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Death_walks
06-08-2006, 21:00
i have this debate with a friend on this topic and i wondered.
Who would win this contest. please use arguments

Rabid Bunny 666
06-08-2006, 21:02
Depends. Guardians are better armed, but Guardsmen are more numerous, though this depends on the General using them ;)

Outlaw289
07-08-2006, 03:27
Guardsmen

Longer range guns, cheaper, more numerous, and doctrine upgrades

cailus
07-08-2006, 03:41
The Eldar Guardian appears to be an almost useless unit other than to act as a meatshield for heavy weapons.

IG serve this role too but are cheaper than Guardians and with their 24 inch range lasrifle are more survivable and can deal more damage if behind cover than a Guardian who has to run the gauntlet to let lose witgh his Shuriken catapult.

I awlays wondered what Gav Thorpe was smoking/injecting when he came up with the 3rd edition Eldar and Blood Angel codexes (free jump pack/Rhino/Power fist/weapon for free for a unit equipped with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge!)

Khaine's Messenger
07-08-2006, 05:56
Who would win this contest.

Do you mean, between a squad of Guardians (storm or defenders) and a squad of Guardsmen, who would win? I would argue that they're reasonably well matched, all things considered, but they're not really meant to fulfill the same roles and aren't really equipped similarly. Guardians are fast, generally short-ranged, well-led (even if poorly organised), and expensive, while Guardsmen are ponderous, long-ranged, cheap as dirt, and highly hierarchical and usually have competant leaders.

If I were forced to put money on one side or the other, I would put it on the Guardsmen. They will have range on the Eldar a good deal of the time (which can be mitigated by terrain, but then if the Guardsmen have chosen their lanes of fire well it won't matter one jot), and the Eldar, for all their speed, are going to be hard-pressed to bring their available firepower to bear effectively.

In-game, it's more of a toss-up. All of the Eldar's weapons are good enough to eviscerate a squad of guardsmen...if they can maneuver correctly. And once they shoot their load (ahem), they're going to be ridiculously open to counterattack unless they were softening up targets for assault troops, and beefing out their numbers will only add to the cost of their squad. In other words...yeah, a squad of Guardians would utterly devestate a squad of Guardsmen. But you're not fighting a squad of Guardsmen, most of the time....

Corlock Striker
07-08-2006, 16:43
This is an interesting question. For the moment, let's assume that if Heavy Weaponry is given to the Guardians, it'll be one that is meant for eliminating light infantry, so either a Shuriken Cannon, or a Scatter Laser. Not going to consider the Missle Launcher, because it's a single shot weapon and Guardians are BS3, even if it does have a blast template. Most likely they'll be given the Scatter Laser, because it's got slightly longer range, which is very important for the Guardians, given the short range of their catapults.

So let's just say you field a squad of 20 with a Scatter Laser heavy weapon platform, and a Warlock with a witchblade, shuriken pistol, and conceal. That costs approximately 247 points, I think, though some of my points costs might be wrong. Now, I don't know how much Guardsmen cost, but I'm under the impression that for 247 points you can get a whole lot of guardsmen squads and heavy weapons for them.

Okay, so with all those Guardians, you get 42 Shuriken Catapult shots a turn (one of the Weapons Platform crew is allowed to fire), and on average 3.5 Scatter Laser shots a turn, and two Shuriken Pistol shots a turn. If all the Guardians and the Warlock manage to get within range of the enemy and unload everything they've got, this is what happens in the average case.

42 shots yields 21 hits. 21 hits yield 14 wounds. Without cover, on average 14 Guardsmen will die from Shuriken Catapult fire.

3.5 Scatter Laser shots yield 1.75 hits. 1.75 hits yield, 1.46 wounds. 0.24 Guardsmen will save. So without cover 1.22 Guardsmen will die from Scatter Laser fire.

2 shots from a Shuriken Pistol yields 1.333 hits. 1.333 hits yields 0.889 wounds. So on average 0.889 Guardsmen will die from Shuriken Pistol fire without cover.

That means, if the Guardsmen aren't in cover, and the 23 man squad manages to get within 12" of a Guardsmen squad at full strength, on average the Guardians will kill 16.109. Given that a Guardsmen squad only goes up to 10, the Guardians just wiped out the entire squad, heavy weapons and all. Of course, they can only fire on one squad, so all the other squads of Guardsmen are still able to shoot at them. In addition, no matter how carefully manuevered they are, no footslogging Guardian squad is going to get within 12" of another squad without taking casualties. So the deadly mass of Shuriken Catapult fire will never be unleashed at full strength. Especially considering that with a Heavy Weapons Platform the Guardians aren't allowed to Fleet.

Now, if we go for a Wave Serpent, we can take 10 Guardians, no Weapons Platform, and we'll exclude the Warlock because destructor would be too hard to calculate. In the case of the Wave Serpent, we'll allow it to take all Shuriken Cannons, because their range won't be as much of a hinderence to it. Without Spirit Stones, and Star Engines, but with the Shuriken Cannon upgrade to the twin-linked Shuriken Catapults, this squad runs 210 points, and can cost more if the Wave Serpent is further upgraded, and can probably easily cost as much as the other squad, or maybe a little more. How much can Guardsmen buy for that many points?

Now, let's assume that the Wave Serpent has moved far enough that it can drop the Guardians within 12" of a Guardsmen squad, and fire on them itself. That's 20 Shuriken Catapult shots, and 6 Shuriken Cannon shots, 3 of which re-rolll to hit.

20 Shuriken Catapult shots yield 10 hits. 10 hits yield 6.667 wounds. So on average, without cover 6.667 Guardsmen die to Shuriken Catapult fire a turn.

3 Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannon Shots yield 2.25 hits. 2.25 hits yield 1.875 wounds. Without cover, on average, the twin-linked cannons kill 1.875 Guardsmen a turn.

3 Shuriken Cannon Shots yield 1.5 hits. 1.5 hits yield 1.25 wounds. Without cover, on average, the front mounted cannon kills 1.25 Guardsmen a turn.

So on average, after just disembarking the squad from the Wave Serpent, they'll kill 9.792 Guardsmen, if the Guardsmen aren't in cover. Again that's almost an entire squad. But no doubt there are still plenty of Guardsmen left to shoot at this 10 man squad and its Wave Serpent in the Guardsmen turn. Most likely enough fire power to devistate the Guardians.

So while a squad of Guardians can devistate a squad of Guardsmen, the Guardsmen end up winning, because in order for the Guardians to do just that, they'll either subject themselves to fire on their approach, or leave themselves wide open after their performance. And Close Combat won't really help the Guardian squad, as they're probably only be 1 Guardsmen left, and they should be able to easily kill him in Close Combat, thus causing it to end by the Guard Player's shooting phase.

tuebor
07-08-2006, 17:54
For 250 points you can get a platoon with 3 squads of Guardsmen with heavy bolters, and a platoon command squad.

Thus you have 31 lasguns, 9 heavy bolter shots, and 1 laspistol.

At 24 inches, the lasguns will kill 5.15 Guardians and the heavy bolters will kill another 3.75 for a total of 8.9. Obviously, the Guardians won't be able to take two turns of this.

At 12 inches the lasguns and laspistol will kill 10.56. The only way Guardsmen will ever be able to shoot at Guardians from 12 inches away is by moving, so we'll remove the heavy bolters from this equation.

Anyway, I'd put my money on the Guardsmen, simply because they have more squads than the Guardians, and always use the "retreat to a better position while the enemy is in CC" tactic that my Guardsmen love so much.

Inq. Veltane
07-08-2006, 18:08
Yeah, on an open table starting at 24" away from each other the Guardsmen will always win (assuming equal points). The Guardians have the ability to decimate the Guardsmen, but the ability is really mutual. Whoever gets to shoot first will win - and the Guardsmen have superior range so will almost always get first shot.

tuebor
07-08-2006, 19:58
I think the big advantage the Guardsmen have is that no matter how hot the Eldar player's dice are, he can only kill 1 squad per turn, so it will take at least 4 turns to kill all of the Guardsmen in the platoon I described.

Of course, Guardsmen and Guardians fill two entirely different roles in their respective armies. Guardsmen are the mainstay of your army in the IG, and Guardians are a supporting unit in Eldar. In some Eldar armies, anyway.

Still, Guardians aren't meant to take on enemy units by themselves. A Storm Guardian or just Guardian unit, when used in tandem with a unit of Banshees or Scorpions becomes much, much better. They can still do some damage, but the other unit is much more of a threat and will take the punishment.

holo
08-08-2006, 08:37
He meant by this a squad of IG vs a squad of Guardians. It's clearly that the guardians will win, they have platforms like starcannons and stuff, the guardsmen have what? a rocketlauncher ?

and this question appeared because he says that guardians aren't good in 400 point games

Outlaw289
08-08-2006, 08:40
He meant by this a squad of IG vs a squad of Guardians. It's clearly that the guardians will win, they have platforms like starcannons and stuff, the guardsmen have what? a rocketlauncher ?

and this question appeared because he says that guardians aren't good in 400 point games

Mortars, heavybolters, missile launchers, lascannons, and autocannons.

I think a single IG squad with a grenade launcher and heavybolter or autocannon would ruin a Guardian squad, if it had sufficient range to gun the Guardians with

tuebor
08-08-2006, 09:12
He meant by this a squad of IG vs a squad of Guardians. It's clearly that the guardians will win, they have platforms like starcannons and stuff, the guardsmen have what? a rocketlauncher ?

and this question appeared because he says that guardians aren't good in 400 point games

To be honest, a comparison of Guardians and IG on a squad by squad basis is kinda silly. A fully kitted out squad of IG (heavy bolter and grenade launcher) is 78 points, while simply 10 Guardians cost more than that.

I would certainly use Guardians in 400 point games. A couple of 10 elf squads to support a squad or two of aspect warriors would do nicely, I think. Unless you're playing on a completely open table the Guardians should be of some use.

Also, as for you saying that a Guardian squad would clearly win against an IG squad, I disagree. I know I said this comparison is silly, but I feel like being silly. True, the Guardians have starcannons, but the heavy bolter works just as well as a starcannon against Guardians, for a great deal less points. Frag grenades would also be useful against Guardians. Not only that, but if the Guardsmen were in cover they would be at a tremendous advantage. Sitting back and firing a platform wouldn't be a good idea, since lasguns and grenades have longer range than shuricats, and charging wouldn't be a great idea either since the Guardsmen would go first in the ensuing combat. The only thing you could hope for would be to kill enough Guardsmen with shuricat fire beforehand, and with anything less than 20 Guardians you probably won't do that, provided the Guardsmen are in 4+ cover. And 20 Guardians vs. 10 Guardsmen is apples and oranges, really.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
08-08-2006, 10:25
The guardsmen are just better from a tabletop point of view in a 1v1 sense, be it individually, squad vs squad (assuming equal points) or just equal points. Strategically I'd say the guardsmen are better too, being capable of anything really. The guardsmen can even have freebies like close order drill and iron discipline (well, 5 points an officer...) to make things even worse.

So how about the Eldar's new troops unit of choice, the Dire Avengers? I imagine a squad of them would just lose even harder against an equal points platoon of guardsmen really though.

I think equal points of guard infantry would beat any eldar infantry if they had clear lanes of fire, but even with a generous helping of terrain the Eldar are going to be outnumbered and outgunned, with the squad advantage and massed bayonet charge cleaning up the remnants.

It just goes to show how unreliable these sorts of 1v1 tests are, units are meant to work as part of a larger army in the end and that how you judge their worth. Although in the case of guardians I'm willing to say they suck.

Gargamel
08-08-2006, 13:11
if you compare the range of the weapons, you´ll see that 10 guardsmen with an HB, a grenade Launcher and iron dicipline (78 points) have 9 shoots to 24" and 3 shoots to 36". For 80 points you can take 10 Guardians with 20 shoots at 12" or les guardians with a heavy weapon (I don´t know the exact points) to get some shoots with more range. But then the squad is smaller and only one good shootingphase of the IG can let them run away. Victory guard. The 10 guardians can let the guard run away, but they have to get throug the imperial firestorm with some troops to bring up enough firepower. And this is very
hard against a HB, 8 lasguns and a grenadelauncher. victory guard, too.