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Dakkagor
08-08-2006, 13:33
This has become something of a personal crusade, so bear with me.

As you guys may or may not know, 40k has a wikipedia entry, a pretty big one (and on the whole, its very nice and accurate). When the wiki was young, I spent a few nights in a row filling the ork section. The section was later edited, sorted and generally tinkered with, but the vast majority of the stuff I dropped in there is still there.

Now, the technology section has become a bugbear of sorts. Someone has insisted on maintaining a section on Anzions theorem of kinetic resonance (or whatever the zog its called) and despite my best efforts, this section has been zealously guarded by someone called Pak21. (what kind of name is that?? I digress) so the wikipedia has a section explaining how ork technology works with the "fairy dust" principle.

I cannot let this stand!! As such, I am calling on you, gentle forumites, to aid me in my quest. Its simple, this maniac demands empirical references. I say lets give him just that! What we need are refrences in the fluff to ork weapons working without this psychic theory. So we need NON ORKS using ORK TECHNOLOGY. Simple! Everyone post the example you can think off, then I can finally put this to rest. I'll list the results at the bottom of this page with the names of contributors.

The first one that comes to mind is the Armageddon ork hunters, who use shootas, sluggas and choppas as well as orks, but without the ridiculous theory (Chapter Approved Annual 2003, pgs 20-21)

lord_blackfang
08-08-2006, 14:18
Is this the paragraph you're talking about?


An interesting aspect of Ork technology is that, from an Imperial scientific perspective, their weapons do not work, or by all means shouldn't. Orks are known to be a strongly psychic race, and their beliefs affect the Warp just as those of any other race. However, for Orks, it is slightly different, and their belief actually manifests on the battlefield: if they believe it works, it does work, or so the theory created by Imperial Techpriests runs. An example is 'shootas' (the orkish term for assault rifles that hit as hard as an Astartes boltgun): they are crudely mass produced to lax standards, poorly maintained and heavily abused by their ork owners. Compared to the imperial lasgun they are crude and primitive to the extreme. This kind of construction "should" not work on firing, but in the hands of an Ork, it does. However, this could as easily be down to Imperial soldiers unfamiliarity with the weapon, the imperiums poor understanding of basic engineering and scientific principles, or that the items they have gathered to study where discared on the battlefield after being broken as to any theory of kinetic psychic manipulation. Another example is red paint: a Mekboy may build two almost identical warbuggies (though mekboyz never build identical buggies; every vehicle is always unique), except that one is painted red and the other yellow. The Orkish belief that "da red wunz go fasta" then manifests itself, and the red buggy will actually move faster; this is catered for in the game rules by allowing red Orkish vehicles to obtain a small speed increase.


Seems perfectly fine to me.

Griffin
08-08-2006, 14:23
Seems cool to me too, granted I'm no Ork fluff expert.

Dakkagor
08-08-2006, 14:27
It took me weeks to get him to accept that change. . .

I hate that bloody theory.

Wraithbored
08-08-2006, 14:39
What about Gorkamorka? There are humans there using Ork tech.

Khaine's Messenger
08-08-2006, 16:12
So we need NON ORKS using ORK TECHNOLOGY.

Off the top of my head? The only major instances seem to occur when Orks are around, and there's no reason Orks should be able to wish their weapons to not work in others' hands. But the several prominent cases are, oh, "Xenocide" (found in one of the recent anthologies...Bringers of Death? I don't have my copy on me), the Armageddon Ork Hunters (duh!), and an army of the Death Korps. of Krieg that ran out of ammo and got uber-pious-desperate in a siege on an Ork-held citadel (it should be noted that, by the end, they'd suffered a 100% mortality rate--ah, the Death Korps....). That last one should be buried in the Illustrious Regiments of the Guard articles somewhere around the same time as the Armageddon Steel Legion got its article circa ArmIII, I'm pretty sure.


I can finally put this to rest.

Good luck with that. :angel:

Damien 1427
08-08-2006, 16:18
Diggas, for one. And Grots, arguably, as they're too weedy. And of course, Armageddon Ork Hunters.

Just because it's in a Codex doesn't mean it's not a load of ********. I mean, it's a Tech Priest for Gorks sake. Hardly the authority on anything.

Lord Zarkov
08-08-2006, 16:56
The armogeddon ork hunters units used shootas which made them BS2
Kroot could use them and remain BS3; but they are rumoured to have ork DNA

johhny-turbo
08-08-2006, 17:18
In the Ciaphias Cain novel Death or Glory he and Jurgen pilot an Ork buggy. Though it was an uncomfortable ride as Orks apparntly consider suspension for wusses.

Khaine's Messenger
08-08-2006, 17:21
In the Ciaphias Cain novel Death or Glory he and Jurgen pilot an Ork buggy. Though it was an uncomfortable ride as Orks apparntly consider suspension for wusses.

Oop! And Gaunt and Rawne run around in an ork vehicle in Ghostmaker, as well. Although the weapon on the back seizes up pretty quick.

Anyway, most people aren't going to be using Ork devices very far away from Orks, because most of them are considered unholy or just plain rubbish (not to mention built to Ork scale ;) ).

Zzarchov
08-08-2006, 17:30
Kroot use Ork weapons, even ones who do not take Ork DNA as their trait.

Darthvegeta800
08-08-2006, 18:50
I read this too in the fluff once. But i always found the 'We imagine it and it happens' thing weird. I prefer to see them as scavengers using sturdy but subtech, make-do equipment. They're galactic plunderers and savage warriors to me, using whatever works and heads their way.
And superstitious on top... and funny :D

Overlord Krycis
08-08-2006, 18:51
I thought all Kroot have at least SOME orkoid DNA. Wasn't that how they wound up with space-faring tech?

Simsandwich
08-08-2006, 19:16
Not ALL Kroot, only the ones that ate Orks.

I don't believe in the "fairy dust" Principle.
All Orks eminate an extremely small psychic field, thus when there is lots of them marching to War, that field gets bigger and bigger, thus enabling them to pull of subconscious psychic feats.
ie: Firing a Shoota that wouldn't work.
This also explains why Weirdboyz 'Eads "pop" when the boyz get all riled up, as an angry Ork gives off a stronger psychic field.

Skrittiblak
08-08-2006, 19:31
``Hehe. Nurglitch is right. Thats like "how to kill your own argument 101". That said, I like the fairy-dust idea to some extent.

How else can you justify that the standard weapon of the Orks is more powerful than the standard weapon of the Imperial Guard. Surely human tech would eclipse ork tech.

Mechanicus
08-08-2006, 20:42
How else can you justify that the standard weapon of the Orks is more powerful than the standard weapon of the Imperial Guard. Surely human tech would eclipse ork tech.
The brain boyz coding the knowledge of constructing effective weapons into their DNA, perhaps? That's the line from Xenology, on the second double page after the Ork Autopsy, combined with the second edition Ork Codex.

Simsandwich
08-08-2006, 21:17
Yeah, but if Marine's can't use them...

Simsandwich
08-08-2006, 21:29
Its pretty simple.
Pull Trigger To Shoot.
Ok, Im pretty sure a Chaos Space Marine could be tolerant of their manufacture.

Dakkagor
09-08-2006, 00:15
Its worth remembering that most chaos marines spent centuries killing orks and probably developing a proper hatred of them. After all, how many Luna wolves died on Ullanor, despite its success? I really can't see chaos marines using ork weapons, for many of the same reasons as marines.

So, a ciaphas cain novels (yay!), Ghostmaker, gorkamorka (DUH, why didn't I think of that) Kroot (who all have ork dna encoding, but only some. Otherwise, they would be green), that Death korps story (anyone have an issue number for it? I remember it too)

I'm tempted to say some of the Warhammer monthly comics (The warped visions one when Ulli and Marquand wind up in a penal unit and use captured ork weapons, including "Da kablamma!") But I'm not sure how "cannon" that is.

Khaine's Messenger
09-08-2006, 01:32
Ah, I found "Xenocide"...it is in Bringers of Death, p101. The subjects on a world whose most common firearms are black powder "archaeotech" manage to figure out how to work Ork guns...

Also of interest regarding theories of the Ork mentioned in "Xenocide" is Harkness's Theory of Orkoid Relativism, or "the motivation and tactical sophistication exhibited by this xeno-type may be influenced by the level of resistance offered by their target species." (p211) Amusingly, Harkness was declared excommunicate and his writings deemed heretical. Perhaps for stating the obvious one too many times? ;)

ExxonValdez
09-08-2006, 04:36
Maybe BS 2 represents the Shootas and Sluggas actually working. Maybe Orks are very accurate but their weapons don't work very well. So in reality they hit almost all the time, same as a model with BS 5 except their Rokkits are duds. Then when an Ork army loots Imperial Vehicles it tinkers with the weapons making them "Orky" thus not working very well.

Outlaw289
09-08-2006, 07:21
Or maybe BS2 just represents the Ork aversion to aiming carefully.

I view it as both.

I see Orks just aiming in the general direction of an enemy and letting loose. I imagine the Ork Shoota has all the accuracy of a PPsH, and that sheer rate of fire is what yields hits.

Overlord Krycis
09-08-2006, 19:43
I've got to agree with Nurglitch here...there are already extra rules that deal with the reliability of weapons in the Ork List (the afore mentioned "Gets Hot!" and "Looted Weapons") as there are for the game as a whole.

Ballistic Skill, by defination would be how accurate the firer of the weapon is.
Or in the Ork's case...how over-eager they are to make loud noises with large caliber guns...

DaGork
10-08-2006, 02:01
Bah, Anzion's Theory of Such and Such is completely exagerated in my opinion.

I'm willing to accept that the Ork's natural psycic ability allows them to slightly bend the rules of space and time, but to have all Ork tech hinge on this one principle is going too far.

Plus, seeing as the background for The War in The Heavens states that Orks were specificly designed to take on Necrons, and that the Necrons have the capability to create "super" real-space, where all warp based abilities can not be used, it wouldn't be practicle for the Old Ones to have designed Orks that way.

I think Anzion purposefully exagerated his theory in order to give the Imperials a faint hope that they could beat the entire Orkoid race by means of some sort of ant-psyker weapon.

On a note note more related to the thread's topic, The Ciaphus Cain book Death or Glory has more than just humans using Orky vehicles. There are many occaisions where they use ork weapons as well. In fact, there is an entire civillian refugee force that uses ork weaponry for a prolonged period of time.

New Cult King
10-08-2006, 02:48
Maybe BS 2 represents the Shootas and Sluggas actually working. Maybe Orks are very accurate but their weapons don't work very well. So in reality they hit almost all the time, same as a model with BS 5 except their Rokkits are duds. Then when an Ork army loots Imperial Vehicles it tinkers with the weapons making them "Orky" thus not working very well.

That's a very, very good theory to my mind. I like it! Based on what we know about Orks and their love of loud noise and close combat, it's prbably not very accurate, but I like it nonetheless :D

cailus
10-08-2006, 03:43
I also remember a story in White Dwarf or the Space Wolves codex (can't remember which) in which a Space Wolves Marine utilises an Ork turret gun to wreak havoc on Ork defenders. He was disgusted by using such vile xenos technology but it was the only way of preventing his comrades from getting killed.

I'd say Orks have a better understanding of technology than the superstitious Imperium.

Hopefully the 4th edition codex will have Anzio purged as a worthless heretic.

Rodman49
10-08-2006, 08:27
I was under the impression that Orks and most of the other Slaan made soldier races (like the Jokero) had a significant amount of their technological skills implanted in their DNA (think Go'auld children in Stargate), maybe this would account for their simple but effective construction.

WarbossKurgan
10-08-2006, 11:53
The fact is that it's pretty much accepted now that Ork weapons work because the Orks believe they work. From "Red Onez go fasta" to Gargants that can actually move.

To my mind it fits the rest of the "background psychic field" wot-nots perfectly!

As for non-orks using Ork technology - simple! The more Orks there are in an area, the stronger the "background psychic field" becomes (it's what causes a Waaagh! to form after all). This increases the range that the field covers and so enables non-orks a good distance away from the Boyz to pick up and use Orky gear.

Armageddon is a good example, the entire planet is so steeped in Orky Waaagh! power that even a Human can get a shoota to work.

Along the same lines the Orks use this collective Waaagh! energy to change the flow of the currents in warp-space an thus "steer" a massive fleet of Space Hulks, Rokks and Krusers over huge distances on a "bow-wave" of excitable green power!

Your not going to have any luck with this Dakkagor: Sorry mate!

Skrittiblak
10-08-2006, 12:36
The other thing to keep in mind (and this has been in the fluff from day 1) is that orks are a genetically engineered warrior race.

As such they have certain 'inborn' knowledge that is part of their genetic makeup. Just as human beings are born with the innate capacity to learn language, to cry when we need something, to walk etc... Just as birds (even that grow up on their own) fly south in the winter. So to do Orks have certain 'instincts'. Their instincts are just more honed for a futuristic combat.

From a young age all orks have the instinctive know-how of how to fire automatic weapons. How to make potent melee weapons. And how to field strip and maintain guns. This isn't because they are technically adept or because they have studied.

This is because it is racial knowledge coded into their DNA. Ork weapons work effectively even in the hands of non-orks. Otherwise they wouldn't have functioned very well for the Old Ones as a military 'grunt' race.

RampagingRavener
10-08-2006, 12:45
On the case of "They just work" vs "They actually work", I don't see why it can't be both. Ork guns are built/looted/whatever and work normally-an Ork can use them, and a non-Ork can use them. But, the psychic-feild thing that Orks create means that if a weapon breaks, or jams, or whatever, it keeps on firing because the Ork belives it will, and therefore uses its innate psychic ability subconsciously to keep the gun working. So, if the Ork gets killed and someone else picks the gun up, because they don't have that same psychic ability, the gun rejams, or whatever.

All in all, I don't see the idea of Orks being able to keep their guns working when they should have broken/jammed/exploded any more fantastical than using Psychic powers to shoot big blasts of energy at people, or to see into the future, or any other of the Psychic powers displayed in the game/fluff. I rather like the idea WarbossKurgan puts forward as well, which sounds like it could work.

Dakkagor
10-08-2006, 18:06
*Gets out his debatin' pklaw to punch some big holes in kurgans argument*


As for non-orks using Ork technology - simple! The more Orks there are in an area, the stronger the "background psychic field" becomes (it's what causes a Waaagh! to form after all). This increases the range that the field covers and so enables non-orks a good distance away from the Boyz to pick up and use Orky gear.

Psychic powers, by there very nature, are directed uses of energy, exerted by will, unconcious or not. The ork holds his shoota, knows it will work, and the theory does the rest. Having some background ambience would not be focused enough to ensure that the guardsmen who picks up a shoota would find it works. Yet it does. . .indicating that the background psychic field is being controlled by some vast, super intelligent force to make sure every piece of ork tech works perfectly every time (which it doesn't, but I'll continue that later) or that ork tech doesn't need a stupid crutch to keep it working.


Gargants that can actually move.

Gargrants walk like dragline walkers. Seriously, just cover a dragline walker in gunz, armour and gubbinz and you have a gargant, and a much more believable one than an imperial titan that should liqueify the ground everytime it moves.

Now, this ork psychic power runs of ork psychology. It must, because thats where all psychic powers draw from, imperial, chaos, eldar or ork. In the psychology of an ork, he is a big green, near invincible killing machine capable of killing anything with his choppa and some slugga fire. Yet he isn't. If the theory kept gunz working, why do zapp gunz overheat, mega blastas cook off, kustom sluggas melt, and looted weapons kill their users? Surely the psychic field would keep everything working fine, because orks think they have the best gunz, the best armour, and are the best at killin' in general.

Yet they aren't. gunz explode. Boyz die, and choppas can't kill fexs. That means the psychic field is either A: very selective (how the heck does it choose what works and what doesn't??) B: Non existant.

Nurglitch
10-08-2006, 18:07
The fact is that it's pretty much accepted now that Ork weapons work because the Orks believe they work. No, it's not "pretty much accepted". There's the people that, for whatever reason, think that Anzion's theory is the truth of the matter, and there's the people that notice he's a raving idiot tech-priest that wouldn't know ribonucleic acid from his own mechanical rectum. I've pointed this out in previous threads (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20268).

Off-topic:

I absolutely loathe the fact that people take that bit of fluff for fact, as if it were from an omniscient perspective rather than a very limited second-hand derivative perspective. It's a better example of the poor state of Imperial science rather than anything relevant to the nature of Orks and their technologies. It bothers me even more when people ignore other fluff in the same book concerning the court-marshal of a Lieutenant in the Imperial Guard. That fluff suggests that Imperial understanding of Orks is often disastrously wrong.

Furthermore I think that GW made a serious mistake when they started trying to write background material from the perspective of the inhabitants of Warhammer 40k. The fan-boys just don't seem to be able to handle the concept of limited perspective. As a result they get all sorts of weird ideas about the facts of the 41st millennium. Now weird ideas can be good, but for some reason the result around here is almost always "fan-fiction", a by-word for poorly written garbage set in a grotesque caricature of the original ficton.

I don't think I'd mind it so much if people prefaced their stupidity with "I think..." or "I like to imagine...". Then it would be clear that it was one's own interpretation and thus might not actually reflect what the background materials describe. Likewise the obnoxious attempts to establish a consensus where none exists, and the attempts to cite that consensus to support stupid interpretations of the background, are really grinding me down. You want your magical fairy-dust Orks? You can have them. Just don't imagine that your interpretation is supported by the background materials, any kind of consensus, or even good taste. That is, unless you have a sound aesthetic argument to back it up, rather than some misguided notion that it's worthwhile just because.

Seriously, who gives a damn if you like Anzion's worthless ravings? There are grown men that like dressing up as Sailor Moon. The fact that they like it doesn't make it any less tasteless, unsightly, and pathetic. Don't be the 40k fluff-equivalent of these people. If you're going to interpret the background material, at least do it well.

/bile

SwordJon
10-08-2006, 19:58
There is no way that the technology they used to drop asteroids onto Armageddon worked jus' cuz we fink it do. There's got to be some sound engineering principles behind all of their technology, even if they're crude, and even if the orks aren't aware of them.:D

Morfans
11-08-2006, 03:25
There is no way that the technology they used to drop asteroids onto Armageddon worked jus' cuz we fink it do.

Hear hear.

Anzion's principle is just an attempt to inject a bit of levity into the Ork fluff. The race has mutated from a big, dumb, jokey race into a savage, kick-ass one.

WarbossKurgan
11-08-2006, 08:54
If the theory kept gunz working, why do zapp gunz overheat, mega blastas cook off, kustom sluggas melt, and looted weapons kill their users? Surely the psychic field would keep everything working fine, because orks think they have the best gunz, the best armour, and are the best at killin' in general.

:mad: I really never thought of it like that!
Okay you got me. :)

The Power of the Waaagh still works for "bow-wave" warpspace navigation though, right? :(

Simsandwich
11-08-2006, 09:13
We didn't say it kept everything working Smoothly.
It kept everything Working.

Simsandwich
11-08-2006, 21:42
Working means it does its job.

Say you got a banger of a car, and it "went" but there were sharp springs popping out in the seats so it hurted your ****. and the suspension was really bad and the ride was bumpy, but it still went.

Now make it spick and span with plush leather seats and the like, no problems.
Thats Working smoothly.

Easy E
12-08-2006, 03:02
I like to think that Orks have a good "understanding" of technology in the sense that a craftsman has a good understanding of his trade. The craftsman may not know the scientific principles behind why you can do this or that, but he knows if he does "THIS" a certain way, he can be pretty certain "THAT" will be the result.

DaGork
12-08-2006, 07:19
Well said, Nurglitch!

You know, in my earlier days of loving Orks, I fully believed Anzion's theory without question. After hearing (or reading as is the case with forums) a few of these debates, yours being chief among them, I changed camps.

Of course, I do like the idea of orks being able to 'grease the wheels' of thier machines simply by what they believe. Its a sort of throw back to the Ork's roots as a comical race.

In cartoons, there is sometimes a character that can defy the laws of phisics simply because they don't know what they're doing is impossible (and because it is a cartoon). Orks are a bit like that, although in a much less obvious and much more dark, bloody, and savage way.

DaGork
13-08-2006, 05:45
Yeah, when Orks are on the warpath, and you're in the way, its not very funny.

In my opinion, you can really only see Orks as funny when your looking at in in the 3rd person.

For example, a mob of Orks busts into your house while you're in it. The normal orky things follow, such as looting killing and eating whatever they feel like. That's not so funny.

But look at that in the 3rd person, a bunch of Orks bust into a house, start breaking the good china and eating Gran Gran's cooking, and than Gran Gran herself. That has a ring humor to it. Dark humor, but humor none the less.

DaGork
13-08-2006, 20:51
Perhaps 3rd person wasn't the best way to describe it.

What I meant was that its not funny when your on the recieving end of Ork brutality, but it can be funny if your watching from a perspective in which you can't actually interact with the things your seeing and they can't interact with you.

Like watching something on television. It may be entertaining, but you would change your mind quickly if you ended up in the same situation those charecters in your TV set were also in.

WarbossKurgan
14-08-2006, 11:54
I think you're confusing the 3rd person with the 1st person.


Perhaps 3rd person wasn't the best way to describe it.

What I meant was that its not funny when your on the recieving end of Ork brutality, but it can be funny if your watching from a perspective in which you can't actually interact with the things your seeing and they can't interact with you.

Like watching something on television. It may be entertaining, but you would change your mind quickly if you ended up in the same situation those charecters in your TV set were also in.
I think 3rd person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_person) is exactly what DaGork meant!

1st Person - the writer refering to themself: "I saw the Orks attack, I was quite scared"
2nd Person - the writer refering to the listener "That Ork hit you very hard, that must have hurt!"
3rd Person - the writer refers to neither the listener or themself "The Ork hit him very hard - it was so funny!!"
:D

Back on topic:

Having thought about this for most of the weekend (Yeah, thanks!) I was all ready to come back with a counter argument. But after reading through the GorkerMorker books I thought: Zogg-it! It's so much cooler if Ork gear works because it's made by creatures that have instinctive skills in projectile weapon and force-field technologies and a taste for violence and loud noises.!

Especially if they don't know why things work -they just know that they do!

Lockjaw
14-08-2006, 15:16
However, this could as easily be down to Imperial soldiers unfamiliarity with the weapon, the imperiums poor understanding of basic engineering and scientific principles, or that the items they have gathered to study where discared on the battlefield after being broken as to any theory of kinetic psychic manipulation.

this is more likely, it's a techpreist who said ork weapons work because the orks beleive they do, these are the same people who beleive spirits run machines and they have to pray to a machine god to get things to work

WarbossKurgan
15-08-2006, 11:02
this is more likely, it's a techpreist who said ork weapons work because the orks beleive they do, these are the same people who beleive spirits run machines and they have to pray to a machine god to get things to work

That's a very good point - the Imperials are projecting their belief systems onto the Orks! Or at least trying to understand something that is beyond their understanding of how the universe works!

"The earth is flat because I'd fall off otherwise!"

(Though what they call a Machine Spirit, we would call a computer system!)

Grot
16-08-2006, 06:25
I strongly agree to the ork's techno-idiot-savant theory [and genetic coding] over the magic powers theory, and will try to support your cause.

The diggas and ork hunters are your two best examples, having both official fluff and rules for them.

Especially the human 'diggas'. Basically, they would dig tunnels, find rare and complex devices, and sell them to the orks in exchange for [in their opinions] more impressive 'orky' technology [armour, guns, AND vehicles, all of which the diggas could use]. However, the ork meks knew that this was a very good deal, and put up with the diggas just for the technology they could bring. The rules also noted that if the digga tried to figure it out instead of selling it, he could [and it might turn out to be worthless, or it could accidentally melt him, or turn out to be a hand-held laser cannon or holographic image generator], anyway, if he did figure it out, the item is not allowed to be given to another member of your warband [like the leader, who avoided possible melting by giving to someone else to figure out] because only the original owner knows how it works. [A lot like ork technology, in the case of the meks.]

Given that Gorkamorka takes place over a huge desert, and that the diggas could fight other diggas with their weapons, the magic powers theory becomes unlikely, because there would be too few orks spread out over too great a distance for the technology to work off of radiating ork psychic powers.

It's also noted that grots only get grot blasters because they're generally poor and any given ork mek would not normally waste his time giving his best works of art to a "weak, weedy git". Assuming that the grot could even carry it. Because grot psykers in 40k are offically unheard of, one can assume that their 'psychic beacon' level is lower, but their [cheap] guns still work.

I don't recall then name of the book, but that novel about Ragnar Blackmane when he was young, it mentions his squad stealing an ork buggy, and driving it around, and it's easy to figure out because it's "Child-like in its simplicity. Granted, a huge, horribly misshapen ogre of a child..." That's quoted from memory, though. As well, he runs into a nurgle-infested hive fleet, so it's not necessarily cannon, although it is a printed example.

As far as speculation goes, the best argument is that someone who prays to a machine deity for his pistol to magically work is not someone you want to ask when it comes to actually figuring out how something works. In the fluff, the people on the forge-worlds who build the weapons have no idea how or why they work, they've just copied the design of one that does, and have taught their successors how to copy the design too. [Which is why master crafting is rare, because you have to find someone who could improve the design, not just copy it.]

Anyway. As for the orks themselves, I rather like your suggestings [that wikipedia entry is actually very well done, good job] that any recovered ork technology is generally the discarded, broken down or exploded things the orks leave behind, and things like a mek's force field generator are so esoteric that only the guy who made them knows just what to do. [The orks don't write manuals, and only a mek would bother with such complex devices. Imagine a mek explaining his new device to a prospective buyer:]

Mek: "You have to push this, twist that, wait for the light, flip that and that, wind this, push that, twist that the other way... and then when it heats up, hit this big one, one second after it makes a 'ding' sound - any longer and it'll explo-... Ow."
The ork: "Well... what else have you got?"
The mek: "I got this supa big shoota. Point this end at the enemy, and hold this trigger down until the bullets run out."
The ork: "I'll take that one."

The reason the ork hunters and everyone like that can use ork technology, in my mind, is because they kill the user and take it. They take the gun or whatever while it still works, while it's still loaded, and before the ork uses it as a club one too many times, breaks it, and throws it at an enemy solider annoyed while drawing his knife. It still works because they took the guns out of the ork's fingers before misuse, VERY rough treatment or weathering could break them. [In the ork codex, there's a story where an ork nob throws his slugga at a space marine dreadnought, because it ran out of ammunition. Imagine finding that gun three weeks after the battle, and after several rainstorms / whatever. Pray all you want, it would certainly not work anymore.]

Keeping in mind that orks have a near infinite [although limited] income, and their technology is not holy and worshiped [as the imperium] they would not bring a one toof slugga to a mek for a ten toof repair job. They would throw the broken slugga over one shoulder and buy a new one toof gun.

Because while an ork would say "It's broken, time to buy a new one", an imperial man would say "It's not working, we must bring it to the techpriest so he can sprinkle it with holy water, we'll then light some incense and pray to the machine god to sooth the obviously upset machine spirit inside this ancient and holy device."

As for the red ones go faster thing. I've always firmly believed that if the owner can afford the extra paint job, he can also afford to have the mek tinker with the engine, use a new 'special' type of improved fuel, build the vehicle more carefully and using better materials, and all the little things that would add up to that burst of speed.

There's no magic powers here. If you can't afford a bucket of red paint and a brush, you probably can't afford a top of the line buggy. If your gun doesn't work, it's not worth anything, don't keep it, throw it away and buy a new one.

If someone finds the broken gun you threw away and intends to use it, well, that's up to them.

[Edit - expanded digga section.]

Zzarchov
19-08-2006, 07:55
Im curious why you think genetically encoded knowledge is ridiculous considering it occurs on earth in a more limited form quite frequently, indeed it is the same thing as having an innate technological aptitude, merely more refined.

Anything you can progam into your brain through outside stimuli (ie, living and learning) can be programmed into your brain in a fetal stage much easier. There is nothing magical about memories or knowledge, they are merely chemicals and/or charges (Depending on the theory) stored in fatty tissue. If orks are genetically engineered, it is no stretch to believe their designers easily incorporated these patterns into the ork DNA.

Warwolt the skaven
16-07-2007, 20:00
Yeah, and we all know the Orks are made to fight. And fight agains the necrons are their original purpouse.

jowiczad
16-07-2007, 20:42
Umm, first of all, woo first post ever. :)

Anyway, in regards to non orks using ork tech, I believe that Commisar Yarrick uses a powerklaw taken from the ork that took his hand.

Hope that a) I'm right
b) That helps

Gdolkin
16-07-2007, 23:36
Welcome, jowzicad, good thread to join in on.
I'm for Orks dat was made to fight and win, balls to Anzion.

Adra
17-07-2007, 11:58
I dont like this idea that Orks understand technology. they dont, they just know how to make it, not really how it works or why it works. The Old Ones made them be able to make tech a genetic trait but they dont understand the science behind it, they just do it.

Remember that crazy race of space apes that live in trees but can make amazing mini-weapons? same thing..they just do it.

I dont mind the magic theory but i dont think it is as powerful as some make out. i think, at a pinch, an ork gun may be about to jam...maybe...maybe the orks belife in it makes it keep firing dispire the fact its falling apart. i dont belive that its the massive wall of enegry powering all ork machines for miles around. i think its done on an ork by ork basis and just gives a small edge to using the gun or truck. Makes sense to have that as a small genetic trait as orks are likely to hit things with their guns and have them keep working a bit longer saves alot of effort.