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Sleby
05-08-2006, 10:33
Hey there.

I'm looking at starting a fantasy army (have had enough 40k ones) and I was wondering what your guys thoughts on Brettonians were. I think the models look fantastic but I have no idea about how the army plays or anything like that.

Would love to hear your opinions.

gorenut
05-08-2006, 11:03
I depends on what kinda army you want to make. Brets have a list that is very easy to abuse. Many people frown on Bret armies. Personally, I think the army is neat as long as you make a balanced list. Ultimately, if you like the models, go for em.

Sleby
05-08-2006, 11:10
Well I know it sounds silly but I think the men at arms and archers models are wicked so I can imagine having quite alot of those.

I wouldn't have any pegasus though. Love the trebuchet and grail knight models to.

sigur
05-08-2006, 13:34
Sounds okay to me then. Are you a tournament player or do you like "competative" gaming?

TheWarSmith
05-08-2006, 15:49
Nobody will ever have a right to complain about a bret force that contains lots of peasant/M@A units. The ones they complain about are the 7 Knights of the Realm regiment lists.

I just started as well. I'm doing a heavy conversion/paint theme to keep my interest, but the initial models and the rules are fantastic.

Finally, you can win with a French army.

Steel_Legion
05-08-2006, 16:05
brets are good, and lists with peasants are still good fun! ( i typically field in 2000points at least 4x15+ units of peasants, last leauge i fielded 72 peasants and it was good fun and very balanced) my only issue is the archer models IMHO are horrid, so static, so i might get some perry miniature archers, unsure on the legality of these in tournaments though

Voltaire
05-08-2006, 16:05
I never understood the complaints about the Bretonnians is. People who tend to disagree with them have never devised an effective means of countering them in my opinion.

I have seen Bretonnian players who have played like Empire with archers & M@A regiments and they were quite effective. Just make sur you have a large smashing cavalry unit.

Kotobuki
06-08-2006, 05:10
I enjoy playing my Bretonnian list greatly. If you like the Peasant Models, and can afford them (16 in a box at 5/6 points a piece for $35 is a bit steep for me) all that much the better, as there will definitely be less cries of cheese. Besides that, when properly used, Bretonni peasants can work out quite well.

samw
06-08-2006, 05:54
As an army Brets are an excellent choice for 7th ed, more or less being given a boost everywhere. The mandatory BSB becomes better as they are now a more attractive option, we are unaffected by the widening of ranks except that it makes getting two lances on a single target that much easier, and the new rules preventing units being sucked into combat mean opponents won't be able to involve two units when we only wanted to engage one. However, the best models in the range, questing knights, have now been totally nerfed, becoming an almost useless choice (unless some errata emerges redefining their weaponry in which case all will be well.)

If you like peasants take them, I run a unit of 27 bowmen at 3k with full command, it rocks. But never forget the core of this army is knights, and they will be what wins it for you.

DeathMasterSnikch
06-08-2006, 06:13
Well I know it sounds silly but I think the men at arms and archers models are wicked so I can imagine having quite alot of those.
.

Men at Arms are the best! Love the models. No ones going to complain aslong as you dont :cheese: the list with an RAF style army.

Zethal
06-08-2006, 07:04
The general complaints i have seen from Brets stem from heroes getting a free ward save, and sometimes complaints about the knights as well. Then the big problem is the Pegasus Knights.
They break just about every precedant GW has set for units like them.

Only Ogre unit, that with a 360 charge ward save, great armor, command.
Special Flying cav rule for US
Only unit in the whole game that uses mounts tough instead of riders.

Sleby
06-08-2006, 07:17
I promise not to include any pegasii in my army ;)

samw
06-08-2006, 07:43
The general complaints i have seen from Brets stem from heroes getting a free ward save, and sometimes complaints about the knights as well. Then the big problem is the Pegasus Knights.
They break just about every precedant GW has set for units like them.

Only Ogre unit, that with a 360 charge ward save, great armor, command.
Special Flying cav rule for US
Only unit in the whole game that uses mounts tough instead of riders.

On your first point Peg knights are 55pts a model. For that price they should be good. You also actually have to use them well as they cost far more than other flyers and so have to work hard to earn their points back. Saying they are "the only unit" is meaningless. Uniqueness does not mean uberness.

Warhawk riders also have the flying cav rule, I would bet money terradon riders also will when they are re-done.

On your third point you are entirely wrong my friend. Terradons also use the mounts toughness instead of the riders, and this is standard practice for mixed models, read the rules for chariots. Since warhawks and elves are the same toughness the difference is not noticed. Peg knights followed the rule, they didn't break it.

Peg knights were a new unit and a fantastic concept, one of the key pieces of iconography that got me to collect the army. A unit of three is hardly game breaking.

truthsayer
06-08-2006, 10:56
I never understood the complaints about the Bretonnians is. People who tend to disagree with them have never devised an effective means of countering them in my opinion.

Well i think you are wrong, I would say i am a good player and am able to come up with effective countermeasures before and during games but when my opponent susses what i am doing he just sends in two units of knights instead one and the new rule to enable more knights to get into combat just worsens the deal for people playing against brets.

I would also say that the Breton Characters have it far too easy when it comes to magic item selection, virtues and the 'free' save. To Nullify Knights armour you need high strength but then you up their ward save, to have a decent chance at killing some you need a decent magic weapon or numerous strength 4 attacks which then eats up your magic points allowance meaning you cant get a decent save to stop the inevitable 'i charge and reroll hits due to this virtue, then i reroll wounds due to this lance, then you die' scenario.

I do however agree that the Brettonians are a cavalry army and should therefore be good at charging but when it removes the fun of the game I sometimes see no point in playing against them (quite hard when my only regular opponent plays them).

Voltaire
06-08-2006, 12:20
People I have come across seem to call Bretonnian players the worst breed of 'Power Gamer' because of all the things already mentioned such as Pegasii & free Ward Saves. They seem to be a very easy/ albeit small, force to play. While point for point their cavalry is not the best in the game, so much cavalry is going to be presenting problems for everyone else.
Albeit in a tournament fighting them is going to be difficult because you will be relying on everyones army being quite 'balanced' to equip for other armies. Bretonnians do not seem to be able to balance as effectively as everyone else. Thus they seem stronger and more of a power gaming choice.

Sleby
06-08-2006, 12:41
People I have come across seem to call Bretonnian players the worst breed of 'Power Gamer' because of all the things already mentioned such as Pegasii & free Ward Saves. They seem to be a very easy/ albeit small, force to play. While point for point their cavalry is not the best in the game, so much cavalry is going to be presenting problems for everyone else.
Albeit in a tournament fighting them is going to be difficult because you will be relying on everyones army being quite 'balanced' to equip for other armies. Bretonnians do not seem to be able to balance as effectively as everyone else. Thus they seem stronger and more of a power gaming choice.

But the models are sexy and I wanna play them. Is that grail relique thing any good? It looks pretty tidy to!

BuckFlashback
06-08-2006, 13:09
But the models are sexy and I wanna play them. Is that grail relique thing any good? It looks pretty tidy to!

The main thing you need to remember is that if something appeals to you (awesome looking model, cool fluff, etc.) then use it. The most important bit is that you create an army that you want to put together, you want to paint, and you want to play. Worrying if your army will suck or is too cheesy comes later.

Sleby
06-08-2006, 13:25
So is anyone going to tell me about this relique thing? :D

Steel_Legion
06-08-2006, 13:55
yeah its carried by your basic peasant stat line man (ie really bad!), but the relic makes them stubborn and grants the blessing into that unit, coupled with light armour, hand weapon and shield, thats not too bad! shame they cost alot of money :(

zak
06-08-2006, 14:13
I'll try to do a quick precis of the Brettonian forces. Here goes.

Your core army will probably consist of Knights of the Realm (KR) and Knights Errant (KE). Both units use the lance formation which means for a small amount of points you get a lot of models hitting. You can use a unit of six and get five attacking as all the models on the edges of the rear ranks get to attack. This means that on the charge they are deadly. They get a ward save, which depends upon the strength of the opponent and a very good armour save. This means they are resiliant against shooting and close combat. There down points are low leadership meaning they don't often like charging fear causing monsters and they are vulnerable to war machines, which negate that 2+ save! However, the knights are generally reliable and will be the most common units seen.

Other Knight units include the Grail Knight (GK) and Questing Knights (QK). Both are good units, but I prefer the Grail Knights if I have to choose from both. The Grail Knights are immune to psychology and are combined with the lance formation a unit killer. The down side is that you will probably see very few gamers with large units of these knights due to the high points cost. 6-9 is about usual.

Men at Arms (Peasants!) - Used to a useful unit in the 5th edition, but have now been watered down a bit. I still like them and use them for additional rank bonus and just to get in the way as they don't cause panic in your knights....so there nice and dispensible. Give them halberds for a little umph or spears if you want to use them defensively.

Archers - They were grear in the old formation, but are now too static. They have long range and can cause a few problems to chargers with there stakes (takes away charge bonus' etc). However, this rarely makes a difference and they usually die quickly. That said there relatively cheap I never leave without a unit of them.

Mounted Yeoman - Rather spend the points on Knights! They run easily and the Knights movement means there fast enough. IMO!

Grail Relique (sorry about spelling) - Some love it. I've never taken it. I played against it once and it died very quickly. They are stubborn and cheap. One of those love or hate units. Can't say really much more as I don't know enough about it.

The Pegasis Knights - A VERY useful unit. Get a unit. There not broken. They have there uses, but are expensive at 55 points especially against shooty armies. If you take more than 1 unit, you may see the wrath of your fellow gamers who will no doubt say something about cheese and be shaking their heads slowly.

The trebuchet - I think it's great. It gives you something else to do other than just charge with your knights. It's abit unpredictable and may even land on your own knights....sometimes. I try to always take one.

The heroes and lords are standard human stats and are fairly priced. The Brets can take one extra character which often adds a little more umph to your units. The mages are OK and can be protected inside your units. Invaluable with the new ruke in 7th edition where you can shoot characters even if there by units!

Overall, the Brets army is a good starting army. You don't have to have great tactical experience to win as you often just charge and trundle through the opposing unit. However, against a more experienced opponent the Brets need a bit more thought and have more than just one tactic. Some will say they are tired and one dimensional.....possibly if played that way. Some will say they are overpowered ie FLYING CIRCUS (Refer to Pegasis Knights). But I think there a good army with nice models that look great when painted.

The best thing to do is bite the bullet and see what works for you.

Sleby
06-08-2006, 21:21
I'll try to do a quick precis of the Brettonian forces. Here goes.

Your core army will probably consist of Knights of the Realm (KR) and Knights Errant (KE). Both units use the lance formation which means for a small amount of points you get a lot of models hitting. You can use a unit of six and get five attacking as all the models on the edges of the rear ranks get to attack. This means that on the charge they are deadly. They get a ward save, which depends upon the strength of the opponent and a very good armour save. This means they are resiliant against shooting and close combat. There down points are low leadership meaning they don't often like charging fear causing monsters and they are vulnerable to war machines, which negate that 2+ save! However, the knights are generally reliable and will be the most common units seen.

Other Knight units include the Grail Knight (GK) and Questing Knights (QK). Both are good units, but I prefer the Grail Knights if I have to choose from both. The Grail Knights are immune to psychology and are combined with the lance formation a unit killer. The down side is that you will probably see very few gamers with large units of these knights due to the high points cost. 6-9 is about usual.

Men at Arms (Peasants!) - Used to a useful unit in the 5th edition, but have now been watered down a bit. I still like them and use them for additional rank bonus and just to get in the way as they don't cause panic in your knights....so there nice and dispensible. Give them halberds for a little umph or spears if you want to use them defensively.

Archers - They were grear in the old formation, but are now too static. They have long range and can cause a few problems to chargers with there stakes (takes away charge bonus' etc). However, this rarely makes a difference and they usually die quickly. That said there relatively cheap I never leave without a unit of them.

Mounted Yeoman - Rather spend the points on Knights! They run easily and the Knights movement means there fast enough. IMO!

Grail Relique (sorry about spelling) - Some love it. I've never taken it. I played against it once and it died very quickly. They are stubborn and cheap. One of those love or hate units. Can't say really much more as I don't know enough about it.

The Pegasis Knights - A VERY useful unit. Get a unit. There not broken. They have there uses, but are expensive at 55 points especially against shooty armies. If you take more than 1 unit, you may see the wrath of your fellow gamers who will no doubt say something about cheese and be shaking their heads slowly.

The trebuchet - I think it's great. It gives you something else to do other than just charge with your knights. It's abit unpredictable and may even land on your own knights....sometimes. I try to always take one.

The heroes and lords are standard human stats and are fairly priced. The Brets can take one extra character which often adds a little more umph to your units. The mages are OK and can be protected inside your units. Invaluable with the new ruke in 7th edition where you can shoot characters even if there by units!

Overall, the Brets army is a good starting army. You don't have to have great tactical experience to win as you often just charge and trundle through the opposing unit. However, against a more experienced opponent the Brets need a bit more thought and have more than just one tactic. Some will say they are tired and one dimensional.....possibly if played that way. Some will say they are overpowered ie FLYING CIRCUS (Refer to Pegasis Knights). But I think there a good army with nice models that look great when painted.

The best thing to do is bite the bullet and see what works for you.

Cool thanks for all that info. Shame you don't know about the relique thingy though :p I think I'll get one regardless because the model is very sweet! :p

Kotobuki
07-08-2006, 14:29
I take a reliquae in my army. It's more infantry, and it's slightly more capable than standard peasants. It's got L8, and it's stubborn. So, you don't have to worry about it running much. Heck, my Reliquae holds more often than my knights. That's sad. Also, they hate everyone, so they'll actually land SOME hits in CC with thier WS2.

dodicula
08-08-2006, 07:54
Defining brettonians in 40K terms....
think tyranids in terminator armour, living in a world with no lascannons or meltas or plasmas!

samw
08-08-2006, 09:17
Actually, think Space Marines. They're the closest parallel (the Grey Knights specifically but the Space Marines in general.) Though few in number they are strong of heart.

chivalrous
08-08-2006, 11:10
I've found that having a core of large infantry blocks(2 blocks of 30 M@A and a 5x5 block of pilgrims with the Reliquae), supported by units (6-9 strong) of KotR, Errants and Questing knights, with a small unit of yeomen and Skirmishing archers and, if you have the points, a small unit of peg knights for distraction and interference works really well.
having a couple of damsels in with the M@A is useful to help dispell some of the nastier spells directed at them and keep them from running away too quickly.
The BSB is rarely tooled up but might on occasion take the grail vow and the virtue of purity to make him a little more resilient.
My favourite combination on the General was always Sword of the Quest and Virtue of Confidence, very nasty against everyone except High Elves with the Talisman of Saphery *grumble*

The M@A are surprisingly solid despite their poor stats because they'll normally get the full quota of combat res bonuses for ranks, outnumbering and a standard, provided you keep their flanks guarded by the knights.
The Reliquae unit can pretty much hold their own being stubborn on an Ld of 8.

oh and if you're after some cheap models, I'm being forced to sell off my army due to impeding studenthood, check out my post in the trading section or look up chyvalrous on ebay.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
08-08-2006, 17:21
As Bretonnians are my primary opponent, I have no choice but to enjoy facing them. I would say that overall it's an army that's easy to learn but hard to master. Once people learn how to deal with cavalry, it becomes a level playing field and more often than not, the run-of-the-mill bretonnian army is lacking in tactical flexibility.

Don't be pressured into not taking pegasus knights just because they are the strongest, most underpriced unit in the game. They're still nice models, and can be useful even in small numbers (like 3).

I personally would vouche for taking a unit of 18 battle pilgrims (including reliquae) with a paladin with the virtue of empathy and some big bad magical doohickey (worry not about protection, they get free ward saves). You get a stubborn unit that can actually hit pretty hard WITH hatred. They're also some of the sexiest models in the game (ie: good sculpts, imo).

samw
09-08-2006, 07:06
Don't be pressured into not taking pegasus knights just because they are the strongest, most underpriced unit in the game. They're still nice models, and can be useful even in small numbers (like 3).


Skaven slaves, skinks, fanatics, goblin wolf chariots, ratling guns, earth-shaker cannons, chaos hounds, need I go on?

Even if they are undercosted, which I don't accept, it's a matter of percentages. If they're 5pts too cheap per model that'd be 30pts or so even for those who lean heavily on them. That's a couple fewer peasants archers in the army. Surely you're not going to argue that they're more undercosted than that?

Peg knights are the strongest flyers in the game. They are also far and away the most expensive.