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Theadium
09-08-2006, 02:41
I play an Ulthwe Army. I love the ulthwe because they have a strong HQ unit and thier troops (guardians) are really strong. No one expects it when I place down 43 black guardians, that they do something vital in the game. 1/4 of my list is black guardians. However, I am frightened with the new codex that they may nerfed and screw my plan up... :'( Does anyone know if they will make an appearance in the new codex? Thanks

Malphax
09-08-2006, 05:20
I was under the impression that Ulthwe having "better" guardians was a design mistake that they intended to fix. Ulthwe was supposed to have MORE guardians, not guardians that could kill people by lookin' at em funny.

I imagine it'll be a similar army but it'll play a bit differently from how it used to.

shabbadoo
09-08-2006, 05:35
Don't worry. All the Ulthwe choices will be there, just not guardians with free enhanced stats. Black Guardians are now maybe just guardians with their helmets painted black perhaps. Or maybe the Black Guardians are dedicated combat units that are always on standby, or they are guadians who are attached to the personal retinues of certain farseers. Just a fluff thing, but there it is.

Quin 242
09-08-2006, 05:53
So to answer your question.. yes you are getting screwed.

I also have 42 black guardians so I feel your pain. Sadly 20 of them are BlackGuardian Storm Guardians.. absolutely useless now :(

sic
09-08-2006, 05:55
Sure its going to suck if you cant use 20 of your models but can we maybe just wait until the codex comes out before we cry nerfed?

Outlaw289
09-08-2006, 05:55
Ouch. Sorry to hear that. I played against an Ulthwe list once and it was enjoyable to play against. Too bad they're getting ruined

devolutionary
09-08-2006, 05:57
As a Thousand Sons fan, on the one hand I empathise. On the other, tough break but lifes like that. Ulthwe has long been a troublesome list, with advanced Guardians and the swarm-like Seer Council. Yes, you lose your Black Guardians, but may I advise using the "Counts As" rule? Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions should work, I believe. Sure, it's Elites in some cases, but it's not a serious issue. More than anything, you need to rejig your costs and cut down your squad sizes.

Quin 242
09-08-2006, 06:03
Sure its going to suck if you cant use 20 of your models but can we maybe just wait until the codex comes out before we cry nerfed?

Well when your unit of 20 folks with a WS5 I5 ASSAULT troops that used to need 3's to hit and took 4's to get hit back all of a sudden now need 4's to hit (when in either case they need 5's to wound)... it's GIANT blow.
60 attacks on a charge hitting 66% =40 hits = 13.33 wounds
same at 50% to hit = 30 hits = 10 wounds

that extra WS makes it likely that any MEQ's won't be hitting back. Yes you have a CHANCE that all ten will die with the WS4 but with my bent stats (i.e. bad luck) I'll take the buffer 3.333 extra models.

I dunno... just weakens an already fragile unit :(

Outlaw289
09-08-2006, 06:11
I was under the impression that Ulthwe having "better" guardians was a design mistake that they intended to fix.

*disclaimer* I'm not trying to sound like a smart-ass


How is having high Iniative and WS a mistake? I mean those are fairly obvious traits, and I mean they ARE distinguished as Black Guardians instead of just Guardians, no?

Malphax
09-08-2006, 06:14
It's a mistake because one of the R&D guys at GW said that Ulthwe Guardians were a mistake. "More Guardians =/= Better Guardians" was the gist of it. I'm not really gonna argue with the guy who makes the rules.

Kahadras
09-08-2006, 06:20
Well I'm glad to see the back of the seer council of doom. The council is there to direct the battle and provide psychic support IMO. Not wade in as an assault squad.

For all those people who did shell out on a massive seer council, well it sucks to be you. That's where band wagon jumping will get you.

I also wish to highlight the fact that Ulthwe is not 'screwed'. It's just being balanced. Everybody who has a reasonable army can probably expect to see very little change. For the people who heard about the success of the large seer council army then went out of their way to collect one I have very little sympathy I'm afraid.

Kahadras

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 06:45
It's a mistake because one of the R&D guys at GW said that Ulthwe Guardians were a mistake. "More Guardians =/= Better Guardians" was the gist of it. I'm not really gonna argue with the guy who makes the rules.

As an Ulthwe player, I have to disagree with you. The existence of black guardians was actually rather balanced. As the idea wasn't more guardians = better guardians, but rather that Ulthwe has more psychers, far less aspect warriors, and thus needs to keep a standing army of guardians who get decently skilled in their combat specialty like Aspect Warriors.

In addition, if you play a straight up Ulthwe list, ie non-Strike Force, you're only allowed two Black Guardian squads, and then must be your compulsary troops choices, after that, any additional guardians you take are normal guardians after that. In addition, you can only take as many squads of Aspect Warriors as squads of Guardians you field. So if you only field the two compulsary Guardian units, you can only have two squads of Aspect Warriors.

With the Strike Force list, even though every unit of guardians became black guardians, it was still rather well balanced. Because, you could only take one squad of Aspect Warriors, other than Dark Reapers, which you could take of many of as you wanted. In addition, you couldn't take Falcons, Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms, Wraithlords, or Wraithguard, so you actually had very limited choices in what you could field for all that stuff with BS4, which came at a price increase for everything other than Defender Guardians. In addition, half your force had to start in reserve, regardless of the mission being played. Thus giving your opponent a better chance of destroying what starts out on the table before reinforcements arrive, or at least making his choice of what units to target easier. So really, the Ulthwe list was actually quite well balanced, except for the limitless Seer Council, which was an unfortunate mistake.

That is all I have to say, enjoy your day.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
09-08-2006, 07:18
The problem with black guardians was that they were freebies, the "disadvantage" of having to take more guardian squads for aspects just led to small 5-man kamikaze squads with flamers in the falcons. This led to a large amount of eldar armies (at least where I play) being painted in boring emo black to take advantage of the freebies, because it seems there was no real reason to play standard eldar provided you didn't hate guardians.

Just because Ulthwe aren't a no-brainer anymore doesn't make them screwed, I'm hoping I'll see more colourful eldar armies in the future.

NightHaunter86
09-08-2006, 08:08
I don't think Ulthwe is screwed...I just think that GW is changing the focus of the Eldar from armies with Guardians and Heavy Weapons Platforms, to a more Aspect focused list. Ulthwe will still be around but not in the same form as it is now. For all current Ulthwe players the changes may seem like you are getting screwed...but all we can do is wait and see what you get in the new 'dex.

-peace

Toppan
09-08-2006, 08:17
insert harlequin colorful joke here

RampagingRavener
09-08-2006, 10:24
For those people worried about their Black Gaurdians, you could always convert some regular Gaurdians to look sufficiantly "elite" and run them with the Dire Avenger stats, just hold back on giving them an Exarch. Its not really the same, they'll be more expensive and not get Weapon Platforms, but it might kinda fill the void left over, and still let you run any Black Gaurdians as more than just regular ones.

carl
09-08-2006, 11:52
@ those who say Black Guardians where a Fluff mistake. (Without trying to sound pompus), WRONG, they are STILL present in the Epic list for Ulthwe so they DO still exsist, GW just hasn't given any options for them. the reason is pretty obvious. all the Craftworld specific options (e.g. Seer Council, Spiritseers, Jetbikes as Troops e.t.c) are now availibile to evryone. thus they did not include Black Guardians becuase players would never take ordinary guardians if they did.

lord_blackfang
09-08-2006, 11:59
Someday soon Eldar players will just have to learn to accept changes and take the bad with the good. Just like everybody else who ever got an updated Codex.

On a side note, did anyone else notice that it's always just the players with a "cheap gimmick" army who complain about changes, while those with well-rounded lists are happy to see their army reworked?

Jedi152
09-08-2006, 12:03
Ah. The good old "OMGLOL!!!O Noes ... teh new Eldra are teh broken!!!!LOLOLOL!!!!". The staple of any new codex/armies book release.

**EDIT** Blackfang - please tell me your avatar does actually move and it's not just me. Please.

Venkh
09-08-2006, 12:16
With the Strike Force list, even though every unit of guardians became black guardians, it was still rather well balanced. Because, you could only take one squad of Aspect Warriors, other than Dark Reapers, which you could take of many of as you wanted. In addition, you couldn't take Falcons, Wave Serpents, Fire Prisms, Wraithlords, or Wraithguard, so you actually had very limited choices in what you could field for all that stuff with BS4

I see your point, but much of what you can field just got better.

Dark reapers are getting their 3+ saves back and the exarch is getting a completely heinious indirect fire option.

You will still be able to run a seer council and the new farseer is getting improved equipment in addition the new power,Doom, will make injuring your opponents far easier.

The heavy weapons are getting cheaper and the only one that gets a stat nerf is the starcannon (justified IMO) This improves platforms, vypers and walkers.

IMO theres more givething than taking away.

Master Jeridian
09-08-2006, 12:37
I'm trying to feel sympathy but it just ain't happening.

A slap in the face for taking a ridiculous sized Seer Council, rather than an army, and freebie BS 4 Guardians. Poetic justice if ever I saw it.

Black Guardians- Space Marine example, since everyone knows SM's. Would you consider it fair if two of my Tactical Squads had BS 5, as long as I only took one type of Elites unit?

The Ulthwe Codex was produced at a time when the Games Designers, foolishly, thought they could balance unit A, by restricting unit B. Rather than balance unit A with pts cost, etc.

So people just played armies with unit A for no disadvantage.

Ulthwe... balanced?

carl
09-08-2006, 13:02
A slap in the face for taking a ridiculous sized Seer Council, rather than an army

most Ulthwe players will admit this was wrong and they ARE NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SEER COUNCIL.


and freebie BS 4 Guardians.

what the heck are you on about, have you ever considered WHY they where given better guardians

As i have pointed out at least a dozen times already, the current Vanilla list does not work with mostly guardians, the guardians are too poor for it to do so. thus Ulthwe which lost it's easy access to aspects and had to use lots of guardians needed better guardians at less points for the list to be viable.

Ever heard of value within an army, yeah Iím sure you have, it's everyoneís favourite excuse for why guardians cost so much. Well in a normal army they get the support of aspects, making them more valuable. in an Ulthwe army aspects are scarce/non-existent, and thus guardians have much less support and are consequently less valuable per model. They didn't give them a points cut, instead they gave them better stats to composite. in an Ulthwe army guardians either have to be Cheaper or better than in any other army.


Black Guardians- Space Marine example, since everyone knows SM's. Would you consider it fair if two of my Tactical Squads had BS 5, as long as I only took one type of Elites unit?

No I wouldnít, but then thatís not a fair example at all.

Now if it was a case of this:

1. 1 War Council: 2-5 Captains and 3+ Veteran Sergeants
2. You cannot have more units of Veterans, Terminators, Assault Marines, or Devastator Squads than you have Tactical Squads, i.e. if you have 2 tac squads you may have 2 units of any type from the list above.
3. You must include at least 2 Tactical squads and these will have either +1WS or +1BS, your choice which.

THAT would be the SM version. now modify the War Council with something comparable new Seer Council Rules (No more than 10 Vet Sergeants and the Captains must have at least 50pt's of Wargear each, the Vet Sergeants must have at least 25pt's of Wargear each), and it's not exactly a bad deal.


The Ulthwe Codex was produced at a time when the Games Designers, foolishly, thought they could balance unit A, by restricting unit B. Rather than balance unit A with pts cost, etc.

So people just played armies with unit A for no disadvantage.

You are Cleary not a player of the Eldar and clearly fail to understand just how bad an army with almost no aspects and all guardians is. Without those Aspects, the current Vanilla list would be woefully underpowered. The 3 Wraithlords being the only real highlight. I admit that the seer council was abused, but almost everyone agrees that was wrong.

I am sorry for having to shout but I cannot seem to get the point across that without Aspects guardians really are terrible.

Most people see upset Ulthwe players and all anyone ever says to them is "you shouldnít take the seer council it's beardy" when what most of them are upset about is the loss of Black Guardians, which are an outright necessity for a successful and fluffy (Guardian Heavy in other words) Ulthwe List.

Venkh
09-08-2006, 14:29
Carl,

If i understand correctly, you agree that the huge seer council with ablative warlocks was ridiculous.

Does that mean that the only thing you really think you are missing out on is the Black Guardians? If so why dont you just use dire avenger rules for them?

This means that the only thing you will be missing out on will be the BS4 platforms. Hardly a game breaker, especially as the points values of the weapons are all decreasing. The new codex stops guardians being min/maxed and i see this as a good thing. If you ran the burny warlock squad (like me:cheese: ) or the 5 man platform squad you should have anticipated change.

I dont think you will have much to complain about after the codex release, you will probably find that the pro's will outweigh the cons.


You are Cleary not a player of the Eldar and clearly fail to understand just how bad an army with almost no aspects and all guardians is. Without those Aspects, the current Vanilla list would be woefully underpowered.

Clearly an army that consists of nothing but guardians is poor but thats not what the Ulthwe list consists of is it?

carl
09-08-2006, 14:42
I don't actually play Ulthwe, but I do get sick and tired of seeing people have a go at Ulthwe players who are genuinely upset over things like the seer council, which most people agree was wrong. I also get tiered of the constant sniping at Black Guardians by people who haven't thought about why they where like that.

I agree much can be done with avengers to represent Black Guardians, and i agree in their old form they could not be fitted into the current list, but i do understand why Ulthwe players are upset.

p.s My army is eithier Beil-Tan or Vannilia, depending on weather i feild one big squad of guardians or 2 small squads, i need some more guardians really, but i want to wait for the new codex to be released before adding.

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 16:06
A slap in the face for taking a ridiculous sized Seer Council, rather than an army, and freebie BS 4 Guardians. Poetic justice if ever I saw it.


I currently play Ulthwe Strike Force and never played the standard Ulthwe list

now let's see I'm getting a slap in the face for taking an oversized Seer Council? Hmm I field 2 Farseers and 3 Warlocks if I'm not fielding the Spear of Khaine instead, very oversized......:wtf:

Freebie guardians? Hmm I could swear I have a special "tactical withdrawal" rule specifically built (said Phil Kelly) in to counter the BS4 :rolleyes:

Ulthwe players know that the seer Council was abused, but a much reduced one is still available. The problem is that the fluff talks about a lack of aspect warriors and a standing force of guardians. I'm abandoning Ulthwe because I'd not feel I was representing Ulthwe by using aspect warriors.
Also I could still use guardians but the storm guardians haven't even got grenades now, making them a poor assault unit. The defenders are still too short ranged and will now just be used as ablative heavy weapon shields.

Theadium
09-08-2006, 16:55
Wait, no grenades for storm guardians? I just bought 8 storm guardians and made them anti tank with haywire grenades! It seems GW is just out to kill Ulthwe, because they are most easily thought of as cheesy. To this I say, I take a 5 man seer council, and 43 gaurdians, and I am now going to have to remake an army. For those of you that think the ulthwe are cheesy, I must ask. (This is not a blow at other Craftworld players, do not take it as an insult, Im just jogging the memory of other players playing some cheesy lists)

What about the Aliotoc? Ever play with them with a tyranid army? Most of your synapse are either pinned or come in through reserves, sure, BS 4 Guardians are still beardy you think.
What about the most hated Iyenden? 3 Wraithlords, 15 wraithguard, and 3 falcons? Of course not, BS 4 Guardians are WAY much beardier than that.

Biel Tan? Oh, the 30 Howling Banshees in 6 wave serpents with twinlinked starcannons and falcons with starcannons too is still remarkably less cheesy than BS 4 Guardians.

Oh, and Saim Haim, having 18 vypers that you CANNOT shoot down because of the Crystaline Targetting Matrix? No way, I know you still want to hate the Black Guardians.

So I ask you, what is wrong with the Ulthwe list? 2 BS 4 Guardian squads and a possible unkillable seer council of doom. However, I will tell you most Ulthwe players would not take such a big council.

So we must ask, why did GW take them out? I'll tell you exactly why, because everyone would use them. Every eldar list would feature two squads of them supported by every other advantage in the book. If GW took the time to figure out how to bypass this error, I would be much happier. But the fact that GW put the time into adding everything from the other craftworlds, they dont put the Black Guardians. I think Im just mad the fact that my entire army revolves around them.

Rant Over

Grand Master Raziel
09-08-2006, 17:15
@ those who say Black Guardians where a Fluff mistake. (Without trying to sound pompus), WRONG, they are STILL present in the Epic list for Ulthwe so they DO still exsist, GW just hasn't given any options for them. the reason is pretty obvious. all the Craftworld specific options (e.g. Seer Council, Spiritseers, Jetbikes as Troops e.t.c) are now availibile to evryone. thus they did not include Black Guardians becuase players would never take ordinary guardians if they did.

I don't think you can take what goes on in Epic as decisive evidence of what goes on in 40k fluff. Epic is a Specialist game, and so therefore doesn't receive nearly as much development attention as 40k does. Epic follows 40k rather than the other way around.

Dosadi
09-08-2006, 17:21
As a long time Ulthwie player I need add my 2 cents.

I'm pretty happy with what I've seen comming out of the new codex. Sure my BS 4 defenders are gone but I can still fortune them if I want. If I want to I can still field a fluffy Ulthwie list by limiting the number of aspects I take and take mostly guardian stuff. But I now have the option of fielding a list closer to what I had back in 2nd. edition (complete with harlequins). I'm much happier about this.

Anyone who expected the craftworld lists to survive in the new edition has not been paying attention to the design conventions the studio is working with now. Armies should be built from one codex with as many options avalable as the mechanics will allow without disrupting game balance.

Also, the EoT Codex was a campaign book. Those lists are not built to last. They are designed to represent a type of force that existed at a specific time in 40k history. All will eventually be replaced. The Cadians were the first to get the shaft out of that book (although not much changed) and now it's Ulthwie's turn. I have no doubt that the next Space Wolf and Chaos book will make the other list in EoT obsolete. Will you still be able to build the exact same army with these new revised lists? Don't count on it. The game is evolving, for better or for worse. You can either keep up or cry about it...nobody like a cry baby. :cries:

There is no reason you can't still use the USF or Craftworld list with your friends. You just can't use them in "Official" games. It's not like some CCG's where they ban all your old cards to get you to fork over tons of $$$ for the new versions. As far as I know a guardian model from 1995 is still a guardian.
Besides, who want to play the same army forever anyway? Changes mean new challenges, new oppertunities and most important...new models!:D

On another note:
I'm glad we didn't get a "build your own craftworld" trait system. It would have been too much like the Doctrines or Chapter Traits the Imperials get. Instead we get a very versatile list with the craftworld components built in. If you wanna play fluffy, you can build a list that best represents your craftowrld. If you wanna mix it up, go for it and stick 6 squads of jetbikes into your non-Saim Hain army. Personally, I can't wait to get some Pathfinders in my Ulthwie army! (2+ save in buildings...Dominating!)

Dosadi

Lyinar
09-08-2006, 17:33
What about the Aliotoc? Ever play with them with a tyranid army? Most of your synapse are either pinned or come in through reserves, sure, BS 4 Guardians are still beardy you think.
What about the most hated Iyenden? 3 Wraithlords, 15 wraithguard, and 3 falcons? Of course not, BS 4 Guardians are WAY much beardier than that.

Because of course Games Workshop is leaving THAT in...


Biel Tan? Oh, the 30 Howling Banshees in 6 wave serpents with twinlinked starcannons and falcons with starcannons too is still remarkably less cheesy than BS 4 Guardians.

Again, this is something that Games Workshop is KILLING.


Oh, and Saim Haim, having 18 vypers that you CANNOT shoot down because of the Crystaline Targetting Matrix? No way, I know you still want to hate the Black Guardians.

Yet again, the StarVyper horde is GONE.


So I ask you, what is wrong with the Ulthwe list? 2 BS 4 Guardian squads and a possible unkillable seer council of doom. However, I will tell you most Ulthwe players would not take such a big council.

So we must ask, why did GW take them out? I'll tell you exactly why, because everyone would use them. Every eldar list would feature two squads of them supported by every other advantage in the book. If GW took the time to figure out how to bypass this error, I would be much happier. But the fact that GW put the time into adding everything from the other craftworlds, they dont put the Black Guardians. I think Im just mad the fact that my entire army revolves around them.

Rant Over

I've refrained from posting on this thread until now, but this made me a bit angry.

Every single cheese list in the Craftworld Eldar codex is going to be, in just a few short months, DEAD.

No more Ranger Disruption Tables, no more Reaper Hordes, no more StarVyper Hordes, no more Seer Councils of DOOOOOM. What do you have in its place?

Biel-Tan: Hey, Dire Avengers are actually WORTH something, so you don't have to move all the other aspects to Troops to have a decent list!
Saim-Hann: Jetbikes are Troops instead of the player just being handed 6 FA slots and told "Have fun"!
Alaitoc: Rangers are Troops, as they always have been, and can be upgraded, even though they don't get disruption tables or any stupid crap like that!
Iyandend: Wraithguard can be Troops or Elites, and Warlocks can be upgraded to Spiritseers!
Ulthwé: Seer Councils are now LIMITED, even though the Farseers have been upgraded, and while you've lost the Black Guardians, you can still take Guardians, and you can actually take decent numbers of Aspect Warriors now!

Personally, I don't really see the problem in Ulthwé actually getting access to superior units. Gav Thorpe tried to ram Guardians down everyone's throats last edition, along with nerfing the everliving crap out of their guns.

Rork
09-08-2006, 18:57
It is a shame that Black Guardians are losing their upgrade. They are supposed to represent a professional army rather than the militia that "normal" guardians are supposed to be.

But let's be fair, that was the fringe benefit of the army list. It was free, but it was limited. Most of the time the guardians will only use their heavy weapon, which means they're only killing a couple of models more than a standard unit. The catapult's range means that the upgrade rarely "came into its own."

The things people did with the seer council was stupid. Mine never goes above six models in 1.5k, and I welcome the number of warlocks being capped , particularly if they have mandatory equipment instead of being an 11pt meatshield(unlike now). Only when people started taking seer councils of 20 models + did the army become "broken."

But hey, I look forward to having a codex where more than half of the units are useful. I'm heavily considering fire prisms, particularly as I don't think a single wraithlord (0-1 rumours and all) is good enough on his own.

I just hope all the "fringe" units that suit an ulthwé themed list are worth having (and I suspect they will be). If I keep with the boys in black, I still want aspect warriors to a minimum. We shall see, eh?

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 19:11
But hey, I look forward to having a codex where more than half of the units are useful. I'm heavily considering fire prisms, particularly as I don't think a single wraithlord (0-1 rumours and all) is good enough on his own.

there is no 0-1 on the wraithlord fear not

shabbadoo
09-08-2006, 19:19
Well when your unit of 20 folks with a WS5 I5 ASSAULT troops that used to need 3's to hit and took 4's to get hit back all of a sudden now need 4's to hit (when in either case they need 5's to wound)... it's GIANT blow.
60 attacks on a charge hitting 66% =40 hits = 13.33 wounds
same at 50% to hit = 30 hits = 10 wounds

that extra WS makes it likely that any MEQ's won't be hitting back. Yes you have a CHANCE that all ten will die with the WS4 but with my bent stats (i.e. bad luck) I'll take the buffer 3.333 extra models.

I dunno... just weakens an already fragile unit :(

Welcome to the world of Orks!!! At least you still have one more point of armor and 2 of Initiative, and fleet of foot. Oh, and even if the Orks do get the WAAAGH!, the Guardians still strike first, thus depleting the amount of return attacks, but the Orks probably won't charge because fleet of foot all but guarantees that to the Eldar. And, with all of their benefits, the Guardian costs 1 point LESS than the Ork. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

With the mandatory 1+ Dire Avenger choice pretty much being debunked as rumor at this point, it looks like full Guardian only lists are possbile. People ran them successfully before the Craftworld Eldar codex came out, and they'll run them successfully under the new codex.

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 20:21
I more than agree with everyone that the Seer Council was broken. That'll be fixed in the new Codex, got no issue with that.

Some of you complain about the Black Guardians because people ran 5 man squads of them with heavy weapons platforms. I can understand why you might be upset by that, cheap but very effective weaponry, especially with starcannons. However, that was a problem with Guardian Defenders in general in 3rd Edition, not a problem with Black Guardians in General. A problem which is going to be fixed in the new codex by giving Guardian squads a 10 man minimum strength. Yes, the points cost for their weapon platforms might be going down across the board, but Starcannons will be loosing a shot, and the other Eldar Heavy Weapons seem like they are going to become quite useful, so that deals with the starcannon horde issue as well, since other weapons may tempt eldar players with their lower points cost and comparably decent stats against the Starcannon.

Given all of this, the fact that the starcannon won't be as deadly, guardian squads have to be 10+ in size, that Warlocks will also cost more, and all that sort of stuff, I don't think bringing Black Guardians forward into 4th Edition would be all that broken, given that most of the problems with them were really problems with the unit they were built from, and those problems have been addressed. Hell, I wouldn't object if I had to spend points to upgrade squads to Black Guardians, but I'd like to still have them around, as they were a very cool part of the Ulthwe list, and in the big picture not all that broken at all.

carl
09-08-2006, 20:22
I've refrained from posting on this thread until now, but this made me a bit angry.

Every single cheese list in the Craftworld Eldar codex is going to be, in just a few short months, DEAD.

And the BS 4 Guardian was never cheese. that is the point myself plus many Ulthwe players are trying to get across.


Biel-Tan: Hey, Dire Avengers are actually WORTH something, so you don't have to move all the other aspects to Troops to have a decent list.

The entire point with Beil-Tan was their ability to take something other than DA's as troops aspects. it could be abused and this did need to change. but the solution has robbed them of nearly all their character. The Court of the Young King has gone as well, another big thing gone.


Saim-Hann: Jetbikes are Troops instead of the player just being handed 6 FA slots and told "Have fun"!

I agree the 6 squadrons of Vypers are wrong, but it is likely that they would have more of them, likewise what about Wild Riders? Again they've destroyed the character almost completely.


Alaitoc: Rangers are Troops, as they always have been, and can be upgraded, even though they don't get disruption tables or any stupid crap like that!

BUT the Disruption Table made sense, again it needed a tone down.


Iyandend: Wraithguard can be Troops or Elites, and Warlocks can be upgraded to Spiritseers!

And what was ever wrong with this?


Ulthwe: Seer Councils are now LIMITED, even though the Farseers have been upgraded, and while you've lost the Black Guardians, you can still take Guardians, and you can actually take decent numbers of Aspect Warriors now!

DO YOU EVEN PLAY ELDAR AT ALL? The entire point about Ulthwe is that they DON'T include decent numbers of aspects.


All right my patience has completely worn out with that post. Yes there where a lot of abuse-able rules in the Craftworlds codex. BUT they actually represented the Craftworlds. The new rules do not for 2 very basic reasons.

1. The old lists had a lot of extra units and rules, these helped define the Craftworld from the vanilla type.

2. The limitations on what you could not have. I don't like (from a game play perspective) the Craftworld lists for this reason. However, they did add a lot of character.

Points 1 and 2 where tied together. Take away the limitations and you have to take away the special rules I agree, but in doing so you destroy the armies character. without them all you have is the option to take an army like that, and if you artificially limit yourself you can produce lists not too far off, thatís why I haven't been too upset until now.

Frankly, your post has changed that. I actually started to look and realise just how many rules and units have gone, and in the end I realised Ulthwe actually got off light (the seer council is still there). also your comment about aspects in Ulthwe made me relies that many of these fluffy builds simply won't be effective armies because the entire list is balanced around the idea of lots of aspects.

Moreover, that is the real killer, a number of these Craftworlds are not supposed to have large numbers of ordinary guardians (Ulthwe aside) or large numbers of aspects. Take these away with the new codex and the lists simply will not work. At all. The unitís costs and special rules just are not up to it.

And yes, I am shouting mad right now.

Malempo
09-08-2006, 20:25
I play Ulthwe and I don't see how Ulthwe got screwed anymore than other Craftworld.

Biel-Tan lose the Court of the Young King
Iyanden lose Troops Wraithlord
Saim Hann lose the Fast Attck = troop and Wyld Riders
Alaitoc lose disruption table

Amazingly none of the players using those craftworld complains. This makes me a little bit ashamed to be identified with all the whining because I play ulthwe.

The BS 4 guardians were free, the limitation was a joke.

Ulthwe still retains the Seer Council which is already amazing expecially with Doom.

The new codex rumours are incredible and more and more I think I will try a swordwind Biel-Tan.

carl
09-08-2006, 20:51
@ Malepo

The reason no one else is complaining is no one else used the other stuff much (except Iyanden and Alaitoc who agree the rules where a bit much really). The thing is the other Craftworlds don't have anything much to complain about other than Beil-Tan with only DA's as troops (and there has been more than a few people desperately trying to disprove it) as most of them never used the stuff enough to care.

I'm very background orientated and feel most of the stuff is important.

As for epic not mattering. Get lost. The Swordwind book has been used as a big background source by the devs for the new codex Eldar, they admitted as much themselves some months ago. And the Ulthwe epic list is fairly recent so it should represent the current view on Ulthwe properly. likewise much of the Titan and Superheavy Vehicle stuff comes from it.

Lyinar
09-08-2006, 21:06
Well, guess what, my Ulthwé army had two aspect warrior squads and two squads of Black Guardians, and my Seer Council fit inside a Falcon. And I was worried to begin with when they said that there wouldn't be any Craftworld-specific rules. I got over that and decided to look on it as an opportunity to finally get to use some of the really cool units that I had left out of my original list due to the limitations of the Ulthwé army list. Maybe I'm a bit more sanguine about the changes because of my Mecha-Speed-Serpents-of-Fury! list that didn't rely on BS4 Starcannons with 20 wounds or tying up enemies in close combat with a horde of Black Storm Guardians.

To my knowledge, Ulthwé's "point" was NOT that it relied heavily on slightly-improved versions of the absolutely suckiest unit in the entire Gods-damned Eldar codex, but that they relied on their PSYKERS.

Like I've said before, the Black Guardians are professional soldiers. They don't have "day jobs" to go back to when they're done getting shot at. Why, in a culture like that of the Eldar, would they NOT go that single extra step to become Aspect Warriors? Hell, Storm Guardians are described as Guardians who have retired from close-combat Aspects and become militia again... Why would they even exist in a standing army?

The way I see it, if you want to play a fluffy Ulthwé force, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from taking six guardian squads as troops and two Seer Councils and NOTHING ELSE.

For crazy bastards like me who actually want to do things differently, there is now nothing demanding I take that approach. With the size of 40k battles, i.e., small skirmishes, you can EASILY justify that, say, an Aspect-heavy Ulthwé force is one that has a very specific objective that was worth tasking that many Aspect Warriors to. Now, an Ulthwé force larger than a Combat Patrol that has an Autarch and no Farseers? THAT is unfluffy.

The Eldar Codex was broken when it was released, and it got made even worse when 4th edition hit. Craftworld Eldar was a half-assed attempt to fix a handful of those problems, and since it appears to have barely been play-tested (really, how the HELL did it not occur to anyone that not having a fixed limit on the size of a Seer Council would be horribly abused?), it only caused FAR more problems than it actually fixed.

C:CE didn't accurately represent the armies it had within it, it painted caricatures of them and slapped often-dubious special rules and new units onto those caricatures.

As to the Alaitoc Disruption Table? It is, if you will, the primal cheese in whose image all other cheese was created.

And I only mentioned Iyanden because I didn't want them to feel left out. Anyone who pours the massive amounts of money and time and unimaginable amounts of effort into making and painting an all-metal army using the single most evil colour that Citadel Paints makes deserves what little cheese that can be rung out of having three Wraithlords in one army without taking up Heavy Support slots.

Malempo
09-08-2006, 21:39
As to the Alaitoc Disruption Table? It is, if you will, the primal cheese in whose image all other cheese was created.

And I only mentioned Iyanden because I didn't want them to feel left out. Anyone who pours the massive amounts of money and time and unimaginable amounts of effort into making and painting an all-metal army using the single most evil colour that Citadel Paints makes deserves what little cheese that can be rung out of having three Wraithlords in one army without taking up Heavy Support slots.

That is one of the best and acurate descriptions of the problems with CE codex.

Brimstone did a very good summary of how to make a fluffy craftworld list using the new dex in the Rumour Roundup.

I think the developpers did a great job to make the new codex balanced and interesting to play for all craftworld while avoiding open brokeness like we seen in the past.

The seer council was not intented to be a uber close combat unit but a unit of psykers.

I think you can still make a very fluffy Ulthwe list even without BS 4 guardians. Just use War Walkers squad and Heavy Weapon platforms in Heavy Support, guardians as troops and you will have a guardians heavy army. Take two Seer council (if possible) and guide, fortune, doom everything in sight.

Storm Guardians are still a viable option, especially if you Fortune them and Doom the ennemy.

Ulthwe was never about having super guardians but instead a lot of guardians backed by strong psykers.

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 21:52
Like I've said before, the Black Guardians are professional soldiers. They don't have "day jobs" to go back to when they're done getting shot at. Why, in a culture like that of the Eldar, would they NOT go that single extra step to become Aspect Warriors? Hell, Storm Guardians are described as Guardians who have retired from close-combat Aspects and become militia again... Why would they even exist in a standing army?
.

because if they stayed on the path of the warrior that long they'd become exarchs.
I think it's a shame the devs didn't put in a tiny amount of restriction and flavour for each craftworld
eg Iyanden MUST take 1+ troops Wraithguard. Of course they CAN but we could see aspect heavy Iyanden armies in future so why not put in the requirement?
A simple option for Ulthwe to pay extra for BS4 guardians OR to equip them with Dire Catapults (since there is a lack of aspects)

Anyway my mind is made up and I'm painting the black of my army blue to use Alaitoc.

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 21:59
I play Ulthwe and I don't see how Ulthwe got screwed anymore than other Craftworld.

Biel-Tan lose the Court of the Young King

As many Biel-Tan players had said over the years, or at least from what I've heard, it wasn't that great, or widely used. I could be wrong, but that's my impression of the unit, so that's not much of a loss.

In place of all that, they'll be able to field up to six useful squads of Dire Avengers, an Autarch (and it's rumored based on how he's kitted out that certain Aspects will become troops), a Seer Council if they want one, up to three squads in any combination of Banshees, Scorpions, or Fire Dragons as Elites. Up to three squads in any combination of Shining Spears (who are going down in points and becoming useful), Swooping Hawks (who are also becoming useful as something other than an exarch delivery system), or Warp Spiders as Fast Attack. Up to three squads of Dark Reapers (with an improved save and indirect fire) as Heavy Support. Thus allowing one to field an all aspect army, which is well within the lines of the Biel-Tan fluff.


Iyanden lose Troops Wraithlord

This is true, but then again, this also means they lose the up to three Wraithlords, up to thirty Wraithguard w/ Warlocks, up to three Falcons, up to three Elites, up to three Fast Attack and a Farseer army list. A list that many people might call cheesy. Instead, they'll be able to field something like a Seer Council, an Autarch, up to three squads of Elites, up to six squads of Wraithguard (who are getting slightly better, can all take Warlocks as they are no longer detatched from the Farseer's retinue but are instead a squad upgrade, and are maybe going down in cost?) as troops, up to three squads of whatever Fast Attack they want, and up to three Wraithlords as Heavy Support, at the cost of the other Heavy Support choices. The fluffiness of the Iyanden Army survives in tact, it's just made less cheesy. Especially since they concievably won't be losing Spiritseers, as that will be an upgrade for Warlocks. Though it may not be, but with the change to how Warlocks work when attached to squads, that also isn't much of a loss.


Saim Hann lose the Fast Attck = troop and Wyld Riders

Well, as jetbikes are moving to Troops, and going down in cost, they can still field an all vehicle army, it just won't be as cheesy. As for the Wyld Riders, while they may be dissappearing, they can be approximated. Mount an Autarch on a Jetbike. If he's allowed a retinue, make it a squad of Shining Spears, HQ choice mounted on Jetbikes without psychic powers, and concievably better armed than the old Wyld Riders as they'll all have Laser Lances, rather than CCWs and Pistols with a single power weapon.


Alaitoc lose disruption table

This is true, and there's really no way to even approximate it. But at least they can still take Pathfinders, and exclusively Rangers as Troops Choices. In addition, it's never been stated that upgrading a Ranger squad to a Pathfinder squad causes them to count as an Elite unit. So it may be Alaitoc players are only allowed to take up to 6 Ranger/Pathfinder units, which may seem like a major loss. However, with the loss of the Disruption table, taking an army consisting only of Pathfinders and Rangers is no longer as good an option as it was. Making it so upgrading Rangers to Pathfinders doesn't fill up an Elites slot means Alaitoc players can still field up to three standard Elite units, along with their Rangers and Pathfinders. And considering that the Rangers Pathfinders all fall in the Troops slots (conceivably at least) the feel of an army dominated by Rangers is still retained, but the cheesy part is gone, without it necessarily being made ineffective.


Amazingly none of the players using those craftworld complains.

Looks to me like they might not have any real reason to complain. All the parts of their lists that are considered cheesy are dissappearing, without the feel of their list being destroyed.


The BS 4 guardians were free, the limitation was a joke.

The limitation when it came to Aspect Warriors may have seemed like a joke, but it wasn't really. With a Standard Ulthwe List from the Craftworld Eldar Codex, you could only ever have two units total of Black Guardians, and they had to be your compulsary Troops choices, if those were all the Guardians you took, you could only take two squads of Aspect Warriors. If you took more squads of Guardians, they got the normal Guardian stat-line, and for each additional squad you took you could take another squad of Aspect Warriors, sort of like the Wraithguard-Wraithlord relationship in the Iyanden list.

When it came to the Ulthwe Strike Force list let's list all the units and see what you could take.

HQ
0-1 Seer Council
0-1 Spear of Khaine
0 Waveserpents

Elites (You could only have one squad of Aspect Warriors total for your army, excluding Dark Reapers)
0-1 Howling Banshees Squads
0-1 Striking Scorpions Squads
0-1 Dire Avengers
0-1 Fire Dragons Squads
0-3 Rangers
0 Wraithguard Squads
0 Waveserpents

Troops (That 0-1 limit of Aspect Warrior Squads per your entire army still apply to any Aspect Warriors in this section)
0-6 Black Guardian Defender Squads (Subject to Tactical Withdraw, cannot regroup after breaking)
0-6 Black Guardian Storm Squads (Subject to Tactical Withdraw, cannot regroup after breaking)
0 Waveserpents

Fast Attack (That 0-1 limit of Aspect Warrior Squads per your entire army still apply to any Aspect Warriors in this section)
0-1 Swooping Hawks Squads
0-3 Guardian Jetbike Squadrons (May have gotten a boost to their ballistic skill, but I can't remember. If they did get it, it came at a points increase. If they didn't, they stayed the same price with the same profile from Codex: Eldar)
0-3 Vyper Squadrons (Got BS4, but also got a base cost increase)

Heavy Support
0 Falcons
0 Fire Prisms
0 Wraithlords
0-3 War Walker Squadrons (Got BS4, but also got a base cost increase)
0-3 Dark Reaper Squads (Dark Reapers do not count towards the Aspect Warrior limit)
0-3 Support Weapon Platforms

So pretty much, the most effective units in the Eldar Codex, the Falcon, Wave Serpent, and Wraithlord are unavailable to you. While you can take as many Dark Reaper squads as you want, if you take a Swooping Hawks Squad that's the only squad you can take, and you can field one less Vyper Squadron, and you can't field any other Aspect Warriors, other than Dark Reapers.

You field a squad of Banshees that's the only Aspect Warrior unit you can field, period. You can then take up to two squads of Rangers though, to flesh out your Elite Section on the FoC. Same goes for Scorpions, Fire Dragons, and Dire Avengers.

Fielding lots of Dark Reapers means less War Walkers. Of course, while the War Walkers are BS4, they cost more points, and are just as fragile as before. Though they do unload a tremendous amount of fire power.

In addition, half of your army always starts in reserve, regardless of the mission being played. Also, if you choose to take a Wraithgate, while your reserve units will enter the board from wherever the Wraithgate is located on the battle field, they won't enter play until the Wraithgate is opened, and once opened it can't be moved. If the Ulthwe Player waits too long to open the Wraithgate and you kill the character with it, the rest of his army never arrives.

But basically the whole point of all of this, is that the restrictions on the Ulthwe list aren't a joke. The fact that people can field 5 man squads of Guardians, which then allows them to field more squads of Aspect Warriors in the Standard Ulthwe list, isn't a problem with Black Guardians, it's a problem with Guardians in general, and is a problem that is going to be address in the new codex, so it's not longer a problem. If an opponent fielded more than two Black Guardian squads against you with Standard Ulthwe, he was cheating. So that's not really a problem with the Black Guardians either, but rather the player.


Ulthwe still retains the Seer Council which is already amazing expecially with Doom.

Yup, but then every other army can also take the Seer Council. And of course, the Seer Council has now had it's size issue adjusted. Okay, great, I can still field a Seer Council. But a Seer Council does not an Ulthwe Army make. An army based in Guardians, with few Aspect Warriors, lead by a Seer Council an Ulthwe Army makes. Now, tell me, why should I field a Guardian Heavy army in 4th Edition, with the min size of Guardian Squads going up, and them not getting any sort of stat or range boost, when the Guardians will be points that I can't spend on all the other improved Aspect Warrior units. What is there to keep me from fielding an Aspect Heavy army, considering that all the Aspects are going to be kick ass? Yes, I can count Dire Avengers as Black Guardian Defenders, but what about Black Storm Guardians, my favorite unit in the Ulthwe list? Seems to me like the feel of the Ulthwe list won't really be reproducable in the new dex, unlike with all the other craftworlds.

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 22:04
Just pointing out some errors in your USF listing

Dire Avengers and Rangers are elite

no access to warp spiders or shining spears

Support Weapons can be taken

Jetbikes are BS4 but subject to tactical withdrawal

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 22:06
Thank you, I'll edit that right now. I lost my copy of C:EoT a while ago and can't remember exactly everything perfectly. But if those were the only errors I made, I think I did pretty well.

Deadite
09-08-2006, 22:08
I play Ulthwe and I don't see how Ulthwe got screwed anymore than other Craftworld.

Biel-Tan lose the Court of the Young King
Iyanden lose Troops Wraithlord
Saim Hann lose the Fast Attck = troop and Wyld Riders
Alaitoc lose disruption table

Amazingly none of the players using those craftworld complains.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I haven't seen a single complaint yet from any of the other craftworld players. I personally play Alaitoc and used the disruption table regularly, I have no problem letting it go.

Ulthwe players are quickly getting a bad rep as being Ulthwaaaaaaaah :cries: players.

Their "character" is not gone, just adjusted. The theme is still present. More choices have become viable.
But hey, I guess Ulthwe are the seers of doom and must act accordingly. The sky is falling, the world is coming to an end and all that. Sell your mini's cheap and walk away. :evilgrin:

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 22:14
No my complaint is the flavour is being lost. We can now have Iyanden armies full of living people.
Biel Tan seer councils
Alaitoc wild riders

I just cannot understand the rationale for not protecting the flavour of the 5 craftworlds when the bloody marines get 5 extra codices! :wtf:

I am not going to continue with an Ulthwe army because a) I use the USF and fear it'll be gone anyway and b) I'm not going to field an aspect heavy Ulthwe army it wouldn't be right

Ravening Wh0re
09-08-2006, 22:17
I'm quite happy with the way things are working out. It doesn't Affect my strike force too much; with a little rejigging.

However, I'm a little concerned about Guardians having to take a weapons platform. :(
I have 2 units of 16 with no upgrades who run around and give my enemies a faceful of shuriken. With a platform they aren't anywhere near as fast and that saddens me.

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:18
Christ on a bike. You can still play Ulthwe, it just takes some restraint in your choices. I can still play Saim hann by taking jetbikes as troops but if i choke the rest of my list with full strength wraithguard squads im not going to have a particularly saim hann feeling list am i?

The Seer Council was the identifying factor in an ulthwe list...That and a lower than usual number of aspect warriors.The guardians thing is incidental.Players of Biel Tan and Saim hann etc lists arent realistically going to be buying seer councils any more when there are autarchs available to fill the tactical niche,phoenix lords not requiring of opponents consent,Avatars and beefed single farseer options..So the Ulthwe council is STILL the identifying face of that particular craftworld. Just because something isnt implicitly encouraged in the list via rules or points values doesnt mean that it cant [and shouldnt] be done.

Simply exercise a little restraint and you can still play an Ulthwe list. For chrissakes, you'd be featuring a minimum of 20 black painted guardians, its not like guardians have been knocked on the head is it.How many other lists are going to be running 20 odd guardians now that better rangers,dire avengers,jetbikes etc choices are available? They sure wont be using guardians as a core of their army if its a list revolving around snipers or aspect warriors or wraithguard. Tankhunting stormguardians i can almost sympathise with but IMO this was another cheap tactic, they were better at it than the supposed heavy assault masters the fire dragons and scorpions. The very fact you could get ws5 black guardians was insane...If normal guardians could be made this good on the battlefield why even bother [in game terms but also in background terms] having aspect shrines in the first place?

Dire Avengers as another troops choice [since they are supposed to be the most common aspects i dont see how anyone can complain if these turn up] and then take your pick of Guardian jetbikes,Vehicles,support platforms before topping up with an elites choice. Sounds like a characterful army list to me, especially when those fortuned,guided,doom-assisted guardians unleash their firepower. The fact they have a heavyweapon birth and a decent warlock option added on just adds to the squad overall. We're not talking about starcannons anymore but proper squad support weapons like missile launchers, scatterlasers, cheap shuriken cannons and so on.

MUCH more interesting than a slightly naff Xtreme Guardianz list. Possibly enough to tempt me into actually playing one.

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 22:20
I think this hits the nail on the head. I haven't seen a single complaint yet from any of the other craftworld players. I personally play Alaitoc and used the disruption table regularly, I have no problem letting it go.

You have no problem letting go of the part of your list that seems unbalanced. Just like I have no problem of saying goodbye to a limitless Seer Councils, or 5 man Guardian squads, the parts of my list that were unbalanced. By the way, I don't think my Seer Council has ever really gone above six models total, unless you want to count all the Warlocks that got attached to Guardian Squads as still being part of the Council.


Ulthwe players are quickly getting a bad rep as being Ulthwaaaaaaaah :cries: players.

If you say so. But how would you feel, if in addition to losing the Disruption table, you also lost the ability to field Path Finders? As that's pretty much what the loss of Black Guardians is akin to for Alaitoc. A unit that isn't really broken, but very characterful for the army. If they gave an option such as "for X number of points per model, you may upgrade the BS of Defender Guardians by one, or the WS of Storm Guardians by one." Which is pretty much the exact same mechanic they're doing to keep Pathfinders around. I'd happily pay for the upgrade to Black Guardians in 4th Edition, but I'm not really getting that option am I? Do I care that the Seer Council is going to have a cap on it? No, I welcome that change. Do I care that Guardians are now 10 men minimum? No, I also welcome that change. Do I care that Black Guardians are dissappearing from the game completely? Yes, that's the only thing I'm upset about, I'm not all about the Psychers of Doom.

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 22:23
Christ on a bike. You can still play Ulthwe, it just takes some restraint in your choices. I can still play Saim hann by taking jetbikes as troops but if i choke the rest of my list with full strength wraithguard squads im not going to have a particularly saim hann feeling list am i?

Hence my point why not enforce the restraint.


The Seer Council was the identifying factor in an ulthwe list...That and a lower than usual number of aspect warriors.The guardians thing is incidental.Players of Biel Tan and Saim hann etc lists arent realistically going to be buying seer councils any more when there are autarchs available to fill the tactical niche,

I'm glad you're so certain on that because I can certainly see it happening...

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:24
I'm quite happy with the way things are working out. It doesn't Affect my strike force too much; with a little rejigging.

However, I'm a little concerned about Guardians having to take a weapons platform. :(
I have 2 units of 16 with no upgrades who run around and give my enemies a faceful of shuriken. With a platform they aren't anywhere near as fast and that saddens me.

I may be wrong but you might be able to give this squad flamers or if you're really hot on fielding them, just count them as dire avengers. A lot of players have a silly dislike of the words "Counts as..." when it actually opens up a big field of modelling and theming choices.

carl
09-08-2006, 22:24
To my knowledge, Ulthweís "point" was NOT that it relied heavily on slightly-improved versions of the absolutely suckiest unit in the entire Gods-damned Eldar codex, but that they relied on their PSYKERS.

I never said it did not rely on Psyker (although I do realise I accidentally implied otherwise). Rather it was not supposed to have aspects and got a rule to represent that, it then got the Black Guardians added in to balance that out a littlie.


Like I've said before, the Black Guardians are professional soldiers. They don't have "day jobs" to go back to when they're done getting shot at. Why, in a culture like that of the Eldar, would they NOT go that single extra step to become Aspect Warriors? Hell, Storm Guardians are described as Guardians who have retired from close-combat Aspects and become militia again... Why would they even exist in a standing army?

I agree that seemed strange. However, with the totally fluffy restrictions on aspects, the guardians HAD to get better to make the army viable. The Seer Council just was not good enough on its own.


For crazy bastards like me who actually want to do things differently, there is now nothing demanding I take that approach. With the size of 40k battles, i.e., small skirmishes, you can EASILY justify that, say, an Aspect-heavy Ulthwe force is one that has a very specific objective that was worth tasking that many Aspect Warriors to.

The thing is an army that includes lots of aspect is not Ulthwe; I do not care if it can be justified. The point about a genuinely fluffy Ulthwe force is that it DOSEN'T include a lot of aspects. and if you came to the table and said "this is my Ulthwe force, it has all aspects because it represents a skirmish force", I wouldnít ever acknowledge it as an Ulthwe force, not because Iím a prat or anything, just because even in 40k a force trying to represent a specific group should stick to that groups background. Not use littlie loopholes to get around it.


The Eldar Codex was broken when it was released, and it got made even worse when 4th edition hit. Craftworld Eldar was a half-assed attempt to fix a handful of those problems, and since it appears to have barely been play-tested (really, how the HELL did it not occur to anyone that not having a fixed limit on the size of a Seer Council would be horribly abused?), it only caused FAR more problems than it actually fixed.

I agree it was horribly abusable. but it had a lot of good ideas that VERY accurately represented the forces, the problem was some where made more powerful than they actually should have been, and others where just not well done (allowing more than 3 of any type of aspect in Beil-Tan for example). A simple 0-3 limit on all aspect in a Beil-Tan list would have fixed quite a few problems.


C:CE didn't accurately represent the armies it had within it, it painted caricatures of them and slapped often-dubious special rules and new units onto those caricatures.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, yes some things where poor representations of things, but they where good attempts that just where not properly balanced and could be used in ways they where not meant to be used in.


As to the Alaitoc Disruption Table? It is, if you will, the primal cheese in whose image all other cheese was created.

I agree it was wrong, it should have insisted on a ful squad to qualify for the roll. as written it was quite poor.


And I only mentioned Iyanden because I didn't want them to feel left out. Anyone who pours the massive amounts of money and time and unimaginable amounts of effort into making and painting an all-metal army using the single most evil colour that Citadel Paints makes deserves what little cheese that can be rung out of having three Wraithlords in one army without taking up Heavy Support slots.

Fair enough.

To be honest I am upset because the old lists could have been fitted in the back of the Eldar Book. By all means, leave the Vanilla list as the next dex has it. But include specific lists with changes to balance things out.

Iyanden, no real problem here
Ranger Disruption, limit it to full squads only and insist that the 2 extra squads are full size
Beil-Tan no more than 3 of any one aspect warrior type and allow aspect to be taken either as troops or their normal slot
Sahim-Han, move Vypers to Troops
Ulthwe limit the seer council size

Okay those suggestions do not fix everything but they show the way to go. There was no good reason for not doing this except laziness. None of the proposals by Brimm accurately represent any of the Craftworlds, just because you have to include aspects in them all to get a competitive list. You should not have to (except Beil-Tan of course). The other 4 are all about not having a lot of aspects and letting other units do the work in their place. As far as I can see none of the Craftworld specific units can work on their own any more, like they used to. It was the special rules and extra units that actually made it viable to run the army that way. Without them, the army loses a lot of character and is nearly unplayable.

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:29
Hence my point why not enforce the restraint.


Because this is a GAME. I dont go to the local park for a kickabout and expect there to be a referee there making sure our every move conforms to FIFA and the FA's laws on how the game is meant to be played.

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 22:30
Because this is a GAME. I dont go to the local park for a kickabout and expect there to be a referee there making sure our every move conforms to FIFA and the FA's laws on how the game is meant to be played.


no but you would expect black templars to not have librarians so not the best analogy now is it?

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 22:33
Because this is a GAME. I dont go to the local park for a kickabout and expect there to be a referee there making sure our every move conforms to FIFA and the FA's laws on how the game is meant to be played.

But that was exactly the problem with the Craftworld Eldar lists. The developers didn't meant for Saim-Hamm armies to field 6 Vyper Squadrons, they didn't mean for Ulthwe players to field 20+ man Seer Councils and min-maxed Guardian Defender Squads, they didn't mean for Biel-Tan players to load up on one Aspect Type. I can't exactly find an excuse for the Alaitoc or Iyanden lists though, but I think that really comes down to the fact that they still expected players to vary their choices of additional units for the army. They forgot to consider that due to how the rules for the units in the normal codex were written, Eldar players would only bother taking certain units, as those were the only really useful ones.

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:33
I'm glad you're so certain on that because I can certainly see it happening...

So good for them. More points on seer council is less points on wraithguards or aspect warriors or whatever. its less points on Avatars,fire prisms,Autarchs. if a Biel Tan player is willing to invest a couple of hundred points into such a unit which isnt adding as much to the army as extra aspect squads or transports would then bully for them, they're obviously playing it for the fun

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:35
no but you would expect black templars to not have librarians so not the best analogy now is it?

Black templars have their own codex and dont have access to librarians do they. Next question?

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 22:35
So good for them. More points on seer council is less points on wraithguards or aspect warriors or whatever. its less points on Avatars,fire prisms,Autarchs. if a Biel Tan player is willing to invest a couple of hundred points into such a unit which isnt adding as much to the army as extra aspect squads or transports would then bully for them, they're obviously playing it for the fun

so you're as good as confirming that Ulthwe players will likewise take aspect warriors as more effective for the points than a seer council.....



Black templars have their own codex and dont have access to librarians do they. Next question?

because it is ENFORCED. likewise the traits for SMs that is why you don't see tank heavy Raven guard.

BTW you should edit your post rather than double post, the mods hate that

Rork
09-08-2006, 22:38
Biel-Tan lose the Court of the Young King
Iyanden lose Troops Wraithlord
Saim Hann lose the Fast Attck = troop and Wyld Riders
Alaitoc lose disruption table

Amazingly none of the players using those craftworld complains. This makes me a little bit ashamed to be identified with all the whining because I play ulthwe.


Let's be fair here, the CotYK was an awful unit. An expensive unit of slow, 1W T3 models? It was never that useful.

Iyanden never really gained much from wraithlords as troops since you could only have three at most (ironically it was more restrictive than a normal army list).

I think Saim Hann lose a fair bit of character. I always quite like the look of the chief and his kinsmen. But maybe a bike-riding autarch will go some way to sorting that out.

Alaitoc needed sorting. We all know it was that bad ;).

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:40
But that was exactly the problem with the Craftworld Eldar lists. The developers didn't meant for Saim-Hamm armies to field 6 Vyper Squadrons, they didn't mean for Ulthwe players to field 20+ man Seer Councils and min-maxed Guardian Defender Squads, they didn't mean for Biel-Tan players to load up on one Aspect Type. I can't exactly find an excuse for the Alaitoc or Iyanden lists though, but I think that really comes down to the fact that they still expected players to vary their choices of additional units for the army. They forgot to consider that due to how the rules for the units in the normal codex were written, Eldar players would only bother taking certain units, as those were the only really useful ones.

Which is partly why they scrapped them, along with the fact its two books to carry around/keep in print. The main reason is the one touched on in your last sentence. So now i want to take guardians, i must have some special rules along with it or i wont possibly touch them? No thankyou, i have a brain, i like to use it, i dont need to go along with what everyone else thinks, and who knows, if i win with my "Crappy new ulthwe" i might just have proved a point.

carl
09-08-2006, 22:44
As i've said though they could have included the lists in the back with the extra units/rules and a bit of rebalancing to cut the abuse.

OR better yet give each craftworld it's own codex like they did for their favoured sons SM.

This fuels a big part of it, SM got the forced limitations when taking ceartin chapters. Why don't eldar get them when taking ceartin craftworlds. Why do some SM chapters get their own codex and not some Craftworlds. Do i need to go on?

Corlock Striker
09-08-2006, 22:45
Which is partly why they scrapped them, along with the fact its two books to carry around/keep in print. The main reason is the one touched on in your last sentence. So now i want to take guardians, i must have some special rules along with it or i wont possibly touch them? No thankyou, i have a brain, i like to use it, i dont need to go along with what everyone else thinks, and who knows, if i win with my "Crappy new ulthwe" i might just have proved a point.

Indeed, but then again, if Pathfinders are still going to be a valid unit, why can't Black Guardians also be a valid unit, considering that they're concept wasn't actually broken, but rather the rules for the basic guardians were?

gitburna
09-08-2006, 22:48
so you're as good as confirming that Ulthwe players will likewise take aspect warriors as more effective for the points than a seer council.....


Im not "As good as confirming" anything. I paint a bunch of wraithguard and wraithlords red and stick a saimhann symbol on them, i havent miraculously made them into a wildrider army. Lists are defined by the units you pick not by the colour the troops are painted. Theres NO NEED WHATSOEVER for GW to enforce on us what troops must be taken here at all when the list has provided a flexible way for all the major craftworld traits to be represented. If fly by night faddy gamers want to stop fielding ulthwe armies then its fine by me especially when theres plenty of ways it can be done.

Sarigar
09-08-2006, 22:49
It's not all doom and gloom. If the new Eldar Codex is like any other past codex GW has ever done, it'll take about 15 minutes of reading to figure out the next hot (broken) army build.

emperorpenguin
09-08-2006, 23:00
Im not "As good as confirming" anything. I paint a bunch of wraithguard and wraithlords red and stick a saimhann symbol on them, i havent miraculously made them into a wildrider army. Lists are defined by the units you pick not by the colour the troops are painted. Theres NO NEED WHATSOEVER for GW to enforce on us what troops must be taken here at all when the list has provided a flexible way for all the major craftworld traits to be represented. If fly by night faddy gamers want to stop fielding ulthwe armies then its fine by me especially when theres plenty of ways it can be done.


you said
More points on seer council is less points on wraithguards or aspect warriors or whatever. its less points on Avatars,fire prisms,Autarchs. if a Biel Tan player is willing to invest a couple of hundred points into such a unit which isnt adding as much to the army as extra aspect squads or transports would then bully for them

so with no restrictions then an Ulthwe player can legally not take a seer council if he shares your view and instead take lots of aspects. How is that an Ulthwe army?

There are enforced limits on what can and can't be taken in SM chapters so why not 5 craftworlds?

gitburna
09-08-2006, 23:03
Indeed, but then again, if Pathfinders are still going to be a valid unit, why can't Black Guardians also be a valid unit, considering that they're concept wasn't actually broken, but rather the rules for the basic guardians were?

pathfinders per se werent a problem:- access to them and rangers was kinda restricted via needing sao many of these and them and more xs than ys. It was the disruption table which people hated.

My beef with black guardians is more conceptual. Sure they are more soldiery. But if they're training for war all the time why not just become an aspect warrior. Add on the fact that that souped guardians ended up being better than aspects/10,000 year old chaos marines etc etc. I wouldnt have minded an Ulthwe list getting access to a third guardian squad but there is NO NEED to designate them black guardians. Dire avengers fill the same role better and now they've been put back into the mainstay role its only right they should appear in an Ulthwe army even if there are fewer aspects.

There is no need for guardians to get WS/BS4, None. Even less so now that Starcannons are kinda sidelined. take your two squads of guardians and by definition you're taking more guardians than most other lists will be.Dire Avengers are the mainstay of the eldar list not guardians,what the guardians do provide is a flexible all round troop with numbers,psyhcic support and a heavy weapon to make up for the fact they arent the best fighters. i think this list is the best incarnation of an Eldar list ive seen GW and i have only seen the rumours like everyone else. The others have been too restrictive or too open, or have emphasised in the wrong area IMO and i think this one should have a perfect blance.

Malempo
09-08-2006, 23:07
To be honest I am upset because the old lists could have been fitted in the back of the Eldar Book. By all means, leave the Vanilla list as the next dex has it. But include specific lists with changes to balance things out.

Including specific list in a codex was something the developpers admitted was a balance nightmare and an error they did in Chaos codex and Craftworld. An error they stated won't happen anymore. If they do different list, they will have their own codex ŗ la SM.


Okay those suggestions do not fix everything but they show the way to go. There was no good reason for not doing this except laziness. None of the proposals by Brimm accurately represent any of the Craftworlds, just because you have to include aspects in them all to get a competitive list. You should not have to (except Beil-Tan of course). The other 4 are all about not having a lot of aspects and letting other units do the work in their place. As far as I can see none of the Craftworld specific units can work on their own any more, like they used to. It was the special rules and extra units that actually made it viable to run the army that way. Without them, the army loses a lot of character and is nearly unplayable.

I don't see why?

Biel-Tan : The new dex will made this craftworld even more interesting because you will be able to field all aspects, they will all now be useful and the Avatar will have a real survivability.

Alaitoc : No more disruption table but you will still be able to field Path finders. With the insane amount of pining weapons now avaible to eldars, it will be easy to make a very interesting Alaitoc Pining list. (Shrieker, Vibro-canon, Plasma Missile, D-Canon barrage). You won't need to make a big focus on aspects warriors on this one.

Iyanden : The Wraithguard get slightly better but still not enough to justify an army of them (never really liked Iyanden). On the other side, you can use the Wraithlord as better long-range firing monstruosities. Aspects will be necessary to back the wraithguard in close combat but not more than before.

Saim Hann : hit the jackpot. Autarch on jetbike riding with the Shining Spears, Jetbike troops, Vyper Fast Attack, Falcon, Farseer on Jetbike to guide the Falcon and Fire prism. You probably can make a very competitive list with only Shining Spears as Aspect Warriors.

Ulthwe : I always played Ulthwe very shooty and the new codex will still allow you to do that. Nine guided Warwalkers while summoning cries of cheese are still very efficient and fluffy. Since with guide and BS 3 you hit 3/4, that's 27 hits of Starcannon against Meq or 54 hits of Scatter laser against hordes. Add in squads of guardians with Bright lances and you have a good base for an Ulthwe army without having to resort to Aspect Warriors.


I think you see the new aspect warriors as a problem because they are now, what they should always have been : specialised unit made to work good alone and extremely good when used all together. The fact that all special units of every craftworld are now avaible to everyone doesn't destroy the character of the Craftworld it just allows unfluffy players to do so. If you see one you can always tell him that Iyanden is about Dead people or Saim Hann is about Flying things but remember the Craftworlds were never about not using the Aspect Warriors, including Ulthwe. The Craftworld were about having a special focus not about forgetting half the list.

gitburna
09-08-2006, 23:09
you said

so with no restrictions then an Ulthwe player can legally not take a seer council if he shares your view and instead take lots of aspects. How is that an Ulthwe army?



ITS NOT AN ULTHWE ARMY THEN Like ive just said, the fact they're just painted black doesnt theme them as an ulthwe army. Is it so hard to understand? If you want to play Ulthwe you buy two lots of guardians, a seer council,guardian crewed vehicles and weaponry and you dont buy too many aspect warriors. How hard can it be? if i took a Biel Tan list with no aspect warriors at all , i wouldnt be fielding a biel tan force would i?

Why do some people find it necessary to have regimented tightly controlled choices? i can go down to the corner shop and take up smoking 60 cigarettes a day if i so wish, never exercise again, drink 5 pints of lager a night. I choose not to. The government doesnt have to tell me not to for me to come to that decision.

Malempo
09-08-2006, 23:14
Why do some SM chapters get their own codex and not some Craftworlds. Do i need to go on?

Because SM are about 40% of ALL GW sales?

carl
09-08-2006, 23:36
@ Malempo

I know why it is. but it STILL bugs me okay. plus it's the loss of units like Wild Riders, CotYK, the lack of restrictions, the ability to feild a seer council with aspects alongside and no guardians and still call it Ulthwe or lots of rangers and still call it Beil-Tan, or lots of Wraithguard and call it Aialtoc.

And my beef with aspects is this: apart from aspects the only things getting better that we know of are Fire Prism, Wraithlord, and War Walkers. thus there is a lot of good reasons to suppose lists without aspects will not be competetive. GW will have balanced the list with a mix of units in mind. as a result anybody who dosen't feild a mix of units is going to be at a disadvantage compared to those with few/none.

p.s. This discussion is getting heated, lets all take a deep breath if we can.

Ravening Wh0re
09-08-2006, 23:38
I may be wrong but you might be able to give this squad flamers or if you're really hot on fielding them, just count them as dire avengers. A lot of players have a silly dislike of the words "Counts as..." when it actually opens up a big field of modelling and theming choices.

Yeah, but, Dire Avengers are more expensive, are fielded in smaller numbers, have heavier armour, and are BS4.

I just wanted plain Guardians (hopefully with BS3) with catapults, nothing more. I like them fast and fragile with a sting.

Aegius
09-08-2006, 23:40
why not just use your black guardians as dire avengers. A themed army, who'd of thought of that eh?

Master Jeridian
09-08-2006, 23:45
This 'diluting' of Chapters/Craftworlds/Regiments/etc is not without precedent.

You go on about Space Marines keeping their individual Chapters, but in many cases this is no longer the case.

For units- only Space Wolves could take Ven Dreads, True Grit, only Blood Angels could have Furious Charge, etc.

And what of White Scars, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, etc.

With the new SM Codex this 'diversity' was washed away for everyone to have their options.

Why not the same with the Eldar Codex? What of 'DIY' Craftworlds?
If someone wants to keep to a theme, they can use that rarely used thing called free will and discipline- rather than being lazy and compliant and relying on a 'word of God' decree from GW to fall back on.

carl
09-08-2006, 23:48
Yes but the traits impose limitations, it's not just that evryone got evryone else options. but that they didn't include specific limitations on the big guys to ensure that they actully worked in a manner consistant with their background as opossed to kix and match the best stuff and to hell with the background which is waht a lot of players will do.

Tamoio
10-08-2006, 00:17
Well... I predict a sudden spike in obliterator, basilisk and defiler sales :)

But that's not much of a prediction is it?

Malempo
10-08-2006, 00:18
And my beef with aspects is this: apart from aspects the only things getting better that we know of are Fire Prism, Wraithlord, and War Walkers. thus there is a lot of good reasons to suppose lists without aspects will not be competetive. GW will have balanced the list with a mix of units in mind. as a result anybody who dosen't feild a mix of units is going to be at a disadvantage compared to those with few/none.

Well, Wraithguard are getting a better toughness and slightly improved gun (maybe I will finally field mine),the Avatar got major update, Falcon aren't invincible anymore but are slightly cheapers. Warlock and Farseer come with standard equipment at slighly lower cost, a new power and spirit seer upgrade. Harlequins seems like a fine option. The only thing that doesn't benefit from an upgrade are the guardians (even Support Weapon platforms seems to get better).

this fact I understand can be annoying for Ulthwe players but I don't think the list will be underpowered if you take few aspect warriors. I think the great variety of the new list will allows you to play a guardian heavy Ulthwe list without being drawn back.

you still have the following units :

-Seer Council
-Avatar (More USF but with the new stat line will be an assets to any craftworld, especially with hordes of guardians if his Fearless confering ability also work on eldar not engage in close combat)
-The Dreadfull War walker (not open top anymore!!!!)
-Vypers
-Hordes of Storm Guardians (even without WS 4 they can still be useful and cheap)
-Guardian Defenders fire support against tanks

Not even an aspect warrior and I am sure the list could work well. Ulthwe is about psykers boosting a horde of militians. You basically field a horde of Fearless storm guardians advancing toward the ennemy while backed by a hail of fire from the guided warwalkers and/or vypers. Just imagine now that you avatar is fortuned and see the fear of your opponent.


p.s. This discussion is getting heated, lets all take a deep breath if we can.

Civism is a rule of life, don't worry i am not getting angry or anything besides distracted from my job:)

Lyinar
10-08-2006, 00:24
The traits system is "broken", and I put that in quotations for a reason that I will explain later, because you can take any combination of advantages and disadvantages you want so long as it fits within the rather loose rule. This leads players to pick disadvantages that don't really hurt the army they make. Of course, one could argue that by picking that disadvantage, they are enforcing their own theme, which is why I put "broken" in quotation marks.

My justification for an Aspect-heavy Ulthwé army (or any other "unfluffy" Craftworld army) is this: A Craftworld has a MASSIVE population. Even if the army in general is made up of, say, Black Guardians, you are still easily going to have more than enough aspect warriors out of the entire craftworld to be able to take enough for a comparitively aspect-heavy list at the scale of battle that 40k takes place in. THAT is what I meant by the Craftworld Eldar codex drawing caricatures of the armies. General tendencies among a population as large as what inhabits an Eldar Craftworld still leave more than enough room for company-sized forces that are outside those tendencies, especially with the way Eldar wage war. In Epic, yes, the tendencies should be MUCH more pronounced, but then again, in Epic, one turn is the same as a whole battle in 40k, and a handful of stands is a whole 40k army.

Smoking Frog
10-08-2006, 00:53
I do find it particularly interesting at how many people have forgotten the Eldar of the 2nd edition, in comparison to the disaster of the 3rd.

Way back when, there were no such things as Craftworld specific armies. You could, just like the upcoming codex, build a force that fully represented the fluff of the craftworld, which was provided in some detail, with absolutely no bonuses or restrictions for it. The best part was that everything was actually worth taking too! You could take as many rangers as you wanted for Alaitoc (there wasn't even a Pathfinder upgrade), you could take as many Wraithguard as you could, and stick some Eldar Dreadnoughts in support, etc. The only restriction... you had to meet the minimum 25% requirement for squads.

Black Guardians were designated in the fluff very strongly, in fact they were mentioned both in the fluff part of the codex and in the army list part. But they were just normal guardians. They were not special guardians, despite being on call more often in the fluff. They were Black Guardians, but still Guardians.

I'm an avid Ulthwe and Biel-tan player. Soon to be Alaitoc player too, when those stupid CE rules and restrictions get out too (I want rangers, just not a buttload of them). I'm not mourning the loss of the Court of the Young King, because frankly, it was a crappy unit. Fluffy, but pretty damn crap. I'm not mourning the loss of taking one Aspect exclusively, because, quite frrankly, that was just wrong. Nor am I mourning the loss of compulsory Guardians and the oversized seer council, because;

1) I always had taken a Seer Council made up of 6 (2 Farseers, 4 Warlocks, beefed up).

2) While BS/WS 4 Guardians were a bit better, and a sweet little fringe benefit for having a black eldar army, horde Eldar armies never hit me well, Guardian armies were a silly 3rd ed screw up (sorry Gav, luv ya and all, but you really, really did screw that up...), and originally the fluff for Ulthwe was that there were more Guardians on call, not that they were better or completely overshadowed the Aspects on the field of combat (Aspects are front line troops, and Ulthwe is forced, because of the many wars it fights, to use more guardians as replacement frontline troops, not use them in massive hordes or exclusively except in very screwed up and rare circumstances) and...

3) I honestly abhored the restrictions placed upon me to take more guardians if I wanted anything useful, so I just stuck 5-wound platforms near the back and bought whatever I wanted. I like having two or three big units of Guardians and Storm Guardians to scare someone a good one when they get too close, but I don't want to be forced to take Guardians for aspects or anything else.

This is my reasoning as to why I will not miss this incarnation of the Eldar codex. It was a horrible, restrictive and unfluffy codex with half of the units being completely useles, the other half being used exclusively. The Craftworld codex only helped as a quick fix, it wasn't long until that became abused. I love the Eldar, they have many sweet looking units and are very powerful, I just don't particularly like this incarnation compared to the previous or the upcoming. :)


Now, something that disturbs me is the comparison between our codex and the Marine one. Because whatever they have we have to have better. :) Seriously, I hear this quite often on the Interweb exclusively. I really don't understand it.

We have abilities and tech that Marines don't have, we have squads and units that work uniquely from any other army... Do you know how sweet my Dark Angels would have it if they had Eldar tech? They'd be invincible.

So, why should we have traits, when the Eldar's main advantage is its ability to take whatever it needs for any particular situation? Even the major Craftworld deviances don't prevent them from fielding exactly what they need from any particular battle. It may be rarer, but usually it can be fielded. It's just that losses of that particular thing will be felt more...

I don't see how traits will make our armies more unique. What does make us unique is that we don't have an archetypal Eldar army, or Troop. That's our advantage. A damn good one too. :)

Captain Optimus Metallus
10-08-2006, 02:02
My beef with black guardians is more conceptual. Sure they are more soldiery. But if they're training for war all the time why not just become an aspect warrior.

Completely agree. If you're gonna be a full-time soldier, rather then a Weekend Warrior like most other Guardians, then why not just put in a bit of extra effort and become an Aspect Warrior?

As for Ulthwe' having less Aspects then other Craftworlds, and a table-top Ulthwe' list with Aspects not being fluffy, I call bull. 40k is small-scale warfare. In large scale conflicts you'll start noticing the difference, but in 40k scale conflicts, any Craftworld can and should be able to field any kind of force it likes. Ulthwe' with an all-Aspect army, Iyanden with a Guardian list, Biel-Tan with a Jetbike force, etc. We're talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-100 soldiers in your standard 40k game. However little Aspects Ulthwe' has, surely they've got more then 50-100 in the entire damned Craftworld (And odds are, the Aspects actually number in the thousands or tens of thousands)!

carl
10-08-2006, 11:24
Way back when, there were no such things as Craftworld specific armies. You could, just like the upcoming codex, build a force that fully represented the fluff of the Craftworld, which was provided in some detail, with absolutely no bonuses or restrictions for it. The best part was that everything was actually worth taking too! You could take as many rangers as you wanted for Alaitoc (there wasn't even a Pathfinder upgrade), you could take as many Wraithguard as you could, and stick some Eldar Dreadnoughts in support, etc. The only restriction... you had to meet the minimum 25% requirement for squads.

That has changed for a lot of armies, now if you want to take a particular style of list you have to take the restrictions and extras that go with it. How things used to be is not necessarily a good defence for changing them back. If you think that that was fluffy, then that is a good argument. IMHO of course.


Black Guardians were designated in the fluff very strongly, in fact they were mentioned both in the fluff part of the codex and in the army list part. But they were just normal guardians. They were not special guardians, despite being on call more often in the fluff. They were Black Guardians, but still Guardians.

Well of course, but the idea that guardians who fight a lot of battles do not get better really does not make sense. You could leave it at the standard abilities and stats or you can add to them, neither is necessarily unfluffy. However, adding to them adds more character to the army.


1) I always had taken a Seer Council made up of 6 (2 Farseers, 4 Warlocks, beefed up).

2) While BS/WS 4 Guardians were a bit better, and a sweet little fringe benefit for having a black Eldar army, horde Eldar armies never hit me well, Guardian armies were a silly 3rd ed screw up (sorry Gav, luv ya and all, but you really, really did screw that up...), and originally the fluff for Ulthwe was that there were more Guardians on call, not that they were better or completely overshadowed the Aspects on the field of combat (Aspects are front line troops, and Ulthwe is forced, because of the many wars it fights, to use more guardians as replacement frontline troops, not use them in massive hordes or exclusively except in very screwed up and rare circumstances) and...

3) I honestly abhorred the restrictions placed upon me to take more guardians if I wanted anything useful, so I just stuck 5-wound platforms near the back and bought whatever I wanted. I like having two or three big units of Guardians and Storm Guardians to scare someone a good one when they get too close, but I don't want to be forced to take Guardians for aspects or anything else.

Frankly, if you do not like the limitations the Craftworlds codex armies forced on you, then you should not use it (as I did not). You have admitted there is plenty of justification for the limits on aspects. If you want to play seer council with aspects, play a Vanilla list.


This is my reasoning as to why I will not miss this incarnation of the Eldar codex. It was a horrible, restrictive and unfluffy codex with half of the units being completely useless, the other half being used exclusively. The Craftworld codex only helped as a quick fix, it wasn't long until that became abused

As the fluff was quoted in the Craftworld codex and the Epic Beil-Tan section the codex was completely fluffy in every respect. Ulthwe doesnít have a lot of aspects so it gets restrictions on aspects. Simple as that, don't like it, don't play Ulthwe.


So, why should we have traits, when the Eldarís main advantage is its ability to take whatever it needs for any particular situation? Even the major Craftworld deviances don't prevent them from fielding exactly what they need from any particular battle. It may be rarer, but usually it can be fielded. It's just that losses of that particular thing will be felt more.

Because those traits where a way of giving specific Eldar armies (Ulthwe, Beil-Tan, Iyanden, Saim-Hann e.t.c) unique abilities and downsides.


As for Ulthwe' having less Aspects then other Craftworlds, and a table-top Ulthwe' list with Aspects not being fluffy, I call bull. 40k is small-scale warfare. In large scale conflicts you'll start noticing the difference, but in 40k scale conflicts, any Craftworld can and should be able to field any kind of force it likes. Ulthwe' with an all-Aspect army, Iyanden with a Guardian list, Biel-Tan with a Jetbike force, etc. We're talking somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50-100 soldiers in your standard 40k game.

What you and everyone else doesnít seem able to get your heads round is this. Myself and many of the complainers don't care what Ulthwe might be able to do. That sort of army can be done via the Vanilla section. What we care about is an actual Ulthwe army as it is described in the background. There are no rules to represent this (or any other Craftworlds) in the new book. Many of the unique limitations and advantages are gone, and as a result much of the character has gone. Plus we WILL see most players fielding forces from one Craftworld that do not match the proper army composition (no, not unfluffy, simply not the way the army is supposed to be done). I don't care what's possible (the vanilla list is for that kind of variety) only that if someone fields an army that supposedly comes from a specific Craftworld, it is properly chosen to fit that Craftworlds way of doing things.

Will I be using the new codex to do a bit of mix and match? Yes, but I will not be claiming it is from a particular Craftworld other than one of my own invention. It is not fair otherwise; an army built via mix and match is rarely going to look like a proper army (i.e. what the current Craftworld codex makes them like).

The entire point about an Ulthwe army is that it has a lot of Guardians and a Seer Council, that is what makes an Ulthwe army Ulthwe in character on the tabletop. An army of seer councils and aspects may be field-able in small games by Ulthwe, but it isn't representative of how Ulthwe normally fights its battles, and that is what the Ulthwe list should represent, the vanilla codex is there to provide the option of an Ulthwe force with lots of aspects. I.e. how it might fight smaller battles. You can play epic sized games via 40k you know. Moreover, some 40k games will represent part of a larger force involved in an epic (pardon the pun) battle. Not every 40k force will be actually small enough to justify lots of aspects.

Sarigar
10-08-2006, 11:49
What do you care about how people build their armies? The Craftworld Codex and on a smaller scale, the Eldar Codex are not well written. You tend to see the same extreme builds in tourneys (Ranger army, Seer Council and min/max Guardian squads and mechanized Biel Tan lists). People can, and will, build the army that suits them. Heck, even current Ulthwe players can build crazy, broken lists that don't pertain to the 'fluff' of Ulthwe.

It truly looks like GW has taken a hard look at where they felt they screwed up with 3rd edition Eldar (which was a lot). We're getting a good amount of new models, a lot of rule changes (strangely enough, many can still play with what they currently have model wise) and the flexibility to field what we want and still maintain a solid feel for particular Craftworlds. Heck, they are bringing back Yuriel (sp?). This character comes from the Rogue Trader days (circa late 80's).

Ironically, taking all the rumors that have been put out, my current Ulthwe army will need to have a total of 8 Guardians added to all my Guardian squads to fulfill the (rumored) new min size squads. Whew, man, is my army getting nerfed.

Once the new codex is out, folks will clamor to the hot new builds that they think they can decimate their opponents with. They have been able to play with their existing Ulthwe armies for 5 years now, it's ok if things change a bit.

-An Ulthwe player clamoring for the new codex.

carl
10-08-2006, 12:34
I think giving a clear concise set of views for myself instead of replying to everyone is the best thing I can do right now.

First: Yes, I agree the current Craftworld codex is excessively exploitable, and thus utterly broken.

Second: I agree if people abused the Craftworld lists the forces that resulted where not particularly representative of the real armies that are always described in the background.

Third: Many of these Armies have very specific ways of waging war, and it is this particular way of waging war that a list from that Craftworld is supposed to represent, IMHO.

Fourth: To this end many of the limitations, Extra Rules, and Extra units in the Craftworld codex where fluffy, just because they made players wanting to take an army from that Craftworld play their forces in a way consistent with how the army wages war (thus referring back to point three).

Fifth: in relation to point four, if you want variety and choices and change in your army you should not be playing one of the armies described (back to point three again) as these armies represent a particular way of war. Barring any unexpected changes the background for these armies is not likely to change in any major way, thus their way of waging war (point three) will not be changing much. As a result, the way they play on the tabletop will not be changing much anymore. These special armies are not for players who want variety and complete freedom of choice (hence, why I do not play with them much), they are there for the player who wants his army to come from a specific Craftworld because he likes that Craftworld for some reason.

Sixth: Thus, the loss of their Rules and extra options/units is a severe blow to their uniqueness and character, they are supposed to be different from the run of the mill list that comes from the vanilla codex, and the extra rules and options they have lost helped represent this. They where just poorly balanced from a gaming perspective. This could have been changed, and they could have been added to the back of the codex.

Remember all of these represent my point of view only.

gitburna
10-08-2006, 13:29
What you and everyone else doesnít seem able to get your heads round is this. Myself and many of the complainers don't care what Ulthwe might be able to do. That sort of army can be done via the Vanilla section. What we care about is an actual Ulthwe army as it is described in the background. There are no rules to represent this (or any other Craftworlds) in the new book. Many of the unique limitations and advantages are gone, and as a result much of the character has gone. Plus we WILL see most players fielding forces from one Craftworld that do not match the proper army composition (no, not unfluffy, simply not the way the army is supposed to be done). I don't care what's possible (the vanilla list is for that kind of variety) only that if someone fields an army that supposedly comes from a specific Craftworld, it is properly chosen to fit that Craftworlds way of doing things.

Uh, Carl. If a player wants to take a characterful Ulthe army list they are perfectly well able to do so. Are you trying to say to me that if i choose to paint my army black and use the ulthwe craftworld symbol that i must play in a certain way? That i cant play outside your own ideas of what an ulthwe army should look like? If i want to paint my army blue and yellow, are you telling me ive got to take a load of rangers or im not playing nicely?

No, frankly Carl, thats cobblers. This is a game, i play it for fun, i dont want rules lawyers or fluff lawyers to ruin the creativity available to the list. Its been written well by the sounds of it this time and this idea that you need a set army list for 5different craftworlds when a bit of flexibility in the main list will serve perfectly well is misguided in my opinion.

Im sure every single ulthwe military action doesnt require that the big seer council, black guardians and hardly any aspect warriors come along.Im fairly certain that there will be some actions which are high level or critical enough that a heavy strike force comprised of aspect warriors will be fielded, or that it may field a high number of fast attack vehicles. Likewise im as sure that Saim Hann do sometimes fight off their jetbikes.







The entire point about an Ulthwe army is that it has a lot of Guardians and a Seer Council, that is what makes an Ulthwe army Ulthwe in character on the tabletop. An army of seer councils and aspects may be field-able in small games by Ulthwe, but it isn't representative of how Ulthwe normally fights its battles, and that is what the Ulthwe list should represent

Here is the crux of the matter Carl. You seem to be bothered by the fact someone can claim to be playing a black painted army that features no guardians. SO What? For the player who wants to play a proper characterful army from Ulthwe, they can do so. Exactly like the player from Alaitoc can take more rangers than other people would, or the iyanden player can take more wraithguard, an Ulthwe army can base their army around the guardian squads and seer council with the unique benefits and drawbacks that it provides. An Alaitoc Army is bound to have at least one squad of Rangers in it, but to say something like "Its not Alaitoc if it doesnt have 3 or 4" is ridiculous. The very presence of some rangers and the fact its painted in blue and yellow immediately identifies the army as being from Alaitoc.

Likewise a saim hann force featuring some red jetbikes is clearly Saim Hann, an army with some yellow and blue wraithguard and wraithlords is from Iyanden and so on.. You just DONT need to have these extreme limits of the rules laid down so that everyone assumes it is the norm.

Take the full allowance of Guardians and a decent sized seer council and fill the rest of your army with characterful choices and you have surprise surprise a characterful Ulthwe army.



the vanilla codex is there to provide the option of an Ulthwe force with lots of aspects. I.e. how it might fight smaller battles. You can play epic sized games via 40k you know. Moreover, some 40k games will represent part of a larger force involved in an epic (pardon the pun) battle. Not every 40k force will be actually small enough to justify lots of aspects.

In which case the normal force organistation chart wont be used. Do you think all the battles related in for instance the Taros or Anphelion campaigns by forgeworld use normal force organisation charts?

emperorpenguin
10-08-2006, 13:52
Ironically, taking all the rumors that have been put out, my current Ulthwe army will need to have a total of 8 Guardians added to all my Guardian squads to fulfill the (rumored) new min size squads. Whew, man, is my army getting nerfed.
.


you run 2 man strong Ulthwe squads? I doubt it.....

carl
10-08-2006, 14:09
Uh, Carl. If a player wants to take a characterful Ulthwe army list they are perfectly well able to do so. Are you trying to say to me that if i choose to paint my army black and use the Ulthwe Craftworld symbol that i must play in a certain way? That i cant play outside your own ideas of what an Ulthwe army should look like? If i want to paint my army blue and yellow, are you telling me Iíve got to take a load of rangers or im not playing nicely?

Painting your army black, NO. putting the Ulthwe symbol on NO. Claiming itís an Ulthwe Army YES. You choose to play Ulthwe then you make the choice to play your list within certain restrictions. Ulthwe represents a particular way of playing the Eldar list (Guardian heavy) and thus in using it you make a completely informed decision to play a Guardian heavy force.


No, frankly Carl, thatís cobblers. This is a game, i play it for fun, i dont want rules lawyers or fluff lawyers to ruin the creativity available to the list.

What you can't seem to grasp is this. You want flexibility? don't play a Craftworld with a particular way of fighting. play a vanilla one (as i do). the entire point of these Craftworlds is they fight a particular way and if you chose to use them you are completely aware that you will have to abide by those restrictions. don't like the restrictions? don't play them (thatís what I do).


Iím sure every single Ulthwe military action doesnít require that the big seer council, black guardians and hardly any aspect warriors come along. Iím fairly certain that there will be some actions which are high level or critical enough that a heavy strike force comprised of aspect warriors will be fielded, or that it may field a high number of fast attack vehicles. Likewise Iím as sure that Saim-Hann do sometimes fight off their Jetbikes.

I never said it did, BUT, the PUPRPOSE of an Ulthwe list is to represent Ulthwe at war in the way it fights most of it's wars. Guardian heavy with seer council. don't like that, don't play Ulthwe.


Here is the crux of the matter Carl. You seem to be bothered by the fact someone can claim to be playing a black painted army that features no guardians.

NO, I am bothered by people claiming it is an Ulthwe army (regardless of the way it is painted). I am bothered about people claiming an army is from a particular Craftworld when it does not reflect that Craftworlds way of waging war. they can wage war differently to what the list represents. But the purpose of the actual list for that army is to represent how it normally wages war.


An Alaitoc Army is bound to have at least one squad of Rangers in it, but to say something like "Its not Alaitoc if it doesnít have 3 or 4" is ridiculous. The very presence of some rangers and the fact its painted in blue and yellow immediately identifies the army as being from Alaitoc.

No, it doesnít. the only thing that identifies where an army comes from is A) where you say it comes from, and B) what army composition it has (and thus the background that says that Craftworld has that army composition. this can be official or what you've made up for your own Craftworld).


Take the full allowance of Guardians and a decent sized seer council and fill the rest of your army with characterful choices and you have surprise, surprise a characterful Ulthwe army.

This is defiantly true, however you (and others) appear to be suggesting that taking all aspects and Autarch's and nothing else and claiming it is Ulthwe is right. IT IS NOT (IMHO). An Ulthwe force should represent how the Craftworld normally wages it's wars (after all the guardian heavy, seer council approach would not be Ulthweís big thing if it wasn't how the majority of their battles where fought).

For me (and others) the background is a basis for the entire game, the rules are wrapped around it in a balanced way. They should represent the background to the best of their ability whilst remaining balanced. If this is not the case then I do not see any actual reason to have the background. In fact would happily do without it (background) if it is not important (i.e. treated as unimportant window dressing, which is what some people are suggesting). For the rules to accurately represent the Craftworlds they really do need the restrictions so that people who field a force from a specific Craftworld (or SM chapter) field a force that is in line with the background.

I suspect your reply to that last paragraph will be something along the lines of ďI donít care too much about the backgroundĒ. At this point, I think we reach an impasse. You probably would not care if there was no background. So long as the game was good fun to play. I on the other hand would not be playing the game if there was no background. To me the rules should always be subservient to the background, within the constraints of also creating a fun and balanced game (the latter two reasons being why I donít mind SM not being as good on the tabletop as they should be. It just could not be made balanced or fun. On the flip side the Vanilla list would still give you the variety you want, thus allowing all the fun you seem worried about losing with my suggestions. However, the unique lists would also represent the background properly too, keeping me (and others like me) happy.).

Souleater
10-08-2006, 14:33
"A) where you say it comes from"

Okay, it's Alatioc.

and B) what army composition it has (and thus the background that says that Craftworld has that army composition.

Okay...I'll take several units of Rangers a lot of the time.

Viola, an Alatioc army.

The name goes with the accepted paint scheme. The unit choices and fighting style fit with the 'fluff'.

But maybe, on occasion the Rangers are busy. Fighting elsewhere. Keeping the bulk of the enemy busy while the rest of the strike force pull the raid you're playing. Or the commander thinks that other units would be more useful. Or maybe a player wants to do a 'different take' on Alatioc.
And, fwiw, the SM 'dex should work the same.

ie You want White Scars, you pick a lot of bikes and JP troops.

You want SW, you avoid JPs but have lots of assault troops.

Getting rid of the variant dexes would solve a lot of the MEQ imbalance problems. But I don't see GW doing it.

There were lots of problems as I understand it with the CE dex. Most people (based on what we know) seem happy that the dex has been radically improved and reorganised to avoid the 'one half useful, one half useless' complaints of old.

So it's been made balanced and fairly flexible - you can build a guardian heavy, Farseer lead army if you want to play Ulthwe, for instance. Or an Aspect heavy, guardian light army if you want to be Biel-tan.

carl
10-08-2006, 14:44
But maybe, on occasion the Rangers are busy. Fighting elsewhere. Keeping the bulk of the enemy busy while the rest of the strike force pull the raid you're playing. Or the commander thinks that other units would be more useful. Or maybe a player wants to do a 'different take' on Alaitoc.

I CAN understand this viewpoint. This is what the Vanilla list is for. You want an Alaitoc Variant. use the Vanilla rule. Want an Alaitoc Ranger force. use the variant. the Variant can represent the differences and uniqueness of these forces far better than any Vanilla list can because it can have the weird and whacky stuff. Vanilla lists can't because it would be unbalanced.


i.e. You want White Scars, you pick a lot of bikes and JP troops.

You want SW, you avoid JPs but have lots of assault troops.

The problem is these armies have a lot of Unique points about them, this makes it plain impossible to fit their real character into a Vanilla list. SW are far more than lost of assault troops. White Scars are more than just lots of Bikes. Vanilla lists cannot represent big variations properly because these variants are so different when properly represented that the differences could not be included in a vanilla codex in any way that is even remotely balanced.

Malempo
10-08-2006, 14:50
NO, I am bothered by people claiming it is an Ulthwe army (regardless of the way it is painted). I am bothered about people claiming an army is from a particular Craftworld when it does not reflect that Craftworlds way of waging war. they can wage war differently to what the list represents. But the purpose of the actual list for that army is to represent how it normally wages war.

I understand Carl that you place great importance on the fluff and I now understand what you are angry against : That GW allows the players to make unfluffy Craftworld lists. On the other side, GW made sure that the new codex would allow players to make fluffy list for all the Craftworlds. I think it's more interesting to have access to rules that allows us to do fluffy things while keeping our freedom of choice.

You are right when you say that Craftworlds represents a specific way of waging war but what you seems to forget is that it's a theme rather than an obligation. As long as there are robot zombi, flying things, aspect warriors, seer council + guardians, rangers and pining things, I will see 5 fluffy armies.

Taking some aspect warriors in Craftworld other than Biel-Tan doesn't make the list unfluffy. They use less aspect warriors but they still use them. As long as the theme of the Craftworld is respected, it's fine by me.


For me (and others) the background is a basis for the entire game, the rules are wrapped around it in a balanced way. They should represent the background to the best of their ability whilst remaining balanced. If this is not the case then I do not see any actual reason to have the background. In fact would happily do without it (background) if it is not important (i.e. treated as unimportant window dressing, which is what some people are suggesting). For the rules to accurately represent the Craftworlds they really do need the restrictions so that people who field a force from a specific Craftworld (or SM chapter) field a force that is in line with the background.

There is no need for restrictions, in list free of restrictions people who play a certain Craftworld plays it because they like the theme of this craftworld and will probably play it that way but with more freedom while still respecting the theme of the Craftworld. Of course there is the possibility to see a player who doesn't give a crap about fluff and play is Craftworld army the way he wants but you can always ignore them. There is a guy in my game group who refuse to play against unfluffy list. You can always do it like that.

Remember that the game is about having fun and respecting the other players. It's fine if you don't want to field an unfluffy army but don't yell at those who do.

GW said they would do only a Vanilla list for the codex but there would be possibility to accuretly represent every Craftworld. That's what the new dex is about : Making your own Craftworld without the needs of traits. The way it seems, the new eldar codex will be the most flexible and varied of all codex, making it a great assets for us.

Souleater
10-08-2006, 15:00
If you want a Ranger force....take lots of Rangers. The Rangers have their special rules out of the box. By taking lots of rangers you reduce your ability to take other units because you have fewer points.

You don't get the Disruption Table? Not a great loss to balance, methinks. I've seen too many opponents screwed over before the game began on that one.

Yes, White Scars are just more than Bikes. They're a fast moving hit and run force. You can pretty much do that as they are. Sure, you dont' get all the special rules but frankly GW often go too far with those anyway.

As to Vanilla lists not be able to represent large variations of style...hello?

Nids: Nidzilla to mass medium/gribblies in one dex.

Necron: Phalanx to Jetbike Deluxe in one dex.

WH: Pure Sisters to IG horde, ditto for DH.

Chaos: I think there's a little bit of customization there. Although oddly most people I know don't like the Cult specific rules and instead run 'themed' vanilla lists....hmm...

Tau: suit heavy, mechanized, etc.

I know that you will say none of these have 'special rules' to them, but I don't think that special rules are needed. Decide and theme and build an army towards it.

Inq. Veltane
10-08-2006, 15:29
Only a very shallow and superficial approach to the fluff can lead to a position like the one that carl is adopting. I played Alaitoc before they started to use lots of Rangers and just because they have access to more Rangers doesn't mean that they don't have sufficient warriors to deploy a company-level force which doesn't feature any Rangers at all. The Eldar aren't idiots, they will deploy a force that will best accomplish the mission. A craftworld has hundreds of Falcons and Wave Serpents, sometimes a quick strike force is required to take out a target and in those circumstances ANY craftworld won't hesitate to deploy such a force.

As one example take the Iyaden force that I'm planning - which contains no Wraithlords or Wraithguard. Tell me if you think this is inconsistent with the fluff of Iyaden, rather than merely being inconsistent with a single version of the Iyaden army list.

A small force of aspect warriors have been given to Asurman to enable him to attack and destroy a grave future threat to the Eldar race. Precisely because Iyaden lacks manpower the force consists of only a small number of Aspect Warriors and then a few vehicles to support them, as well as a troupe of Harlequins to guide the force through the webway. The force is mobile and contains no 'fodder' units, the only Guardians are safely inside vehicles where they can provide heavy support to the Aspects. There are no Wraithguard or Wraithlords because the units are too slow and because the Farseers are reluctant to risk losing spirits on a Crone World. The list clearly is appropriate for Iyaden and is well within their capacity. The fact it has no Wraith units doesn't make it unfluffy - it just requires a plausible explanation. Every craftworld. including Ulthwe, will assemble similar elite strike forces for important missions and it isn't unfluffy to do so. The Craftworld Eldar codex was a mistake quite frankly, the craftworlds have styles but none of them stick to them rigidly. Even Saim Hann can deploy a force without any vehicles if required by circumstance.

carl
10-08-2006, 15:45
I understand Carl that you place great importance on the fluff and I now understand what you are angry against : That GW allows the players to make unfluffy Craftworld lists.

Thank you.


On the other side, GW made sure that the new codex would allow players to make fluffy list for all the Craftworlds. I think it's more interesting to have access to rules that allows us to do fluffy things while keeping our freedom of choice.

Perhaps I have not been as clear as I thought here. I'm not suggesting having the Craftworld lists being the only ones with access to some of the unique units (e.g. Wraithguard as troops, Jetbikes as Troops, Seer Council, Pathfinders e.t.c). Rather that the Vanilla list still gets these.

With the Craftworld lists getting the extra Special Rules and Extra units (e.g. Black Guardians, Wild Riders, Ranger Disruption, Shining Spears as Troops, Aspects other than DA's as Troops) along with an attendant set of restrictions and negative special rules (Limits on aspect or other unit numbers, Tactical Withdrawal, Limits on what counts for ranger Disruption rolls, e.t.c). The restrictions and negative rules acting to prevent abuse and provide balances as well as matching the background (Background, Balance and, Fun Gaming should go hand in hand as all equally important).

Thus Iím not suggesting taking options away. if someone wants to play an Ulthwe force with more aspects than normal, fine i don't really mind if it's the odd player here and there, as the odd Ulthwe force will have a lot of aspects. it's the idea that we might well see nearly very Craftworld force being unfluffy that has me worked up. plus of course the fact that the loss of many of the extras and restrictions dilutes their character IMHO.


Taking some aspect warriors in Craftworld other than Biel-Tan doesn't make the list unfluffy. They use less aspect warriors but they still use them. As long as the theme of the Craftworld is respected, it's fine by me.

Its fine by me too to take some, I won't mind the odd army with a lot either. It is just the suggestion some have been doing, of most Craftworld forces fielding nearly all aspects that gets me wound up. (Beil-Tan is obviously excluded from this statement).


You don't get the Disruption Table? Not a great loss to balance, methinks. I've seen too many opponents screwed over before the game began on that one.

I agree as currently written it is WAY too good. I was not suggesting bringing it back in its broken form. Rather in a well-balanced form, Alaitoc armies should have access to it. However, it could never be included in the vanilla list, as it would not be balanced. Alaitoc's limitations on units where part of this balance. It was the use of min-maxed rangers that was the real issue.


Yes, White Scars are just more than Bikes. They're a fast moving hit and run force. You can pretty much do that as they are. Sure, you dont' get all the special rules but frankly GW often go too far with those anyway.

These rules added a lot of extra character to the army. However, they where unbalanced at times. This often came from writing the rules based on the background only and not considering Balance or Fun. Many of my attempts at re-writing the Eldar codex in the past have suffered from this. I wince now when i look back at them (I still have them saved on my hard drive). Thus with my new harlequin revision Iíve marked it as V1.0 Wish List variant:D .

I was in fact amongst one of the few non-marine players who was also upset about the loss of White Scars and others. I do not like SM getting special treatment, but only because it's only the SM getting it. If others got it, I would not be so upset.


As to Vanilla lists not be able to represent large variations of style...hello?

Nids: Nidzilla to mass medium/gribbles in one dex.

Necron: Phalanx to Jetbike Deluxe in one dex.

WH: Pure Sisters to IG horde, ditto for DH.

Chaos: I think there's a little bit of customization there. Although oddly most people I know don't like the Cult specific rules and instead run 'themed' vanilla lists....hmm...

Tau: suit heavy, mechanized, etc

I'm not sure most of those variants are necessarily as big a variation as the Craftworlds background wise. A nid variation of that scale would be Genestealer Cults or Seeding Swarm.

Necrons, Iím not sure, they don't have enough background to suggest any major variants right now. but their time will come.

WH/DH: In truth, these are quite big variants, but are badly done. Pure GK does not work at all, and pure sisters is so much better than the mixed force that they only highlight the lack of a variant (for GK's). Whilst SoB have become the standard instead of the variant.

Chaos: the variants lists in the back are the kind of thing Iím talking about, but most players decide not to use them because they are either overpowered, or underpowered. again Game Balance and Fun are behind Fluff instead of equal to it.

Tau: there's still the Farsight Enclave in the back.

I guess I don't like the loss of character that has occurred (IMO).

i must also thank the above quoted poster for their clear replies that have gone a long way towards lowering my blood pressure (along with a good meal:) ) I know I should not let myself get wound up, but it's hard when you feel strongly about something.

Simsandwich
10-08-2006, 15:46
Now my friends, have any of you played PURELY for fun? For you see, I couldn't give a damn if you used the Craftworld rules with the new lists.
Ie: Points values= New Codex
Units= Old Codex,
Wouldn't that make us all happier? If you asked me if you could play Alaitoc against me, I would have NO problems, in fact I would enjoy the chance to play a themed army.
Now stop moaning because you get souped up Guardians for the same points, make them 10 Points per Guardian if your so miffed, and make minimum squad size 10.
There.
Everybody's happy.

HeraldoftheGods
10-08-2006, 15:47
This whole thread as it appears to me;

A: "Your not playing it right!!:eek: "
B: "But I'm having fun and playing by the rules, this is cool.:cool: "
A: "That's not the point - your not playing it right, and I'm going to impose myself on you until you do play it right!!:mad: "

A bit sad realy.:eyebrows:

t-tauri
10-08-2006, 15:49
My army has had black guardians and been Ulthwe since before the "free" black guardian stands was introduced in Epic to differentiate the Craftworld lists. Until the Craftworld Eldar codex in 2000 these special rules didn't exist. In hindsight most of the Craftworld lists are overpowered and readily abusable. The Craftworld codex makes it clear that it's perfectly "fluffy" to use any of the Craftworld lists to represent any Craftworld. Ulthwe has aspect warriors.

You can still use the figures in a new codex Eldar army (you've probably too many Farseers or Warlocks though). Nothing has been invalidated or made redundant.

carl
10-08-2006, 15:52
LOL, not quite what Iím saying. Iím more worried that nearly every Ulthwe army we see is going to be aspects and seer council with maybe the odd squad of guardians to justify calling it Ulthwe. I don't want that and specific lists for each Craftworld are a good way of preventing that.

Those players who genuinely want to represent an odd situation where Ulthwe might use a lot of aspects and a seer council will use the Vanilla list to do it. And I don't mind that, people who decide to use the Vanilla list for Ulthwe will probably have thought long and hard about it. As a result we arenít going to see every Ulthwe army be an all aspect force. That is whatís got ME upset.

[quote]20-man seer councils do not fit the theme I think[quote]

Agreed, an no one has been asking for them back. they'ed be :mad: to do it.

Simsandwich
10-08-2006, 15:52
20-man seer councils do not fit the theme I think.
So thats a no.
But Wraithguard for Iyanden as troops? Sure why not, Wraithguard are cool/ Jetbikes are cool/Rangers are cool/etc...

Deadite
10-08-2006, 16:28
If you say so. But how would you feel, if in addition to losing the Disruption table, you also lost the ability to field Path Finders?

Fine, get rid of them. Wouldn't bother me a bit. They're over-priced rangers anyway. There are plenty of other methods I can employ that has the same/greater effect that Pathfinders have. Hell, I don't recall using them in more than a couple of games.


What I love is this excuse that the "flavor" is being removed from the codex and that will see more "unfluffy" armies. So? You still have your army, you can still play the way YOU want to play. Don't restrict other's enjoyment of the game by imposing rules YOU want to see.
If you don't like the codex once it comes out, do your own house rules. If you don't want to play someone who doesn't see the army the same way you do, fine, don't play.
Get over yourselves for crying out loud! There are bigger things to worry about than the way some schmuck in a gaming room is playing his Eldar army and claiming it to be an "Ulthwe" force.


If rumours hold true, we'll be getting more "fluff" (Gav reported a full size 88-page or 96-page (he wasn't sure which) codex with all of the "fluff" added back in, plus some new stuff -Chicago GD). So, at the very least, we'll see more armies themed to the "fluff" in the new codex.

Will there be abusive players that sully the name of either Craftworld? Yep. Just like every other race.
Is there really anything that can be done about it? Nope... just like the CE codex, they were abused as well. It is the goal of some gamers to find the nastiest combos and regularly employ them, regardless of "fluff".
This is nothing new, it's been around since 1983, so get over it and just play.

Souleater
10-08-2006, 16:43
LOL, not quite what Iím saying. Iím more worried that nearly every Ulthwe army we see is going to be aspects and seer council with maybe the odd squad of guardians to justify calling it Ulthwe.

Why would somebody do that, though?

Why chose to play 'the' Guardian craftworld...and then fill it with Aspect Warriors? Wouldn't most people just pick Biel-Tan or make up something else?

Those that go Aspect Ulthwe will probably do as somebody suggested earlier and make up suitable background eg these guys are on a tough mission that requires veteran soldiers working in a small, elite formation.

carl
10-08-2006, 16:51
@ Deadite

You and others like you see rules as a way to play the game and fluff as unimportant/nice extra that has no relation to how the game is played.

Myself and others on the other hand believe that the rules should reflect the fluff within the limits of game balance.

Thus, the rules should reflect that Ulthwe is guardian heavy, with few aspects. Don’t prevent people from fielding Ulthwe with lots of aspects (free choice). However, write the rules so that most people who are playing Ulthwe will be fielding fluffy forces.

For myself and others like us there is no point to having rules at all if they do not follow the fluff. I with the models because it is fun. However, I started buying and continue to buy the models because I like the fluff of the army. The current codex apparently strips much of that uniqueness out by deleting a lot of rules/options/limitations. These where what made the rules fluffy and what I will miss. I can live without them, but I don't like it and reserve the right to grumble at will.

t-tauri
10-08-2006, 17:06
But you can field your "fluffy" Ulthwe army with lots of guardians. Just paint some Dire Avengers black as Black Guardians and you've your elite guardians. Take as many guardians and war walkers as you can and you've pretty much the same army, less the Seer Council of Doom option.

carl
10-08-2006, 17:10
But you can field your "fluffy" Ulthwe army with lots of guardians. Just paint some Dire Avengers black as Black Guardians and you've your elite guardians. Take as many guardians and war walkers as you can and you've pretty much the same army, less the Seer Council of Doom option.

The Seer Council of Doom WAS stupid IMO. However there are a lot of differences between Black Guardians and DA's not including the Platform. People want to represent that. What about the court of the Young King, or Ranger Disruption, or the limitations that I actually quite liked from a fluff perspective, e.t.c you can't represent a lot of that stuff.

Finally guardians are still almost hopeless now. (that’s a really big beef with the new codex I have).

Lyinar
10-08-2006, 17:51
The only reason anyone ever took the Court of the Young King, as far as I know, was to give the Avatar some ablative wounds to make sure he actually made it into close-combat instead of dying horribly from massed shooting before he got to do anything. The Avatar is a LOT better now, and you also have the ability to field an Autarch to lead your Beil-Tan army.

Third Edition for the Eldar is being treated roughly like Superman III and IV were when they made the new movie.

Personally, there's just something about Ulthwé that attracts me that isn't related to the paint scheme or the rules, and I have absolutely no idea how to describe it. I'm quite sure that other people feel the same way. Now that we can field our own PERSONAL Ulthwé armies instead of the distilled-and-condensed stereotype, I for one want to actually take advantage of the diversity of the Eldar list and the fact that Aspect Warriors painted up in Ulthwé colours with "Aspect-specific" trim look bloody brilliant.

Also, as to Wild Riders... Autarch on Jetbike with Shining Spears flying alongside. Use them with the nifty little idea of "Counts As".

carl
10-08-2006, 18:55
The only reason anyone ever took the Court of the Young King, as far as I know, was to give the Avatar some ablative wounds to make sure he actually made it into close-combat instead of dying horribly from massed shooting before he got to do anything. The Avatar is a LOT better now, and you also have the ability to field an Autarch to lead your Beil-Tan army.

Regardless of how good it actually was (it was bad) it was another option that added to the character of the army and a revision of it would deal with people using it as ablative wounds.


Personally, there's just something about Ulthwť that attracts me that isn't related to the paint scheme or the rules, and I have absolutely no idea how to describe it. I'm quite sure that other people feel the same way. Now that we can field our own PERSONAL Ulthwť armies instead of the distilled-and-condensed stereotype

The problem is it isn't a condensed stereotype. that IS how Ulthwe fights 90% of it's battles. However I DO understand your wish to play them that way. Well you have two options now (and the same two under the new codex). 1.) Paint it your colours (Ulthwe for you) colours but use a different name and army list to represent it. 2.) Paint it Ulthwe your colours (Ulthwe for you) colours but use a different army list and still call it Ulthwe.

I don't mind a few people playing Ulthwe/Saim-Han/Beil-Tan e.t.c in ways that don't match their background. But the majority of players playing that army should really have their armies conforming to the accepted standard for what is the composition of that army. Specific lists encouraged this. In reality, what we are likely to see is most players calling any army including a seer council an Ulthwe force. Which isn't Ulthwe at all. Most Ulthwe forces should include a fair few guardians. Likewise, Iím expecting to see lots of Saim-Han armies with just the 2 Jetbike squads and nothing else.


Also, as to Wild Riders... Autarch on Jetbike with Shining Spears flying alongside. Use them with the nifty little idea of "Counts As".

That works fine in the short term, but I highly doubt Shining spears play anything like Wild Riders. the thing with count as is it's a stop gap. it's not a cure for the problem thatís Saim-Han (or others) don't get character options that are limited to just them.

What do you suggest I (I donít play Alaitoc BTW, itís an example) count ranger disruption, or the ability to have 2 banshee squads as troops as?

You can use counts as (barely) to deal with missing units for a specific Craftworld but you can't do it for rules that are missing. And even with units, count as rarely captures the full flavour that made that unit so unique. I don't care how bad the units where, i just resent the lack of character all the Craftworlds have now.

Restrictions and special rules help ensure that (power gamers, and individuals like yourself (note Iím not comparing you to a power gamer, you just happen to be the two groups the statement does not apply to) aside) a force from a specific Craftworld looks largely like it's supposed to.

Dosadi
10-08-2006, 19:07
Amen Lyinar!

I've been playing Ulthwie since RT. This was before they really had any backgound other than they were the ones with Yellow Helmets. I don't know what it is about them either that made me wanna play them. It was so long ago now that I can't remember why I made that choce. I prpbably would have chosen Saim Hain now 'cause the whole cosmic serpent is cool (I'm thinking like my 13 year old self from back in the day). I never really bought into the whole Black Guardians are better than regular guardians thing. I will always use guardians because it does fit the theme of Ulthwie.
Ulthwie's main thing was always Seers, lots of seers. I like that idea. As such, I will probably not use an Autarch. I will buy one, I will paint one, but when it comes to playing games I will use a couple of farseers backed up by warlocks. Warlocks everywhere!
...That and an Avatar:D

I will not miss the all guardian army that was imposed on me in 3rd. edition. I like the idea of being able to make the army I had back in 2nd. edition and have it be fair and balanced (like FOX news?). I don't see what the big deal is over a single point of BS.
As for the people who have these mini. maxed armies with huge seer councels and 5 man guardian squads; shame on you for meta gaming is all I really have to say. If you over specialise or exploit rules then you deserve to get burnt.

For those of us who have been building armies with lots of variety we can easily adapt to the changing lists and not suffer when a new codex comes out that attempts to fix the errors and oversights of the previous version.

All eldar players are loosing something in the new codex. But we are gaining alot more in return.

Dosadi

carl
10-08-2006, 19:25
2 points

1.) From the point of view of those of us to whom the fluff is important, the diluting of the character of many Craftworlds is more important to us than all the new options we are getting. Even if they ARE nice in some respects.

2.) Its pretty clear where not going to convince each other of our points of view, thus lets just drop it and stop arguing. It’s a bit pointless. I’m not happy about a lot of the changes, you are and neither of us is likely to change so let’s save the effort for a more impartial discussion.

Deadite
10-08-2006, 20:57
@ Deadite
Myself and others on the other hand believe that the rules should reflect the fluff within the limits of game balance.



You still have your army, you can still play the way YOU want to play. Don't restrict other's enjoyment of the game by imposing rules YOU want to see.
If you don't like the codex once it comes out, do your own house rules. If you don't want to play someone who doesn't see the army the same way you do, fine, don't play.



Thus, the rules should reflect that Ulthwe is guardian heavy, with few aspects. Donít prevent people from fielding Ulthwe with lots of aspects (free choice). However, write the rules so that most people who are playing Ulthwe will be fielding fluffy forces.


You still have your army, you can still play the way YOU want to play. Don't restrict other's enjoyment of the game by imposing rules YOU want to see.
If you don't like the codex once it comes out, do your own house rules. If you don't want to play someone who doesn't see the army the same way you do, fine, don't play.


For myself and others like us there is no point to having rules at all if they do not follow the fluff. I with the models because it is fun. However, I started buying and continue to buy the models because I like the fluff of the army. The current codex apparently strips much of that uniqueness out by deleting a lot of rules/options/limitations. These where what made the rules fluffy and what I will miss. I can live without them, but I don't like it and reserve the right to grumble at will.


You still have your army, you can still play the way YOU want to play. Don't restrict other's enjoyment of the game by imposing rules YOU want to see.
If you don't like the codex once it comes out, do your own house rules. If you don't want to play someone who doesn't see the army the same way you do, fine, don't play.

Grumble all you like, but don't expect everyone to agree with you. We also reserve the right to grumble about your grumbling.
I agree with your later post.

Its pretty clear where not going to convince each other of our points of view, thus lets just drop it and stop arguing. Itís a bit pointless.

AmasNagol
10-08-2006, 21:03
You can still use all your models in the army. You just might not want to.

Hey at least you didn't lose 2 pts of WS like my Blood Claws did in 3rd Ed

IJW
10-08-2006, 21:44
1.) From the point of view of those of us to whom the fluff is important, the diluting of the character of many Craftworlds is more important to us than all the new options we are getting. Even if they ARE nice in some respects.
Fluff changes. I had 70-80 Eldar models when the aspect warriors and guardians came in, and suddenly my ENTIRE army got nerfed and turned into guardians, and all my heavy weapon-toting or Power Armour wearing models became completely obsolete.

You, on the other hand, are still able play your army in a similar way, and close to the current fluff.

Oh, and my 70+ Harlequin army has been languishing for rather a long time, given that it's opponent's consent only.

You have some valid points, but are overblowing the whole situation.

Inq. Veltane
10-08-2006, 23:32
Fluff changes.

And that, I think, is the key point. Those of us old enough to remember 2nd Edition Eldar (and even RT eldar) recognise that the direction that the eldar were taken in 3rd was actually pretty bad. Ulthwe was not as desperate for troops as certain people have come to think, she still has thousands of Aspect Warriors. We can look at the new eldar lists and see that they are actually closer to the traditional eldar fluff than the '90% of Ulthwe's armies look like...' position is.

I welcome the new direction for eldar because it is a return to the 'good' eldar fluff, to how eldar should be. Those who are only used to 3rd edition and think that Ulthwe is like its being presented in a couple of narrow publications think the new codex is unfluffy. It isn't unfluffy, it is perfectly fluffy - it is actually the current specialised lists that are unfluffy.

Smoking Frog
11-08-2006, 01:09
And that, I think, is the key point. Those of us old enough to remember 2nd Edition Eldar (and even RT eldar) recognise that the direction that the eldar were taken in 3rd was actually pretty bad. Ulthwe was not as desperate for troops as certain people have come to think, she still has thousands of Aspect Warriors. We can look at the new eldar lists and see that they are actually closer to the traditional eldar fluff than the '90% of Ulthwe's armies look like...' position is.

I welcome the new direction for eldar because it is a return to the 'good' eldar fluff, to how eldar should be. Those who are only used to 3rd edition and think that Ulthwe is like its being presented in a couple of narrow publications think the new codex is unfluffy. It isn't unfluffy, it is perfectly fluffy - it is actually the current specialised lists that are unfluffy.

Precisely.

This was the point I tried to make and somehow failed... :(

The Eldar before were a very fluffy Eldar. Ulthwe wages more wars, so its Guardians are on call more often. This doesn't mean that Guardians will always overshadow Aspects or vehicles or even Wraithguard and Dreadnoughts. It certainly doesn't mean they'll be super guardians either. They are Guardians. Backed by a lot of psykers. Intelligent psykers who will put to the field the best tools for the job.

But the beauty of the Eldar way back when is you could field anything. I mean anything. Jetbikes, Wraithguard, Dire Avengers, Guardians, Rangers, Aspect Warriors, they all counted towards Squads, while in Support were the D-cannons and heavy weapon platforms, the Eldar Dreadnought, War Walkers etc. You could field any, I mean ANY, Craftworld you wanted. You could mix and match a few units to represent a particular warhost of a Craftworld, there was no need to field the extreme stereotype that was forced upon us with the C:CE.

That was how it was way back when, when the Eldar made sense and were Eldar. What some don't get is that with the upcoming Eldar, that same flexibility to field our own warhosts that can represent any particular situation, and still have the chance to field the more Stereotypical units without having to face the restrictions or any silly specific rules, is coming back! :D

As some say, I could just go vanilla (with the current rules). Which doesn't work if I want to field something of a Seer Council AND put Warlocks in all of my squads.

Which is why so many of us welcome this change, because its a change back to the good old days, but with new models and 4th Ed rules. The good old days when we could do as we liked, when we could mix and match and choose what we wanted. Believe it or not, but a great deal of people did follow the fluff that was presented, but it didn't limit their choices. :) Just the way it should be.

Why is that so wrong? :angel:

emperorpenguin
26-08-2006, 01:41
With the latest rumours stating that there is in fact NO seer council entry in the new eldar codex I thought it'd be interesting to see what people think now

there was arguing before over black guardians and many saying the seers defined Ulthwe. Well what happens now that Ulthwe lists will apparently have no Seer Councils but instead just pick farseers as normal?

Why Ulthwe? :rolleyes:

I'd understand if pathfinders were left out but they went to the trouble of including uber-rangers to appease alaitoc players, jetbikes to troops for saim-hann and wraithguard as troops option for iyanden.

Why did Ulthwe get such a poor deal?

Venkh
26-08-2006, 02:11
If that rumor is true, then i think you have a fair point. Not a nice thing to do to Ulthwe at all. Hopefully its bunk.

BrainFireBob
26-08-2006, 03:18
Yup, but then every other army can also take the Seer Council. And of course, the Seer Council has now had it's size issue adjusted. Okay, great, I can still field a Seer Council. But a Seer Council does not an Ulthwe Army make. An army based in Guardians, with few Aspect Warriors, lead by a Seer Council an Ulthwe Army makes. Now, tell me, why should I field a Guardian Heavy army in 4th Edition, with the min size of Guardian Squads going up, and them not getting any sort of stat or range boost, when the Guardians will be points that I can't spend on all the other improved Aspect Warrior units. What is there to keep me from fielding an Aspect Heavy army, considering that all the Aspects are going to be kick ass? Yes, I can count Dire Avengers as Black Guardian Defenders, but what about Black Storm Guardians, my favorite unit in the Ulthwe list? Seems to me like the feel of the Ulthwe list won't really be reproducable in the new dex, unlike with all the other craftworlds.


Because it's FLUFFY and you want to play Ulthwe the Damned.

BrainFireBob
26-08-2006, 04:05
Just finished the entire thread.

May I say:

Carl, you stated finally your issue was seeing Ulthwe lists not using Black Guardians. Obviously, people that would make such a switch weren't playing fluffy anyway. So where's the problem?

They only gained Black Guardian improvements in 3rd, less than half the lifetime of Eldar. Now they are going back to Black Guardians that aren't better than normal Guardians. Woohoo. That's not a fluff change. That's the removal of a rules addition that wasn't fluffy in the first place.

Asuril
26-08-2006, 04:10
Okay, let's evaluate the core fluff of Ulthwe the Damned.

They're highly psychic, due to their location near the Eye of Terror. They are constantly at war, and so do not have the resources to call upon many Aspect Warriors. Thus, their civilians have taken up the arms as militia.

That's basically everything.

Okay. Here's probably what the basis of your army will look like with the new 'dex.

HQ:
Farseer or two with council (maybe even 2 of these)

Troops:
Lots of guardians. Maybe a few storm guardian squads in WS's.
Throw in some jetbike squads, too. They're guardians.

Round out the list with some guardian crewed vehicles, and there you go. That much is obvious, I'm sure you could figure it out. That isn't my point.


Here is my point:

To the players who really care about playing Ulthwe for fluff's sake, this is enough. Just like Bel Tian is going to deal with not having a court of the young king. Just like Sam Hain is going to deal without having wild rider chieftans. To the players who play these different craftworlds because they like their history and their style, that is enough. You can simulate their older lists with the new eldar codex. It really is enough.

To the Ulthwe Strike Force players, who seem to be the ones who keep complaining and bringing this matter up, it's probably not so much about the fluff, but the fact that you miss your uber seer councils and your black guardians of free-stat-points, because that is all that has changed. As long as this keeps coming up as an issue, it's just going to remain obvious that that is what the real issue is here.

So, sorry guys, Black guardians no longer have special 'l33t' statline for no extra point cost. The broken HQ is also gone. It's already been banned from tournies, so it's not to much of a step down.

Now, if you evaluate the history of the fluff, it's very obvious to anyone who knows about Ulthwe that their guardians shouldn't be any better than a normal guardian anyway. I know, it's hard to admit that, but it really is true. They just use more of them and have more of them. Strength in numbers. They're still only militia.

Now that you've read my post, just ask yourselves:

Am I angry about the changes for fluff reasons? There's no need to be.
Am I really just angry because they've fixed my broken army list? The new army list has even more cool options for you to make a powerful army, don't worry.

Thanks.

Khornies & milk
26-08-2006, 04:19
Hi

I to have just read the entire thread, and there was some very pertinent, concise, well argued points it there, in great abundance.

But you know what - I think that when the new Codex comes out everyone will get wrapped up in it, and will be excitedly making Army Lists, and planning Paint schemes and everything else thats goes on, and a lot of the negative things will take a back seat (well at least that's what should happen).

On a personal note I'm doing Iyenden, so I'll be as happy as a Pig in S**t!:cool:

cheers

Cheesehead
26-08-2006, 04:28
the issue really isn't with the council, or the nixing of the enhanced stats.

Its really about the squad size and the points required to field a single ranged heavy weapon now. Effectively halving the amount of guardian-based heavies is not going to bode well for those who rely on them to drop the hammer.

THat being said, my army is painted in the ultwe style, but there's no rule that I have to play to the fluff, so I don't.

Da Reddaneks
26-08-2006, 04:38
jeeze the codex is not even out yet. the orks and dark eldar of the universe are crying a river for you.

Cheesehead
26-08-2006, 04:40
jeeze the codex is not even out yet. the orks and dark eldar of the universe are crying a river for you.


They'll probably be waiting just as long as I did for a Vyper model.....

...or as long as I had to wait for a Wave Serpent model.

We all get ignored at one point or another. Take a ticket and wait your turn.

emperorpenguin
26-08-2006, 14:51
To the Ulthwe Strike Force players, who seem to be the ones who keep complaining and bringing this matter up, it's probably not so much about the fluff, but the fact that you miss your uber seer councils and your black guardians of free-stat-points, because that is all that has changed. As long as this keeps coming up as an issue, it's just going to remain obvious that that is what the real issue is here.Thanks.

You really should check your facts first.

1) The USF will still be playable and that list ALLOWS for BS/WS 4 guardians, so that holed your argument. It's the non USF players complaining about the loss of them and USF players (like me) were worried about losing our list.

2) The non USF guardians were BS/WS 4 for FREE. the USF pays for it with a morale limitation.

3) unlike the non USF Ulthwe, the USF is OBLIGED to buy psychic powers and witchblades on its warlocks.

So in other words you're talking a whole load of crap :rolleyes:


The point of reawakening this dormant thread was to discuss the apparent lack of a Seer Council in the new codex. I'm baffled as to why Ulthwe is having its options removed when fanciful stuff like pathfinders were left in

Theadium
26-08-2006, 16:17
Wow, when I originally created this topic, it was an outword frustration I had, and I wasnt sure if anyone else had it. Apparently Black Guardians are more important than I thought. Im not even going to bother reading the whole thread because I almost guarentee its back and forth bickering on whether they should have them or not. Without black Guardians, they may just be a viable choice to guide when not within 12". Look at it like that and its not so bad, or is it?

emperorpenguin
26-08-2006, 16:23
Wow, when I originally created this topic, it was an outword frustration I had, and I wasnt sure if anyone else had it. Apparently Black Guardians are more important than I thought. Im not even going to bother reading the whole thread because I almost guarentee its back and forth bickering on whether they should have them or not. Without black Guardians, they may just be a viable choice to guide when not within 12". Look at it like that and its not so bad, or is it?


I didn't mind losing the black guardians, after all we still had the seer council right?
then we learn oh no we don't!
Saim-Hann gets troop jetbikes, iyanden troop wraithlords, alaitoc troop pathfinders but Ulthwe is forced to field seperate farseers where Space Marines can put librarians and chaplains into a single HQ and still take a commander....

I'm irked..... :mad:

carl
26-08-2006, 16:59
Join the club:D

Eldarin Hope
26-08-2006, 17:15
The background to Ulthwe is that due to the close proximity to the eye of terror a high proportion of its population is engaged in the path of the seer and that due to the length of this path the aspect warrior population of the craftworld is down so they must use a large number of guardians.

Consider it should be possible to have 2 farseers, 29 warlocks and guardians in troops, fast attack and heavy support and its clear that you can still build a force which follows the background to the letter

Also take into account that Farseers are better, Fire prisms are better, Vypers will be cheaper, Falcons will be cheaper, War walkers are better and cheaper, Jetbikes are cheaper

balance that against losing 2 units of enhanced guardians and having a max of 2 farseers which take up both HQ squads and its still a very favourable comparison

carl
26-08-2006, 17:29
The point is though that Ulthwe has MORE seers than any other craftwolrd. If other craftworlds can eaisily get the same number they are not special any more.

Plus guardians are usless under the new rules so it's all a moot point anyway. Ulthwe is officolly dead as a Unique and diffrent army.

emperorpenguin
26-08-2006, 17:37
The point is though that Ulthwe has MORE seers than any other craftwolrd. If other craftworlds can eaisily get the same number they are not special any more.

Plus guardians are usless under the new rules so it's all a moot point anyway. Ulthwe is officolly dead as a Unique and diffrent army.


agreed. Guardians are meat shields nothing more.

When this thread first started people said "quit whining, guardians weren't what made Ulthwe special it was the seers and you still get the council"

Well now we don't so we're a bit miffed. Any eldar army can as carl says take as many farseers. If we play to fluff then we can't field a phoenix lord/avatar/autarch

I think a lot of people are underplaying the loss of the craftworlds. Considering the 'whining' from Ork players about losing their klans in 3rd

it's funny how it's always 'whining' isn't it. I guess the uproar over the FAQs was whining too. funny how no one ever has a legitimate complaint on Warseer, but then again it's **** easy to slag off someone from the comfort and safety of your own pc.....

Eldarin Hope
26-08-2006, 17:57
sorry, but i think that is missing the entire point of the new list

You can build any crafworld using the exact same list, so every craftworld can have the exact same number of everything - it is then up to you to theme your own army

The option is there to build a stereotypical list from any craftworld, but it is equally possible to build an aspect heavy Ulthwe list led by 2 farseers if you so desire - its an increadibly liberated list

Fancy playing the baran war? (the campaign featured in swordwind expansion from epic) Fine, you can play a biel-tan list where wraithguard are your troops, you can have an autarch themed to be fire dragon-like and your elites/fast attack can be the small number of aspect warriors he managed to bring with him

Also, i dont accuse you of whinning, im just putting forward my take on the situation :)

emperorpenguin
26-08-2006, 18:02
I take your point about the fluidity of the list but as I said earlier

SH jetbikes moved to troops
A pathfinders moved to troops
I wraithguard moved to troops (option)

they all kept their structure from CCWE

I am baffled as to why Marines get 6 codices plus traits to build famous chapters but no set of guidelines was included in the new dex

I can see orks getting no klan options either and with the trend in fantasy too it seems GW is just doing away with all themed forces.

Eldarin Hope
26-08-2006, 18:20
yup, but Ulthwe didnt need any moving around to keep their structure

I think you will see Ulthwe players move to 2 seperate Farseers (perhaps with minimal warlock bodyguard due to the expense) rather quickly, rather than join them together in a council - gives much greater tactical flexability

there will also be different types of uthwe army:

HQ - Farseers w/ Warlocks fitted on bikes
Troops - Storm guardians mounted in Waveserpents and Jetbikes (even Defenders in WS if platforms can be transported)
Fast attack - Vypers
Heavy Support - Prisms and Falcons

will result in a highly mobile army

HQ - Farseers
Troops - Defender Platforms
Heavy Support - War Walkers and Support Platforms

will give a static army capable of throwing out amazing amounts of firepower from an established firebase ... also having some great counter attacking units available

I hope orks get the same treatment as Eldar, Each craftworld can be built to be devastating and theres a vanilla option available to build almost anything a reasonable mind could want - if the orks get anywhere near that they should be as happy as a boy in hth ;)

EDIT: i really wouldnt wish the marine treatment on Eldar or Orks, meaningly differentiation for the sake of sales would be a fate worse than death

sneb
26-08-2006, 18:47
The Ulthwe strikeforce will still be a viable list though which I found more to the fluff the the CWE codex list if thats what your worried about

Overlord Krycis
26-08-2006, 19:05
I thought the Ulthwe Strikeforce was no-longer Tournament-legal...
Ergo...not really a viable list if you ever want to play in a tournie...

Or certain GWs.


Overlord Krycis

insectum7
27-08-2006, 04:32
Another way to look at this, is that because of the useability of more units and the increased flexibility of the purported new lists, people are freer to experiment with their armies once they commit to a color scheme. I think that it'll be nice when those who want to take lots of jetbikes or vypers aren't required to paint them bright red. Or that one can field lots of wraithlords and wraithguard without having to paint them in the ugliest scheme known to mankind.

Whereas there is alot of encouragement in the marine community to make ones own chapter, I think the Eldar suffer from focussing on only a few defined craftworlds, and alot of people pigeonhole themselves based on some colors. The newest codex seems to allow more freedom in making armies, and at the same time subtley encourages players to begin using some new color schemes.

Now I realize this is a bit of an off topic argument, but I for one would like to see more color schemes on those miniatures, because the models are great.

For Ulthwe specific stuff, I can't really imagine those guardian models becoming useless, guardians still exist obviously, and they can still perform an important role in an army.

That and the Codex isn't even out yet... gad talk about some space pansies:)

BrainFireBob
27-08-2006, 04:37
Carl:

Ulthwe existed for years before they gained their Black Guardians with improved Stats, and a non-improved Seer Council. They were a theme that fluff- dedicated players could use, and a color scheme.

Then they had the other stuff for awhile.

Now it's gone- since the other stuff didn't make Ulthwe in the first place, why do they lose their identity if it goes away? Since their identity didn't depend on them anyway.

Elanthanis
27-08-2006, 04:52
Ulthwe=not screwed.

Ulthwe=has more options than ever before, and now even has access to potentially the true most powerful psychers in the game.

Killgore
27-08-2006, 12:15
no way is Ulthwe screwed

I'm sure you could fiddle the new army list to make a rather typical Ulthwe army

I collect Ulthwe and have a sizable amount of Guardians painted, but I'll still use them, just meens i get to play about with more aspect warriors ^_^

Tooooon
27-08-2006, 12:27
Also another thing everyone is forgetting is that the Ulthwe list in the Eye of Codex is still legal....

Not tourny legal, but still legal none the less..... ;) But I DO feel for Ulthwe in a sense that when they released black guardians GW made tons of articles about them and such in WD, and encouraged you to buy them, then 3years later say they are overpowered so nerf them so now you have to spend more money on gw.

~Dave

emperorpenguin
27-08-2006, 13:59
no way is Ulthwe screwed

I'm sure you could fiddle the new army list to make a rather typical Ulthwe army

I collect Ulthwe and have a sizable amount of Guardians painted, but I'll still use them, just meens i get to play about with more aspect warriors ^_^


except having aspect warriors goes against the fluff

an excerpt from the new codex I was sent by a.n.onymus
"Though the battle-psykers of Ulthwe have made their armies mighty indeed, continued reliance upon them has left the craftworld lacking in Aspect Warriors. The Path of the Seer is the longest and most treacherous, leaving little time for an Eldar to focus on the Path of the Warrior. It is for this reason that, unlike its sister craftworlds, Ulthwe maintains a large standing army of Guardians."

(page 18)

IJW
27-08-2006, 17:27
except having aspect warriors goes against the fluff
Having a lot of aspect warriors goes against the fluff. The background has never said that Ulthwe has no aspect warriors at all, just that they are a small proportion compared to other craftworlds.

Given the tiny size of most 40k games it would be easy to field mostly aspect warriors and justify it fluff-wise as a special force put together for a specific objective. Doing it on a regular basis and claiming to be Ulthwe would be another matter...

Dooks Dizzo
27-08-2006, 17:43
I have an idea for Ulthwe players:

Dooks Dizzo's rules for the new USF

Seer counsel
0-1
up to 3 farseers and 10 warlocks

*A seer counsel takes up 2 HQ slots

Black Guardians
Squad size: 10+
10 pts per model
+10 points to weapon platform costs listed in the codex

In an ulthwe Strike Force all Compulsory Troop slots must be filled by Black Guardians

In addtion, for every Farseer in the army an additional unit of black guardians must be fielded beyond the compulsory 2 units. ie, if an Ulthwe force contains 3 farseers it must have 5 squads of Black Guardians.

All aspects including Dire Avengers are 0-1 in a USF.

Tooooon
27-08-2006, 18:04
Like I keep saying, EOT is still legal ;)

~Dave

pantera
27-08-2006, 19:31
Wow, Ive just spent the past hour reading this thread through, and now I want my 2cents posted. There has been so much bloody bickering back and forth, and sadly 90% of it seems to revolve around Ulthwe. It seems Im of the small percentage thats played Ulthwe since 2nd edition (maybe Im wrong, sorry). Due to this, Im not crying at losing BS4/ WS4 guardians. Whatever, I survived without them before, i can now. Seer councils as we know it getting nerfed, yea that kinda sucks, but now we have the potential to be more tactical with 2 smaller councils. And believe me, my seers as they stand now are very tooled up, none of this boxing warlock crap.

Theres so much arguing saying that Ulthwe is now going to be aspect heavy, etc, etc. Are we really looking at the big picture here? If I were to field 2 defender units of 22 (weapons platform) then field a full unit of jetbikes (10 guardians) 3 d-cannons and warwalkers, then decide to field 3 units of aspects (30 models), would I be deemed "unfluffy". My guardians are still outnumbering the aspects significantly. Its not a full guardian army, but then again 2nd edition was never about that. This edition is fixing what Gav broke, and returning to aspects being front liners. Doesnt mean that Ulthwe cant field lots of guardians, theres just other ways.