What you really want them doing in the first 2 or 3 turns is to fire those Catapults as much as possible. However, you also need to advance enough to with your Icon bearer to unleash hidden dead behind your opponents main battle line. When you do so your priests need to get them moving magically. I think it may prove rather difficult to stay close enough to the Catapults and advanced far enough to use hidden horsemen effectively, especially if you do not have a hill. Certainly not an impossible feat, but you will have to play carefully.


Other general comments on the list

- Give the King the collar for extra defense, keeping him alive is more important than the heirophant. The tightly operating list you have means his Ld 10 will outweigh the crumbling effect caused by the loss of the heirophant.

- The Chariots do not require the standard of the magic banner, those points could be spent elsewhere - like the Collar for the king

- Light Armour is definitely worth it on the spear armed skeletons - increasing your save from 6+ to 5+ is a 100% increase in the likelyhood of you making a save.

- A sixth horseman may be more valuable than the standard. At the very least is less valuable to your opponent if the unit is destroyed in combat.

- Do not underestimate the value of Skulls of the Foe on the Catapults.

Cheers

greendan
03-08-2006, 16:25
okay i changed it a little
thanks for the input guys

i considered a sixth horseman originally but figured the standard better, but being somewhat new to fantasy with only a few games in i never thought about the standard being captured

points taken about the light armour and the king

ive tried smaller units of archers but to be honest they dont kill anything and are just fodder for anyone in combat
so putting them in a big unit means if i kill anything with arrows its a bonus and when ranked up they can hold an enemy for the heavy hitters
plus provide somewhere for characters to hide

okay i guess ill give the list a go and see how it fares

out of interest what would people consider to be a "competitive" tomb kings list???
something useable at tournaments??

so at 2000pts what would be a fairly decent tournament list??

CarlostheCraven
03-08-2006, 17:05
Competitive? Hmmm, it really depends if there are soft scores or not.

The first rule of thumb for competitive TK is choose either all offense or all defense, the mixed list just doesn't quite cut it.

Secondly, you want lots of magic, meaning max characters, but have to keep their item count low.

Off the top of my head, without the book or army builder on hand

Heroes
Tomb King - GW, Collar of Shapesh - 201
Prince - GW - 104
Priest - Dispel Scroll - 140
Priest - Heiro - Dispel Scroll - 140

Core
10 Archers - 80
10 Archers - 80
25 Sketelon, LA, HW and Shield, Full Command, Banner of Undying Legion - 275
1 Tomb Swarm (Tunneled) 45

Special
20 Tomb Guard - Full Command, Mirage Standard (50 Pts?) (although the Icon of Rakaph is also good) - 320 (IIRC)
Tomb Scorpion - 85
Tomb Scorpion - 85
4 Ushabti - 260

Rare
Screaming Skull Catapult - 90
Screaming Skull catapult - 90

Grand Total - 1995

Spells Per Turn - 5 plus banner (7 dice plus bound 3)
Dispell Dice - 4

Battle Plan - The archers deploy out front, advance and fire on turn one, them fight a moving withdrawal after that. They advance and retreat at angles that create poor overrun opportunities or set up good countercharges, when they inevitably get destroyed.

The two infantry blocks deploy behind the Archers, with the Ushabti deployed between them, ready to support either unit.

The Scorpions can either tunnel or deploy on table. With MV 7 and Killing Blow they can deter whole flanks because your enemy fears losing a hero.

The Catapults deploy on a hill and open fire. If there is no hill, I will deploy them in a corner away from the rest of my army, with a scorpion and the tomb swarm for protection, hopefully distracting a sizable portion of the enemy army for 310 Victory points if they kill it all. This means no double shots, but you can't have everything. The priests are better off with the main army casting movement spells.

The prince will deploy in an archer unit, using "My Will be done", and on turn 2 or 3 will fall back into the Main Skeleton block.

The King goes into the Tomb Guard, and the priests operate alone if possible (not nearly as do-able once 7th kicks in) or hide in a unit.

End Result: a very defensive list with decent combat potential and solid magic

Cheers

DirtJumper
04-08-2006, 01:26
One problem with it is the Icon Bearer can't have the Brooch (magic item) if he has a magic standard. (at least he can't id he's like every other BSB in Warhammer)

StormCrow
04-08-2006, 14:09
It's a good looking list, i fielded one very similar today in a 2500 point battle. I'm going to disagree with what Carlos said, as i think there is a third type of TK army that is very viable; that being the counter attack army where you set up your skeleton blocks to soak up the charges and then smash the flanks with ushabti and chariots. As said earlier the Ushabti dont work well as flankers, they're more of a support unit that you try and manouver towards the biggest threat so you can wipe them out with a flank charge.
The counter charge army can be pretty unwieldy though, and usually requires quite a few spell casters in order to force enemies coming to you. Usually if i choose this strategy i'll take a couple of catapults and a big block of archers combined with a couple of spearmen blocks (i use spears over HW's purely for aesthetic reasons, don't feel obliged to follow suit) to make the enemy come to you. Making them come to you is much easier when you have 2 catapults going beserk in your backline. My counter charge force usually consists of 2 princes in chariot units working in tandem to wipe out block infantry and foot troops in general, with ushabti lined up to deal with mounted units.
Personally i don't think icon bearers are worth the points and their hero slot could be put to better use. On the other hand I have always wanted to use the banner of hidden dead. Anyways, i think an icon bearer with this item would be better served in an all out attacking force and have the horses pop up to get an infantry block in a flank when chariots charge the front...then its all over for those foot troops.

And i know the pain of choosing between the TK and HLP. My general rule of thumb is to have kings for Attacking or Counter-Attacking forces, and usually a HLP for a defensive force....unless you bring the casket.

CarlostheCraven
04-08-2006, 19:17
@ Stormcrow

Just out of curiosity, are ST7+ characters/war machines prevelant in your area?

I would love to play by Tomb Kings with more Chariots, especially the two prince led units, but in my gaming circle doing so is tantamount to gaming suicide (Wolf Formed Von Cartsein Thralls, Nike Saurus, penetrating dwarf bolt throwers, etc). If you do face ST7? consistently, what magic items do you run with to protect your fragile, if hard hitting, chariots? I find that three points of negative combat res for each chariot popped is way two risky...

Cheers

StormCrow
05-08-2006, 01:08
ah, i see your point....i'm fighting woodelves, skaven, empire, and dwarves mostly and the empire and dwarf players choose helblasters and organ guns for their artillery so i've never had the problem of S7...except when i fought chaos...that was harsh

Voltaire
05-08-2006, 13:51
Does presenting the enemy with too many targets not make much of a difference in your books?

StormCrow
06-08-2006, 08:59
Does presenting the enemy with too many targets not make much of a difference in your books?

Was this directed at me? If so i'm not sure i understand your meaning but i'll try and answer it anyway.

I don't try and present an overwhelming force to my enemies, but rather have 2 or 3 decked out units that are so threatening that the opponent is forced to direct their attacks at them, but i have them suitably kitted to withstand such punishment.

For example, a unit of 4 chariots with a tomb king and Mirage standard , unit of 4 ushabti, unit of 20-30 archers with Banner of the undying legion usually distracts opponents from the bone giant and scorpion friends coming up the flank and the skeleton blocks trudging up the board ready to deliver a death blow in turn 4-5