PDA

View Full Version : Men of Stone, Men of Iron Myth?



schoon
09-08-2006, 14:55
Does anyone have any clarification on the Men of Stone / Men of Iron myth (in as much as it might be a victim of GW's fluff development).

Here's how I "understand" it:

M20-ish: Legends tell that the Golden Race of Men had become dependent on the Stone Race of Men and their artifices, and as such the Stone Men prevail (?!?). Sometime within the next 5000 years the Men of Stone create the Iron Men to help in the building of their Empire.

M25-ish: Stone Men and Iron Men fall into warring with each other. The Iron Men have no soul, and the Stone Men, in a final act of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men, including those that had remained loyal. Thus, the Age of Strife began.

Now, I know that this has nothing to do with the Necrons, as their main history happened way before any of this.

I've heard theories that "Stone Men" is an allegory for genetically modified humans in the Golden Age of Technology, but nothing to really back it up. The above would imply then, that genetically modified humans prevailed over normal ones, and thus they are the primogenitors of current citizens.

Anyone have some insight here?

Norminator
09-08-2006, 15:24
I personally thinl that Stone Men are modern humans as well as humans of the 41st millenium. Golden Men, IMO, are more highly evolved humans - possibly stable psykers with better abilities in pretty much everything. The Emperor was implied to be one of these - I have a pet theory that the primarch program was infact aimed at reintroducing golden men to the human gene pool.

my_name_is_tudor
09-08-2006, 15:37
I always took it to be even less solid than that. Men of Stone and Gold were all the same, just normal humans. Men of Gold were just the visionaries, who saw past the immediate technological empire (almost like people worrying about the environment and what have you nowadays, while others keep their noses buried in industrialism).

After the Iron Men went and kicked ****, 'Stone Men' became a sort of.. depreciative term used to describe the people whom were thought responsible for this warring. The survivors, regardless of genetics, or whatever, became known as Golden Men, or something similar. As they out of optimism considered the crumbling of that Empire to be the begining of a new Golden Age of Man.. (perhaps an ironic reference to the Golden Age of Technology which was so clearly just gilded)

Commander Ozae
09-08-2006, 15:43
I remember reading somewhere that the Golden Men were supposedly superior to the Stone Men in every way and they were wiped out in the war. Anyway, as this has come up before, the current theory is that the Golden Men were the aristocracy who had better eductaion and access to science that improved their lives.

Kjell
09-08-2006, 15:52
The Stone Men knew how something worked, the Golden Men knew why it worked. That's the biggest difference as far as I know. :)

Ikkaan
09-08-2006, 16:20
Several possible explanations are possible. One is that the golden men were just more susceptible to mutation and not able to enter cryosleep. The emperor was in all aspects more than a golden man, so he is excepted from this theory.

Stone Men were not as psychic as the golden men, but had a more stable genetical compositure. They also were able to enter cryosleep for extended durations. This would explain the low number of emerging psykers in the population.

Iron Men were machines; supposed to help the stone men with their colonization of project. If the rebellion came from simple ambition or chaos influence is a matter of personal taste. Gaunts Ghosts once found a chaos-infested STC that produced iron men, but this could also have been a single incident.

athamas
09-08-2006, 16:25
men of stone = humans

men of iron = their robotic slaves

men of iron went bad and attacked the men of stone, but lost...

hence the reason for no AI in imperial tech...

Iuris
09-08-2006, 16:25
Personally, I suspect it's all a metaphor of GW's switching the material the minis are made of...

Luke
09-08-2006, 16:29
I opened up a huge and succesful thread abuot this ages ago. Im far too lazy to actually dredge up a link for you but in the end what it all boiled down to was


men of stone = humans

men of iron = their robotic slaves

men of iron went bad and attacked the men of stone, but lost...

hence the reason for no AI in imperial tech...

All happening towards the end of the dark age of technology. Then possibly as a result of the Iron men all being eradicated (every last one , loyal or not) the alien races poured down on humanity whilst it was undefended.


And there really is NOTHING more substantial after this except half arsed accounts someone read in WD XX "I think" etc etc.





EDIT -----

Oh ok , http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17131&highlight=iron here it is. peruse at your leisure.

nurgleman
09-08-2006, 17:37
Ummm problem is that the men of stone where created by humanity, so it doesn't work. Thats what it said in a short story in let the galaxy burn.

Mother_Mercy
09-08-2006, 17:47
Keep in mind that the entire "Golden men, stone men" thing is supposedly written by a religious scholar who had had the story handed down for thousands of generations, trying to explain something that *supposedly* happened tens of thousands of years ago.

As such, the entire story has as much in common with what actually happened during the DAoT as the Book of Genesis has in common with how mankind was actually created.

Terminatorphoenix
09-08-2006, 18:10
i didn't think that gold,stone,iron men thing was still cannon

ML Kurze
09-08-2006, 18:41
This discussion usually pops up every couple of months, so I've added fluff and information in my sig (see below). It's compiled from official fluff and Black Library novel information. It's the most complete list I've been able to create and should help anyone with questions.
Hope this helps.

Edit: for those lazy gits among us :p

Page 1: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=331649&postcount=12
Page 2: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332034&postcount=23
Page 3: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332693&postcount=26
Page 4: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=334662&postcount=41

LastLaugh
09-08-2006, 19:04
I read somewher that the emperor was the first of the New Men who were created by loads of shamans merging there phsycic power (or something like that) to create a new race of humans The New Men but the new race was weak so the emperor hid away till it was strong. or something (It's probably all wrong so don't moan at me if it is)

ML Kurze
09-08-2006, 19:10
I read somewher that the emperor was the first of the New Men who were created by loads of shamans merging there phsycic power (or something like that) to create a new race of humans The New Men but the new race was weak so the emperor hid away till it was strong. or something (It's probably all wrong so don't moan at me if it is)
Not quite, it's kinda yes and no. First the yes: according to old fluff the Emperor was born out of many old Shamans merging together to help humanity. However, it seems that the new version of the fluff doesn't record his birth, but what it does record is his birth in Anatolia.
The no: he is the only New Men, or better, a New Man. There is no other like the Emperor, which makes him something of a god since he is alone at the top of humanity.

La'mour Le Breton
09-08-2006, 21:10
The golden men were considered to be todays humans, smart, physicaly strong, and not superstitious. they understood the laws of nature and their own technology. they couldn't however, travel the stars because their bodys could take the strains of prolonged space travel. IE they couldn't reproduce a thousand times a thousand times without suffering mutatation. so the created the stone men to be hardy, geneticly stable people and sent them to seach the stars. after a while the golden men built giant cryo-ships and went into space but by then the stone men were too successful the golden men were fazed out through natural selection

ML Kurze
10-08-2006, 16:49
That's what the sources tell us.

FlashGordon
10-08-2006, 19:02
men of stone = humans

men of iron = their robotic slaves

men of iron went bad and attacked the men of stone, but lost...

hence the reason for no AI in imperial tech...

Well actually, there are Ai in imperial technology, what do you think The "Machine spirits" are?

Stone men clearly are the Predecessors of The Mechanicum.
Im not too sure about the Golden men, but they seem to little more than normal humans.
The third ed. rulebook talks about the Goldden men as a part of the "first age of man", what does this meen? That "we" are part of the Golden men?
Could the stone men be "future" space travelers, the first ones to colonise Mars perhaps? or even their descendants? Indeed there are Marvels of technology hidden beneath mars surface...

ML Kurze
10-08-2006, 19:17
Well actually, there are Ai in imperial technology, what do you think The "Machine spirits" are?
In essence, Servitors. Think of it like a pet, since that's what it is. Biological components with electronical equipment wired into it to help it function. It is not an AI. They are outlawed and can not be found anywhere in the Imperium. Even the great Space Torpedos function with tiny computers, not AI machines. If there are AI's in the Imperium, they would be within the domain of the Mechanicus and they aren't talking.


Stone men clearly are the Predecessors of The Mechanicum.
No, they're not. The predescessors of the Mechanicum are the cults that were founded on Mars when the atmosphere started to peel off into space (edit: this was during the Age of Strife). The Stone Men were great with technology though and it was them who created the Navigators, the first Warp drive, STC and everything that can be found in the Imperial Armoury of 40k. However, they also colonised the many planets, founded many cultures and explored. It wasn't just tech that was their legacy.


Im not too sure about the Golden men, but they seem to little more than normal humans.
Correct. The people we are to become, those of 2k, are to become the Golden Men! They were known for philosophy, the first space ships (cold ships), the creation of the Stone Men and ultimately, their death, leaving the Stone Men as the inheritors of their accomplishments.


Could the stone men be "future" space travelers, the first ones to colonise Mars perhaps? or even their descendants? Indeed there are Marvels of technology hidden beneath mars surface...
No. Mars was probably colonised by the Golden Men, but beyond? Only the Stone Men could go there, with their servents, the Men of Iron. The Stone Men were send in the Cold Ships made by the Golden Men. The Stone Men, while sleeping in cryogenic stasis during the long voyage between the stars, were guarded by their servents, the Iron Men. And in the end, the two races formed a relationship. The Men of Iron were mankind's defenders, cold warriors who fought against xenos and traitor, while the Men of Stone created a technocratic empire. This was the Dark Age of Technology which became the Age of Strife because the relationship between Iron and Stone ended in a bitter and brutal civil war. Iron Man fought his brother, while Stone killed Stone. In the end, the Iron Men, loyal and traitor, were utterly destroyed by the Stone race, who had lost their Technologicly forged Galactic Empire.
From these ashes arose the Imperium.

FlashGordon
10-08-2006, 19:48
Who are the stone men, if they are not the predecessors of Ad.Mech.?
Golden men are as said, regular humans living here and there, but the stone men are where?
The Stone men have been compensating for their lack of strenghts since those times, enhancing themselves with bionical implants.

May be a long shot but whatever, there is too little info of those times to be sure of either(all of them) theories.

ML Kurze
10-08-2006, 20:22
Golden men are as said, regular humans living here and there, but the stone men are where? Who are the stone men, if they are not the predecessors of Ad.Mech.? Golden men are as said, regular humans living here and there, but the stone men are where?
The current inhabitants of the Imperium. The Golden Men died out. The Dark Age of Technology was filled with Stone Men, since the Golden Men had died before then. It is they that form humanity in the 41st millenium.


May be a long shot but whatever, there is too little info of those times to be sure of either(all of them) theories.
Please check the links I have provided in my first post here. It contains all the information there is and it is quite conclusive as to what happened to the various races of man (gold, stone and iron). There is no need to theorise completely on those questions. However, why and how remains, indeed, a mystery left for historians (meaning us ;)).

Mother_Mercy
11-08-2006, 06:11
I'm reading through the posts Kurze linked to, but I'm not quite getting the difference between the Stone Men and the Golden Men. The Stone Men were less inclined to great philosophical feats, but could create advanced machinery and survive cryogenic sleep. Seems to me that the Golden Men were simply those who stayed behind in the Solar System, and who later got a sort of mythological "Golden Past" attached to themselves.

Outlaw289
11-08-2006, 07:34
IS there a genetic difference between Golden and Stone Men? Like, are Stone Men genetically engineered Golden Men (golden men being us everyday humans) made fit for Space Travel, or are Stone Men simply humans charged with colonizing space and given the proper training?

ML Kurze
11-08-2006, 09:49
I'm reading through the posts Kurze linked to, but I'm not quite getting the difference between the Stone Men and the Golden Men. The Stone Men were less inclined to great philosophical feats, but could create advanced machinery and survive cryogenic sleep. Seems to me that the Golden Men were simply those who stayed behind in the Solar System, and who later got a sort of mythological "Golden Past" attached to themselves.


IS there a genetic difference between Golden and Stone Men? Like, are Stone Men genetically engineered Golden Men (golden men being us everyday humans) made fit for Space Travel, or are Stone Men simply humans charged with colonizing space and given the proper training?

I believe the difference lies within how they perceived themselves, however, one of the people I had this discussion with previously came with the suggestion that the Golden Men are us, only geneticly enhanced for resistance against all the hardiest diseases (like cancer, HIV, ebola, ect). However, in the end this caused them to become weak. So I think the Stone Men are hardier people, like we were before becoming the Golden Men. That's why the Golden Men created the Stone Men. Since I do believe that's what they did, birthing a hardier group of humans. Or perhaps some Golden Men who never were modified like the others. They could breed between the races (so they weren't two different races in the biological sense) but there was a difference (like a difference between humans 4000 BC and us now). But that's just my theory.