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NakedFisherman
27-07-2006, 21:22
The charging unit can decide to stop or to continue... if a fanatic is left in-between the charging unit and their target. Otherwise the unit must complete its charge.
I don't see the problem... why are the rules for fanatics so "terrible"? Just curious...

Have you ever seen the Night Goblin Wheel of Doom (tm)? :D

UltimateNagash
30-07-2006, 14:51
Have you ever seen the Night Goblin Wheel of Doom (tm)? :D
No, what is one (unless its a Fanatic hopping from one unit to another, killing everything)?

NakedFisherman
30-07-2006, 23:31
No, what is one (unless its a Fanatic hopping from one unit to another, killing everything)?

One long rank of Night Goblins facing a short board edge. They wheel about 2" and the last Night Goblin swings about 24" into the opponent's deployment zone, releasing Fanatics on the first turn. :wtf: :cheese:

Milgram
31-07-2006, 06:59
uhm... I definitely will use this in my next game... just for fun - and to look at the faces of my friends. :)

(and I tought the wolfrider bridge was bad)

p1nCHA
31-07-2006, 11:45
One long rank of Night Goblins facing a short board edge. They wheel about 2" and the last Night Goblin swings about 24" into the opponent's deployment zone, releasing Fanatics on the first turn. :wtf: :cheese:

Another question... "You do not have to move the full distance allowed, or even at all if you prefer, but you cannot move further than your normal Move rate unless charging, marching, pursuing or fleeing...", " When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model. Once the wheel is complete, you may use any movement that the unit has remaining."
These rules would include the swinging 'last night goblin' (the outside model) making a whopping 24" move, thus making the "Night Goblin Wheel of Doom" a mere house-rule on wheeling?

Milgram
31-07-2006, 16:51
the outside model is the outside model in the front rank, not the one at the end. if it would be like that, you could merely turn a 9+ bretonian unit.

you can be even more beardy if you go against a frenzy heavy army: set them up with only a standard bearer in the front rank... and give them the stubborn standard. then the enemy will not only have the fanatics in his row, he also has to charge this stubborn night goblin unit that uses ld9 from the general - the standard bearer is not attackable as he's approx. 10-15 inches away.

make it 60-80 goblins and the 3-4 frenzy units will have a lot of time bashing themselves through. (even 4 models wide you'll be able to turn enough for the wheel effect.

Shimmergloom
31-07-2006, 17:31
You're not allowed to move a model with a 8 inch march max, 24 inches.

There's lots of beardy tactics you can do with fanatics if you're flat out cheating.

NakedFisherman
31-07-2006, 17:37
You're not allowed to move a model with a 8 inch march max, 24 inches.

Yes you are. The unit only 'wheels' approximately 2 inches.

Shimmergloom
31-07-2006, 17:46
If it only wheels 2 inches, then it's only 2 inches out of his deployment zone. So should be 22 inches away from any enemy, discounting scouts or if the other side got the first turn.

There's no physical way to wheel 2 inches and somehow have moved into fanatic range on movement turn 1, if the O&G player had the first turn and there's no scouts to draw out the fanatics. Unless you are obviously cheating.

No model in a unit can move MORE than the lowest movement for a model in that unit. So no model in a night goblin unit can EVER move more than 8 inches, I don't care how you deploy their formation.

NakedFisherman
31-07-2006, 17:59
No model in a unit can move MORE than the lowest movement for a model in that unit. So no model in a night goblin unit can EVER move more than 8 inches, I don't care how you deploy their formation.

And where is that rule written?

Milgram
31-07-2006, 18:19
no one would ever say something if you have a bretonian unit of 9 knights within 8 inch of an enemy. you wheel them for 3 inches and move then 5 inches. and why would no one ever complain? because it is absolutely correct.

ok... you now have this bretonian unit of 9 knights. the unit is 3 inches wide and 6 inches long. if you wheel 3 inches, the outside knight in the front rank moved 3 inches. the one in the back corner moves around 6 inches. if you move now 5 inches, the one in the back moves a total of 11 inches - and this is correct.

now add some more knights. lets say another 9. now the last knight will move about 12 inches while 3 inches turning. add another 9 knights... 18 inches.

the one on the 'turnpoint' wheels not more than about 1 inch. now imagine the unit with only one knight in the front rank. so we get back to 9 knights in total. the first one turns for about an inch, the last one will turn for 18 inches.

totally allowed.

it's not like the goblins are starring at the enemy... they are looking for the short table edge. and it's not like they want to turn 90 degree... they just wheel.

Shimmergloom
01-08-2006, 00:53
And where is that rule written?

pg. 47 of the BRB.

None of your examples make any sense for the issue at hand, which is the claim that you can move goblins 24 inches to release fanatics on turn 1.

pg. 49 even says that the entire unit counts as moving as far as the outside model, not the inside model, which is the pivoting model which is remaining stationary for the most part.

So no, it's not totally allowed for an outside knight or goblin to move 18 inches during the wheel, because that is more than their movement.

Under the examples on pg 48, you can see how you are suppose to pivot.

I would like to see some examples in diagram form that show this goblin unit who is somehow able to wheel 24 inches and get fanatics released on turn 1, before an opponent can even move.

NakedFisherman
01-08-2006, 03:24
Shimmergloom, you need to read the rules as they are and not how you want them to be. It's the beardiest maneuver ever, but it's perfectly within the rules.

I also don't think you're understanding how it works...

Warlord_Grotsnik
04-08-2006, 12:40
I see you happily ignored my post, I said goblins are too cheap now AND SKAVENSLAVES AND CLANRATS TOO. The thing is, they can´t change their cost in the orcs & goblins book, so stop bitching about ratmen, and wait it out to the next book, where hopefully they´ll get toned down. Has I´ve already said, hordes are too damn good rigth now

I did read your post, I don't want clanrats and skavenslaves upcosted. That is why I didn't post on that paticular point. They are fine as they are.

Edit: Just thought I'd have to say, when you come up with a counter-argument, try not to throw the rediculous "half-full or half-empty" style at me or other people who rant. I assume you people don't read distopian novels, because that is exactly the behavior spewed out to people who don't want to be insane.

Grontik
04-08-2006, 13:27
I don't think you guys are explaining this Wheel of Doom well enough because from the way it sounds to me, it would be illegal. The original person to bring this up said a long single rank which is where I think the confusion may lie. If you mean a long single file of goblins and then wheel on the front one then I can begin to see what you are saying.

Shimmergloom
07-08-2006, 18:33
Based on that BMP pic, I really gotta say that manuevor is illegal.

If they are facing one way, they cannot wheel sideways. They have to turn to face the direction which you are going to wheel, which takes up half your movement. Plus you cannot make ANY turns or formation changes and still march.

So a turn to face that direction in which they are wheeling in that picture, would result in them having only 2 inches of movement left in which to wheel.

That would hardly allow a unit to move 24 inches in one turn.

I'd really like to see examples of this posted that show the unit on the table top in detail.

Cause all I've heard and seen so far show something completely illegal that people let their opponents get away with and then complain how cheesy night goblins are.

NakedFisherman
07-08-2006, 19:17
I don't think I can explain it any further. The goblins deploy facing a short board edge with one long file. They wheel to the left. The goblins at the end of the file move about 12" for every 1" wheeled by the lead goblin...

ganymed
07-08-2006, 19:24
Iīm with Shimmergloom on this one.
read BRB on page 50 under "reform"

[...]none of the models in the unit move more than twice their movement rate (ie men with their movement rate of 4" may move up to 8") [...]
and, more important page 47

[...]the odd fraction of an inch will inevitanly disappear as lines are neatened and models pitched together. On the whole, this need not cause concern as it is better to keep the game flowing rather than worrying about unavoidable imprecision. It is recommended that where a move is especially important or an excact measurement is critical, it is good practise to agree what you are doing with your opponent before moving troops.[...]

This move :wtf: would be quite important, so as your normal wheeling a knights lance and measuring only the front models might be ok with me, this move would not be ok, hence iīd not allow it.

I think the "spirit of the rules" is quite clear, donīt take anything too serious when moving models in general. Regarding charge ranges etc. half an inch might very well be important to decide wether a charge is succesful or not, so here you should be more restrictive. All this nice turning (Zombie - conga, fanatic wheel of doom) is not acceptable by these rulings, also, here I agree, it should have been made clearer . I īve also read that this has happened in the next editionīs rulebook :cheese:

The Dark One
07-08-2006, 19:34
i agree, i can't see how a model with m4 can move 24inches in one move

Milgram
07-08-2006, 19:48
Iīm with Shimmergloom on this one.
read BRB on page 50 under "reform"

it's not a reform. if it was, you would be right. it is wheeling - can't tell you the page on the english book.

Shimmergloom
07-08-2006, 20:40
That is irrelevant. In the BRB on page 47 it says that units can move UP to their movement rate. If you are marching with m4, the models in the unit can move UP to 8 inches. It doesn't matter where the models are located in the unit, thier max movement when marching(which can be done when wheeling) is 8 inches. NO exceptions. They do allow that sometimes a model may move a fraction of an inch or more over this in some manuveors and they are telling us not to be rules lawyers about this. But a unit moving 24inches when they have max m8 when marching is not a fraction of an inch.

This is illegal. Plain and simple. That model on the outside can move 8 inches max. I don't care how much movement the model in the front has left when he's wheeling to try and cheat.

I think the problem is that too many of us don't bother to read the first few pages about characteristics and movement and such, cause we feel we understand them so much.

But from now on when someone tries this against you, show them page 47.

So it doesn't matter if the wheeling rules say that the model on the outside counts as the max move in the wheel. Which gives these cheaters their loophole to say that since the unit is in one rank, the model moving is both on the inside and outside, so they think they can do their cheat move.

That page on wheeling was written, with the assumption that people would not try something so terrible as line up in one rank and try a 24 inch wheel where the rear rank swings around like that.

So in this case you show them page 47 again. That model in rank 20 is just as limited to a max move of m8 when marching as the model in rank 1.

The only difference is that in normal games, with normal formations, we dont' worry if the rear rank trooper has moved a bit more than his movement, when you are wheeling and moving using the front rank and the outside model as your movement source.

Anyway, if your opponent does this and won't listen to page 47, then don't play him anymore. Plain and simple. You should never cater to outright cheaters.

And if this happened in a tourney and they allowed it, then clearly the rules guys there have no concept of language and how to read a rulebook, so demand your money back and maybe question their heritage.

Kotobuki
08-08-2006, 00:09
That is irrelevant. In the BRB on page 47 it says that units can move UP to their movement rate. If you are marching with m4, the models in the unit can move UP to 8 inches. It doesn't matter where the models are located in the unit, thier max movement when marching(which can be done when wheeling) is 8 inches. NO exceptions. They do allow that sometimes a model may move a fraction of an inch or more over this in some manuveors and they are telling us not to be rules lawyers about this. But a unit moving 24inches when they have max m8 when marching is not a fraction of an inch.

This is illegal. Plain and simple. That model on the outside can move 8 inches max. I don't care how much movement the model in the front has left when he's wheeling to try and cheat.

I think the problem is that too many of us don't bother to read the first few pages about characteristics and movement and such, cause we feel we understand them so much.

But from now on when someone tries this against you, show them page 47.

So it doesn't matter if the wheeling rules say that the model on the outside counts as the max move in the wheel. Which gives these cheaters their loophole to say that since the unit is in one rank, the model moving is both on the inside and outside, so they think they can do their cheat move.

That page on wheeling was written, with the assumption that people would not try something so terrible as line up in one rank and try a 24 inch wheel where the rear rank swings around like that.

So in this case you show them page 47 again. That model in rank 20 is just as limited to a max move of m8 when marching as the model in rank 1.

The only difference is that in normal games, with normal formations, we dont' worry if the rear rank trooper has moved a bit more than his movement, when you are wheeling and moving using the front rank and the outside model as your movement source.

Anyway, if your opponent does this and won't listen to page 47, then don't play him anymore. Plain and simple. You should never cater to outright cheaters.

And if this happened in a tourney and they allowed it, then clearly the rules guys there have no concept of language and how to read a rulebook, so demand your money back and maybe question their heritage.Shimmergloom, I just read that section of the rulebook. The only mention of individual models in a unit moving not more than twice the M characteristic of the model applies to reforming. I see no other mention of that.

p.47 talks in general about movement, and in specific the M characteristic. The mention of losing/gaining inches refers to terrain and redressing units. When they get into the hard and fast rules they continually use the term 'unit' which they define in the paragraphs following.

Under wheeling specifically it says "When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model."

Technically, it IS a legal manoeuvre. It's lame, but legal.

Shimmergloom
08-08-2006, 02:14
I would like to respond. It's pg 47 under movement rate. You can't miss it. Units can move up to their movement rate in inches.

It doesn't say individual models, it says units. Reforming is on pg 49 anyway.

And actually it doesn't make this argument irrelevant. This argument stems from those saying night goblins and fanatics needed nerfing cause of things like this. And this is something clearly illegal, which makes their argument invalid. How anyone let models that are m4, move 24 inches and get away with it, is beyond me.

NakedFisherman
08-08-2006, 03:24
And this is something clearly illegal, which makes their argument invalid. How anyone let models that are m4, move 24 inches and get away with it, is beyond me.

Because it's a loophole in the rules...

Kotobuki
08-08-2006, 03:40
I would like to respond. It's pg 47 under movement rate. You can't miss it. Units can move up to their movement rate in inches.

It doesn't say individual models, it says units. Reforming is on pg 49 anyway.

And actually it doesn't make this argument irrelevant. This argument stems from those saying night goblins and fanatics needed nerfing cause of things like this. And this is something clearly illegal, which makes their argument invalid. How anyone let models that are m4, move 24 inches and get away with it, is beyond me.

EXACTLY. That, right there! You are stating the exact rule that makes it possible! UNITS may move up to thier M distance. Under wheeling it states how you figure out how far the UNIT has moved. Which is... bah-buh-dah-bah! the distance moved by the outside model in the front rank during a wheel! Therefor, if the outside model in the front rank wheels 1.5" and the back model in the unit is moved 18" to accomodate the front of the unit's movement... the back model (along with EVERY OTHER MODEL in the unit), and the UNIT as a whole... has moved 1.5"!

The ONLY time you need to worry about the distance moved by INDIVIDUAL MODELS is when the unit 'reforms' as shown on p.49.

Shimmergloom
08-08-2006, 03:59
It doesn't work like that. You're reading something that's not there.

It says the UNIT can move it's max move distance.

If that model in the rear rank is in the UNIT and it is. THen it can move a max of 8 inches regardless of if the model in the front of the unit still has Movement left or not.

The reason we never worry about models in the rear ranks under normal circumstances is because the difference they move is negligible compared to the movement used by the models up front.

If you wanted to be a rules lawyer then you could complain about it, but they tell you in the Movement section not to worry about small differences in movement.

But in the scenario you guys are talking about the models in the rear ranks are moving FAR, FAR above their Movement value. So you should never allow it and should at the very least, stop playing people who did so.

In fact, stop playing the person as soon as you see them line their models up like that.

I just can't understand people just letting people move units with M4 24inches across the table.

Seriously, if it looks fishy and it smells fishy, it's fishy and cheating.

Kotobuki
08-08-2006, 04:15
It does work like that. In fact, it works EXACTLY like that. I am reading exactly the rules that ARE presented, no more and no less. I am making no inference, or attempting to apply any sort of outside logic to the situation. This IS how the rules read, as they have been written, and presesnted.

Show me where in the rules of movement it says that when a unit moves, that no individual model in the unit can exceed it's M distance. Please. I would love to see it. An exact quote please.

Because, unless I'm missing it, the ONLY place that mentions that we have to worry about how far an individual MODEL within a UNIT moves, is when a unit reforms.

The reference on p.47 under the Movement Characteristic deals SPECIFICALLY with 'units'. The rules for Wheeling under Manoeuvres tells you (quite specifically, mind you) how to measure how far the UNIT has moved when it wheels.

NONE of the places you have cited mention the distances moved by individual models. And the only 'relevant' reference you can bring to bear is the mention that "the odd fraction of an inch will inevitably dissapear as lines are neatened and models edged together." Which, by the by, has nothing to do with the actual measuring of distances for moving.

The only mention in that same area of the page even dealing with measurements is "where a move is especially important or an exact meansurment is critical, it is good practice to agree what you are doing with your opponent before moving troops." Which has absolutely nothing to do with our debate, as we're not talking about a manoeuvre that is going to be down to the fractions of an inch to pull off successfully.

I will agree with you that it's a lame tactic to use, exploits a loophole, and is entirely unsportsmanlike and against the spirit of the game. It is, however, entirely legal.

JonnyTHM
08-08-2006, 05:05
Okay, I know I might be jumping in over my head, but this seems to be a situation where we've got both sides not reading things clearly.

1) Nowhere in the 'movement rate' section on p.47 does it really restrict this 'trick'. It seems to be a very odd section to even include in the rule book, as it is immediately corrected by the introduction of marching and maneuvers.

2) Nowhere in the description of a wheel does it refer to the front outside model, only to the 'outside model'. If you want to exploit this as a loophole, then you would have to admit the equally ambiguous use of the 'outside model' to include the idea of the model being at the opposite corner to the pivot point being the outside model.

So, at the risk of not making any friends by posting this I'd like to put forward that:

a) no one had been reading the rule carefully enough to be correcting each other

b) but if you do, any attempt to creatively interpret a wheel to allow this maneuver, also allows the interpretation that prevents it and therefore makes the maneuver illegal.


I guess I should also say, hi, I'm new to the board. It's been nice reading all these posts, as a whole everyone seems really nice.

Milgram
08-08-2006, 06:20
2) Nowhere in the description of a wheel does it refer to the front outside model, only to the 'outside model'. If you want to exploit this as a loophole, then you would have to admit the equally ambiguous use of the 'outside model' to include the idea of the model being at the opposite corner to the pivot point being the outside model.

I'd love to play against you and remember you to this understanding of the rule every time you wheel and move the maximum range with any of your units.

IF this rule is understood like you do it, then one of the diagramms (and the example attached to it) is completely wrong, namely the one that a unit makes two wheeling moves and the outside model in the first rank is considered to determin movement range. so it is no creative interpretation but one that is shown by an example in the rulebook - which apparently should be correct.

the outside model in the last rank will ALWAYS move more than the outside model in the first rank when you wheel. even if you only have one rank, the backside corner of the outside model moves more than the front corner. I can't believe you ever played it like this - because it would be wrong.

/edit: you hate bretonnians, right? because you try to screw them with your 'normal' interpretation.

Milgram
08-08-2006, 07:38
that's exactly the point. and it's only a obvious situation while doing a full turn. btw: the actual movement of point B will be about 20 inches in this example.

JonnyTHM
08-08-2006, 12:37
Right, I don't know if you read carefully what I said... My point was that due to the ambiguity, if you want to abuse the rule, it allows a counter interpretation. I am not an idiot, I'm not going to actually play with that wheel rule, but then again one would hope no one would try to wheel goblins across the entire battlefield.

I don't hate brettonians, in fact they're one of the two armies that I play. I'm not going to attempt to restrict any player that I face to an abusive interpretation of the rules unless they attempt the same with me.

The fact remains that the rule is ambiguous, and doesn't specify which 'outside model'. Aswell, the diagram is rather rough, unless you take a 'big curved arrow' to be an exact measurement, then it's a very technical diagram (especially given that it doesn't make any measurements).

To reiterate:
if someone would like to abuse the rules by attempting to interpret them in a manner contrary to how they were obviously intended, it allows one to just as abusively interpret the written rules in order to counter their abusive interpretation.

And as a final point:

all of this is moot as:
a single file of models is not governed by the rules for wheeling. They instead snake, and so just follow the lead model as he moves. Turning the lead model 90 degrees does nothing, the rest of the models simply stand there and wait for the other model to move forward so they can follow.



As an aside:
With the diagram given, if the horse is arcing around in a half circle with radius 75 mm, why isn't the wheeling arc 235.62 mm as would be implied by geometry?

Grontik
08-08-2006, 13:38
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I bet that this has been argued to death on other forums with no clear resolution. And the fact that it may be a moot point in a month makes it seem all the more silly. I am of the mind that this falls under the ambiguous rules category and should be buried in an unmarked grave ... Waaaaaaaagh!!!

Milgram
08-08-2006, 13:41
I think this is due to a lack of knowledge - how far an inch really is. it is not 25 mm. :)

to snake, they have to declare the snake. but it would also work with 30 goblins... 40 points more than you have to with one file.

edit: well... even in a month it will still work. although the fanatics will not be THAT hard anymore, they will still give anyone with armour not better 3+ a real hard time and the rest a hard time. there are enough other tactics that you can use with this wheel. imagine stubborn or even unbreakable units in front of frenzy enemies... or to get a good shield against shooting: you wheel 1 inch, make a 180 degree reform, wheel another inch and then 90 degree to look in the direction of your enemy...

samw
08-08-2006, 14:08
The mistakes in the diagram were from a mixture of doing it in the early hours, not having a calculator handy and not having done maths beyong mental arithmetic for two years. I've removed it, but you get the idea.

Festus
08-08-2006, 16:28
Hi

What a stupid piece of ******** have we here?

Shimmergloom is right: The manoeuvre is illegal, as no ngobbo may ever move more than 8" if marching or charging (before the free align) or 4" at other times.

Outside model does not mean FRONT outside model but outside model that moves the farthest.

I agree that it is pretty hard to measure on the actual game table, so noone really bothers in most situations (as it is a miniscule fraction of an inch really in *normal* wheels).

But if you try to gain such a blatantly illegal advantage like NF suggests, it is not funny anymore.

The wheel is illegal. period.

Festus

Festus
08-08-2006, 16:37
I forgot:

It does work like that. In fact, it works EXACTLY like that. I am reading exactly the rules that ARE presented, no more and no less. I am making no inference, or attempting to apply any sort of outside logic to the situation. This IS how the rules read, as they have been written, and presesnted.
You, Sir, are talking utter nonsense. The rules say otherwise.


Show me where in the rules of movement it says that when a unit moves, that no individual model in the unit can exceed it's M distance. Please. I would love to see it. An exact quote please.
<---Removed by the WarSeer Inquisition--->

Then please turn to BRB p.47, left column, last but one paragraph and following...
...very precisely the last sentence of p.47, right column, first paragraph...:rolleyes:

<---Removed by the WarSeer Inquisition--->

Festus

Milgram
08-08-2006, 17:08
well... arguing on the internet...

but all your arguments have ben posted before. I believe that you're playing a single rank ogre or mounted high elf army or a skirmisher army. else you would see the absolute nonsense of your flaming.

EvC
08-08-2006, 17:20
Actually whenever I've been playing with big units of infantry and wheeling I would measure from the back corner of the unit. Come on, it just makes sense: the unit moves as slowly as the slowest member. That's the entire point, ya know, that larger units are more unwieldy and hard to maneuvre?

Shimmergloom
08-08-2006, 18:00
pg 47 does say that the unit can only move it's max movement and double that if marching and pursuing. The only exceptions are when you flee or pursue.

So again in your example, the back is moving 20 inches. That's more than their max march of 8inches, so the unit is moving more than it's max movement.

This is a simple concept. The unit counts as a whole, if any part of it, moves more than it's max move, then the unit is moving more than it's max move and is therefore illegal.

It would be like you claiming your rear ranks have ld 10 and T10. You can't do that. Just like you can't give them m10 with march of 20 inches. Except in rare circumstances that are clearly pointed out, or if there's a character in the unit, then the whole unit has the same stats.

Festus
08-08-2006, 18:26
Hi

but all your arguments have ben posted before. I believe that you're playing a single rank ogre or mounted high elf army or a skirmisher army. else you would see the absolute nonsense of your flaming.
Ever bothered to read the Rulebook yourself?

On the aforementioned page it reads (and I quote German, as you are Swiss):

p.47
Denk daran, dass du die Bewegungsf&#228;higkeit eines Modells nicht voll ausnutzen musst...
Das Modell darf sich lediglich nicht weiter bewegen, als es seine Bewegungsf&#228;higkeit erlaubt, solange es nicht marschiert, angreift, verfolgt oder flieht.

p.54
Marschieren erlaubt es Truppen, die weiter weg vom Kampfgeschehen sind, ihre Bewegungsf&#228;higkeit zu verdoppeln...

Synopsis:
A model may only move up to his M-value in inches, or up to double that if it marches, or an undefined amount if it pursues or flees. Charges are a special case.

Thus a NGobbo may not move more than 4"/8" in a wheel, as this can only be done if moving/marching... with the notable exception of charges. But charges are of no concern, as the wheel described can not ever be part of a charge.

Oh, and BTW, Mister-know-it-all: I play VC, CD, Kislev, Dwarfs, and Dark Eldar. Neither HE nor OK, nor any army with an abundance of Skirmishers. Just the opposite. Smartie... :eyebrows:

If you think that this is flaming in any way, go ahead and report me. It is the funny little button next to my post <---Response: And some of what you posted was flaming and has been removed by the WarSeer Inquisition--->

Festus

Milgram
08-08-2006, 18:39
If you think that this is flaming in any way, go ahead and report me. It is the funny little button next to my post :rolleyes:

he who is without sin, throws the first stone. :p

even IF I would accept your point... the wheel of doom would still be working as you are able to march in the first turn. ;)

NakedFisherman
08-08-2006, 18:41
Outside model does not mean FRONT outside model but outside model that moves the farthest.

That's funny, that rule must be omitted from my rulebook. The diagram must also be entirely different!

NakedFisherman
08-08-2006, 18:48
Synopsis:
A model may only move up to his M-value in inches, or up to double that if it marches, or an undefined amount if it pursues or flees. Charges are a special case.

Thus a NGobbo may not move more than 4"/8" in a wheel, as this can only be done if moving/marching... with the notable exception of charges. But charges are of no concern, as the wheel described can not ever be part of a charge.

A Night Goblin UNIT can never move more than double its M value. The unit moves as far as the outside model in the front rank just like the diagram shows.

Festus
08-08-2006, 18:49
Hi

he who is without sin, throws the first stone. :p

even IF I would accept your point... the wheel of doom would still be working as you are able to march in the first turn. ;)
No, it would not, as no MODEL is allowed to move more than his double M-value during marching. And 20" is clearly more than the last NGobbo's double M-value of 4"/8". Or is it not?

Festus
08-08-2006, 18:50
Hi

A Night Goblin UNIT can never move more than double its M value. The unit moves as far as the outside model in the front rank just like the diagram shows.
Did you read p.47?

My BRB talks about MODELS not being allowed to move farther than their M, or more than double that during Marches (I will ignore FLee/Pursuit and CHarges for now)...

What does yours say?

Oh, and would you mind ignoring the diagram, which obviously is not exact enough for our purposes, as it doesn't even show the way of measuring or the way the unit moves...

Kotobuki
08-08-2006, 19:00
Festus, nothing on page 47 mentions the movement of a single model within a unit. The only two references to individual models on the entire page are...

"and the stability of the models themselves means that it is impossible to be absolutely accurate" in the left colum, last paragraph, and...

"The normal Movement rate of a model is defined by its Movement (M) characteristic value" in the first paragraph under Movement Rate.

The rules it DOES give for moving models about the table are all worded in reference to the UNIT, with the sole exception of models moving during a reform. When performing that specific manoeuvre, and ONLY that manoeuvre is the distance moved by any individual MODEL within a UNIT of any importance.

If you can show me ANYWHERE in the movement rules where it SPECIFICALLY mentions that the movement of individual MODELS rather than the movement of UNITS is calculated and of concern, I will agree that you are correct.

However, until you can show me that, and you stop reading more into the rules than what is printed, you are mistaken. No matter how much you might like to think otherwise, an no amount of referencing the same section (which does nothing to re-enforce your position, by the way) will change the fact of the matter.

Additionally, your snide remaks about my supposed lack of education are entirely unwarranted. They also serve only to undermine your own arguements.

Shimmergloom, finally, you are seeing what is written on p.47. "During their Movement phase, UNITS can move up to thier Movement rate in inches." Emphasis on the word UNITS is mine.

The important part about this is the deliberate use of the words UNIT(S) and MODEL(S). Since they are NOT used interchangably, and each word is used in different context, and in different instances throughout the rule book in general, and this section in particulare, it is quite simple to see that they are indeed seperate words.

They CANNOT be used interchangably. The word MODEL refers to an individual piece, and how it behaves, either on it's own, or within a unit. The word UNIT refers to a collection of MODELS and how they behave when arranged together in a formation. Understanding this fundamental difference is paramount.

Of ALL the descriptions of ALL the different manoeuvres, the ONLY (yes, really, this is the only other time the word MODEL is used) reference to MODELS in a UNIT and how far they're allowed to move is under the REFORM manoeuvre on p.49.

The only other mention of movement within a unit is under TURN where it states that "When a UNIT is turned to face its side or rear, its leader is automatically rearranged into the front rank..." This is movement of a MODEL in relation to (and within) a UNIT. This intraunit movement is free, as it is not listed as using the MODEL's movement. The rules for TURNING also refer only to the use of the UNIT's movement.

There is no mention in the rule book of "if any part of it, moves more than it's max move, then the unit is moving more than it's max move". In fact, all the manoeuvre rules deal explicitly with how to count the UNIT's movement in relation to the M value.

Tell me, is this follwoing situation illegal? If so, cite/quote the rules that make it so.

I have a UNIT of Men (M4, with 20mm bases). My unit is 7 files, and 5 ranks. The front rank of my unit consists of a Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, two Character models, and two regular troopers. The Rightmost models in the front rank are the regular troopers. I turn my facing 90deg right, sacrificing 1/4 my M. My Command Section, and characters all move to the new front of my unit, leaving me with a unit of 5 files, and 7 ranks.

Is this legal?

NakedFisherman
08-08-2006, 19:01
Hi

Did you read p.47?

My BRB talks about MODELS not being allowed to move farther than their M, or more than double that during Marches (I will ignore FLee/Pursuit and CHarges for now)...

What does yours say?

Regardless, the section on wheeling very clearly states 'When it wheels, the entire unit counts as having moved as far as the outside model. Once the wheel is complete, you may use any movement that the unit has remaining.'

What would you suppose 'the entire unit' means?


Oh, and would you mind ignoring the diagram, which obviously is not exact enough for our purposes, as it doesn't even show the way of measuring or the way the unit moves...

Why would I ignore a section of the rules...?

Festus
08-08-2006, 19:12
Hi

Funnily enough, the German rulebook only talks about MODELS on p.47 (Which is not concerned with reforming but with Movement Rate, NF).


The important part about this is the deliberate use of the words UNIT(S) and MODEL(S). Since they are NOT used interchangably, and each word is used in different context, and in different instances throughout the rule book in general, and this section in particulare, it is quite simple to see that they are indeed seperate words.

They CANNOT be used interchangably. equally funny, they obviously can :cool:

Sylass
08-08-2006, 19:17
Shhht, guys. Please, there's no need to get into arguments here. It's just a game. ;)

Simply agree to disagree if there's no other way to solve this.

@Festus
A bit more careful next time, please.

Thread closed.

Captain Brown
08-08-2006, 19:31
Gentlemen,

I have deleted a couple of comments from a few posts. Even the smiley face or cool face will not protect you if you obviously make a personal attack on another member.

For the record you are both right, a unit (model) is not supposed to move more than it's M value, however when wheeling to line up a charge a model may move more than it's movement rate to line up the models.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition