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Captain Optimus Metallus
03-08-2006, 20:29
Just wondering what changes would people like to see, whether it be rules, background, or armies? Personally, here're the things I'd like to see, starting with what new armies I'd like to see become part of 40k.

1) Codex: Demiurg - I'd like to see the Demiurg appear as they're own fully-fledged race. Have the Squats retconned out of existence, with all their abHuman stuff, and have the Demiurg placed in the area of space formerly controlled by the Squats (It was a huge empire right in the center of the galaxy, so it's weird just having this void of nothingness sitting right smack in the middle of everything). I think they could be just as interesting of a race in the 40k Universe as the Eldar are, so I'd like to see them.

2) Codex: Hrud - Well, I liked Xenology, and I liked the description of the Hrud. I think they'd make an interesting addition to the races of 40k. And given the number of genocidal campaigns which the Imperium's apparently fought against them, a 40k army for them isn't really out of the question.

3) Codex: Q'orl - Another interesting race from Xenology. Especially for their connection to the Tau, which I'd like to see advanced (Could a Q'orl Queen control the Tau? Could an Ethereal control the Q'orl?). And a non-humanoid race would sure be nice.

4) Codex: Tau Human Auxilliaries - Not the best name, but I'm sure GW could come up with something better. Personally, I'd like to see a full-fledged human army list for the Tau Empire. Not just the half-assed list they got, now. I'd like to see a human fighting force wielding elements of Tau technology and using a different fighting style then both the Tau Hunter Cadres and the Imperial Guard. Most of all, I'd like to see their Elite and HQ units be made up of the Spyre Hunters from Necromunda. Imagine a squad of Malcadons or Jakaras, and a Human Commander in an Orus Battlesuit. If the Tau are making those suits, then it'd be nice if they'd actually use them. And I can't see a better place for their use then in a human dominated force.

5) Codex: Exodite Eldar - Exodites are practically everywhere, use the webway, and are distinct from the Craftworld Eldar. They make sense as their own army and I'd love to see them have an army book.

6) Codex: Chaos Eldar - Another one I'd love to see, especially since their small mention in the 2nd edition Codex Eldar. And no, the Dark Eldar aren't their replacements. These Eldar actually worship Slaanesh, and are part of the forces of Chaos.

7) Codex: Chaos - I want a Codex for nothing but heretics and Chaos rebels. No Chaos Marines. Most times that Chaos attacks, it's Chaos Cults and the like, NOT Chaos Marines. So I'd like to see a Codex which focusses mostly on Chaos Cults with their summoned demons.

8) Codex: Illuminati - I love the Star Child fluff, with the Sensei and the Illuminati, and would love to see the Illuminati get their own Codex. You might say they don't belong in 40k, but 40k's small scale. They certainly don't belong in Epic or BFG, but they're perfect for 40k. Imagine a Non-Alien Controlled, Non-Chaos, Non-Imperial human force. Made up of Illuminati agents, with Sensei champions and heroes bearing the Mark of the Star Child. It'd almost be like a good Chaos force. Sensei even receive powers from the Star Child, like Daemon Gifts.

As for rules, I only got a few changes I'd like to see made sometime.

A) Allowing heavy weapon troops and special weapon troops to target a separate unit then the rest of the squad. It makes no sense that Space Marine Jasper with his lascannon would shoot at the mob of 20 Orks rushing at his squad when there's also a Killa Kan plowing towards them as well. Likewise, it makes no sense for the other 9 Space Marines in the squad to waste their bolter fire on the Killa Kan, which they can't possibly harm, when they got 20 Orks charging their way. And the same goes for other armies. They're all trained soldiers, so why shouldn't the guys carrying the more powerful weaponry be trained to fire at more appropriate targets for their weapons, even when the rest of the squad fires at another target?

The same also goes for tanks. If the gunner of the twin-linked lascannon wants to fire on the Ork Battlewagon, great. But why should the heavy bolter gunners also have to fire on the Ork Battlewagon, when they've got a mob of Tankbustas dead in their sights?

IMO, anyone wielding a weapon with a Str 7 or higher should be able to fire that weapon at a different target, even when the rest of their squad is firing at another target. Maybe not automatically. Maybe you'd need a Ld test. But the option should be there, so you don't have Meltagun armed Guardsmen wasting their shots on Grots or Lasgun armed Guardsmen firing ineffectually at Chaos Predators.

Anyway, that's just my personal wishlist. How about you folks?

Squallish
03-08-2006, 20:45
All I want is for all model options to be on all sprues... or to be lenient on modelling.. Bitz shopping is BS 0.

Simsandwich
03-08-2006, 20:48
TOO Many New Armies.
We do not need small bit part races, and why does everything have to be "Allied With The Tau" because I hate the Fish 'Eadz,
If there was Chaos Eldar, the people would wanr Chaos Orks, Chaos Tau, Etc.
So that ones a no.
Have you ever heard of the LaTD List?
And Exodite Eldar can be done with the current Eldar list, just use your imagination and don't let GW Spoon Feed You.

hootier
03-08-2006, 20:50
Overwatch.

I hate the fact that I can have a squad, peering out over a wall, guns ready, and the enemy can run out from behind a tree, cover all the distance between the tree and the wall, and engage my troops in hand-to-hand combat before I can get a shot off.

It's horribly unrealistic and it makes for horrible games at times.

The Purple Ninja
03-08-2006, 20:52
I'm not so sure about all the codexes, but Codex Chaos does seem like a no brainer. I figure we'll get fairly close to that, there will be one chaos book with LatD, Rebels, and Black Legion, then there will be the 4 major chaos factions following suit just like the major marine chapters.

As for the rules changes, I'd like to see something like that too, perhaps one model in a squad can pass a LD test and shoot at a different target. But I can also see how this would get too powerful in some situations. I'm sure there's a good way to balance it out.

n00bLord
03-08-2006, 20:53
More people making attempts at stuff other than waiting on GW.

Damien 1427
03-08-2006, 20:59
More emphasis on optional rules, for-fun lists, and sub-games like Kill-Team or Combat Patrol.

azimaith
03-08-2006, 21:46
Just wondering what changes would people like to see, whether it be rules, background, or armies? Personally, here're the things I'd like to see, starting with what new armies I'd like to see become part of 40k.

1) Codex: Demiurg - I'd like to see the Demiurg appear as they're own fully-fledged race. Have the Squats retconned out of existence, with all their abHuman stuff, and have the Demiurg placed in the area of space formerly controlled by the Squats (It was a huge empire right in the center of the galaxy, so it's weird just having this void of nothingness sitting right smack in the middle of everything). I think they could be just as interesting of a race in the 40k Universe as the Eldar are, so I'd like to see them.

I'm pretty sure the Demiurg were supposed to be pacifistic or at the very least, opposed to violence.



2) Codex: Hrud - Well, I liked Xenology, and I liked the description of the Hrud. I think they'd make an interesting addition to the races of 40k. And given the number of genocidal campaigns which the Imperium's apparently fought against them, a 40k army for them isn't really out of the question.

Hrud are one of the small sub-races, not really that big a player compared to chaos or orks.



4) Codex: Tau Human Auxilliaries - Not the best name, but I'm sure GW could come up with something better. Personally, I'd like to see a full-fledged human army list for the Tau Empire. Not just the half-assed list they got, now. I'd like to see a human fighting force wielding elements of Tau technology and using a different fighting style then both the Tau Hunter Cadres and the Imperial Guard. Most of all, I'd like to see their Elite and HQ units be made up of the Spyre Hunters from Necromunda. Imagine a squad of Malcadons or Jakaras, and a Human Commander in an Orus Battlesuit. If the Tau are making those suits, then it'd be nice if they'd actually use them. And I can't see a better place for their use then in a human dominated force.

This doesn't need its own codex.



5) Codex: Exodite Eldar - Exodites are practically everywhere, use the webway, and are distinct from the Craftworld Eldar. They make sense as their own army and I'd love to see them have an army book.

This also doesn't need its own codex. same for 6-7.



8) Codex: Illuminati - I love the Star Child fluff, with the Sensei and the Illuminati, and would love to see the Illuminati get their own Codex. You might say they don't belong in 40k, but 40k's small scale. They certainly don't belong in Epic or BFG, but they're perfect for 40k. Imagine a Non-Alien Controlled, Non-Chaos, Non-Imperial human force. Made up of Illuminati agents, with Sensei champions and heroes bearing the Mark of the Star Child. It'd almost be like a good Chaos force. Sensei even receive powers from the Star Child, like Daemon Gifts.

And exactly how would they make their own armies and be a major player in the galaxy. We don't really need good chaos.



A) Allowing heavy weapon troops and special weapon troops to target a separate unit then the rest of the squad. It makes no sense that Space Marine Jasper with his lascannon would shoot at the mob of 20 Orks rushing at his squad when there's also a Killa Kan plowing towards them as well. Likewise, it makes no sense for the other 9 Space Marines in the squad to waste their bolter fire on the Killa Kan, which they can't possibly harm, when they got 20 Orks charging their way. And the same goes for other armies. They're all trained soldiers, so why shouldn't the guys carrying the more powerful weaponry be trained to fire at more appropriate targets for their weapons, even when the rest of the squad fires at another target?

Do you hate tyranids? Because this would spell death for the tyranid army. The idea of too many targets to spread fire is a key element in making armies work without screening.


What do I want?

A splinter fleets/seeding swarm add on for nids.

A Epic scale battle 40k book (which I hear is coming already).

Flyers in normal 40k.

The consolidation of some minor SM chapters into one codex. I think all us non marine players are sick of seeing SM codex's every other release.

grg3d
03-08-2006, 21:46
Oh you mean go back to the way it used to be....

You used to be able to throw grenades( 2x str +2 in inches)
Had overwatch, GW took it out of game play as it was deemed it was slowing down the game :rolleyes:
HW shooting at different targets, really don't know why they changed that one unless it was due to slowing down the game?

Well if you have a game group you could always use these rules...if everyone agreed.
Then again GW might put out an advanced rules supplement :eek:

x-esiv-4c
03-08-2006, 21:51
I would like to see grenades used they way they are meant to be used.

Cap'n Umgrotz
03-08-2006, 21:53
Change the AP system.
Cease the focus on space Marines and Humans in general.
New, updated Ork codex.
Cessation of powercreep.(Codex creep if you prefer)

Seth the Dark
03-08-2006, 22:15
I would mainly like to see squads able to split their fire. It makes no sense that squads all fire at one target even though their heavy weapon gunner would logicaly target another unit.

jfrazell
03-08-2006, 22:33
-Change the turn system away from I GO You GO to something more along the lines of EPIC.

-CENSORED just clarify the existing rules. FAQ's people real FAQ's.

-Second a chaos codex for non-marines.

-A Merc codex including some proper xenos scum.

-A WD that didn't suck like a bad tooth ache.

BodhiTree
03-08-2006, 22:56
My only wish seems really insignificant from the wishes here. :(

I just want SM Command Squads to have the option of being jump-pack mounted, the same probably also applies for Terminator armour. Just dropping the requirements of the Command Squad from being the Sergeant and 4 other Marines, to the Segeant and 3 other Marines would mean we get the jump-pack/Terminator Standard Bearer, Company Champion and Apothecary. I know it's a massive point-sink tactically, but some of us like fluffy lists, and the option to convert some spiffy models. I suppose you can use the Deathwing list for the Terminator option (I haven't looked at the ol' DA codex recently), but what about more traditional marine armies? Phooey. I know the idea has been put forward to equip them with jump-packs anyway, and have the one non-jump-pack marine die first, but that just seems so senseless. And no, I don't want to play Blood Angels.

The Ravenguard vs. Tau display in the SM codex has an Assault Apothecary in it - that's just spiteful. ;)

Edit: And no more apples in the vending-machine please. ;)

Bregalad
03-08-2006, 23:10
1) Codex: Demiurg
2) Codex: Hrud
3) Codex: Q'orl
4) Codex: Tau Human Auxilliaries
5) Codex: Exodite Eldar
6) Codex: Chaos Eldar
7) Codex: Chaos
8) Codex: Illuminati

While sympathizing with some of the suggestions, this would push the Codex Necron and Dark Eldar far beyond 2009 (as scheduled right now!), which is not acceptable. AND this would expect too much of young players (chosing the right army, have a look at all the current threads on this) and stores (doubling store room for all those niche armies is not feasable).

Doing (and playtesting) these Codices and working on adequate models should be left to some veterans, who are not hindered by economic constrains. Warseer or Firebase might help organising this work.

Does anyone have a list of existing Codices of the above list that needs updateing to 4th edition?

Exodites: http://www.agisn.de/html/codex_exodites.html
Kroot: http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/kroot%2Dlist/
Harlequin: http://uk.games-workshop.com/eldar/harlequins/1/

Mojaco
03-08-2006, 23:11
Just steal the rules from BA for your HQ and I wouldn't complain :)
You could simply take a character and attach it to an assault squad, painted like a command squad. You'd only lose the apethecary, since the champion can be mimcked by the veteran sergeant.

The niche army stuff can mostly use "count as" lists.
Demiurgh? SMs or SoB or grenadier IG (depending on your view of just how tough and armoured they are)
Hrud and Q'orl? Tyranids, Kroot mercenary or Ork lists (proper alien lists)
Tau auxillaries? Tau with the auxillery chapter approved thing. Pure auxillery? IG.
Exodite eldar? Eldar or Dark Eldar. Chaos Eldar? Eldar or Dark Eldar. It's really just a creativity thing.
Chaos? IG (ogryns as mutants, conscripts as zombies, Rough Riders as HtH daemons and ratlings as little daemons).
Illuminati? Codex Chaos or LotD.

And I'd like to add Codex: Adeptus mechanicus and Codex: Genestealer Cults. I've got hope for Adeptus Mechanicus for one day, maybe done by Forgeworld.

Anyway, I second overwatch as a new rule. Just one unit a turn though. Don't want to see battles where people pass their turn over after just jelling "overwatch damnit!" over and over again.

revford
03-08-2006, 23:49
The best suggestion I've heard here is the idea that all weapon options should be on the sprues in the basic boxes. Also everything in the core codex books should be available in store. (Drop Pods, I'm looking at you)

Chaos Cultists seem like a given to me, I just can't see them not doing a new book for them, even as part of the a new range of Chaos books.

As for fringe armies like Demiurg and Hrud, Forgeworld would be idea to produce books and models for these. They could release a small range of models for each as part of the Imperial Armour series. IA whatever could be an Imperial Campaign Vs Hrud for example, another the first contact between Tau and Demiurg and their war against the Orks.

Overwatch I don't want to see back, I used it all the time back in the older editions and it was dull, the result was a waiting game for the first side to try rushing the enemy guns. However a stand and shoot option as a charge reaction would be a welcome addition to the game.

Throwing grenades I can live with or without, I honestly don't miss it and again it was something I lived on in 1st Ed. Why fire nine, single shot lasguns when I could throw nine blast marker frag grenades? Vortex grenades can stay gone, please.

Helicon_One
04-08-2006, 00:42
1) Codex: Demiurg
2) Codex: Hrud
3) Codex: Q'orl

Sure, why not. Get the existing races done first, and then, providing GW have enough niches and ideas to fit these guys around, and they introduce the races in a sensible way (ie like the Tau, ands not like the Necrons) go for it. Actually, I'd prefer to see something completely new, and leave the 'footnote' races alone, but anything that brings more variety is a good thing.


4) Codex: Tau Human Auxilliaries
The problem here is that they're all but impossible to fit into a distinct or interesting niche. 'Codex Gue'Vesa' is going to be humans running around with Tau gear. It would almost inevitably just be, at its most basic level, Imperial Guard with pulse rifles, and that just feels like a dead end in terms of expanding the variety of 40K armies. I'd have welcomed Gue'Vesa units being introduced with the new Tau Empire Codex, but I don't think they justify a whole book to themselves at the expense of something completely new and different.


5) Codex: Exodite Eldar
I don't know if they can justify a book to themselves, but the Exodites should return in some form.


6) Codex: Chaos Eldar - Another one I'd love to see, especially since their small mention in the 2nd edition Codex Eldar. And no, the Dark Eldar aren't their replacements. These Eldar actually worship Slaanesh, and are part of the forces of Chaos.
Aren't the Chaos Eldar firmly stuck in the Eye of Terror, though?


7) Codex: Chaos - I want a Codex for nothing but heretics and Chaos rebels. No Chaos Marines. Most times that Chaos attacks, it's Chaos Cults and the like, NOT Chaos Marines. So I'd like to see a Codex which focusses mostly on Chaos Cults with their summoned demons.
A proper Lost & the Damned Codex, then? No arguments here.


8) Codex: Illuminati - I love the Star Child fluff, with the Sensei and the Illuminati, and would love to see the Illuminati get their own Codex. You might say they don't belong in 40k, but 40k's small scale. They certainly don't belong in Epic or BFG, but they're perfect for 40k. Imagine a Non-Alien Controlled, Non-Chaos, Non-Imperial human force. Made up of Illuminati agents, with Sensei champions and heroes bearing the Mark of the Star Child. It'd almost be like a good Chaos force. Sensei even receive powers from the Star Child, like Daemon Gifts.
The problem I have here is that you do't really describe anything that can't be 'counts as' - ified using existing lists. That, and the Star Child is one of those aspects which works better as background than having full armies of them running around - they're supposed to be a secretive organisation keeping their heads down from the Inquisition, not running around with armies starting wars and invoking the wrath of the Imperium.


A) Allowing heavy weapon troops and special weapon troops to target a separate unit then the rest of the squad.

Every time somebody says this, I have to point them towards Jervis Johnson's designers notes in the back of the Epic Armageddon rulebook:


"Similar arguments were raised when the latest edition of 40K came out, as it also doesn't allow units to split fire. As I was a member of the 40K team when the last edition came out, this means I have been over all of the arguments both for and against allowing units to split fire once already. What the various discussions showed was that:

a) It is actually quite hard to get real life units to split fire against different targets (ie, splitting fire is not 'more realistic')...

but more importantly...

Not allowing formations to split fire allows for a more skilful game. One of the key decisions you will face during a game of Epic is picking the right target to shoot at; you have to be able to evaluate the effectiveness of the fire against the different targets and decide where it will be best used. Allowing players to split fire pretty much turns this into a no-brainer, and this is the primary reason I have not allowed it in Epic. It may seem cruel, but I like this kind of thing because it forces players to make tough choices, and rewards good play"

Tim

VenerableDread
04-08-2006, 00:54
Well, here's what I like to see when the Necron codex gets updated.

1) More variety in units and wargear, such as that Wraith Body for the Necron Lord shown somewhere at Warseer's Medusa V Necron forum.

2) A second HQ unit, but more of a melee powerhouse than a support character.

3) Since the Necrons are Egyptian themed, why not have robot Anubis-like guys which are badass warriors who lack in ranged attacks, but worser than Pariahs in close combat! Now that would be totally freaky to see on the battlefield!

4) A second Troops choice. Maybe something like a scout and/or sniper unit?

5) Another, but weaker tank for the Necrons so the Monolith won't be the only Necron tank.

6) Sergeant-type units to lead squads of Necrons to battle, possibly Necrons who loyally serve their Lords and the Star Gods by leading their brethren into the fray.

7) A non-C'Tan special character. Makes a nice change from using the C'Tan as special characters.

Outlaw289
04-08-2006, 01:06
I'd like to see armor-modifiers instead of the current "all-or-nothing" system. Imperial Guard weapons like grenade launchers and autocannons are frequently discared in favor of plasma and lascannons because they punch through (the most common type of armor) power armor. If those weapons degraded power armor to a 4+ or even 5+ save they'd be much more useful, as well as requiring smarter use of cover.


Also, overwatch. I'd like to see that come back, especially since its used in many turn based wargames.

I DON'T want to see heavy weapons and regular guys able to fire at separate units. it'd be the death of tyranids, orks, any close-range army. Overwatch is more reasonable

Chem-Dog
04-08-2006, 02:20
Codex Rogue Trader, I would drop my IG army projects in an instant to produce a RT army.

The Laughing Man!
04-08-2006, 02:29
Armour modifiers, tanks being able to split there fire (but not infantry), plastic SOB that come with the option of all having helmets, SOB that don't look like sharon osborne, and more variety in general.

Shaper Shakra
04-08-2006, 02:32
Codex Rogue Trader, I would drop my IG army projects in an instant to produce a RT army.

I'd rather have a Mercenary codex that included RTs, Kroot, Squat remenants, and other xenos scum.

cailus
04-08-2006, 02:38
Change the AP system.
Cease the focus on space Marines and Humans in general.
New, updated Ork codex.
Cessation of powercreep.(Codex creep if you prefer)

I agree with all of these. I think they are all major issues affecting the game today.

Ghost Dog
04-08-2006, 05:43
Go back to 2nd Edition.

Varath- Lord Impaler
04-08-2006, 05:58
Ahem, me and a couple of dedicated players have been working on advanced rules.

Overwatch- after about 7 pages weve called it quits, overwatch cannot be balanced properly without a mojor overhaul of every unit. Ie. allow heavy weapons? Imperial guard dominate the game, disallow heavy weapons? Imperial guard are screwed. just one example

Terminators- the weakness of the 2+ armour save (in general) and the weakness of terminators.

Tanks- This is my major problem. Tanks should not be easier to kill than infantry. Weve worked it out with a +1 armour to every vehicle (not skimmer) in the game (even to armour 15) and allowed Melta weapons to get 2D6 regardless of range. This made alot more weapons useful and still gave tanks a massive boost. With the added bonus that the Monilith and unkillable eldar tanks arnt affected.

A couple of others i wont bore you with. I would like to see specialist games to be back on the major scene again (drop Lotr! for christsakes!!! no one cares 'what major peril frodo is in this time' drop it and bring back necromunda, mordheim, man o war, battlefleet, inquisitor! those are some of the best games!)

Baneboss
04-08-2006, 06:18
We dont really need overwatch. Just a rule a unit cant charge if he didnt see a unit at the start of the turn.

hootier
04-08-2006, 06:32
I'd go for that Baneboss.

xibo
04-08-2006, 06:36
a copy and paste of the fantasy ruleset would be a good starting point.
fantasy applies all shooting (ie. penalty if running and/or the target is in cover) and armour saves ( -str+3 for all AS, besides 6 allways passes ) modifications; you can decide whether or not you want to run away from a charging enemy, engage it or shoot on it; you can challange character models; and ld modifications in CC: i just can imagine the 30 firewarriors vs. 30 conscripts battle, where one of them gets completely destroyed by its persuiers after they ran away because they 'noticed' that the enemy took one more casualty more to them then they took to him, while 9 of 10 space marines get slaughtered by a dprince and 15 pack demons, and the remaining doesn't even think about falling back...

Making the default army ( we all know which one ) be less imune to psychologic effects ( ld10 rerollable O_o) would also be nice, as would the chaos cult codex - GW would not need to make new models for them as you still use IG/Elves/Bretonian/Chaos models for next to everything.

Adept
04-08-2006, 07:42
1 - Return Armour Save modifiers and To Hit modifiers.

2 - Allow charge reactions; stand-and-shoot, flee, and hold.

That is all.

shabbadoo
04-08-2006, 07:42
The main thing I would like to see is the rulebooks all published within two years of the latest Edition rules set, and then have them be left alone for another 2-3 years after that. Work on models instead, as well as the other games in the off-time. Other than that, I'd like to see a single army book for each *TYPE* of army. For example, all of the Space Marine chapters would be in a single book. The book might be a bit bigger, but make it 200 pages, hardcover, $39.99(similar to D&D book format), and full of rules, fluff, and art. It would take less time than doing 8 separate chapter books(or whatever the heck they plan on doing) and allow for better attention to paid to everything all around.

Moriarty
04-08-2006, 08:10
My only wish seems really insignificant from the wishes here. :(

I just want SM Command Squads to have the option of being jump-pack mounted, the same probably also applies for Terminator armour. Just dropping the requirements of the Command Squad from being the Sergeant and 4 other Marines, to the Segeant and 3 other Marines would mean we get the jump-pack/Terminator Standard Bearer, Company Champion and Apothecary. I know it's a massive point-sink tactically, but some of us like fluffy lists, and the option to convert some spiffy models. I suppose you can use the Deathwing list for the Terminator option (I haven't looked at the ol' DA codex recently), but what about more traditional marine armies? Phooey. I know the idea has been put forward to equip them with jump-packs anyway, and have the one non-jump-pack marine die first, but that just seems so senseless. And no, I don't want to play Blood Angels.



I should like to be associated with the remarks of the last speaker.

The Keeper of Secrets
04-08-2006, 08:35
7) Codex: Chaos - I want a Codex for nothing but heretics and Chaos rebels. No Chaos Marines. Most times that Chaos attacks, it's Chaos Cults and the like, NOT Chaos Marines. So I'd like to see a Codex which focusses mostly on Chaos Cults with their summoned demons.

Try codex lost and the damned. Someone else may have made this point already or you may have had something totally different in mind. But thats what sprang to mind when I read that

psychedelicpenguin
04-08-2006, 11:20
I'd like one huge Codex: Chaos, with CSM, daemons, cultists, traitor guardsmen, mutants, the lot. I don't care if it's £25 quid and heavier than a steam tank, I'd like all the variety of chaos in one book. Maybe a plastic box of chaos scum, with cultist models that could have mutations added to be mutants, or be combined with a guard box to make traitors.

Same for Marines, they don't need 687 different books, they're all essentially the same with a few differences. I think there should be more emphasis on Marines being one army, rather than several.

I agree with some sort of overwatch equivalent, but I'm not sure how it would be balanced. Perhaps a stant and shoot charge reaction might work, where you can shoot but lose an attack in combat. I feel guilty when I summon bloodletters, which appear and charge 12" across the board towards the enemy lines, without them being able to get a shot off.

Having summoning like deep strike where you can't charge would make daemons suck, they'd just die before they can do anything, but It'd be good if the unit they charge can shoot them. Maybe have DS the same, as it should be a bit better IMO.

Gen.Steiner
04-08-2006, 15:24
Go back to 2nd Edition.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

And shouted for emphasis. :p :D

Cap'n Umgrotz
04-08-2006, 15:57
So are myself and cailus the only ones in favour of less power creep?
Because I see it as a major problem. Especially when the power creep is restricted to certain armys by the speed at which GW works.
Fantasy has no codex creep (or army book creep if you prefer), the books tend to balance off quite nicely. So, is it intentional in 40K or are the designers just plain stupid?

Sybaronde
04-08-2006, 16:12
I'd like to see some added content to the different factions in the galaxy. Particularly, I'd like to see something comparative to the 'hunters' codices, but which support the Tau, Eldar or Chaos (or any of the other xenos races).

I'd also like a change in the Vehicle rules. What I'm thinking is that they should be treated as creatures, just like the Wraithlord's transition to an infantry stat-line. What I imagine is that they get Toughness values between 6 and 10 (i.e. T 6 for landspeeders, since a melta only needs 2+ to damage it, while a Hammerhead has T 9). And then, just scrap the 'random device broken' tables for glancing and penetrating hits. If they need more weakness, then make every hit of a 6 a 'penetrating' hit (or 5+ for opentopped vehicles), which takes two wounds instead of one.

Karloth Valois
04-08-2006, 16:23
To-Hit and Armour Save modifiers. Less stupid stuff (ass cannons, Siren). A more complicated and interesting Psycic power system. New lists for all Main armies - not lists for Space Marines with different coloured armour.

chivalrous
04-08-2006, 16:40
*pops on rose tinted specs*

I want a return to the 2nd edition rules. I'm sorry but I don't consider anything in 3rd-4th edition to be an improvement.

Different movement values for different races, specific rates of movement for different typed of terrain. 'D6' is too random.

While combat took a long time to resolve, at least there were no arguements about who could and couldn't take part.

Weapons had much more variety, different armour save modifiers, accuracies at long range different degrees of armour penetration. Back then even a heavy bolter had a fair chance of penetrating a Marines armour. In close combat there was a distinction between a power sword and a powere axe and the latter was more powerful if you used two hands.

True, there was a lot of potential for beardy play but that could easily have been reduced by tweaking the army lists rather than the whole 40K system.

Look at fantasy, It's no longer Herohammer and the rules by which you play the game have barely changed, just the army composition rules and the magic system.

[QUOTE=azimaith]o you hate tyranids? Because this would spell death for the tyranid army. The idea of too many targets to spread fire is a key element in making armies work without screening.
QUOTE]
If it were restricted to Heavy weapons only I don't see it being too bad and while the rule existed in 2nd edition, Tyranids didn't fare too badly.

As I remember screening is or was a big part of the tyranid tactic back then.

Sybaronde
04-08-2006, 17:19
Regarding Split Fire:

Wether it is realistic or not would be a matter of perspective and experience. I doubt that Jes Goodwin has that much combat experience or read loads of mission reports from any war in the past, but he chose to think that splitting fire would undermine the challenge of the Epic game. However, in 40k, I doubt it really does - I think it undermines the entertainment value of the game. Specifically, removing 'split fire' causes a general crackdown on the suspension of disbelief that 40k runs on like a train on railtracks.

While it may pose an obstacle to Tyranids, it again expands on the tactical decisions a Tyranid has to make. Adding split fire to the game doesn't excempt armies from tactical decisions, because they still have to consider ranges of bolters/lasguns and placement. In fact, Tyranids also benefit from split fire if it means that their Carnifexes can shoot their weapons at different targets.

Deadnight
04-08-2006, 20:12
port the starship troopers rules over to 40k...

its got flyers
its got armour modifiers
its got (instead of hit mods) armour mods for being in cover (which to use. more difficult to hit, or more cover improves your save rather than an armopur or cover save...)
its got an interesting system for making missions.
instead of rolling d6s on a to wound roll, you roll damage dice that can be d6s, 8s, 10s etc. and you have to roll to match the other guy's toughness. i prefer this to the to wound rolls.
the 2 action per turn makes more sense than move, shoot assault and has far more dynamism.
alert mode. oh, really. you move within 10" of me? hah. i get to pop off some free shots!

and besides, roughneck chronicles was cool!:)

but for 40k, drop the AP system and bring back armour mods at least. i refuse to believe an autocannon capable of punching through the armour of any tank short of a land raider has the same chance of busting through power armour as a laspistol..

Adept
04-08-2006, 20:47
So are myself and cailus the only ones in favour of less power creep?
Because I see it as a major problem. Especially when the power creep is restricted to certain armys by the speed at which GW works.

Codex creep is a myth.

Ancient_Galatan
04-08-2006, 20:59
I would absolutely LOVE to have more background for obscure races/armies (hrud, ADmech, cultists, eldar etc.) instead of forever hearing about how capitan xyz of the laserfaces space marine chapter killed all the orks 500 years ago. I don't hate space marines, but i agree with an earlier post saying the focus should shift away from human-related armies, even if its only for a little.

Overwatch seems like a good idea, i might have to try that out in a few games. i could see it becomeing terribly overpowered for some armies, especially stand-and-shoot ones.

"oh so your monolith wants to move past my anti-tank squads? fine with me."
bzzzt.

Cap'n Umgrotz
04-08-2006, 21:04
I'm sorry Adept, but I really disagree. I think that it's fairly obvious that races get powered up as time goes on. Compare the old space marine codex captain to the new, factor in drop pods, compare the old assualt cannon to the new, look at the old tau codex vs. the new one.
Codex creep is a reality. It's not as fast or dramatic as some would say, but it is there.

Fideru
04-08-2006, 21:06
I would like to see grenades used they way they are meant to be used.

That would be pretty sweet.

Cap'n Umgrotz
04-08-2006, 21:11
It used to get a bit silly in 2nd edition.I reckon if grenades were to be used like that again, make them one use only.
I'd like the moving cover rule I suggested a few months ago to be incorparated if the dumb cover saves and AP system isn't fixed.
I mean, are modifiers really that hard?

Adept
04-08-2006, 21:24
Compare the old space marine codex captain to the new, factor in drop pods, compare the old assualt cannon to the new, look at the old tau codex vs. the new one.

A beter comparison would be; Imperial Guard vs Space Marines or Black Templars vs Tau Empires.

It's fairly obvious that the older codexes, or at least the ones designed with 4th edition in mind, are not outclassed by the newer ones. Older codexes remain highly competitive, and in some cases can be considered more powerful. For Codex Creep to be a reality, Black Templars would have to have an advantage over most, if not all, previously released codexes. As would every other codex. This clearly is not the case.

Cap'n Umgrotz
04-08-2006, 21:30
Hmmm.
However, I was thinking more of codex creep as- armys get redone.This inevitably leads to them being better, more in line with the new rules and such.
This then means that the older lists, which in some cases have not seen a brush up in 8 or 9 years are left behind. That is codex creep, though of a different kind. So, we're more disagreeing on the definition of codex creep than whether it or what I'm talking about occurs.

Warp Zero
04-08-2006, 21:58
I'm actually fine with the way grenades work now. Its simple and fits in with the style of play 40k is going for.

For me, I'd like to see a tweak to how vehicles take damage. I can't really think of an idea right now ... but as it is now, its a bit too erratic. Due to the large number of high strength weapons we now "baby" vehicles more than we do squads. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Anyways, I'd be happy with a slight tweak. I personally don't think a vehicle should ever be destroyed on a Glance. Stunned, Shaken, Weapon Destroyed, Immobilized....sure, these things are okay. But I think "Destroyed" should be removed from the Glance table.

In regard to Overwatch, yeah...its cool, but I see why the designers removed it. I agree with their decision. But ...because of its removal, situations like a unit running from behind a hill and charging another unit without getting shot at happens. [like a previous poster mentioned] I understand the frustration of the player getting charged. He would naturally think, "man...in reality I would've smoked most of those guys as soon as they broke cover."

I think this is the heart of the problem, and I think there are ways of solving it besides adding in Overwatch. Y'see .... to me, running across open land is time spent getting into HtH with your enemy. Obviously, the more ground you gotta cover, the longer it takes. The longer it takes, the more time the people getting charged will have to react.

I'm not totally sure, because this is coming off the top of my head as I write it, but how about something like .......

1.) If a unit has moved over 12" (included charging move), the targeted unit being charged gets to fire one volley into charging unit before HtH begins.

or

2.) If a unit being charged has an equal or higher Initiative than the unit charging them, then they get one free volley into them before hth starts.

....I don't know...both of those are pretty unrefined messy rules, but I'm just suggesting something around that area. Just to offer a solution that doesn't involve Overwatch being thrown back in.

Anyways...my two cents and all that.

Adept
04-08-2006, 22:33
I'm not totally sure, because this is coming off the top of my head as I write it, but how about something like .......

1.) If a unit has moved over 12" (included charging move), the targeted unit being charged gets to fire one volley into charging unit before HtH begins.

or

2.) If a unit being charged has an equal or higher Initiative than the unit charging them, then they get one free volley into them before hth starts.

....I don't know...both of those are pretty unrefined messy rules, but I'm just suggesting something around that area. Just to offer a solution that doesn't involve Overwatch being thrown back in.

Anyways...my two cents and all that.

Just port in the charge reactions from WHFB.

If a unit is charged, it may fire at any one charging unit, with a -1 to-hit modifier.

Helicon_One
04-08-2006, 23:17
Hmmm.
However, I was thinking more of codex creep as- armys get redone.This inevitably leads to them being better, more in line with the new rules and such.
I was under the impression that the new Black Templars had been toned down from their hideous "our disadvantages make us WIN" C:Armageddon list, actually. As for the Tau list, the original Codex was borderline underpowered, the new list has just fixed the bulk of what needed fixing. If your statement above is correct, then presumably you think the forthcoming Eldar Codex will power them up above even the current starcannon-fest 3rd Ed list.

Tim

Eidolon
05-08-2006, 01:28
It seems everyone is fixated on rules. Am I the only one who is a bit dissapointed in regards to fluff and artwork? I recently got hold of an ancient white dwarf, the one with the craftworld eldar list and background. To say that I was blown away at the quality of the articles and the illustrations is an understatement. I can't imagine what it must have been like for elf fans to read it at the time.

Lately, however I don't see any of this. The Tau codex was a quick paste-job. The rules might have been meticuously designed and playtested, but the fluff and illustrations did little to get my imagination going. Same for sm's. It just seems GW is content releasing rulesets with miniature catalogues attached, and a tiny amount of (often forced) fluff for the sake of it.

Me, I want to see more freshness and inspiration in the background material. I want to see fantastic, colourfull artwork that gets my imagination going. I doubt most of us are in this just for the rules or the miniatures. It's the dark and fanscinating 40k universe that has us fixed. Don't let it become stagnant.

stecal
05-08-2006, 01:47
I want a wholesale swap of Forgeworld & 40K design teams (or just shoot them, please!) If Forgeworld is producing all the neat models everyone wants then why not just make them the official 40k stuff. I'd much rather see metal Drop troops, Tallarn & Death Korps of Krieg than Vostroyans (what were they thinking?) Cast up all the Vostroyans in resin they want for the 3 people on earth who actually want them.

and stop playing games with packaging and model prices. I.e. I can buy a box set of a squad for about $ 5 each model, but the special & heavy weapons it comes with are poo. Now I have to blow $ 10 per model for a single "good" weapon (plasma, psycannon, etc) Also packaging a good weapon with a bad one - why do I have to buy 1 grenade launcher for each plasma I want -- just make a blister with 2 plasmas and be done with it!

adreal
05-08-2006, 02:04
hmmm...movment values shouldn't be too hard to make work....even if the system as it is now. White Dwarf needs to be re made...I'm sorry but it's really crap. The two latest tatical articals for fantasy....er...all they are if a full page of pictures with barely a paragraph in largish font. How is anyone supposed to leanr how to play tomb kings ( a hard army to make work) or skaven with that crap.

The only good thing GW has done recently is upped the annie of their mini's (look at the wood elf line and tell me it's not sexy, look at the eldar line and not fall in love with it, look at the nid line and not be awed by it's gribblyness) shame about the prices though huh. GW if you want to make money, drop your prices on all but the core game boxes (right now they are a pretty good bargin)

er ok sorry, back on topic, movement values and charge reactions, but add something else in:
Counter Charge: if you I valuse is greater htne the squad charging you, without cover modifiers (but others like banshee mask are still in) you may charge out and meet them half way, niether squad gets charge bonuses

Epicenter
05-08-2006, 03:03
There's a few things I'd like to see.

* I'd like to see Chaos given more individuality again than just "Marines except eeeevilllll (and more powerful) for 16 year old boys who listen to death metal and 40 year old men who wished they were those 16 year old boys." No more of this Undivided stupidity, bring back the Cult Armies. I'd really like to see Chaos lose their Dreadnoughts for improved Defilers and their Terminators for Obliterators, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I'd be satisified with an official LatD codex detailing the armies of non-Marine Chaos: cults, mutant hordes, traitor Guard, etc.

* Codex Alienhunters that wouldn't just be, "Oh, here's a group of overpriced T3 guys that no sane person would ever except in extreme friendly games plus another 3+ save army to back them up." I'd like to see rules for minor alien races in there like the Hrud, the Xenarch, Loxatl and how to integrate them into armies as mercs, allies, or infestations (small battles for combat patrol or kill-team), regardless of if they involve the Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch or not. Perhaps even a "creature feature" generator to create aliens for friendly games.

* I'd like to see 40k develop an official "40k advanced" (obviously they wouldn't call it that) ruleset. Less rules-intensive than Inquisitor, though. There'd be events and tourneys around the new ruleset - event organizers could decide which ruleset they're using.

It wouldn't plug into standard 40k at all. It'd use the same models, that's it. It'd get rid of the IGOUGO system that's currently in use. Let's face it, 40k's turns are based around medieval/ancient warfare. Ranged weaponry doesn't figure in that much for battles under those systems. There's an overemphasis in 40k about making melee very complex, utilizing attacks, initiative, weapons strength, and so on. Meanwhile, ranged fire, which has become very effective in 40k is still handled by a system where I can anhilliate my opponent (or he anhilliate me) because all ranged fire is resolved in alternating turns. This is totally unsuitable for a game with lots of effective ranged weapons. Ranged fire would be resolved simultaneously so you can't wipe out one side or the other just because you get first turn (or second). Change the way armor and AP is resolved, switch around vehicles, and numerous other tweaks.

OT: It wouldn't be second edition, though, which was, I'm sorry, lame to me. Codex creep in 3rd/4th edition? Let's go back to 2nd? Let's talk about Imperial Guard preliminary barrage in 2nd ed that could wipe out half of the enemy army before the game began or maybe that Tyranids could destroy half your army before it ever got on the board. Ork mega-armor that was better than Terminator armor? Herohammer where your armies were like 75% points in heroes. Where Eldar players would show up with practically nothing but tooled up Exarchs with a straight face because his Marine opponent had Ragnar Blackmane running around hopped up on combat drugs, waving around a C'tan phase sword, and waiting to throw a Vortex Grenade? Random event cards that could cause a virus outbreak that'd kill everyone's armies? Turrets from exploding vehicles boucing around the battlefield like a homicidal beach ball? Spending 15 minutes arguing if some weapon or another was "heat-based" to see if it the Avatar was immune to it? No thanks. No return 2nd edition for me.

Cpt_Tiberius
05-08-2006, 03:43
I'd remove the Tau and bring back squats...

Commissar Bone
05-08-2006, 04:49
Let's go back to 2nd? Let's talk about Imperial Guard preliminary barrage in 2nd ed that could wipe out half of the enemy army before the game began or maybe that Tyranids could destroy half your army before it ever got on the board. Ork mega-armor that was better than Terminator armor? Herohammer where your armies were like 75% points in heroes. Where Eldar players would show up with practically nothing but tooled up Exarchs with a straight face because his Marine opponent had Ragnar Blackmane running around hopped up on combat drugs, waving around a C'tan phase sword, and waiting to throw a Vortex Grenade? Random event cards that could cause a virus outbreak that'd kill everyone's armies? Turrets from exploding vehicles boucing around the battlefield like a homicidal beach ball? Spending 15 minutes arguing if some weapon or another was "heat-based" to see if it the Avatar was immune to it? No thanks. No return 2nd edition for me.


Hahaha, yikes. I forgot about some of that madness. Thanks for bringing it back to reality.

cav da man
05-08-2006, 12:14
all i want is the rules to be more complicated in order to fix some of the gaming problems, i think the armor save dice should be at least on a d10 or maybe even a d20 so that smaller things like quality of armor and how old/modified it may be to give everything some more depth. I also want modifiers back. I wouldnt mind the human part of the tau codex to be padded out slightly but that can wait.
I like most of the ideas put forward by epicenter.

infernus31
05-08-2006, 13:06
I'm pretty much happy witht the main 4thed rules, am not a fan of armour modfiers instead of AP myself i like it that 40K has such differences to fantasy though it may have some problems (ie autcannon vs marines).

I myself would like a small simple thing from fantasy - he who finsihes deploying 1st gets +1 on who goes first. Simple and kinda makes sense IMHO.


Oh and plastic valhallans/steel legion with plasma guns in the boxed set and even possibly heavy weapons in the same box so you dont have to spend 38 for the bare minimum impy guard platoon.

The_Outsider
05-08-2006, 14:13
I myself would like a small simple thing from fantasy - he who finsihes deploying 1st gets +1 on who goes first. Simple and kinda makes sense IMHO.

Quoted for awesomeness.

That makes sense and itsn't totally game unbalancing. The tyranids wouldn't like that the most, but there surely can be a way around that?

SAMAS
05-08-2006, 19:07
Overall:

A set of advanced rules, for those of us who like more realism.

Less emphasis on the Marines, and more on the Guard.

Give White Dwarf a Fanatic section. Every quarter or so, focus on a different game or two. Epic, Warmaster, Inquisitor, and Gothic at least

Lower prices a bit, but also start encouraging larger armies in WD and on the websites.

Release another music CD, this one with tracks from Chaos Gate, Fire Warrior, and Dawn of War.

I don't mind the Codex Creep. As long as an army list has units or wargear that is considered useless, the army list should come out a little stronger when redone, if by no other means that making those units viable.

Redo Chaos. The Lost and the Damned should be the "basic" Chaos Codex, with the Marines as sub-lists. Also, move Chaos back to it's moral ambiguity and randomness. Abbadon can keep the "Skulls, Spikes, and Blood" thing, but Chaos is more than that.

damian22
07-08-2006, 18:49
[QUOTE=Warp Zero;849271]Anyways, I'd be happy with a slight tweak. I personally don't think a vehicle should ever be destroyed on a Glance. Stunned, Shaken, Weapon Destroyed, Immobilized....sure, these things are okay. But I think "Destroyed" should be removed from the Glance table.
QUOTE]

I LOVE this idea. I definately think tanks are a little weak. This would make them tougher. Perhaps you could remove "Destroyed" and add something like "Secondary Weapon Destroyed" and "Main Weapon Destroyed".

Valo
07-08-2006, 19:24
I definetly agree with damian22,take off the vech. destroyed rule on the damage table off for glancing hits.

Epicenter
08-08-2006, 03:23
I definetly agree with damian22,take off the vech. destroyed rule on the damage table off for glancing hits.

The problem with just that would be that skimmers would rule the game and Tau and Eldar tanks would become that much more indestructable. Especially Eldar. Now, if you're an Eldar fanboi, there's probably nothing wrong with that. For the rest of us, 33% of something bad happening to a skimmer when we manage to score a glancing hit it is important.

Valo
08-08-2006, 06:15
Thats true Epicenter but I'm sure we could confer another set of rules towards skimmers,keeping the same set we have now would be fine,but as far as tanks like land raiders and russ' make some new rules,maybe not for all tanks,but for the real large point sinks.......because honestly paying 250 for a tank then having it destroyed by a damn spore mine is just bad.....a big massive vechicle likw that should have structure points like the FW tanks have.....not as many.but thats the way I'd like to see them done.

And as a side note I can understand why you have a dislike for eldar grav tanks,with that stupid upgrade that they can move 18 inches in a turn(or something like that)!

revford
08-08-2006, 07:25
Even as an Armoured Company player, I think the destroyed by glance needs to stay. People have enough trouble against me already, if they needed a strength nine weapon to have any chance at all of destroying me it would put me out of reach of some of their armies.

Sincity
08-08-2006, 10:45
I think a 6 on the glancing table should just be "re-roll on the pen. table.
Vehicle wounds, toughness and armour saves would solve a lot of the clunky vehicle issues , GW would need to do a codex VEHICLE to redo that.

A standerdized mafunction table to go along with vehicle wounds.

1 wound ) 1/2 speed
2 wounds) -1 BS
3 wounds) weapons 1/2 range
exc.

So vehicles few wounds would less affected (you know , they die instead) and vehicles with more wounds would be slowly degraded.

Sincity

Vandur Last
08-08-2006, 11:21
1) Bring back modifable armour saves.

2)Give units different movement characteristics

3) Units that dont move should get some kind of bonus to shooting, maybe a +1 to hit or something.

Squallish
08-08-2006, 19:46
Just a thought of mine... could obviously be reworked, but it brings pilot/driver "morale" into the game a bit.

New Glancing Table:
1 - Shaken
2 - Confused
3 - Stunned
4 - Distracted
5 - Shaken & Armament Destroyed
6 - Immobilized

New Penetrating Table:
1 - Shaken & Stunned
2 - Confused & Armament Destroyed
3 - Distracted & Armament Destroyed
4 - Immobilized & Stunned
5 - Destroyed
6 - Explodes!

Confused: The pilot/driver becomes confused, momentarily losing control of the vehicle. On its next movement phase, if the vehicle choses to move it must roll a scatter die. If the die is a "hit" the vehicle can move as normal. If the roll scatters, the driver moves 1d6" in that direction. Fast vehicles roll 2d6".

Distracted: A pilot/driver of a vehicle becomes preoccupied with the hail of fire coming at it. The driver (if possible) must drive in reverse towards his deployment zone at half its full speed (12" for fast, 6" for normal, 3" for walkers). It may fire at -1 BS. If the vehicle ends its turn off the table edge by any amount it is taken off as a casualty.

If dangerous or impassable terrain is encountered on either of these moves, the vehicle stops and suffers a minor crash, lowering the AV of the side that crashed by 1 permanently and the vehicle suffers from Crew Stunned. If difficult terrain is encountered, the vehicle suffers from Crew Shaken.

----

I also think this is a great idea:

I think a 6 on the glancing table should just be "re-roll on the pen. table.

azimaith
08-08-2006, 19:55
Just a thought of mine... could obviously be reworked, but it brings pilot/driver "morale" into the game a bit.
Confused: The pilot/driver becomes confused, momentarily losing control of the vehicle. On its next movement phase, if the vehicle choses to move it must roll a scatter die. If the die is a "hit" the vehicle can move as normal. If the roll scatters, the driver moves 1d6" in that direction. Fast vehicles roll 2d6".

We used to have skimmer drift rules but they were done away with. I think stunned is fine.



Distracted: A pilot/driver of a vehicle becomes preoccupied with the hail of fire coming at it. The driver (if possible) must drive in reverse towards his deployment zone at half its full speed (12" for fast, 6" for normal, 3" for walkers). It may fire at -1 BS. If the vehicle ends its turn off the table edge by any amount it is taken off as a casualty.

I don't really get this, why would a pilot reverse to his deployment zone. He should shoot himself in a random direction at top speed to get the hell out of dodge before he gets gunned down. Basically "Roll a scatter die and move the vehicle as fast as it can move in that direction. Dangerous terrain tests apply as normal."



If dangerous or impassable terrain is encountered on either of these moves, the vehicle stops and suffers a minor crash, lowering the AV of the side that crashed by 1 permanently and the vehicle suffers from Crew Stunned. If difficult terrain is encountered, the vehicle suffers from Crew Shaken.

This seems like it would slow down the game alot. Having to record all the AVs all the time would be a pain in the ****.
Just make them roll dangerous terrain to see if they immobilize themself.

I personally think the best way to make tanks more survivable is to cut down on the number of AT weapons running around combined with an increase in armor for transports like 12 SA chimeras and 12/11 for rhinos which tend to get the most drubbings.

As for an LR, a reroll once per game for a penetration roll would be good.

Squallish
08-08-2006, 20:14
Distracted should probably be called "Scared".. it's to the table edge to make it more like a fallback move after losing a morale check.

It may slow it down a bit, and wouldn't work.. I know.. I was just tossing out ideas for people to ponder.

I think Glancing 6 = reroll on Penetrating would work just fine. Provided it doesn't force disembarking.

Kegluneq
08-08-2006, 22:16
As a Tau player I'm somewhat biased on the glancing rolls, but a reroll on penetrating on a 6 seems very reasonable anyway. I don't personally see a lot else wrong with the damage tables as they are.

I also disagree with increasing armour values to any great extent - even penetrating shots aren't guaranteed to do significant damage, and the whole point of high strength weapons (S6+) is that they're anti armour to begin with. For bolt weapons to be able to get a glancing on a 6 on Armour 10 sounds fine to me as well - and with the modification to the glancing rules it would make a certain kill slightly less likely.

I'm generally against any rules that would make things more complicated, even if they do make sense (overwatch etc). Battles of 40k go on long enough as they are... The Heavy weapons discussion is inherently amusing for me though, since the Target Lock (on Crisis Suits and tanks) solves the problem for Tau right away XD

Kahadras
08-08-2006, 22:31
I would like to see a couple of changes. One would be to have simultanious turns (like Battletech) so that the advantage of getting to shoot first is not so great.

Secondly I would like to see pinning checks rather than moral checks if the squad is over half strength. It's mainly cosmetic but I prefer the idea of troops hitting the ground rather than just running away when they start taking casualties.

Kahadras

Mojaco
08-08-2006, 22:37
I'd much rather see metal Drop troops, Tallarn & Death Korps of Krieg than Vostroyans (what were they thinking?) Cast up all the Vostroyans in resin they want for the 3 people on earth who actually want them.
Must.... control... rage....

What are you on? I think the ol' vosties have 40k written all over them, quite contrary to the elysians. Beautiful models, but too sci-fi for my taste. Vostroyans look the part. Have you ever picked one up to appreachiate the sheer amount of detail? They're really a beautiful release. Mine will be grand too. Watch the project logs this month.

Codex creep is nonsense. The recent codexes all fiddled with the unpopular choices to make them viable and downgraded the units everyone choose. Here's some examples:

Who ever took a commander or librarian? Now you see all three HQ's regulary.
Biovores were too strong. Now they're downgraded to arguably the weakest on the Tyranid list.
Bioengineering a hive was open for abuse. Scrap those rules!
BT's were too overpowered. Now no more.
Kroot add-ons like krootox made no sense. Now they do.
Tau leaders were lame with a very limited list of upgraded. Now they're actually customizable at a point cost.
New Tau units: Piranha's, SKyray and Vespids. I'd like to your argument of how these units are anywhere near overpowered or boosting the Tau too much, if at all.

I could go on, but I don't wanna. I made my point. Codex Creep, no matter how you use the term, doesn't exist.

x-esiv-4c
08-08-2006, 22:43
I would like to see psychology play a much bigger roll in the game.
More pinning tests, things like that. Heck, stubborn is hardly used.

UnRiggable
08-08-2006, 22:53
pirahnas are effective, because there were no fast units before for tau before, which is stupid for an incredibly advanced race

Kegluneq
09-08-2006, 00:15
One rule I would like to see changed is Pinning. As it stands, pinning is always described making a unit dive for cover, but a pinned unit is equally easy to hit as it was when it wasn't pinned. I'm happy that the unit should be unable to do anything next turn, but making them harder to hit seems a logical step. Perhaps a unit shooting at a pinned unit could do so at -1BS? They wouldn't count as being in cover, so it's not a supar free cover save, but it seems bizzare for a 'pinned' unit to be considered to be standing motionless in an open field all the time.

Minister
09-08-2006, 01:51
The adaptation of the Epic command and supression systems as part of 5th edition 40k.

Epicenter
09-08-2006, 02:52
One rule I would like to see changed is Pinning.

Morale in 40k is a joke, unfortunately. Likewise, things that influence morale are kind of a joke. In general, morale only influences shooty armies. Every smirking story told by Marine players about how they had some librarian with "Fear the Darkness" slaughter some entire army are stories about Tau, Guard, Eldar, and ironically some Marines. Pretty much every other army in 40k has some mechanism to make it essentially immune to morale.

With the need to make loonies armed with nothing but chainswords and a bad attitude into a viable army against people with oodles of ranged firepower, there's simply too much stuff that can't be stopped until you kill every last man, Any army with a strong melee theme has multiple units which outright ignore morale.

Kahadras
09-08-2006, 05:55
Pretty much every other army in 40k has some mechanism to make it essentially immune to morale.


Death Guard are the most annoying in that respect IMO. Toughness 5 I can understand but why are they fearless? On top of this they have true grit as well which just makes a horrible package.

IMO Fearless should go to the Word bearers. Death Guard are good enough with toughness five and true grit.

Kahadras

Malphax
09-08-2006, 06:09
Morale against CSM is kinda funny. On the one hand, you've got the Undivided legions that only have a 1/144 chance of failing a morale check, and then you've got the Cult legions that are all fearless. Oh, and apart from Obliterators and (some) Daemons they all have Ld 10.

So I guess by "kinda funny" I actually mean "a complete waste of time."

Also, before you dismiss Death Guard as "Zomg ovrpower3d!!!11!!1!oneone!1!" remember that they can't take any infantry heavy weapons of any kind.

Kahadras
09-08-2006, 06:38
Also, before you dismiss Death Guard as "Zomg ovrpower3d!!!11!!1!oneone!1!" remember that they can't take any infantry heavy weapons of any kind.

Yup and that's the only thing that doesn't make them Zomg overpowered!!11!!!1!!!one!! The fact is though that the ordinary Plague marine is a steal for what you get though and i don't see why they should get fearless as well as everything else.

Kahadras

Outlaw289
09-08-2006, 07:15
Because they are corrupted by Chaos?

Sure I'm not loving that expression when the $%&@*^! aren't being pinned by shooting casualties, but it wouldn't make sense for CHAOS MARINES to go "Hmm, we're ten feet away but Jeb died from an autocannon round. Head for the hills brothers of chaos"

I don't mind it, I just wish there was maybe a way to disrupt units and slow their movement instead of outright immunity to morale/pinning

Mojaco
09-08-2006, 08:28
O, Ie that. Yes, something that doesn't make them run but doesn't leave them fully operational either. I'd like to see that too (and I play Tyranids!)
Unfortunally all the fearless armies have a good reason for being fearless.

Chaos because they're Chaos, Tyranids because they're mindless.... and that's it. I suppose fearless isn't so wide-spread as everyon claims.

Ld 10 is widespread, but again explainable. Necrons are borderline fearless machines, so bound to have some organisation. Chaos is chaos. Marines need a reason for a commander, and this is a good one. Grey Knights don't know fear, only tactical retreats (or were they completely fearless?). Imperial Guard really needs a huge investment to get ld10. And make them fail it once and a 100 pt character dies :)

I'm not sure why I started this rant.... Anyway, the morale system works normally. But something to makefearless less worthwhile would be good. And maybe make Ld 10 more rare.

Kahadras
09-08-2006, 08:45
Because they are corrupted by Chaos?

Sure I'm not loving that expression when the $%&@*^! aren't being pinned by shooting casualties, but it wouldn't make sense for CHAOS MARINES to go "Hmm, we're ten feet away but Jeb died from an autocannon round. Head for the hills brothers of chaos"

How does corruption have anything to do with being fearless? When a Marine dies his spirit acends to the side of the Emperor (or so they believe). When a Chaos marine dies he goes to his chosen 'god' to answer for his failure. Chaos space marines are ultimatly self serving; they fight for selfish reasons gratification/power or whatever this is not conductive to heroic self sacrifice (which is why they don't get ATSKNF).

IMO the only Chaos marines which should be fearless are Thousand Sons (because they are already dead). Lets also remember that failing moral checks doesn't mean they just run away screaming. Maybe Jeb's friends decide that the position is to well fortified for an all out assault and decide to fall back out of tactical nessecity.

Kahadras

Sincity
09-08-2006, 09:26
I think that all units that are fearless should work just like ATSKNF.

You could then add an additional level of moral (if you really think you need it) and call it ...... a terror test

Things could cause terror , Greater Demons , Avatars , C-tan , Land Raiders;) , and so on.


Wow Fantasy already has this. Imagine that.:confused:

Sincity

Megalodon01
10-08-2006, 20:58
Codices: Marines expand the trait system to make it work for creating all Marine variant lists (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc) and only have one Codex. Same idea goes for Inquisition, Guard, Eldar etc. One Codex per race.

Add movement rates back in.

If you have to have I GO U GO then do it by alternately choosing units and do all phase for one unit at a time. Use strategy rating to work out order of who chooses first and allow choosing an opponents unit. Otherwise go to an action based system.

SciFi and Fantasy games need too much variation to be accomodated properly by the simple D6. Go to dice with more sides and show army variation in unit stats rather than with special rules that alter the core game.

Embrace modifiers. Eliminate the AP system.

Add more Psychology effects and have fewer exceptions to Psychological effects.

Allow charge reactions.

Codsticker
11-08-2006, 16:25
I have just skimmed this thread but something I would like to see is changes to the Sniper rifle rules. For a weapon that is (in reality) quite effective when used by itself it is only really effective when whole squads are armed with them in 40K. A few possible minor changes:
- ignore target priority
- -2 to pinning test
- rending

If I was to completely re-vamp the rules I'd do away with the weapon being available to whole units and make it only available to individual snipers (SM Scouts and Eldar Rangers) or Sniper Teams (IG- 3 guardsmen, only one armed with a Sniper Rifle) and the rules would be a little more heavy hitting, borrowing from the Vindicare Assassin rules.

A7X
11-08-2006, 18:17
i personaly think that in the future (the VERY FAR future) that the tau empire should actually become an empire, ie, give them a race like SMs have Guard.

I'd also like to see story expand a bit, its nearing the end of the 41st milennium (sp? i hate english..lol) and i think that something fun should happen at the end, oh i don't know, primarchs come back (ALL sm and chaos) and all the c'tan awaken and start kicking ass and basically the end of the universe. Itd make for something different, as everything else in the 40k universe barely ever comes to a significant end

luchog
11-08-2006, 18:42
6) Codex: Chaos Eldar - Another one I'd love to see, especially since their small mention in the 2nd edition Codex Eldar. And no, the Dark Eldar aren't their replacements. These Eldar actually worship Slaanesh, and are part of the forces of Chaos.

I've been working on for for about a month now. I'll be posting a beta version in Rules Development soon.

As for the rest of 40k, I'd like to see an end to the IgoUgo turn-based system, and see the turns progress by phase instead. I'd also like to see a return to an "overwatch" sort of system, but changed dramatically from what it used to be.

There are just too many problems with overall balance and play to go into here.

Helicon_One
11-08-2006, 18:44
i personaly think that in the future (the VERY FAR future) that the tau empire should actually become an empire, ie, give them a race like SMs have Guard.
Like the Kroot/Vespid/Nicassar/probablyanotheroneI'vemissed, you mean?


I'd also like to see story expand a bit, its nearing the end of the 41st milennium (sp? i hate english..lol) and i think that something fun should happen at the end
Yes.

oh i don't know, primarchs come back (ALL sm and chaos) and all the c'tan awaken and start kicking ass
No. An extended timeline, competantly written and believable would be an interesting development, and could do alot to stir up interest in 40K. A "and then all the primarchs came back and the C'Tan and the Star Child andandandand..." story is a poor way to waste a whole bunch of undeveloped plot threads in one go, tear up all the established background GW spent the last 20 years writing, and turn 40K into something unrecognisable.

and basically the end of the universe. Itd make for something different, as everything else in the 40k universe barely ever comes to a significant end
GW writing "and then the whole universe was eaten by a rogue space goat" would be 'something different', too, but not in a good way. Why would GW want to kill 40K altogether?

Tim