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Peachy
09-08-2006, 11:10
Thinking of trying a Slaanesh beasts army with lots of monsters and am wanting a shaggoth in there, maybe even a shaggoth champion. I've never played against one of these before but have heard they're not very good, mainly because you can't give them magic items. Just wondering what others have found - are shaggoths that bad or should I go for a doombull general instead?

StormCrow
09-08-2006, 11:14
I've only played one game with a shaggoth, 2v2 1000 points per player....that shaggoth and a chaos champ proceeded to wipe out a full force of dwarves and bretonnians almost single handedly

so to summarise, i think they are very good

Neknoh
09-08-2006, 11:14
No, they are NOT that bad.

Check the link in my sig, although I have yet to update the WIP site, I DO have three parts of my Tactica Chaotica there, and in there, you should find a nice little part about Shaggoths, The Ancient Ones

librerian_samae
09-08-2006, 11:16
They arnet that bad especially in a slaanesh army as a shaggoth champion when they can be given a great weapon and the mark of slaanesh and always strike first.

Parka boy
09-08-2006, 11:16
Who said they were bad?

Voltaire
09-08-2006, 11:54
Theres a general feeling (especially at the COTEC) that Shaggoths are not worth the effort simply because they seem to be outclassed by the likes of Giants and Hellcannons as choices for a special in a Chaos army. I personally have no experience of them but would imagine with their stat-line and immunity to Lightning, they would be a very useful unit, especially against Skaven.

CarlostheCraven
09-08-2006, 12:44
The problem with Shaggoths is that you could nearly have 4 normal Dragon Ogres for his points cost, which gives you way more wounds and attacks for slightly lower ST and T, and more survivablity VS cannon toting armies, provided you do not allow him to go bowling for dragon ogres.

If you make him a champion - Slaanesh is the only way to go - you lose the ability to ambush with the rest of your beastmen. This may or may not matter to you depending on the style of army you are building.

On the other hand, the model is gorgeous, probably my favourite large warhammer monster (the manticore comes close). If I played beast of chaos I would definitely own, and maybe even use, one myself just for the looks...

Cheers

Neknoh
09-08-2006, 13:12
Yes, but, after four wounds, that Dragon Ogre unit looses a LOT of it's damage output.

Dragon Ogres also have a worse save
Have worse Weaponskill
Don't cause Terror
Aren't immune to Psychology
And doesn't wheel like a single monster, effectively moving as Fast Cavalry.

And no, I don't want to speculate further on this subject on which is better, simply because there is no "better" option, perhaps there are better options for different roles, but, they do different things entirely. So, let's just say that both Shaggoths and Dragon Ogres are good

TheWarSmith
09-08-2006, 13:39
Biggest problem with the Shaggoth vs. giant is that the giant can lose combat and stick around, where the shaggoth will run like a bitch if he loses. And when he loses, it's usually by a large margin so off he goes. Watching this huge scary thing run away and have to rally is really quite sad.

4 dragon ogres are 160mm wide, which is quite a lot to deal with when wheeling around and stuff of that nature. That's where the shaggoth does have the advantage over his smaller friends.

that being said he needs a dramatic point reduction or something to boost him above the ranks of other rare choices. Drop his points by about 75 or let him always be a champion w/out it counting as a lord choice.

CarlostheCraven
09-08-2006, 13:47
Yes, but, after four wounds, that Dragon Ogre unit looses a LOT of it's damage output.

Lol, yeah somewhere in the range of 100%

Cheers

TheWarSmith
09-08-2006, 14:01
4 dragon ogres also can have tough times with how many models are in base to base contact.

For example, if a shaggoth charges ranked infantry, lets say spearmen, he'll only get 4 guys attacking him, where the dragon ogre unit will get the full brunt of all the spears due to being wider.

I wouldn't compare the shaggoth to dragon ogres, I'd compare him to the giant. the M7 really helps, as well as the 3+ armor save so he can't be skinked to death as easily, but he still has big problems.

Neknoh
09-08-2006, 14:49
NO!

Do not EVER compare a Shaggoth to a Giant, their roles are EVEN MORE different!

A Giant is a Tarpit, a Shaggoth is a precision tool!

TheWarSmith
09-08-2006, 14:52
lol, I'll remember that when I market my "shaggoth brand pin vice".

I just rarely run the shaggoth because I agree with you that he has to be used a lot more carefully, but there are so many other things in the army that can replace him, where the giant isn't really replacable in a chaos army.

You pay a lot of points for a unit that has limited utility in my mind. True, the giant isn't as dependable as the shaggoth so can't be used for things where certainty is more desired(he can do TONS more damage, or virtually none), but the giant is so much more flexible in use than the shaggoth.

Neknoh
09-08-2006, 14:58
¤sigh¤ I take it you never checked my sig, ah well, here is the tactica I wrote on Shaggoths a while back.

Bathed in lightning, awakened by storms, comming from the darkest hearts of the forrests and the highest peaks of the mountains to aid our armies in times of need, the ancient Shaggoths joins our ranks.

When you go asking on these forums on wether or not you should use a Shaggoth, the answer is almost unanimous and as good as always the very same three words: "No, it sucks!"

However, this is not the case i you use this beast properly, for it WILL wreck havoc when you muster the wisdom required to use it properly.

A lot of people claim Shaggoths to suck badly due to several reasons, but, the most common one being that a Giant does the job better for 100 points less, this is where their logic is greatly flawed, for lo, the Shaggoth is NOT a Giant and is not supposed to be and act as one either, if that was the case, they would have had two differently prised creatures with the same statline and the same special abillities.


When using a Shaggoth, it is indeed tempting to charge units head-on, seeing as a Giant can do it, a Shaggoth should be able to? Right?
I think not.

A Giant is used in order to pin a unit in place and hopefully spread massive destruction, it might even do a bodyslam on the enemy.

A Shaggoth cannot EVER expect a win aggainst a fully ranked unit unless it is armed with an Additional handweapon, in which case, you have to hit and wound with every attack and the enemy have to fail all of their saves, this gives you a CR of 6, just enough to outweigh that of even a unit of Skaven Slaves or Nightgobblins.

A Shaggoth is not a stubborn tarpit able to bodyslam units, a Shaggoth is a sledgehammer that can do some serius damage when hitting the correct spot on the enemy.

Unlike a Giant, a Shaggoth have a fixed ammount of attacks, this can be very nice when using him in a combined charge, for you know your chances of hitting and wounding and can reasonably predict the outcome of the battle, whilst a Giant might simply try to pick up one of those Witch Elves, get wounded and loose this one attack.

And, not only does the Shaggoth have a fixed ammount of attacks, it boasts with something the Giant will never have, an Armoursave that can actually withstand a round of Skink Blowpipe Madness or Dwarf/Wood Elven missilefire (sure, a Greatcannon or two will put a hole in it... but it would also put a hole in a Dragon).

The Shaggoth also have a Movement Value that is far greater than that of the Giant, even if it is a measly one inch, that extra point of Movement allows it to both Flee and Pursue 3D6 instead of 2, allowing it to run down big blocks which it has broken in combat. That extra move also places it on par with most units of Heavy Cavalry, something the Beasts of Chaos sometimes struggle to overcome, but, when the enemy cavalry can charge your Shaggoth, you can charge them.

Even if the Shaggoth would be charged by Knights, it would statistically save every 3rd wound from strength 5 hits, forcing the enemy to plow in with arround 8 wounds, which means 16 attacks, or rather, 32 attacks, however, a Giant that does not have a save is a lot easier to wound with a chargin unit of Knights, and, when that Shaggoth is still allive after the Charge, it unleashes its five attacks at strength 7, which is just brutal to Knights.

What also must be remembered is the fact that the Shaggoths are immune to Lightning based attacks, meaning that half of the feared SAD army barrage dissapears and that any lunatic Seer Council with Heavens Lore suddenly have a lot less hurt comming your Shaggoth's way.

I have seen many a giant drop dead as pincushions or electricuted, this is something that won't happen to the Shaggoth.


Now, the tactics for using a Shaggoth.

Remember young foerender, that even if these ancient creatures takes up one Special Choice, they are acceptable into an army, for us Beasts of Chaos have as good as everything we need in our Core section, and, on the offhand chance that our army would be led by a Doombull instead of a Beastlord, we do free up some special choices to aid us even greater.

A Shaggoths two worst enemies when allone are Ranked Infantry and Warmachines, however, Warmachines can be dealt with through ambushing (or, in the case of a Doombull army, some Furies or Screamers).

It is the ranked up units that have to be dealt with.

A Shaggoth cannot take a ranked unit head on, this has been said, however, I guess I did not tell you the entire truth.

A Shaggoth have a nice chance of actually staying put if loosing by only 1 or 2 points (however, I wouldn't reckomend going commando and solo-charging a unit if your Shaggoth is wielding a Greatweapon).

So, a Shaggoth might succeed in pinning the enemy in place, and, when the second turn comes, there is hopefully one rank less in the unit.
However, this is not the way I use my Shaggoth(s) in games.

The Shaggoth can act very nicely as a team killer, if you charge a unit with both a Shaggoth and a Beastherd, you start the combat out with a CR of 3 aggainst their 5 (you might even outnumber, making it 4 vs 4) and then commes the attacks of the Shaggoth. This often makes for some very dead enemies and a Shaggoth at the rearguard of your opponent, ready to take on any juicy flanks and rears.

This brings me to the best use of Shaggoths, flanking.
A Shaggoth is essentially a slightly more expensive Lord of Chaos with a bit lower WS and Initiative, however, it can break ranks.
That, coupled with Movement 7 makes this creature able to roll through a battle line once in a good position, even more capable if given an additional handweapon for 6 (or 7 if hit by lightning) attacks, slamming into a flank and breaking ranks, this puts the Shaggoth up aggainst a Combat Resolution of 2 rather than 5, a number he is much more likely to kill enough to win over.

The Shaggoth is also great for intimidating opponents and can be made into a centerpiece of your army without all too much converting, all that is required is just a bit more time put into the beast than your other models.

However, there are also some fun and yet strategical uses for Shaggoths other than flanking and supporting.

When facing Ogre Kingdoms or all cavalry lists, a tag team of two Shaggoths will make sure the enemy stays far away from your army, for having two Shaggoths charge a unit with little to no ranks often means certain death for the enemy unit, heck, they might even kill enough to beat a fully ranked unit and run it down, remember, combined, they have Unit Strength 12 and cause Terror, so they can even autobreak cavalry units.


And remember young one, we must not forget the mighties of the Ancient Ones, the Shaggoth Champions of the four gods, mightier creatures than these are hard to find in this world of old.

The Shaggoth Champion is not your ideal general, however, when playing games at the level of 3.000 points or more, you will find that a Shaggoth Champion can turn the tide of battle in your favour.
Sure, if you still want to ambush, you will need to have either Gorthor or Khazarack on your side of the field so that they can lead the army onwards, otherwise, a Doombull or Daemonprince makes for a general that is a bit more survivable and confers some nifty bonuses to your army.

The different marks of the Ancient Ones:

Mark of Nurgle:
This suddenly turns a creature that is hard to kill into a creature that is VERY hard to kill, with 7 wounds and the abillity to challenge, this beast can take out a LOT of enemy Lord level characters without fear of being hacked to pieces, it can even withstand a lucky roll from a Greatcannon or a battery of smaller ones/Bolt Throwers.

Mark of Khorne:
Frenzy is always fun, give the creature an Additional handweapon and it will most probably be able to dish out a LOT of punishment in close combat, however, if he runs off charging a fully ranked unit, the possabillity of him loosing is still there, unless you are indeed lucky and brings six new skulls to the throne of Khorne.

Mark of Tzeentch:
Sometimes, it might feel like paying a lot for something that might not even be good, and I hear you, at level two with the Tzeentchian lore, this beast isn't greatly changed, however, on the offhand chance of rolling either Orange Fire or Yellow Fire, this is a VERY interesting mark to try out once in a while, a Shaggoth with the abillity to reroll all failed dice or boasting a 5+ Wardsave makes for very evil happenings on the field of battle.

Mark of Slaanesh:
Deffinately the most favoured of the marks and people preferably use this with a Greatweapon as well, striking first with 5 strength 7 attacks can make for nasty stuff to happen aggainst unsuspecting knights.


The basic equipment:

Lightarmour is a must, no questions asked.

However, when it comes to choice of arms, it's all up to what type of role the Shaggoth mostly should play in the game, should it mostly be a flanker, can opener or support charger?

If mostly Flanker, an Additional Handweapon is warmly reckomended, for the can-opener, there isn't much that can argue with a Greatweapon, and for a supporter, well, it's just a matter of how you like your Shaggoth modeled (and it is indeed a DAMN GOOD model).


Now young one, go forth and unleash the stormrage of the Shaggoths upon this Old World, the lands Nippon, India, Cathay and the Southlands. The lands of Lustria, Naggaroth and Ulthuan.
Bring doom to your foes with the aid of the Ancient Ones.



And you can find a further discussion on them here http://s2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=5781

Neknoh
09-08-2006, 15:03
Oh please, this discussion is NOT about What is Better Than A Shaggoth, the discussion is wether or not the Shaggoth really is as bad as people say it is.
Carlos, do you regularly field a Shaggoth in your army?

DeathMasterSnikch
09-08-2006, 15:07
I imagine flank/rear charges would be quite devestating Vs units that need rank bonus to win?

CarlostheCraven
09-08-2006, 18:24
No, I do not field a shaggoth with any regularity. I know that it does not have the same purpose as a giant or dragon ogres. However, given the role it has, I would choose to spend my points/rare slots on other things.

Of course, without using it, grasping how powerful it truly can be is difficult (Maneaters are a good example of this. Very expensive on paper, but well worth it on the battlefield). I do think that it is a good choice, a powerful unit to be sure, but not one that makes the cut when I sit down and write a list.

(I had another post I was going to put up, but Neknoh's lengthy tactica, which was not up when I initially posted it, more than sufficiently addressed the value of a shaggoth)

Cheers

Neknoh
09-08-2006, 19:00
Indeed.

The thing with Dragon Ogres is that you can have Chosen Knights instead for same damage output but less frontage, you can have two Spawns instead of one Giant, but, really, Marauder Horsemen and Shaggoths are used for the same role, but still used in completely different ways, Marauder Horsemen almost always end up in throwaway situations, where you sacrifice them, Shaggoths end up in situations where they simply start tearing away at rank and file soldiers instead, pinning very big and very expensive units down, like the otherday, he got stuck in a large unit of Kotr's flank and chomped away at them whilst the poor damsel in the middle of the unit couldn't do a thing.

And that, gentlemen, is what is called a Kinderegg Suprise for Shaggoths in Slaaneshi armies (not Champion mind you), crunchy and tasty on the outside and a toy inside :evilgrin:

Nkari
10-08-2006, 12:34
3 reasons that makes the shaggoth not worth it..

1: You get 4 dragon Ogres with great weapons for the same price

2: If you give him a mark he takes up your LORD slot..

3: A giant does about the same thing as he does for less pts, and no LORD slot. Allso the Giant can be used for more roles than a 300 pt precition tool..


A reason or two for using the shaggoth, You like the model, or you dont use your LORD slot for something useful.. =)

Neknoh
10-08-2006, 20:00
. . . must. halt. urge. to. kill....

A giant can NOT do the same thing as a Shaggoth!

Lardidar
10-08-2006, 20:35
. . . must. halt. urge. to. kill....

A giant can NOT do the same thing as a Shaggoth!

Don't halt that feeling, let it flow.

Now for my reason why the Shaggoth don't suck ......... They look so fricking cool!

I don't care what the rules are, I don't care if I could get 4 dragon ogres for less (I may take them aswell as they are cool looking too) all I care is that army looks pretty.

If my miniature don't look cool then I begin to realise that I spend most of my spare time playing with toys and then I have to lay down and cry.

Voltaire
10-08-2006, 20:39
The model alone is justification to include it in an army.

TheWarSmith
10-08-2006, 20:45
Neknoh, we're not saying that the giant can do the shaggoth's role better than him.

What I'm trying to say is that the giant has more overall utility and function compared to the shaggoth. Yes, if you need to go chariot thumping or character killing, a shaggoth is usually a better bet. But, the shaggoth as you mention fails miserably against ranked infantry with any kind of decent numbers(unless he takes the flank).

But, in my opinion, the giant can squeeze into a larger variety of positions and adapt to different combat situations a bit better than the shaggoth can. It's kind of like the difference between a sniper rifle and a field rifle. The sniper is MUCH better at what it's meant to do, but the field rifle can do a variety of tasks at a moderate level.

gjnoronh
10-08-2006, 20:58
That's my feeling as well.

Pick up and ___i s a bit second rate of a giant attack, but yell and brawl and sweep/thump with club are going to get you at least as good CR changes as a shaggie.

On the other hand a Giant fighting 40mm infantry (ogres etc) is probably going to do much worse than a shaggie.

I think MoS and MoT however can make the shaggie another world of hurt compared to a giant. As you noted rerolls or a ward save on a shaggoth are quite amusing.

Voltaire
11-08-2006, 17:40
The Shaggoth shows the specialisation of Chaos in that it has a role to fulfil and that role is something it does exceptionally well, evenmore so than other armies units that have the same role.

Can you take a Shaggoth & a Giant in the same army?

Neknoh
11-08-2006, 17:45
Yes

It will cost you an arm and a leg, but, with two Rare choices and a free Special, it is possible

However, what I love is the Two Shaggoth Tag Team
that's ten strength seven attacks and they'll ripp through most things ogre-sized and smaller units on their own.

Remember, they're also US12 and Terror causers

Voltaire
11-08-2006, 19:42
The Shaggoth tag team is something I think I would only consider in a 3000 point game to be honest. It seems expensive and would definitely give my enemy something to lurch at, but sacrificing two special slots is something I'm not prepared to do. I would prefer to be able to field some extra beast heards or daemons in my Mortal Army.
That being said, the psychological advantage of seeing two shaggoths makes it worth the investment on its own.

Fredrik
13-08-2006, 15:16
I agree with the 4 Dragon ogres being better every day. Itīs not that the Shaggoth is bad itīs just way to overpriced. You can get better stuff for the same price. 4 dragon ogres can loose one snd still be better then the Shaggoth both in staying power and killing power. And that to me sums upp that he is not worth the points.

TheWarSmith
13-08-2006, 15:33
Ahh, but 4 dragon ogres are not easy to maneuvre as the shaggoth is with his ability to wheel for free.

Fredrik
14-08-2006, 19:47
But on the other hand 4 dragon ogres don´t need as much maneuvering as a shaggoth. They are more like block ( with 12 st 7 attacks nore shall they on average beat a full CR but the diff is way less ) and they are more likely to force your op to compensate for. They can do whatever a shaggoth can do but better. They also fill more rolls.

But like most people seem to be split up into it´s just too cool not too use and the too expensive. In my boook he is to expensive since there are better options for the same price, if he where to be worth his points he would need something to ward off cannons like a 5+ wardsave like the treeman or something. As it stands now it is not worth the points.

P.S It is a really cool model i will be getting one for my army to use in larger games just for the coolness :)

Latro
14-08-2006, 20:46
I don't need no stinking Giant mucking things up! What can it do? ... hold up an infantry regiment on it's own and not run. Wow ... just what I always wanted ... holding up an infantry regiment and not running. :eyebrows:

Maybe it's just the raging Khornate lunatic inside of me ... but simply "hilding and not running" is not what I'm looking for. I expect to slam into those cowering bloodbags and go right through them!

Chaaaarge the Knights into the enemy!

... bring on the Shaggoth!

... swing it around the flanks!

... let the blood flow!

*mutters something about no big unwashed brute stuffing something down his pants in this army!*


:evilgrin: