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Sylass
05-08-2006, 07:33
There's a new story entry added:



Tactica - Siege (http://www.warseer.com//node/388)








These are only some of my tested theories so this article shall be quite general in how we use them, and very univeral in how we apply them. Here are a list of things that shall be discussed on here for you; The Defenders perspective: i) "Ready, aim, fire" ii) "Charge!" iii) "There's on the walls" The Attackers perspective; i) "Ready the ram" ii) "Incoming!" iii) "Up the walls!"

Sylass
16-08-2006, 19:18
Took us a bit of time, but finally this article written by Voltaire (http://www.warseer.com/forums/member.php?u=12025) is published. I hope you enjoy reading it. :)

Voltaire
16-08-2006, 19:42
Huzzah - I got it through customs!

Savnock
16-08-2006, 23:34
Great article, Voltaire!

Thanks for mentioning the importance of sally parties (the "Charge!" section of the defender's tactics). It took me a long time to even try this with sieges, and it's still quite tricky.

Fast cavalry have worked out best for for this in my experience- even if the enemy isn't really ready for heavy cavalry, they can usually deal with them fairly quickly due to numerical superiority, and the investment on the defender's part really saps the keep defences (as they aren't likely to make it back...). Fast cav, on the other hand, are harder for most siege attackers to deal with. Siege attackers often skip the missile troops entirely, thanks to the difficulty of hitting troops behind hard cover. They also often concentrate on heavy line troops for brutal wall assaults, and rarely take their own cavalry. Thus some of the main banes of fast cav are absent, and you can harass to great effect. It is important to note that many siege attackers go heavy on the spellcasters for ranged support, as thier attacks don't have "to hit" rolls to be affected by the battlements- assuming you play with the modified siege rules from WD that allow spells onto the battlements (I highly recommend these rules, BTW.They cover lots of stuff and balance sieges for all armies well).

That said, Brettonians forced to take at least a single unit of heavy cav will have to make do, and can really master sally tactics after a siege or two practice. If you're fighting them, be ready for this.

Flyers are also a big consideration in Warhammer sieges. Every defender should have a plan for dealing with them- retreat from threatened sections and shoot 'em up, have a quick reinforcing unit in the courtyard, or field your own unit of flyers to counterattack, whihc may be repurposed to harassing if your enemy chooses not to field airborne troops. Flyers should be a top priority for shooting from defending units if possible, as even if you can't detroy them, weakening them before they reach you is a good thing. Consider positioning that "welcome wagon" unit guarding your gates against rams to also deal with flyers- keeping the Hellblaster or Organ Gun able to shoot troops on your own ramparts, etc.

Regarding foot troops, characters are also really useful in sieges, particularly for the attacker. The limited number of attacks available to units on ladders or (even moreso) siege towers really emphasizes their high damage potential, and they can fight their way to and neutralize war machines on towers pretty handily. Plus, it's really dramatic! Defenders may find regular troops a better investment, but if you can get a model that can double as an artillerists (as Voltaire suggests) they can be a better investment.

On a separate note, I'd also like to mention that the Dark Elf Cauldron of Blood really comes into it's own in sieges, as do Witch Elves for rampart defense in it's company. Reinforced psychology and reduced vulnerability to shooting combined with high number of attacks make them surprisingly nasty for sieges.

One last thing- if your attacking army has small units of relatively powerful skirmishers (duelists, ghouls, beastmen, gutter runners, the Manflayers), consider using at least one unit with grappling hooks to rush lightly-defended rampart areas (like ones the board layout makes it hard for your ranked units to get to, etc.). This can either take defenders by surprise or force them to redeploy, giving you both a tactical and psychological advantage. The same units are great for grabbing or contesting wall or courtyard sections in the last turn of the game. Single characters with hooks can do similar tasks, but are less useful for grabbing sections, and thus not such a hot investment when other skirmishers are available.

Thanks again for a great article!

Sureshot05
17-08-2006, 10:52
Superb article, but I would suggest mentioning what we discussed as a cheese rule in our siege games, the ratling gun and the helblaster.

These two units are lethal in the attackers hands as they can clear walls with relative ease due to them ignoring the to-hit modifiers. Both have proven to be huge game winners when used correctly.

Helblasters are great for clearing a wall just before you assault and ratlings also make great war machine hunters.

Definitely worth a mention for those two armies. As for the dear goblin horde example, I felt real sympathy for the example player as an identical thing happened to me when Grail Knights came charging out and hammered straight into the centre of the horde - Most the army was fleeing at the end of the game with two lone goblins assaulting the walls!

Final note for Gobbo defenders is fanatic assault.

Sending out a cheap suicide unit with fanatics in can cause havoc in the enemy army, or just draw lots of fire (which is also good). The same idea applies to have a second unit behind the gate, they knock it down and the madmen then launch. Just make sure you are 8+" behind the gate to prevent early launch (which can be embarrassing if they knock down the gate!)

Savnock
17-08-2006, 19:39
Sending out a cheap suicide unit with fanatics in can cause havoc in the enemy army, or just draw lots of fire (which is also good). The same idea applies to have a second unit behind the gate, they knock it down and the madmen then launch. Just make sure you are 8+" behind the gate to prevent early launch (which can be embarrassing if they knock down the gate!)

But wait... don't fanatics anywhere other than the gate just deploy and run into the walls, dying immediately or going into your own troops?

I can definitely see where they could prevent sally parties of Brettonians well, though.

Good point on the Ratling guns. Skaven really own sieges- I've only fought them once that way in 6th, and got handed mydonkey.

Does anyone have suggestions for siege defense against skaven armies? Sally fast cav to take out the cannons seems like a good idea, but would be vulnerable to warp-lightning, of which there will be plaenty. Flyers, maybe? And what the hell can one do about the bell, other than shoot it?

Maybe it's sort of appropriate that the rat-men are inevitable death to fortifications...

Voltaire
18-08-2006, 06:57
When facing the Skaven on any field of battle, your greatest benefit is any benefit that is psychological. Remember they can only get so much onto the walls at once too!

Sureshot05
19-08-2006, 18:00
But wait... don't fanatics anywhere other than the gate just deploy and run into the walls, dying immediately or going into your own troops?

I can definitely see where they could prevent sally parties of Brettonians well, though.

Good point on the Ratling guns. Skaven really own sieges- I've only fought them once that way in 6th, and got handed mydonkey.
*snip*

.

Sorry, should have been more clear - its only for Defenders fanatics are any good. If you are attacking as night goblins, then NEVER take a single fanatic, it will just cause you such grief (and make your opponent laugh til the cows come home!)

For Skaven, the screaming bell is a fun item to place behind the wall as your opponents can no longer see it to shoot it, and its effects still work.

My personal favourite force for attacking is the Empire, with those great cannons (and if your using the overloading rule even better) you can actually reduce the fortress to ashes.

My pet hate for sieges is Brettonians, who will inevitably be sending a sally out. They really need a "knights on feet" option for the Brettonians specifically for Sieges - I mean who is going to take a horse to attack a castle?

"Come on Silver, up the ladder..."

Oh and Ogres, who we have the custom rule can buy ladders at twice the points (I'm sure they could make large ladders!)

Has anyone found an effective way without using pegasus swarms to breach a castle with Brets?

Voltaire
19-08-2006, 19:45
Has anyone found an effective way without using pegasus swarms to breach a castle with Brets?

Thats what the Trebuchet is for - literally! They chuck masonary until the walls crumble and the nights march right through.

Daemon king Mad Dog
19-08-2006, 20:21
Dwarfs or Empire, Attacking: Cannon! Defneding: Cannon! (yes, i am a crazy dwarf player)

Especialy with dwarves, give the crew Valiant rune, and for 110 points you have a cannon with an Unbreakable crew, add a master engineer, and maybe turn it to a bolt thrower to make sure your Master Engineer survives and your've got one hard nut to crack.

And when attacking the Master engineer can entrench the cannon. make a breach then storm it, admitidly your gonna spend all the game getting over to the breach if your dwraves but...

Also sally forth with cavalry!

And i've seen an empire player do this: Open the gates! Fire the hellblaster volley gun! Close the gates!
Turn after turn after turn. very cool when their trying to knock down the gate with a unti of trolls or maybe just an orc unit :D

Nkari
20-08-2006, 14:10
You as a defender are DOOMED to loose the siege as the current rules are..

You cant have troops on the walls because the dubble pts in magicians will wipe out the defenders on the walls with magic missiles.

And if not, then fill the rare slots with giants and watch the wall sections crumble like there is no tomorrow..

Or Place as many of your heroes and lords on flyers as you can (since in this version their cost is not dubbled) and fly into the courtyard and charge from there..

Skaven have rattling guns and magicians to wipe out everything on the walls.. So does lizardmen, so does empire.. or 8 cannons..

Undead Raising whole new units ontop of the walls, undead with the banner of the barrows hitting on 3's..

I could go on but I take it you get it by now ?

Really.. played to many sige battles and found the rules way way to broken.. currently reworking the whole thing..

Voltaire
20-08-2006, 15:45
Wrong wrong wrong.

A defender stands a much better chance in a Siege than an attacker does. In your examples, toppling a wall or some such mean you have an open space for someone to get through. That is all well and good but it is still probable that they will only be able to get one unit through at once.

I have seen a siege where a Skaven player lost to a Chaos Daemon army. The Daemon player left his bloodletters & Daemonettes inside the castle. He sent out his Daemon Prince and Furies to assail the enemies artillery and I was quite surprised to see that most of the Skaven were running after the Prince ripped apart the Skaven Warlord. When they finally did kill the Prince and the Furies, the Skaven were killed to a man when scaling the walls. It showed that there is hope for a defender, even if the defender has no real firepower.

A defender can win in a Siege by simply stalling the enemy for long enough. For example, if I were playing as the Dwarfs, I would not go into a Siege without a unit of Slayers to send out the gate when the enemy gets too close. Tying the enemy up in combat means no further advancing and a very tough to crack speed bump. This is the reason fighting through the Undead in a Siege is the biggest challenge you will face.

Alathir
20-08-2006, 15:51
Any suggestions for a wood elf defender and attacker against the tomb kings?

Voltaire
20-08-2006, 16:08
Yeah, do what Wood Elves do best - shoot away at the enemy. Make sure you have some dryads ready to man the walls. Make sure you take some magical bows for your characters.
Also, take a great Eagle or two and go Hierophant hunting to whittle their numbers before they get to your walls. Their reduced numbers combined with your archery will make this quite an easy siege if you do things right in the first few turns.
Finally pray that your enemy does not take a casket of souls.

Daemon king Mad Dog
20-08-2006, 16:58
We played a mega battle seige, And we just waited until they (Inevitably) Broke down the gate, then we charged out cavalry, and use traditional tactics of... give your crossbowmen great weapons and watch them slaughter rank after rank of enemies before shooting another. It also helped that we could set the moat of fire :D.

The one thing you forget is you are going to have line of sight to most of your enemies units. and also a cavalry charge is very effective when the gate goes down, hold the gate and your on a way to victory, holding the walls is much easier.

Voltaire
21-08-2006, 16:05
I am in the process of writing a new siege Scenario for me and some people to play. It consists of an army of determined good guys fighting towards a castle inhabited by a very nasty Vampire Count. It will use the Slyvania list and be aimed at making for a fun, though unbalanced, scenario.