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La'mour Le Breton
08-08-2006, 22:47
Is there any fluff about marines dying of Old Age? i know they always die in battle,and their supposed to be immortal, but have there ever been any exceptions?

Commander Ozae
08-08-2006, 22:56
I believe that you are using the fluff from the Horus Heresy books which were written when the marines didn't know their mortatlity. It is extremely rare for marines to die of old age but older fluff does say it happened. Normal marines (Ultras) will live to be about 500 years old naturally while Blood Angels and their Successors live to be like 1,000. The Custodes on the other hand are supposedly immortal.

La'mour Le Breton
08-08-2006, 23:00
Im not asking how long there lifespan is, but if there is any fluff about a marine dying of old age? im sure that marine would be pretty pissed about it

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-08-2006, 00:20
I'm sure it happens, but a marine dying of old age isn't really very... action-packed, ergo no stories have been written involving it.

nurgleman
09-08-2006, 00:30
Well apparently space marines become senile if they live long enough as witnessed in the horus heresy series. Also there was some fluff about an old space marine that was retired in a Armegeddon series book, but that book was absolute drivel and I couldn't bring myself to finish it.

My theory is they can because the space marines are using really old gene seed.

Icarus
09-08-2006, 02:18
In terms of your average Space Marine, I seem to remember its been said that Space Marines can live to around 300 years old if they don't die in battle, although Blood Angels can live for up to 500 years plus. I think this was dealt with the Blood Angels Index Astartes article but I'd have to check.

However there are obviously notable exceptions, as many great Space Marine heroes have ages far in excess of that. The oldest I believe is Dante of the Blood Angels who is over 1100 years old!

Outlaw289
09-08-2006, 03:17
I think they die of natural causes at age 500-ish, but can last thousands with surgery/juvenant processes, and even longer encased in dreadnoughts or as immobile beings hooked up to life support (like the Emperor but without devouring souls)

GodofWarTx
09-08-2006, 03:46
I cant see the opportunity ever arising. Just like you wont see many antalope in africa die of "natural causes". When out in the field, their old age makes them slow and weak when being hunted by predators, so are taken down by the lionesses without nearly the struggle as their more nimble fellows.

I figure a space marine will become vulnerable in battle, zigs when he shoudl have zagged, or not being able to recover from a grevious injury like a younger marine would.

Malphax
09-08-2006, 04:45
I think they die of natural causes at age 500-ish, but can last thousands with surgery/juvenant processes, and even longer encased in dreadnoughts or as immobile beings hooked up to life support (like the Emperor but without devouring souls)

Like the dreadnought Bjorn the Fell-Handed, who knew Leman Russ personally, and lives in the Space Wolves' basement on Fenris. That guy has some of THE coolest fluff in the game.

Outlaw289
09-08-2006, 04:49
Like the dreadnought Bjorn the Fell-Handed, who knew Leman Russ personally, and lives in the Space Wolves' basement on Fenris. That guy has some of THE coolest fluff in the game.

For a second I thought you said rules instead of fluff

I was like "S3, Immobile, Special Rules: In a basement" :eyebrows: :p

Adept
09-08-2006, 05:07
Well apparently space marines become senile if they live long enough as witnessed in the horus heresy series.

Are you referring to Iacton Qruze, the half heard? He most certainly was not senile.

Personally, I've never read anything about a Marine dying of old age.

Qwerp64
09-08-2006, 07:23
Well if you look at Chaos, they are supposedly 10k years old. (Well I cant believe they are all that old because they have to replenish their dead somehow unless they can return from the warp after they die, but thats going off topic.) So if the Chaos survived 10,000 years without dying from natural causes and not having extended life due to chaotic influence due to the eye of terror, then logically the space marines should be able to as well.
Unfortunately, that really isn't conclsive. Oh well, take what you can out of that...

Adlan
09-08-2006, 08:31
For a space marine, death in battle is natural causes.

I have never heard of any space marine dying of oldage, but they do state marines lifespan. So how do they know the lifespan unless they die of oldage?

Wazzahamma
09-08-2006, 08:39
What about that Night Norld from Lord of Night- he was around since pre-heresy- was his longevity due to chaos or just his biological enhancement?

La'mour Le Breton
09-08-2006, 09:04
Chaos space marines dont age as we think of it. many of them that come from the eye of terror may have just left the heresy. its probably possible to fight the same group the same time. time doesn't flow correctly (or at all) in the eye.kinda like the forest of lorhen(sp?)wood elves. Chaos marines who have been under the influence of chaos are really not mortal anymore. they and their armour are fused so that they are one. their blood is the stuff of pure chaos. thats why if they claim to be 10s of thousands of years old. they probably are.
I bet that for a marine to die of old age, it would have to be te worst disgrace ever. not to die in battle would be tantamount to heresy.

heretics bane
09-08-2006, 09:30
Well if you look at Chaos, they are supposedly 10k years old. (Well I cant believe they are all that old because they have to replenish their dead somehow unless they can return from the warp after they die, but thats going off topic.) So if the Chaos survived 10,000 years without dying from natural causes and not having extended life due to chaotic influence due to the eye of terror, then logically the space marines should be able to as well.
Unfortunately, that really isn't conclsive. Oh well, take what you can out of that...

in the eye of terror has a different time periods so 1 year to them is 500 for us,so they really would'nt age normal marine on the other hand can get there organs renewed or injected with more combat drugs.

Pain
09-08-2006, 09:31
Regarding Iacton Qruze: Wasn't Iacton one of those Marines that were created during the Unification Wars on Earth and therefore a different type of Marine - some kind of older type/creation process was used?

Wazzahamma
09-08-2006, 09:51
He was around in the Unification Wars, but he might have been created at the tail end of them, and therefore the same sort of marine as any modern astartes. At this point though, there's no clarification either way.

Sergeant Tanthius
09-08-2006, 10:27
There is *one* small mention of marines about to die of old age...that of the Deathwing fluff. In the story Cloud runner went back to his people to see them before age takes him - the only example of marines dying of old age that I can think of.

However, I'm not sure of the age of that piece of fluff, hence I amd placing my bet on Loken's words.

El_Machinae
09-08-2006, 10:32
I'd imagine that they not only get slower, but might actually become more reckless too, since they certainly do not want to die of old age.

jedipenguin
09-08-2006, 11:49
I dont think you can put an exact figure on a marines age as they (like all men) live to wildly varying ages.

Also, as some people have mentioned, gene-seed of certain chapters lends its members certain advantages, Blood Angels (and I imagine their succesors) being widely regarded as the longest lived of all SM with lifespans over 1000 recorded (Commander Dante being the best contemporary example).

Space Wolves also seem to be fairly long lived given certain accounts. Logan Grimmnar and Ulrik the Slayer both fought at the 1st Battle for Armageddon (vs Angrons hordes) although reports are conflicting as to what rank Ulrik held at the time, his saga in the SW Dex says he was a WG, his entry in a later IA Article indicated he was a Bloodclaw and other sources would make him a Wolf priest by that point, as he is said to have helped train Logan who was already the Great Wolf by that point (gogo GW continuity)

These various conflicts asides it places Logan and Ulrik well in thier 600-700's (as the first war for Armageddon happened approx 500yrs before the current timeframe). Also worth mentioning is Egil Ironwolf who is reputed to be even older than Logan Grimnar (probably in the 800-900 region)

As to the actual question :P

The second SW Novel (Ragnars claw) detailed a conversation between Ragnar and an elderly SW who appeared to have reached such an old age he had been given a 'desk job' working on the great archives of the chapter. This seems to indicate that is indeed possible for age to catch up with a SM to such an extent that he is no longer counted amongst the chapters fighting strength. This can obvisouly be extended to the idea that eventually he will die of old age (more likely however if that he will see his own death coming and asked to be assigned to a dangerous mission so that he may die with his 'wound to the fore' as Russ intended)

ryng_sting
09-08-2006, 13:45
No one yet has heard of a marine dying of old age. They usually die in the field or from injuries relating to it, if they aren't entombed in a dreadnought.

The Deathwing fluff is old, and were GW to redo it today (and may well be for the upcoming DA codex) some of its detail might be retconned.

Marines in the Eye aren't ageing because time doesn't exist there.

The fluff says Ulrik knew Logan when he was a Blood Claw, not that he trained him.

jedipenguin
09-08-2006, 16:45
The fluff says Ulrik knew Logan when he was a Blood Claw, not that he trained him.

That depends on what fluff you read. The entire story surrounding Ulrik is a personal bugbear of mine in the continuity of the SW fluff.

And time 'does' exist within the warp/eye, it simply flows at a different pace to that experienced in the 'real' universe. The Legions do not age persay due to the mutating effects of the warp and the various gifts of their gods, but they do accumulate the experience of their time (there is a nice story in the back of the 2nd Edition Dark Millenium rulebook that details a Chaos Sorcerer conducting a ritual to literally 'clear out' his old uneeded memories to stop himself from going mad)

Skrittiblak
09-08-2006, 17:13
The second SW Novel (Ragnars claw) detailed a conversation between Ragnar and an elderly SW who appeared to have reached such an old age he had been given a 'desk job' working on the great archives of the chapter. This seems to indicate that is indeed possible for age to catch up with a SM to such an extent that he is no longer counted amongst the chapters fighting strength. This can obvisouly be extended to the idea that eventually he will die of old age (more likely however if that he will see his own death coming and asked to be assigned to a dangerous mission so that he may die with his 'wound to the fore' as Russ intended)

I don't think anyone will find a better response than this. Canon, referenced, and a strong opinion all around.

Its worth adding that few SMs will ever get to the stage where they are 'managing archives'. A lifetime career as a critical military unit pretty much guarantees they won't be around forever - power armour or not.

Apollyon
09-08-2006, 17:53
OLDE Ultras fluff had "retired" Marines marry chapter serfs and they ran the fleets and chapter auxilla.


Is there any fluff about marines dying of Old Age? i know they always die in battle,and their supposed to be immortal, but have there ever been any exceptions?

La'mour Le Breton
09-08-2006, 21:20
im sure that the space wolves would be the last (and i mean last) chapter to let their marines die of old age, isnt it every wolfs dream to die in battle, and not to do so might jepordise their chances of fighting in the wolf time?

Vogon
09-08-2006, 21:23
There is of course the old novel Space Marine in which we are told that Rogal Dorn died of old age hundreds of years after the Heresy so if a Primarch can die of old age I'm sure a Marine can.

Cheers

Vogon

jedipenguin
09-08-2006, 21:49
im sure that the space wolves would be the last (and i mean last) chapter to let their marines die of old age, isnt it every wolfs dream to die in battle, and not to do so might jepordise their chances of fighting in the wolf time?

I agree (hence the little bit I added in my reference), I was merely illustrating the fact that marines do get old enough to be 'retired' and by extension drawing the conclusion that it would be very possible for them to die of old age.

jedipenguin
09-08-2006, 21:51
There is of course the old novel Space Marine in which we are told that Rogal Dorn died of old age hundreds of years after the Heresy so if a Primarch can die of old age I'm sure a Marine can.

Cheers

Vogon

If memory serves the fluff was Rogal Dorn was revised to indicate he died in a boarding action against a chaos cruiser. Check out the IA: Imperial Fists article to confirm.

heretics bane
09-08-2006, 21:57
There is of course the old novel Space Marine in which we are told that Rogal Dorn died of old age hundreds of years after the Heresy so if a Primarch can die of old age I'm sure a Marine can.

Cheers

Vogon

was he not killed when he single handedly boarded a chaos vessel, and there is one marine that got a "deskjob" the guy called maloghurst in the HH series just sits about and looks at maps and battle plans

Lord Zarkov
09-08-2006, 21:57
they only found his hand though, not the rest of his body and there was a rumour that he returned to Terra

Vogon
09-08-2006, 22:01
If memory serves the fluff was Rogal Dorn was revised to indicate he died in a boarding action against a chaos cruiser. Check out the IA: Imperial Fists article to confirm.

None of that new-fangled fluff young whipper snapper. ;)

I think you're right and that old novel is no longer canon. Still a damned good read though and I think that the first half of teh book about turning initiates into marines still hold true with the current background.

Lancer
10-08-2006, 02:23
was he not killed when he single handedly boarded a chaos vessel, and there is one marine that got a "deskjob" the guy called maloghurst in the HH series just sits about and looks at maps and battle plans

Maloghurst the Twisted, who suffered grevious wounds when his shuttle was shot out of the sky of a false Terra on the order of a false Emperor of Man. He was found alive by a local farming family who took care of him until he was recovered by Imperial forces. Euphrati Keeler documented the story. He didn't get his deskjob due to old age, it was a combination of being unusually devious for an Astares of the XIV Legion and his physical injuries.

La'mour Le Breton
10-08-2006, 03:17
i dont think logan grimnar or ulric could have been at the 1st battle for armaggedon, I read in another thread that the 1st war was 2000 to 5000 years ago. russ is like 700, do the math, unless the person in the other thread was wrong (primarch death list), or russ and ulric got caught in a warp anomaly and came out 2000 years later. im not sure when the 1st war happened so correrct me if im wrong

jedipenguin
10-08-2006, 14:59
i dont think logan grimnar or ulric could have been at the 1st battle for armaggedon, I read in another thread that the 1st war was 2000 to 5000 years ago. russ is like 700, do the math, unless the person in the other thread was wrong (primarch death list), or russ and ulric got caught in a warp anomaly and came out 2000 years later. im not sure when the 1st war happened so correrct me if im wrong

The first war for armageddon occured in year 40,499 according to most sources, and all the fluff written about it is quite clear about Logan's role as supreme commander of the relief forces and his condemnation of the Administratum for their betrayal of the people of Armageddon in the aftermath (they had them rounded up, sterilised and put in forced labour/death camps to stop any potential demonic taint)

jedipenguin
10-08-2006, 15:03
None of that new-fangled fluff young whipper snapper. ;)

I think you're right and that old novel is no longer canon. Still a damned good read though and I think that the first half of teh book about turning initiates into marines still hold true with the current background.

Well depeneding how far you go back Rogal Dorns role changes even more, in the RT days (prior to the creation of the Primarch fluff) he was simply an IG commander. I think the rulebook even had a pciture of him in this incarnation.

Sai-Lauren
10-08-2006, 15:15
I've always felt that if a marine does ever get too old and infirm, even to stand as part of the chapters fortress defence forces or to teach the new recruits, they do something similar to the "Long Walk" in Judge Dredd (info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Walk_%28Judge_Dredd%29)- go out with a weapon and bring glorious death to the enemies of the Emperor until their own demise.

Commander Ozae
10-08-2006, 15:34
The whole running to your death thing would work for Space Wolves and Blood Angels but not some of the other chapters. The recruiting idea sounds pretty good though.

aximand
10-08-2006, 16:07
i think that marines were designed to live forever,forever maybe meaning millenia,but it is long enough.
it is sure that mutation or corruption of the gene seed can cause an astartes grow older and since newer marines sure dont have pure geneseed like the first founding ones they are sure to die sometime.
it is also sure that those first founding marines who are still alive are geneticaly perfect and will not die anytime soon (maybe if they get shot at,but,anyway!)that proves that its in their geneseed not to age , but nowadays geneseed is not pure,so yes current marines can die,but the odds are they will die fighting.
i ve read somewhere that chaos is also recruiting , fabious bile unlocked many gene mysteries, so, its sure they can die too,but still not on our rate.
cheers!

asmodai_dark86
10-08-2006, 16:22
Not finished Horus Rising yet but..

Wasn't 'the Half Heard' (cant remember the name, original leader of the Luna Wolves) really old? He took part in the Unification wars, but the question is when does he die..

Dante's got a good 1000 on him iirc.

I think its generally consider the case that a marine will live to a practically immortal age under the right conditions depending on his geneseed. Obviously the geneseed isnt going to last forever, but it'll keep a marine going indefinately if he isnt in battle all the time and stays in shape

FlashGordon
10-08-2006, 18:41
For a space marine, death in battle is natural causes.

I have never heard of any space marine dying of oldage, but they do state marines lifespan. So how do they know the lifespan unless they die of oldage?

Marines live to be about 500 years, that is true because, thats how long it takes before the average marine to die in battle.

Guardsmen live about 15 hours sometimes.;)

La'mour Le Breton
10-08-2006, 21:45
i remeber in horus rising, lokan though it ironic that marines were able to live forever (forever!!!!) but they were destined to die in battle
qoute p82 horus rising
"...The astartes,like the primarchs,were immortals. Age would not wither them,nor bring them down. They would live forever... five thousand years, ten thousand, beyond even that into some unimaginable millennium. Except for the Scythe of war..."
great passage too

Terminatorphoenix
10-08-2006, 21:56
That would be my luck i win the adeptus astartes lottery,ive got an eternity to enjoy it and the very next day its the battle of maggrage and i've been promoted to first company of the ultramarines...

La'mour Le Breton
10-08-2006, 23:09
well... you'd be honored for an eternity and you'd get to meet the Allmighty Emperor of Mankind right away