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BodhiTree
08-08-2006, 15:26
(Sorry if this has been asked before, I tried to search the board for it.)

Edit: I should have made the title "Comparing and Contrasting the Legions". :(

The Alternative Emperor and Warmaster thread got me thinking about the differences between the first founding legions. Were the 9 loyalist and 9 traitor legions supposed to parallel each other? If so, which pairings should they be, and why?

I can see some of the obvious ones, such as the Ultramarines vs. the Luna Wolves. Both legions had a strict organizational system and (debate on the heresy not included) were the largest legions.

I guess you could argue for the Blood Angels vs. the World Eaters - at least in the post-heresy sense. I'm not entirely sure of where the other legions would stand. I've heard of the comparison between the Salamanders and the Death Guard, or the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors, but I don't truly understand those comparisons. I have even more difficulty imagining where the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons would fit in. So maybe the comparison system doesn't work, but then again, so many of you folks know the fluff better than I do.

Khaine's Messenger
08-08-2006, 17:17
Were the 9 loyalist and 9 traitor legions supposed to parallel each other?

In a sense, yes. Each side can be loosely described as having nine archetypical groups, or Primarchs who both embodied the same concept but in different ways (let's say, Corax and Night Haunter). However, the pairings people suggest often have an odd couple at the end that doesn't really make all that much sense except they're the last Primarchs to pair off.

Given the way in which the Sons of Horus refer to things (in terms of the humors), there may be four primarchs for each "side" that represent choler (rage), sanguinity (courageous, loving), melancholy (thoughtful yet potentially depressed), and phlegm (calm and unemotional) to different degrees. Yet, Horus kept advisors close (at least until Davin) so he could keep his "humors" balanced and his soul in check (per Dorn's comments), so it is just as well that this method of description has no real meaning.


I can see some of the obvious ones, such as the Ultramarines vs. the Luna Wolves. Both legions had a strict organizational system and (debate on the heresy not included) were the largest legions.

On the other hand, the Ultramarines were very strict, organizationally speaking, and their primary complement and counterpart was the Alpha Legion.


I've heard of the comparison between the Salamanders and the Death Guard, or the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors, but I don't truly understand those comparisons.

The Salamanders and the Death Guard were the embodiment of steadfastness in the face of adversity (willing to weather any storm, march into the heart of any hell, and persevere), and the Fists/Warriors stubborn pig-headedness (neither legion would ever admit to failure even if it would cost them their lives). Both Mortarion and Perturabo twisted such things into blackened images, though...even at the beginning, Mortarion was too prideful to ask for help, and Perturabo, while not enjoying his lot, allowed his anger to simmer.


I have even more difficulty imagining where the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons would fit in.

Actually, pre-Heresy, the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers would be perfect cousins. Lorgar's received truths and Magnus' divinations would be close, if it were not for the fact that Lorgar had been overtly touched by the Chaos Gods and Magnus only indirectly so. Given the role of both in False Gods, I wouldn't be surprised. But then that would kill off the loyalist/heretic comparison notion.

BodhiTree
08-08-2006, 21:39
On the other hand, the Ultramarines were very strict, organizationally speaking, and their primary complement and counterpart was the Alpha Legion.
Now that makes some sense, I'm getting the feeling that there's more to the comparison than just one-off pairings.



The Salamanders and the Death Guard were the embodiment of steadfastness in the face of adversity (willing to weather any storm, march into the heart of any hell, and persevere), and the Fists/Warriors stubborn pig-headedness (neither legion would ever admit to failure even if it would cost them their lives). Both Mortarion and Perturabo twisted such things into blackened images, though...even at the beginning, Mortarion was too prideful to ask for help, and Perturabo, while not enjoying his lot, allowed his anger to simmer.
Thanks for the clarification. :) That makes more sense to me now.



Actually, pre-Heresy, the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers would be perfect cousins. Lorgar's received truths and Magnus' divinations would be close, if it were not for the fact that Lorgar had been overtly touched by the Chaos Gods and Magnus only indirectly so. Given the role of both in False Gods, I wouldn't be surprised. But then that would kill off the loyalist/heretic comparison notion.
Heh, yeah, that's a problem for the theory. It's probably going to take some more careful reading of the IA articles to determine who their loyalist counterparts are. Perhaps the Word Bearers are not too different from the Iron Hands, in so far as their beliefs concerning some aspects of humanity (the Emperor being a God, humanity being weak by nature) share a rough similarity.

This is leading me to a new line of thought, that every loyalist/traitor Primarch/Legion had a partial counterpart in 2 of the opposing Primarchs/Legions. The suggestion that Corax/Raven Guard are similar to Alpharius/Alpha Legion in one respect but then attached to Night Haunter/Night Lords in another light. Similarly, the contrast between the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves and Alpha Legion. I wonder if this would work... especially following the concept of the humours. Not every Primarch seems bound to one of them, and it seems more likely that they all sat on the cusp of two humours. Well, maybe not Angron :D , but c'mon, it's all in his name!