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anarchistica
07-08-2006, 01:30
Last saturday i went to a clubnight of a local store for the first time and played a 1500 points battle (first battle in aaaages). The bloke i was playing against was English, though he's lived here for 5 years. His and he opponents are at least 15 years old. During the battle, i corrected him on various occassions and he told me he would need to have a word with some of his regular opponents. :evilgrin:

This got me thinking. Without exception, when playing, i'm always the one who has a better knowledge of the rules. It doesn't matter whether it's a 14 year old newbie or a 20 year old friend who nearly beat the Dutch Champion. And even i am struggling on occassion (though most of the times this is due to the "fair play" policy among regular opponents - we always bring max. models in base contact, etc.) and find myself thumbing through the big red book... and i was 2005's Warseer Rules Lawyer (a meaningless title, but still :p).

The new rulebook seems to be alot clearer though introduces new ambigous wording. The first book done for 7th edition (Dwarfs) also had a bunch of unclear wordings and vague rules. What if this trend continues? I manage to AB 2.2 files for WFB too, and i sometimes get the feeling GW only introduces complicated composition rules just to taunt me. Wouldn't it be nice if the rules were clearer and simpler? Isn't there a need for something comparable to Magic The Gathering's portal? (though of course this shouldn't lead to dumbifying like getting rid of interrupts)

If some people were to make a more simple ruleset, with a catchy name like WaRhAmM3r 4 No0bS (to appeal to the lost generation :D), would this be used? How well do the people you play against know the rules? And yourself?

EDIT: Also, what rules do you find annoying, confusing or you always find yourself looking up?

For me it's the Panic rules. The range, requirements and moment at which you take the test i sometimes forget or mix up.

DeathMasterSnikch
07-08-2006, 02:01
Usualy rules related to psychology. But theres other rules that i can't think of (most likely due to not being able to remember them) that I usualy have to look through the mighty book of rules.

Anarchistica, that link to the Flying Spaghetti Monster is honestly the greatest thing that happend today...I realy need to get out more...Didn't make me laugh as much as todays Mr Bean but it was better in it's own way.

Crazy Harborc
07-08-2006, 02:15
I started WHFB just before 4th Edition came out. I spend WAY too much time deciding which edition am I mis-remembering rules from now??

I started WAB when it was just Ancient Battles. We didn't know GW had anything to do with AB until the rulebook was delayed in shipping and then surprise it came to the local indie store titled warhammer Ancient Battles.

Now (like today in fact) oldtime regular opponents and I will have to stop to think about which system are we playing (today was Shield Wall).

I dislike the magic phase in WHFB. My main love (as a wargamer) is NOT the magic phase nor it's wizards and bound spells. With luck in a few more battles our little oldtimers group will go back to playing WHFB with spells and wizards. Until then.......Thankfully, there's WAB:D

Shaitan
07-08-2006, 02:26
This got me thinking. Without exception, when playing, i'm always the one who has a better knowledge of the rules. It doesn't matter whether it's a 14 year old newbie or a 20 year old friend who nearly beat the Dutch Champion. And even i am struggling on occassion (though most of the times this is due to the "fair play" policy among regular opponents - we always bring max. models in base contact, etc.) and find myself thumbing through the big red book...

That's about the same as I experience it in my gaming group. Everyone is always asking me what to do when they face a difficult situation. Most of the times I know (or think I know) what to do but sometimes the vague descriptions in the rulebook, or our "fair play" policy, makes it hard to decide what's best.

Most stuff I have to look up is about the psychology rules (ranges, US important or not?). Most debating or questioning is about charging/pursuing/fleeing/overrunning/redirecting. Thus, about the combat-related movement. I hope GW has made things clearer on this point in the 7th edition.

starlight
07-08-2006, 03:02
Ditto. I seem to have a good head for remembering the rules:).....if not the order they are applied.:(

DrCamf
07-08-2006, 07:13
I also experience that questions because of vague rule text pop up where I play and really hope that this is one of the areas that GW fix, but in the dark of the night where demons danse I know that it will not be so.

Baindread
07-08-2006, 09:56
The movement rules and charge rules always seems to start heated discussions in my gaming group.

Kyte
07-08-2006, 10:04
Also, what rules do you find annoying, confusing or you always find yourself looking up?
Miscast and misfire tables... the mayor differences between Fear and Terror, Ogre Hunter "Seak em' Boys" rule, etc.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Anarchistica, You're the one who invented ArmyBuilder, aren't you? Not a strange thing that you know the rules better than most people...

- Kyte

Galonthar
07-08-2006, 10:27
ow hell: rules... I think I only use half of them even at my best times...

especially
- formations / rotating and psychology
...
the things that are missing here are because I don`t even know they exist....:p

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-08-2006, 11:07
Well enough to argue most of them pretty successfully without having to look it up. Only thing I can never remember the exact details of are panic. I can never remember what is 4" and 6" and such.

Tili
07-08-2006, 11:21
Redirecting charges, flying failed charge (i know its 20" but other ppl dont), how much you can move backwards without turning (eg. reform move reform), and the usual 1mm short of charge range :p

Alathir
07-08-2006, 11:42
My main opponent is Tomb Kings...... and as anyone who knows about Tomb Kings will tell you..... they break almost every rule in the book.

So I dont need to worry too much haha.

Festus
07-08-2006, 11:46
Hi

I hope that I know my rules pretty well, generally. With WHFB, I know them decidedly better than any Red- or Blackshirt around and better than most players I encounter.

But I have to admit, I am in a very similar situation to Crazy Harboc's:
I started WHFB just before 4th Edition came out. I spend WAY too much time deciding which edition am I mis-remembering rules from now??

WHFB has proven to be a very stable core system, but the crux is in the detail changes: Lots of rules have been added only to be dropped afterwards. In soon 5 editions of the game, I have played so many different special rules, it is sometimes hard to keep track :)

A specialty of mine is the turn sequence. I usually need at least half a year until I can remember the most recent sequence. I have prepared big papers with it so that I do it right in the game proper...

Greetings
Festus

EvC
07-08-2006, 13:58
I'm pretty good with the rules, at the tournament I was at on the weekend I played one guy who was relatively new, and "helped" him out with lots of rules, for example that yes, you can cast magic while in close combat (Just not magic missiles!), and bolt throwers don't give an armour save. Apparently in the games he'd been playing before me, no-one else had bothered to correct him. Tut-tut... Still, there were areas where other players corrected me, sometimes rightly, sometimes very wrongly. A Dark Elf player told me that in fact flyers cannot fly over one unit to charge another, which I'm sure is a valid rule and a common tactic, but he was the one with the dragon so I didn't argue with him. But later on he told me that a Dragon could use his breath weapon in combat, which was a complete lie. He didn't kill any of my knights with it, however, and I repaid him by using Hand of Dust on a Necromancer, and killing his Dragon with it, while my Count slaughtered his general. That'll learn him ;)

But other rules that I'll commonly have to look up are panic distances, miscast tables and similar doojamies.

enyoss
07-08-2006, 18:15
Hi

WHFB has proven to be a very stable core system, but the crux is in the detail changes: Lots of rules have been added only to be dropped afterwards. In soon 5 editions of the game, I have played so many different special rules, it is sometimes hard to keep track :)



Agreed! When going from 5th to 6th it was skirmishers and the General's leadership, from 4th to 5th it was the Battlestandard and re-rolled psychology tests...

I know the rules pretty well and am probably the one who knows them best in my group. I know most of the Red Book back to front but, ironically, always struggle with Stupidity... I can just never remember what the idiots do!

As for the comment on Tomb Kings... I think their army book is the only one which should state that having a copy of Warhammer is not a prerequisite :) Might as well have called it 'Warhammer-Tomb Kings' instead of 'Warmhammer Armies TK'. Psychology, don't worry about that... range guessing?, that's what the magic phase is for... casts/miscasts, don't fret about that old albatross... march? what's a march, I only know a move... followed by another move :) Still though, their rules are unambiguous and pretty airtight and that's the way I like them!

cheers,

enyoss

Milgram
07-08-2006, 19:43
I often find myself even stumbling over mordheim rules. as well, I played chaos and lately khemri. now it's orcs. i tripped and felt from the shooting rules, I don't know which one of the psychology tests is 4''.

but when I see people at the gamers day (that's our local stores quarterly event, note the additional 's'), some of them don't even know, what roll to wound with S2 on S5 (yeah, it's not possible, but it goes on on the whole table).

Sasquatch
07-08-2006, 20:40
Hmm, my most comon reason for checking the BRB is for panic tests. What range, US etc.....

The other problem I have is mixing up WHFB rules with WH40K rules. I've played 40K for something like 15 years. Thankfully, I've forgotten most of the stuff from 2nd ed.:D But when I started WHFB, I was constantly mixing up the two systems and applying the "logic" from one to the other. (I use the term "logic", very loosely!) You should have seen my face when I found out you could get an armor save and a ward save against the same wound!:eek:

Crazy Harborc
08-08-2006, 01:22
Don't feel lonely on that armour AND ward save attempts for the same wound.

starlight
08-08-2006, 01:39
Actually I went the other way and was surprised that I didn't get my Inv after failing my Armour.:(

Memories.:(

laughingman
08-08-2006, 03:46
rules are here to play and agree with people, so i feel if you dont know the rule but have a mutual agreement it ends up working better.

starlight
08-08-2006, 03:52
1) Fun

2) Cool

3) Rules

In that order.:p

snurl
08-08-2006, 05:02
One of my regular opponents cant remember rules to save his life, so the rest of us keep looking things up and correcting him.
This has made the rest of us much better at knowing the system/rules.

Livington
08-08-2006, 07:21
if GW made all of their rules absolute and clear, then how would they be able to swindle us out of our money later on if they couldnt come out with an errata to fix these "missed" issues?

its all a game with them, (no pun intended) to get more money. why make it perfect when you can make it perfect later on.... at a price.

Keller
08-08-2006, 14:17
I too am the official rulebook for our games club. It doesn't really matter the system, how long its been since I played it last, or how many armies/factions I have of it; they always turn to me with rules queries. Maybe its because I have a very good memory and very logical thought process to work out any problems that might arise, maybe they just want to be able to blame someone else for any miss-quoted rules. Either way, my being present always speeds the games up quite a bit, and keeps them playing to the actual rules.

Not that I mind that much. I get tired when my turns are interupted time and time again by others asking questions, but atleast I can feel special about it. :)

Nadir
09-08-2006, 10:30
Same here. I think im seeing a trend here. A lot of people here claim to be the "rulebook" for their friends. And we all post here. The trend is: our friends, who doesnt have the same grasp of the rules as us, did not post.

Forums learns you a lot IMO. Also they keep you enticed for the hobby, peps you up to actually read the BRB now and then. Not that im doing it anymore but a while ago I read it a lot, along with my then new Woodiebook.

Now im just waiting for the next edition. Actually, I can hardly wait >P

grg3d
09-08-2006, 11:47
I Know the rules just fine ....Gw just keeps changing them :p

Then its " well that rule is from 2nd addition or third"

Played so long the rules just blurr together from edition to edition or the suttle changes that look like type O's....Well it could happen

Or rules you just didn't read the whole part like "when you attempet to dispell a spell and role 2 Ones its an auto failure to dispell or 2 six's its an auto dispell even if 12 is lower than the casting value total of the spell....

Festus
09-08-2006, 12:36
Hi

... some of them don't even know, what roll to wound with S2 on S5 (yeah, it's not possible, but it goes on on the whole table).
It is possible: a 6 on a D& suffices :D

;)

Greetings
Festus

pox
09-08-2006, 17:39
same here, as the living rulebook. I'll tell peeps I've never PLAYED the game there playing, (flames of war, for example) and still get questions. I usually run the tourneys at my shop, and keep the red book and errata at hands reach.

the only time I have problems is when someone has been doing something beardy/abusive/wrong for so long, when you point it out, or get the article that clarifies it, they freak out. this has happened at 2 tourneys, one with an empire player using his cannon as a sniper rifle, and the other with panic tests, and destroying a unit. even though they clarified both issues, you really have to read the article and think about it before it makes sense.

Crazy Harborc
09-08-2006, 18:03
It does bug me and or make me wonder why??. People who complain about a lame rule or badly worded rule/whatever, bitch for years. If someone suggests changing the rule/bad wording/etc........Then the complainer(s) have a fit and rAnt about "no way we aren't GW, I didn't pay GW all that money to (re)write the rules' Translation I spent too much money to redo it myself and admit I can do it (for free) as good as GW does for all that money.

I'm ALL in favor of written down house rules and or rewording/rewrites. If it's broke...I will at least "try" to fix it.;)

EvC
09-08-2006, 18:10
Speaking of tournament players, I think an opponent in my last game may have genuinely cheated me... to the rules forum, to find the truth!

Sasquatch
09-08-2006, 21:26
Speaking of tournament players, I think an opponent in my last game may have genuinely cheated me... to the rules forum, to find the truth!

I've stopped playing the mini tournaments at the local game store for that same reason. Most of the players are kids who barely understand their own army books, let alone the general rules.

Some of it is pretty flagrant. My girlfriend was totally shafted once and some kid who was making up rules as he went along. She was to shy to ask, got her army trod into the dirt and was turned off gaming for months.

Similar things have happened to me. Kids who show up without lists, or illegal lists. To many points in items, lord level characters under 2K, non-wizards with arcane items. I had one guy buy a magic standard that increased his charge range and stick it in the middle of the battlefield. It wasn't in a regiment, there wasn't even a model actually holding it, it was just a standard in the middle of the battlefield!:wtf:

EvC
10-08-2006, 00:00
Most of the time if someone cheats against me, it's because they're losing or having unbelievably bad luck (Like in the game I referred to), so I'll overlook it, and don't let it ruin the overall experience for me. Mind you, if I fought an opponent who cheated as badly as this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44044) at a tournament, it'd probably put me off completely...