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Ixe
06-08-2006, 18:22
I'm a player who's definitely interested in Harlequins, but having a discussion in the Eldar Codex rumors forum is impossible... People start a little discussion and within a few hours it's buried under "omg teh deth jestir is tight yo!!!1"

So, Harlequins. Has GW commented about a possible codex? My theory is that the harlequins being released in the Eldar codex are going to be a testing ground for GW to decide whether to expand them and even make a real army out of them, and at least one person who sounded authoritative agree with me ;)

Is there information on how basic harlequins have changed? I hear that their stupid ass cover save (and no save in cc where they're supposed to be good) has been replaced with an invulnerable (dodge?) save. Other than I haven't heard anything about troupe members so I think we can assume they'll stay WS 5, BS 5, I5, S3, T3 with a shuri pistol and close combat weapon.

The harlequin's kiss is another tidbit I've picked up, apparently it's a rending weapon now. Does it shoot, or is it still cc only? I think it would be grand if every troupe member had a kiss with decent shooting capability (maybe S3 AP - Pistol Rending) but am not going to count on it. They really need something like that to be in line with Grey Knights who cost the same points (at least in the harlies old book). Either that or they need a serious point slashing.

What we'd want to see from a new Harlequins book: I think an army that played like a more fragile but faster Grey Knights list would be perfect. Obviously they wouldn't have the same teleportation but they'd have their flip belts and FoF. I would want to see very limited vehicle capacity for harlies, limited to Vypers and Harlequin wraithlords and possibly some Harlie jetbikes :D .

I think there's basically a 99% chance that if they do make a Harlequins book, it will look just like Witch Hunters and Demon Hunters, only for Eldar- You'll be able to add Eldar units to a Harlequins army, and Harlequins to an Eldar army. GW is a big fan of these 'expansion' books lately that encourage players to collect allies and such for their existing armies, so I'd be willing to bet money that harlies will use that format. I just hope that the Solitaire will be useable only in a Harlies list and only if no allies are taken... Either that or they'll have to nerf him, which would take away his whole Solitaire-ness.

The Purple Ninja
06-08-2006, 18:27
You say it's impossible and then do it anyway?

Did you mean to put this in general?

If not you're gonna get mod slapped for asking a question as a thread.

Shadowseer Crofty
06-08-2006, 18:28
I'm a player who's definitely interested in Harlequins, but having a discussion in the Eldar Codex rumors forum is impossible... People start a little discussion and within a few hours it's buried under "omg teh deth jestir is tight yo!!!1"
another harlie fan!


So, Harlequins. Has GW commented about a possible codex? My theory is that the harlequins being released in the Eldar codex are going to be a testing ground for GW to decide whether to expand them and even make a real army out of them, and at least one person who sounded authoritative agree with me ;)

in the original eldar codex rumour post, someon who had spoken to phil kelly told us that if people like the harlequin unit in the codex we might just get a harlequin codex.



They really need something like that to be in line with Grey Knights who cost the same points (at least in the harlies old book). Either that or they need a serious point slashing.
ive moaned about grey knights being too overpowered for 25 points, i reckon harlies should be reduced to 20 pts


limited to Vypers and Harlequin wraithlords and possibly some Harlie jetbikes :D .

A) what about the veenom? B)no wraithlord, doesnt fit with the harlie playing style or fluff.

Anarchist Angel
06-08-2006, 18:37
I'm a player who's definitely interested in Harlequins, but having a discussion in the Eldar Codex rumors forum is impossible... People start a little discussion and within a few hours it's buried under "omg teh deth jestir is tight yo!!!1"

So, Harlequins. Has GW commented about a possible codex? My theory is that the harlequins being released in the Eldar codex are going to be a testing ground for GW to decide whether to expand them and even make a real army out of them, and at least one person who sounded authoritative agree with me ;)

Is there information on how basic harlequins have changed? I hear that their stupid ass cover save (and no save in cc where they're supposed to be good) has been replaced with an invulnerable (dodge?) save. Other than I haven't heard anything about troupe members so I think we can assume they'll stay WS 5, BS 5, I5, S3, T3 with a shuri pistol and close combat weapon.

The harlequin's kiss is another tidbit I've picked up, apparently it's a rending weapon now. Does it shoot, or is it still cc only? I think it would be grand if every troupe member had a kiss with decent shooting capability (maybe S3 AP - Pistol Rending) but am not going to count on it. They really need something like that to be in line with Grey Knights who cost the same points (at least in the harlies old book). Either that or they need a serious point slashing.

What we'd want to see from a new Harlequins book: I think an army that played like a more fragile but faster Grey Knights list would be perfect. Obviously they wouldn't have the same teleportation but they'd have their flip belts and FoF. I would want to see very limited vehicle capacity for harlies, limited to Vypers and Harlequin wraithlords and possibly some Harlie jetbikes :D .

I think there's basically a 99% chance that if they do make a Harlequins book, it will look just like Witch Hunters and Demon Hunters, only for Eldar- You'll be able to add Eldar units to a Harlequins army, and Harlequins to an Eldar army. GW is a big fan of these 'expansion' books lately that encourage players to collect allies and such for their existing armies, so I'd be willing to bet money that harlies will use that format. I just hope that the Solitaire will be useable only in a Harlies list and only if no allies are taken... Either that or they'll have to nerf him, which would take away his whole Solitaire-ness.

First off as far as i know quins are I 6 and leaders are WS 6. They also have 2 attacks basic +1 for weapons.

Kisses should be limited to some members or it will be seriously unbalance everything. They should never be ranged (too hard to control a constantly unravelling wire without killing allies in the process) It makes no sense.

As quins are a more combat orientated army (even the bikes) they should not have vipers. Vipers have no combat purpose so would be unlikely to appear in a "expansion" quin book.

I think that the quin book may be written at one point but not for at least 3 to 4 years. Quins could function like the grey knight book but it would take a lot of altering to the current "trial" codex.

Wraithlords do not fit in with the fluff at all. quins promise thier soul to khaine so slaanesh cannot have it. They do not wear spirit stones so cannot use it to power a wraithlord. It would be an empty shell.

DCLXVI
06-08-2006, 18:39
B)no wraithlord, doesnt fit with the harlie playing style or fluff.
I've got 5k+ points worth of Harlies, so I'd definitely like to see something official, though asking for a whole codex might be too much at the moment. We'll see....
As for the Wraithlord - I use one (not in every battle though, obviously) as it's the only heavy scary thing we've got, barring Death Jesters of course.
My adage is...if you don't like the thought of using it, then don't!

IJW
06-08-2006, 18:46
B)no wraithlord, doesnt fit with the harlie playing style or fluff.
Try telling that to my Harlequin Dreadnought/Wraithlord - a conversion which turns sixteen or seventeen this year. Fluff-wise, WD 106 had an illustration by Jes Goodwin which had a Harlequin Dreadnought. Mind you, another illustration had a Harlequin Land Raider, as Harlequins used to scavenge vehicles from other races, rather like Orks do now...

DCLXVI
06-08-2006, 19:07
....a Harlequin Land Raider...

*HEH* I could never imagine myself using one of these hulking, clanking behemoths in a Harly army - so uncouth - and painting it pink no less! :D

IJW
06-08-2006, 19:11
Pink? Mine's a sedate white (slapped on over the original Imperial camo), with multi-coloured lozenges. Not that it's seen action for a looooong time

The dreadnought's greatest moment was taking out an opposing Land Raider - by headbutting it!

Anarchist Angel
06-08-2006, 19:12
Try telling that to my Harlequin Dreadnought/Wraithlord - a conversion which turns sixteen or seventeen this year. Fluff-wise, WD 106 had an illustration by Jes Goodwin which had a Harlequin Dreadnought. Mind you, another illustration had a Harlequin Land Raider, as Harlequins used to scavenge vehicles from other races, rather like Orks do now...

Soooo... Technically you have a 16 year old lump of purposeless wraithbone... Well try and have a happy birthday lol :D

Rabid Bunny 666
06-08-2006, 19:14
I'd have the Harlequins kiss wound on a 4+, like the Punisher.

A full Harlie Codex? Don't think so, perhaps a Chapter Approved article, not a full book, there just isn't enough for them.

Are Solitares a unit upgrade? They rocked so much.

Ixe
06-08-2006, 19:24
You say it's impossible and then do it anyway?

Did you mean to put this in general?

If not you're gonna get mod slapped for asking a question as a thread.

Excuse me, I mistated myself, I meant it's impossible to have a discussion in the eldar rumors thread because of all the drooling over new models, not in the forum... Thanks for jumping all over a simple and innocuous mistake though bud ;)

EnglishGrant
06-08-2006, 19:39
A full Harlie Codex? Don't think so, perhaps a Chapter Approved article, not a full book, there just isn't enough for them.


Firstly there's the comment above that Phil Kelly said that a Harlie Codex is possible. Also, Jervis Johnson, in the foreword to the experimental codex, said that "In the fullness of time we will be producing a full Harlequin Codex (though not for a while yet!)". This was written in June 2000.

washout
06-08-2006, 19:59
Quins promise thier soul to khaine so slaanesh cannot have it. They do not wear spirit stones so cannot use it to power a wraithlord. It would be an empty shell.
Huh? They are protected by the laughing god, so don't need spirit stones. Solitaires impersonate slaanesh and are doomed to be consumed and destroyed. Maybe they could convince a wraithlord to help them or something along those lines though. So it's not completely far fetched for them to have one in a troupe.

They used to get wraithlords as a selection, but that was back when they were eldar dreadnaughts. Though they were still controlled by the same mechanism, but I don't think they were wraithbone at that time.

Rabid Bunny 666
06-08-2006, 20:07
Firstly there's the comment above that Phil Kelly said that a Harlie Codex is possible. Also, Jervis Johnson, in the foreword to the experimental codex, said that "In the fullness of time we will be producing a full Harlequin Codex (though not for a while yet!)". This was written in June 2000.

But i can't se it happening, with

2 HQs: Lead Harlequin, Shadowseer

2 Elites: Desth Jesters, Solitares

1 Troop: Harlequin Troupe

1 Fast Attack: Harlequin Jetbike Troupe

1 Heavy support: Venom


too few options, and there is not much you could add in.

DCLXVI
06-08-2006, 20:19
too few options, and there is not much you could add in.
...which is why (call me a heretic if you will) I use the EldarOnline Revision - Wraithlords, Mimes, Jump-pack Troupes ( I call mine Silhouettes)...etc. More than enough to keep me happy!

Just saw the new Death Jester sculpt. Looks suitably maniacal! *drools*

Festus
06-08-2006, 21:07
But i can't se it happening, too few options, and there is not much you could add in.
Make it

2 HQs: Harlequin Avatar, Shadowseer

1 Elites: Solitaires

2 Troops: Mimes Troupe, Harlequin Troupe

1 Fast Attack: Harlequin Jetbike Troupe

2 Heavy support: Death Jesters (or Elite), Venom

and you'll have enough options for a supplemental 'dex either as a standalone or as an Eldar support codex.

Festus

Rabid Bunny 666
06-08-2006, 21:11
But wasn't GW trying to get rid of the mini-'dexes?

Brotherdraagor
06-08-2006, 21:41
ive moaned about grey knights being too overpowered for 25 points, i reckon harlies should be reduced to 20 pts



*sighs* Nice to see you've branched to other forums Crofty. On that little complaint, you've no right to comment as your poncy little Harlie list ponced straight past my Space Marine Brute Squads in kill team. Personally I think Grey Knights are either the correct cost, or slightly over costed with the current anti MEQ heavy enviroment, nemesis weapons and storm bolters do diddly when your marines are falling to plasma fire and vehicles. However that is another discussion for another time. Back on topic.

I like harlies, so don't take me as a whiny marine player, but I think a whole army of them seems a tad out of character. From what I've read, Harlies aren't that numerous at all, and so an armies worth gathering is a pretty rare event. With this in mind, having them as an elites choice in the Eldar Codecies seems like a good idea to me, as long as they pack a decent punch. Still, in the end I'm no expert, and wouldn't complain if a Harlie list came out (provided it could be beaten by Grey Knights of course...can't have Crofty beating me).

IJW
06-08-2006, 21:52
Fluffwise you could see a whole army of Harlequins, but normally only if there is some kind of Chaos/Deamon on the opposing side.

Ixe
07-08-2006, 02:15
But i can't se it happening, with

2 HQs: Lead Harlequin, Shadowseer

2 Elites: Desth Jesters, Solitares

1 Troop: Harlequin Troupe

1 Fast Attack: Harlequin Jetbike Troupe

1 Heavy support: Venom


too few options, and there is not much you could add in.

That's the whole crux of my speculation on a WH/DH style codex being written for Harlies. If a Harlequin codex included various Eldar and Dark Eldar units, as well as a few new and unique choices (like a vehicle or two), it could work. Of course, that means Harlies would have to come out after Dark Eldar... Which will be a long time indeed :p

Bronka
07-08-2006, 09:19
To be honest, they always seemed to me like some kind of Eldar Space-Circus, with the foolish unit names and such. Then I saw the garishly painted models and thought they were a Camp Eldar Space-Circus.

Admittedly, their fluff is quite good, but until GW gets rid of the image of Eldar Clowns jumping around in frilly pink tights, the average punter isn't going to give them a second thought.

Bregalad
07-08-2006, 10:09
Their looks are in no way weirder than the Dark Eldar one ;)

I also think that we have the possibility of a printed Harlequin Codex. They fight together with Eldar or Dark Eldar troops and these may fill up the list as in the DH and WH Codex (which have basically ONE special troop, ONE special Elite and ONE special HQ, only with variations). And thr rules for Harlequins as Allies may also take some pages.

BTW, I think this thread might be the place to post some Harlequin links and pics. Here is a link to the background and models of some "Dark Harlequins":
http://www.agisn.de/html/dark_harlequins.html

luchog
07-08-2006, 22:56
and you'll have enough options for a supplemental 'dex either as a standalone or as an Eldar support codex.

And, to make it fit the fluff, Harleys should be able to take "allied" units from both Eldar and Dark Eldar, so it would make a good quasi-standalone, similar to Witchhunters.

carl
07-08-2006, 23:21
me, i see no problem with eithier the small unit numbers or the idea of an army if done properly. a good well written harlequin codex will probebly have less than 30 models in 2000pt's, thats completly within reason for a traveling troupe.

Fluff wise i would expect that one troupe to be able to destroy an entire SM 1st company. or hold back most of a hive fleet.

what can you do to an oponnent who is too hard to see to aim at
moves too fast to hit
and is armed so well that nothing can stop his blows.

Ixe
08-08-2006, 02:28
The Harlies occupy a nebulous position in the fluff... If they're the Eldar's most potent weapon against Chaos, why didn't they show up in the EoT campaign? Or did they, but somehow their brightly colored clothes and techno music went unnoticed?

As far as ideas go for a quasi standalone Harlie codex, one thing that might help round them out are 'Servituers', or Eldar Guardians and DE Warriors who follow a Troupe into battle. The name Serviteur comes from voodoo priests' servants who are often vessels for the voodoo gods, Loa, to be summoned into. The name doesn't exactly fit, except that it's a cool franchification of the word 'servitor' which would definitely make sense.

starlight
08-08-2006, 03:17
I'm a player who's definitely interested in Harlequins, but having a discussion in the Eldar Codex rumors forum is impossible... People start a little discussion and within a few hours it's buried under "omg teh deth jestir is tight yo!!!1"

So, Harlequins. Has GW commented about a possible codex? My theory is that the harlequins being released in the Eldar codex are going to be a testing ground for GW to decide whether to expand them and even make a real army out of them, and at least one person who sounded authoritative agree with me ;)

Is there information on how basic harlequins have changed? I hear that their stupid ass cover save (and no save in cc where they're supposed to be good) has been replaced with an invulnerable (dodge?) save. Other than I haven't heard anything about troupe members so I think we can assume they'll stay WS 5, BS 5, I5, S3, T3 with a shuri pistol and close combat weapon.

The harlequin's kiss is another tidbit I've picked up, apparently it's a rending weapon now. Does it shoot, or is it still cc only? I think it would be grand if every troupe member had a kiss with decent shooting capability (maybe S3 AP - Pistol Rending) but am not going to count on it. They really need something like that to be in line with Grey Knights who cost the same points (at least in the harlies old book). Either that or they need a serious point slashing.

What we'd want to see from a new Harlequins book: I think an army that played like a more fragile but faster Grey Knights list would be perfect. Obviously they wouldn't have the same teleportation but they'd have their flip belts and FoF. I would want to see very limited vehicle capacity for harlies, limited to Vypers and Harlequin wraithlords and possibly some Harlie jetbikes :D.

I think there's basically a 99% chance that if they do make a Harlequins book, it will look just like Witch Hunters and Demon Hunters, only for Eldar- You'll be able to add Eldar units to a Harlequins army, and Harlequins to an Eldar army. GW is a big fan of these 'expansion' books lately that encourage players to collect allies and such for their existing armies, so I'd be willing to bet money that harlies will use that format. I just hope that the Solitaire will be useable only in a Harlies list and only if no allies are taken... Either that or they'll have to nerf him, which would take away his whole Solitaire-ness.

From the top:

Yes - Harlequins are in Codex: Eldar as an Elites choice - at least. Your assumption about testing the waters is correct as far as anyone has been able to determine.

Nothing carved in stone, but scuttlebutt says closer to DE Wyches (Dodge Save).

Nothing official on the Kiss, but I *seriously* doubt it will be ranged.

Basically they’ll be a notch better overall than DE Wyches for MEq-ish points.

I see them being closer to SoB Seraphim than Grey Knights. A bit overpriced, but cool rules and *very* cool to play - especially for us old-timers. And yes, I do see the eventual Harlequin Codex as an Eldar version of the Codex: Inquisition/Hunter books. Even cooler.:D

And NO Wraithlords!!!:mad:

Epicenter
08-08-2006, 03:49
I love Harlequins. I still have a few of their models from the RT days, not enough to make a full army, though. Not even enough to make a squad or troupe or mime coven or whatever they call their units these days.

I'd really be interested in Harlequin rules for 40k that weren't totally over-the-top in powers with models that are totally overpriced, but when you discover certain combos and buy your army that way, they're totally underpriced for what you get and almost unbeatable with complementary psychic powers, wargear, and ability stacking. Unfortunately, that's how the one in the Journal was, I recall.



ive moaned about grey knights being too overpowered for 25 points, i reckon harlies should be reduced to 20 pts

I don't think GKs are underpriced. GKs if anything are a tad OP, in my opinion. Yes, they're good in melee, but getting them there is a problem. They either teleport, ride a vehicle (not that good since they took out Marines on a Skateboard), or walk, and GKs don't walk fast. Anyone with good anti-MEQ ranged weaponry can really savage a GK force.

Harlequins, in many ways are like GKs without that mobility problem.

Due to their nature, would be extremely hard to balance and assign a correct points cost to.

A WS5, BS5, S3 (often with some ability that lets them reroll failed wounding rolls), I5 or I6 (and usually some 'first attack' mechanism like a Banshee mask), with 2 or more power weapons attacks, Fleet of Foot, an 4+ or 5+ invuln save, the ability to probably Infiltrate and Hit-And-Run, and having assault-right-from-the-vehicle transports like the Dark Eldar do - which seems to be how most people (including GW) seem to imagine Harlequins - wouldn't be a 25 point model. It'd be closer to 30 or 40 each, maybe more. Certainly not 20.

Despite the dangers of being totally overpowered, I'd still like to see, them though.

SisterMordagg
08-08-2006, 07:30
I like harlies, so don't take me as a whiny marine player, but I think a whole army of them seems a tad out of character. From what I've read, Harlies aren't that numerous at all, and so an armies worth gathering is a pretty rare event. With this in mind, having them as an elites choice in the Eldar Codecies seems like a good idea to me, as long as they pack a decent punch. Still, in the end I'm no expert, and wouldn't complain if a Harlie list came out (provided it could be beaten by Grey Knights of course...can't have Crofty beating me).

Then again, every battle will not have a company master of a space marine chapter present.

Now, an epic Harlequin wouldn't work. But with how small the 40k battles are, I think it is reasonable.

noneedforaname
08-08-2006, 08:05
harlequins aren't a fighting force per se they are a living history of the eldar remembered through there performances and act as a bridge between the old (dark eldar) and the new (craft world eldar). There performance abilities can be turned to combat and make them effective assault troops but there are too few to make them a full blown army.

purplehoob
08-08-2006, 08:21
Well I can forsee my Harlequins army getting dug out of the back of the cupboard, I can also forsee financial ruin as I buy way too many new models, especially Death Jesters.

Token purchase of Dire Avengers and a maxing out of the elite Harlequins, I for one welcome the new eldar codex and await a full Harlequins codex. Something promised since about 1997, but never delivered.

Eversor
08-08-2006, 11:23
harlequins aren't a fighting force per se [snip]
:skull: Uhm ... Uhm.

Read your Compilation and 2:nd edition Eldar Codex again. Come back when you're done ;)

A7X
08-08-2006, 17:22
Just saw the new Death Jester sculpt. Looks suitably maniacal! *drools*

can someone show me where this is? its been mentioned loads but i just cant find it!

carl
08-08-2006, 18:25
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40873

it's nere the bottom of the page

Icarus
08-08-2006, 18:32
The Harlies occupy a nebulous position in the fluff... If they're the Eldar's most potent weapon against Chaos, why didn't they show up in the EoT campaign? Or did they, but somehow their brightly colored clothes and techno music went unnoticed?

They were mentioned in the Eye of Terror campaign. Harlequin troupes fought alongside the Ulthwe Strike Force in defending the Webway from Ahriman and his forces, and the Harlequinade of the Red Masque captured Inquisitor Czevak to secure his knowledge as to the location of the Black Library.

carl
08-08-2006, 18:47
and the Harlequinade of the Red Masque captured Inquisitor Czevak to secure his knowledge as to the location of the Black Library.

Yeah, and Ahriman had him captured so you can bet Ahriman was protecting him with as much stuff as he could. In other words one Troupe went right through a large part of the very best of the Thousand sons and didn't even break a sweat. OOOUUCH:evilgrin: :skull: !

Ixe
08-08-2006, 18:55
They were mentioned in the Eye of Terror campaign. Harlequin troupes fought alongside the Ulthwe Strike Force in defending the Webway from Ahriman and his forces, and the Harlequinade of the Red Masque captured Inquisitor Czevak to secure his knowledge as to the location of the Black Library.

Oh, that makes me happy then, thanks :D And even the Dark Eldar had some part in it too, something about the Inquisition attacking Commoragh to find clues about the Black Library?

A7X
08-08-2006, 19:06
thanks! :)

it already on the relic forums after that...lol

ThousandPlateaus
08-08-2006, 19:12
Sweet Jesus! That Death Jester's beautiful!
How on earth did I miss that? Whoo! Someone's troop will be making their way back out of my cupboard!

noneedforaname
08-08-2006, 19:20
eversor look up the meaning of per se and them come back.

It does not exclude them as a fighting force it simply implies that there role primarily is other than fighting.

Son of the Lion
08-08-2006, 19:50
I was just about to say that. Though I would put forward it's more of a case of the two roles (dance/mime + combat) simply being two sides of the same coin for the eldar.

Anubis_the_Harlie
08-08-2006, 21:40
I've recently been trying Gav's list and I love it... the Harlequins are not overpowered in the slightest. In fact even when I win i'm left with very few models on the field at the end of the game, they are a wonderful army and I hope GW hurry up and get a codex out because I want to use them outside of my gaming club and unfortunaly Gav's list isn't that official :cries:

Ghost Dog
08-08-2006, 22:21
I didn't know if you Harlequin fans had ever seen this. It's an Inquisitor scale Harlequin.

ThousandPlateaus
08-08-2006, 22:40
I'm not overly keen on the hair (it looks too much like a paintbrush still), but otherwise, that's amazing!

I love Gav's list, and with minor tweaking, I don't see that much wrong with it as an official list - it's difficult, complicated and expensive, exactly what the Harlequins should be like, imho.

The Solitaire is crazily good, but then he should be, he's part Slaanesh and a terrifying psychic abomination - not even the strongest force in the Universe can stand to be near him/her except when they have to be!

And knowing you're going to spend the rest of eternity in abject, absolute, insufferable pain and torment is enough to drive you a bit doo-lally! Even I'd be a crazed psychopath in those conditions!

Harlequin fluff is just insurmountably good and I refuse to believe they're just the creations of the 'First Old Ones' (pffffft! lame!)

/Ramble...

buried_alive
08-08-2006, 22:55
Wych Cult Harlequin army (drools)................


Seriously thou, the Harlequin fluff is too good to ignore, GWs recent 'the ctan wot dun it' attitude is so lame. A full Harlequin codex probably would be limited in choices; however a lavish fluff filled codex with the original fluff and new Harlequin/Thousand Son/ Dark Eldar would be appreciated.

Bregalad
08-08-2006, 23:19
I didn't know if you Harlequin fans had ever seen this. It's an Inquisitor scale Harlequin.

Was it on sale once or custom built? Here is another one in Inquisitor scale not available anymore (more pics here: http://www.miniaturespace.net/inquisitor_scale_eldar_harlequin.htm )

carl
08-08-2006, 23:24
@Bregalad your link dosen't work.

silverstu
08-08-2006, 23:24
Personally i hope they bring back mimes- infiltrating stealthy jack-in-the-box surprise you're dead moments. Oh and harlies used to have seers in every unit- warlocks lead by a high warlock in original terminology. they could definately do a lot with harlies if they gave them their own list, in terms of models, fluff and extending the scope of the eldar. Heres hoping.

Souleater
08-08-2006, 23:24
How are they going to balance this?
I mean wyches are nasty in HTH, right? They have raiders to get them into assault very quickly.

Presumably the Quins will have something similar (possibly a webway portal, too) because otherwise they costumes will get dirty.

Then better in hth than a wyche and with access to rending?

I can see them becoming the 'no-brainer' choice in CE (and possibly DE) armies.

I cover my eyes in terror at the thought of an entire army of super-wych-raider-clowns

(Covers eyes)

ThousandPlateaus
08-08-2006, 23:57
@Bregalad your link dosen't work.

Delete the colon and bracket in your browser-bar-thingummy.


Was it on sale once or custom built? Here is another one in Inquisitor scale not available anymore (more pics here: http://www.miniaturespace.net/inquisitor_scale_eldar_harlequin.htm):

That's a lovely paintjob, too - not keen on the mask, though; she has the best mask:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010400915&orignav=301117

Bregalad
09-08-2006, 00:06
Link fixed. Here is another good website dedicated exclusively to harlequins, including a Dawn of War patch for harlequins :)
http://www.thedancemacabre.com/

Eversor
09-08-2006, 00:17
eversor look up the meaning of per se and them come back.

It does not exclude them as a fighting force it simply implies that there role primarily is other than fighting.

:skull: I do know what it means, even though I'm Swedish ;) Sorry if I sounded snorky, but the Harlequins have always been portrayed as the creme de la creme of assault troops - across the board, not only among Eldar. They have a dual role in Eldar society, of course, but are far from stage artists and lore keepers that happen to be able to use their skills for war; which is what I interpreted your post as saying.

I'll gladly agree with your assessment that they're not enough for a full army though - the scematic in the Compedium doesn't allow for more than 57 warriors in a Masque (plus a Solitaire). Even though a single Harlequin can take on his fair share of opponents, a Masque isn't prepared to handle anything over a company level engagement. Which is roughly what 40k represents. So a "full army" in 40k terms: absolutely. A "full army" when it comes to the true sense of an army: absolutely not.

Edit: As a bonus, here's a quick rundown of how I see the Harlequin army, from a force organisation standpoint.

HQ
0-1 Great Harlequin
0-1 Shadow Seer

ELITES
Mimes - Each slot buys 1-3 mimes. Something like that. There has never been a real army list entry for Mimes, but I see them sort of like Death Cult assassins.
0-1 Master Mime - Again, never been seen in an army list. Something akin to an Assassinorum Assassin.
0-1 Solitaire

TROOPS
Harlequin Troupers - can be upgraded with Troupe leaders (Avatars) and/or Minor Warlocks.

FAST ATTACK
Jetbikers
(Venom) - Not decided on this one, it's not a part of Harlequin canon.
(Troupers with flight belts) - And neither are these. Function like jump packers, I guess.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Death Jesters - 'Nuff said.
(Looted vehicles) - Cut n' paste from the Ork rules, but allows for looted Eldar tanks as well. Or perhaps just Eldar tanks.
(Wraithlord) - Again, not part of the canon.

ThousandPlateaus
09-08-2006, 00:23
Seriously thou, the Harlequin fluff is too good to ignore, GWs recent 'the ctan wot dun it' attitude is so lame.

Yeah, exactly.
*Controversial*: I'd be quite happy to find out that Harlequins aren't actually Eldar but are something other, rather than just have them as C'tan/Old One toys... current fluff is just antithetical to everything I've ever known aboout the Eldar and it ruins so much imho...

carl
09-08-2006, 00:32
I'll gladly agree with your assessment that they're not enough for a full army though - the scematic in the Compedium doesn't allow for more than 57 warriors in a Masque (plus a Solitaire). Even though a single Harlequin can take on his fair share of opponents, a Masque isn't prepared to handle anything over a company level engagement.

In EOT a single troupe (which i gather is smaller than a Masque) went rescued a very important captive from the Thousand Sons, your telling me they didn't have to go through his guards (which considering his importance would be a company at the minimum) to get him. and they didn't even break a sweat doing it. take a look at them in epic. they are frankly the single most lethal formation availible and will beat any other formation of comparable price and day of the week.

Zzarchov
09-08-2006, 00:36
I'd like to point out there are probably more Harlequins than Grey Knights in Existence, and you can have an all Grey Knight army.

Eversor
09-08-2006, 01:01
In EOT a single troupe (which i gather is smaller than a Masque) went rescued a very important captive from the Thousand Sons, your telling me they didn't have to go through his guards (which considering his importance would be a company at the minimum) to get him. and they didn't even break a sweat doing it. take a look at them in epic. they are frankly the single most lethal formation availible and will beat any other formation of comparable price and day of the week.

A troupe is a single squad, consisting of 10-ish models - but in this case there might be a bit of ... shall we call it artistic license in play. Recent background history tends to be incredibly shaky, to say the least. Troupe in this instance might indeed refer to an entire Masque.

Back to the point. Harlequins are very shy in the support section, meaning that they alone would be of little use in a war. Smaller raid actions - say, rescuing a captive or assaulting an enemy position in Epic - is where a Harlequin force would excel. Large tank battles? Super heavies? Protracted trench warfare? Holding territory? Here's where you call in the real armies.

EDIT: Updated with more recent squad sizes, but still using the Masque diagram from the Compendium, a Harlequin force would be limited to 81 models, plus a Solitaire and any vehicles. This breaks down like so:

1 Great Harlequin
0-1 Shadow Seer
0-6 Warlocks
0-1 Master Mime
0-6 Mimes
0-6 Death Jesters
1-6 Troupes, each consisting of 5-10 models

Ixe
09-08-2006, 01:09
ELITES
Mimes - Each slot buys 1-3 mimes. Something like that. There has never been a real army list entry for Mimes, but I see them sort of like Death Cult assassins.
Master Mime - Again, never been seen in an army list. Something akin to an Assassinorum Assassin.
Solitaire


0-1 Solitaire! Do not forget! Only 0-1 Soliatires or there will be violence! :mad:

Eversor
09-08-2006, 01:20
0-1 Solitaire! Do not forget! Only 0-1 Soliatires or there will be violence! :mad:
:skull: Yeah, sorry ... Solitaires, Master Mimes, Great Harlequins and Shadow Seers are all limited to one each. I shouldn't be posting at two in the morning ;)

Also, Warlocks might make more sense as a Shadow Seer retinue than squad upgrades/additions. Or possibly an elite choice of 1-X per slot. It's hard to get an entire Masque to fit into a single force organisation chart. Then again, perhaps it shouldn't fit ...

Ixe
09-08-2006, 03:05
I believe you forgot the Avatar of the Laughing God, he should probably be HQ... Or did you mean that avatars are upgrades for squad leaders? I thought the Harlequin Avatar was a big badboy like the Avatar of Khaine, but maybe I'm mistaken?

Also, are mimes holdovers from 2nd ed, or are they a new invention from WD during 3rd ed?

Eversor
09-08-2006, 10:24
Or did you mean that avatars are upgrades for squad leaders? I thought the Harlequin Avatar was a big badboy like the Avatar of Khaine, but maybe I'm mistaken?
:skull: In the original WD/Compendium army list, Harlequin troupe/squad leaders were called Avatars. The High Avatar was the army commander. When 2:nd edition rolled along, they changed names to troupe leaders and Great Harlequins, respectively. Likewise, the High Warlock was renamed Shadow Seer - and the "lesser" Warlocks were axed.


Also, are mimes holdovers from 2nd ed, or are they a new invention from WD during 3rd ed?
Nope, they're described in the original article but only had a statline, no further rules or army list entry. They were curiously missing from the 2:nd edition Eldar Codex, and only made a comeback in some sort of update to the trial Journal codex. Described as infiltrators, assassins and saboteurs; on stage, they play daemonic and mystic roles.

ThousandPlateaus
09-08-2006, 10:25
Hang on - what list's this (the trial Journal Codex), I've only got the Gav Thorpe list.

Eversor
09-08-2006, 10:32
Hang on - what list's this (the trial Journal Codex), I've only got the Gav Thorpe list.
:skull: Yeah, that's the one I meant ;) Originally published in the Citadel Journal. There was some sort of update a few issues later which I believe added Wraithlords and Mimes to the list. Sadly, the Mimes were done as Troops, which they should not be. I haven't got that issue so I have no more details, nor an idea who wrote it.

ThousandPlateaus
09-08-2006, 11:02
Ah, o.k - I must have the earlier one sans Mimes and Wraithlords.
An excellent list, though!

Shadowseer Crofty
09-08-2006, 12:07
*sighs* Nice to see you've branched to other forums Crofty. On that little complaint, you've no right to comment as your poncy little Harlie list ponced straight past my Space Marine Brute Squads in kill team.

which has sod all to do with harlies being too expensive, underpowered, overpowered or any other complaint about the harlequins, they ponced right past you because your marines were listening to toby foster on the vox, and i got decent dice rolling for a change.


Personally I think Grey Knights are either the correct cost, or slightly over costed with the current anti MEQ heavy enviroment, nemesis weapons and storm bolters do diddly when your marines are falling to plasma fire and vehicles. However that is another discussion for another time. Back on topic.

you would say that. and anti meq??? those those little (vulgarity)s can instant death an archon, and they are the armies standard troops. and i agree that nemesis weapons and storm bolters do diddly against plasma fire, but that 'ha ha you can't see me cos im in grey armour' rule helps. so, assault 2 bolters, s6 in combat and 'if i cant see you you cant see me, so i'll close my eyes' + the stats of meqs=underpriced or overpowered (and do they get the move through cover rule? or am i thinking something else?). hell, incubi are the same price, they die easier, and are armed with splinter psitols (admittedly they have power weapons but still only s4)



I like harlies, so don't take me as a whiny marine player
but i know you are a whiny marine player. and what happened to hating all eldar (especially since that wych cult gave you a right thrapping and my mimes ponced right past you)?


but I think a whole army of them seems a tad out of character. From what I've read, Harlies aren't that numerous at all, and so an armies worth gathering is a pretty rare event. With this in mind, having them as an elites choice in the Eldar Codecies seems like a good idea to me, as long as they pack a decent punch. Still, in the end I'm no expert, and wouldn't complain if a Harlie list came out (provided it could be beaten by Grey Knights of course...can't have Crofty beating me).

they are just as numerous as grey knights, yet you can have an army entirely of them. and considering the amount in an armies worth using the experimental list it cant be that rare, i once managed to fit about 15 troops into 1500 points (it was a pointless wargear to make up the points army).
and, cant have me beating you? whay about the 2on2 game, my DE and some lost and damp vs you and some ultramarines? <---Comment Deleted by the WarSeer Inquisition--->

carl
09-08-2006, 13:26
which has sod all to do with harlies being too expensive, underpowered, overpowered or any other complaint about the harlequins, they ponced right past you because your marines were listening to toby foster on the vox, and i got decent dice rolling for a change.

It sounded like a gentle wind up tio me, no need to get areated.


you would say that. and anti meq??? those those little (vulgarity)s can instant death an archon, and they are the armies standard troops. and i agree that nemesis weapons and storm bolters do diddly against plasma fire, but that 'ha ha you can't see me cos im in grey armour' rule helps. so, assault 2 bolters, s6 in combat and 'if i cant see you you cant see me, so i'll close my eyes' + the stats of meqs=underpriced or overpowered (and do they get the move through cover rule? or am i thinking something else?). hell, incubi are the same price, they die easier, and are armed with splinter psitols (admittedly they have power weapons but still only s4)

Have you ever seen GK's play? i've had the luxuary of seeing 2 dozen games and even played against them a couple of times. an i can tell you right now that they ARE overpiced. the probelm is shrouding raerly works at below 24" and one good volley of heavy weapons fire from most armies tends to wipe out half the army in my experiance. there just arn't enough models when one considers the quantity of stuff that bypasses their save.


but i know you are a whiny marine player. and what happened to hating all eldar (especially since that wych cult gave you a right thrapping and my mimes ponced right past you)?

Theres no need to go out of your way to be insulting to somone, be a littile annoyed or upset at their comments yes, but don't just drop outright insults in, please, i'd like a nice forum if it can be avoided.


they are just as numerous as grey knights, yet you can have an army entirely of them. and considering the amount in an armies worth using the experimental list it cant be that rare, i once managed to fit about 15 troops into 1500 points

Iv'e seen simlar.


(it was a pointless wargear to make up the points army).
and, cant have me beating you? whay about the 2on2 game, my DE and some lost and damp vs you and some ultramarines? though is suppose your mind wasnt on the game after that bloke gave you a quickie in the toilets.

Unless i'm misunderstanding tis comment i think the last line dosen't really belong in this forum.

Bronka
09-08-2006, 13:41
Quick question: apart from the Death Jester, are there any new models coming out?

librerian_samae
09-08-2006, 13:45
One would asume troupe and shadow seer models

ex-green
09-08-2006, 15:13
I hope that the quins make a reappearance as I have a couple of thousand points of army waiting to get back into action if they get their own codex.
If not then it looks like I start an eldar army just to play a troupe or two.

As to GK's, too expensive and too few to be truly effictive on the field and against demons who they are supposed to excell against, yes they wound them but the demons still get a save.

If quins are the eldar version of GK's lets see them negate the demon inv save.

Sai-Lauren
09-08-2006, 15:32
Make it

2 HQs: Harlequin Avatar, Shadowseer

1 Elites: Solitaires

2 Troops: Mimes Troupe, Harlequin Troupe

1 Fast Attack: Harlequin Jetbike Troupe

2 Heavy support: Death Jesters (or Elite), Venom

and you'll have enough options for a supplemental 'dex either as a standalone or as an Eldar support codex.

Festus
In my view -
Death Jester to Elite (probably as a 1-3 choice like =][= Death Cult Assassins).
Solitaire should be HQ. Otherwise, even with the move of DJs to Elite, every single Harlie army would have one, and they're supposed to be rare (possibly even having restrictions like a special character).
Mimes to Fast Attack (with Infiltrate)
And instead of the Venom - what about Harlequins using the Dark Eldar Raider?

They do recruit from all Eldar cultures after all.

I'd guess they could also do with one or two new choices as well - maybe a heavier infantry assault unit in Heavy Support (Troubadors?) - slower than troupes (if Troupes have fleet, they don't) but with a better Dathedi field save and more nasty CC weapons.

Or something that reflects the Eldar Pantheon in the harlequin's plays/dances - Great Harlie plays the Laughing God, Jesters play Death and Solitaires play Slaanesh, but the rest of the troupes tend to play mortal/minor daemonic roles.

Ixe
09-08-2006, 15:45
I think transported harlies are a bad idea... Then they would play exactly like a DE wych cult, except with fewer and more powerful people. They should look more like a faster Grey Knights, though with infiltrating units.

And what about some sort of webway technology? Harlies are supposedly masters of the webway, but all I've ever seen so far is the venom which is basically a hover sled that transports them around the webway but has nothing special about it...

ThousandPlateaus
09-08-2006, 17:48
Solitaire should be HQ. Otherwise, even with the move of DJs to Elite, every single Harlie army would have one, and they're supposed to be rare (possibly even having restrictions like a special character).


All troupes have a Solitaire as all troupes have to have Slaanesh in their dances of the Fall; personally, I'd make a Solitaire, an Avatar/Great Harlequin and a Shadowseer mandatory in a Harlequin army.

noneedforaname
09-08-2006, 18:01
how about something similar to the gate psychic power instead of transports and allow them to break from combat a la callidus assasin, ha ha tricked you, now leg it. This enables them to get troops quickly in the right place without relying on transports, the other bit means they won't get bogged down in mass combats.

Shadowseer Crofty
09-08-2006, 18:07
It sounded like a gentle wind up tio me, no need to get areated.
draagors gentle wind ups can get annoying when I hear them every game. I'm beginning to take the comments about my painting in good humour, but its still annoying.

Have you ever seen GK's play?
indeed I have, 2 squads and a grand master just about won my last game against draagor single handedly.
[qote]i've had the luxuary of seeing 2 dozen games and even played against them a couple of times. an i can tell you right now that they ARE overpiced. the probelm is shrouding raerly works at below 24" and one good volley of heavy weapons fire from most armies tends to wipe out half the army in my experiance. there just arn't enough models when one considers the quantity of stuff that bypasses their save.[/quote]
it does work at less than 24", ive seen it happen before. one grand master couldnt be seen by a large assortment of dark lances and splinter rifles at less than 24".
either grey knights are underpriced or incubi are overpriced.

Theres no need to go out of your way to be insulting to somone, be a littile annoyed or upset at their comments yes, but don't just drop outright insults in, please, i'd like a nice forum if it can be avoided.
he know i dont really mean the insults, we have a tendency to insult each other all the time.

Unless i'm misunderstanding tis comment i think the last line dosen't really belong in this forum.
its just a joke i make often, since a bloke picked draagor up during a game and carried him off to the toilets. nothing happened, he came back a few seconds later. he doesnt mind that joke, or me referring to the bloke as his boyfriend.

carl
09-08-2006, 19:37
@ Shadowseer Crofty: Sorry, sounded a bit too insulting to be joking. Thanks for letting me know, I’ll bear it in mind for future reference.

I didn't mean to imply shrouding never works at below 24" but I don't see it protect most of the squads.

Likewise, I never implied they can't win. I just haven't seen them get a good win/loss ratio as proper DH.

Much of the success of a GK force depends on army composition.

Go for lots of Storm Troopers and Inducted guard with just a few GK's trailing along behind and they work great as they provide a much needed CC punch and the enemy has more important things to shoot.

Go for a proper DH force of a roughly even quantity of GK and Storm Troopers with littlie or no inducted IG and the ST get wasted turn one and by turn 3/4 there’s usually only the terminators and a squad of GK's left and the GK are only just in assault.

GK just don’t have the numbers to take the shots and shrouding doesn’t protect them enough of the time.

If where going to discuss it furthar i suggest a seprate thread.

luchog
09-08-2006, 20:27
All troupes have a Solitaire as all troupes have to have Slaanesh in their dances of the Fall; personally, I'd make a Solitaire, an Avatar/Great Harlequin and a Shadowseer mandatory in a Harlequin army.

I don't really like the idea of mandatory unit, aside from the "HQ and Two
Troop" plate.

Solitaires work fine as 0-1 Elites for me, it fits their fluff and their fighting style. And, fluffwise, not all troupes necessarily have a Solitaire participating at all times, as he's only necessary for performing the Fall and is not present in any other stories.

I think the Gav Thorpe list is fine with a couple of minor modifications, since Harley's can take allies from both Eldar and Dark Eldar, and should be able to show up on the side of nearly any non-Chaos army (though I don't think it fits, fluff-wise, for them to be supporting Necrons or 'Nids). Actually planning on running Harley's with SoBs at some point in the near future.

IJW
09-08-2006, 20:42
All troupes have a Solitaire as all troupes have to have Slaanesh in their dances of the Fall; personally, I'd make a Solitaire, an Avatar/Great Harlequin and a Shadowseer mandatory in a Harlequin army.
?!? According to the fluff, the Solitaires are almost always solitary - rarely joining a masque. The whole reason the fall is rarely performed as a dance is because of needing a Solitaire...

A mandatory Solitaire would oppose the fluff and be rather limiting in game terms.

Ixe
09-08-2006, 23:50
I wouldn't want to see harlies as an anyone's allies kind of list... They can never quite get a single list 100% points balanced through playtesting, but imagine if you could add harlies to anything non chaos? Forget about balance. The harlequins are indeed mysterious and will often work on the same side as other races to accomplish their goals, but how often would other races work on their side? Eldar and humans have not been allies since 2nd ed, in the current incarnation of the fluff, EVERY race is so insanely xenophobic that alliances with harlies would be rare. Every race but the Tau that is, except the Tau would have to give them control collars or send them to reeducation camps to make sure they never betray the greater good...

carl
09-08-2006, 23:59
I think as allies they just happen to turn up at the same time as their opponent, they are not real allies in the traditional sense, they just happen to be fighting the same force at the same time. However, they would probably be a bit OTT in some armies (Tau anyone).

p.s I am working on my own version of the Harlequins dex and would like suggestions on new weapons/units. The thread is here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44979) (shameless plug i know):p .