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Anubis_the_Harlie
09-08-2006, 20:18
I've wanted to do this for a very long time but don't really know how... I want to have a Dark Eldar cult dedicated to Tzeentch. Any suggestions for units that I should use fluff etc would be greatly appreciated.

ML Kurze
09-08-2006, 21:09
Well, to be honest, I don't think Dark Eldar worship Chaos entities. In fact, they hate Slaanesh and know the risks of becoming a cultist. That's why they hunt other races by the way, to escape from the curse Slaanesh gave the Eldar (and come close to immortality as a nice side effect). It would be kinda ironic don't you think, being devastated by Chaos and then turning to worship it.
However, if you want to go through with it (you can write fluff to support the look of your army with relative ease) just look to any Tzeentch army. Consider if the Dark Eldar who are in this army are mutated yes or no (the worst mutated could represent Wyches for instance) and give them a nice and bright colourscheme (blue and gold perhaps?). Perhaps the Scourges can be mutated Dark Eldar with fully grown wings instead of artifial fly things. Or replace them with discs of Tzeentch and Flamers on top of them.
A good idea could be to get yourself the Chaos codex and use the fluff from the armoury choices form the Thousand Sons to represent some funky Dark Eldar stuff.

Keep us posted on your progress and good luck!

damz451
09-08-2006, 23:22
fluff wise that would make no sense whatsoever but give it a try anyway, I'd imagine a lot of the models would become mutants since that is what tzeentech does and why the thousand sons were turned to dust to avoid it.

jansuza
10-08-2006, 08:23
Archon and incubi would look really nice painted up as tzeentch. You could use the tzeentch daemons as hellions, or (pushing it) scourges.

Ravagers could also suit it, and lots of warriors with subtle mutations.

I don't think wyches would make sense, nor mandrakes for that matter.

As long as you can justify your choices, and use 'counts as' to good effect, you can do whatever you want. Would be cool to see.

JAN

Indrid Khold
10-08-2006, 09:27
Those floating Tzeentch demon disk thingies would make good skyboards.

Though there's really no such thing as chaos worshipping Dark Eldar (the whole point of their army is that they and Chaos don't get along), you could do a pretty good crone world list with either DE or regular Craftworld types.

Anubis_the_Harlie
10-08-2006, 10:08
Thanks for the advice so far.

I spent the majority of last night thinking about list choices and came up with this:

HQ- Archon+Incubi/ Haemonculi?
Elites- Wyches (warriors that are very mutated)
Troops- Warriors
Fast Attack- Hellions (on the Tzeench disks)
Heavy Support- Ravager and Chaos Spawn (counts as Talos)

Bregalad
10-08-2006, 11:15
Well, to be honest, I don't think Dark Eldar worship Chaos entities. In fact, they hate Slaanesh and know the risks of becoming a cultist. That's why they hunt other races by the way, to escape from the curse Slaanesh gave the Eldar (and come close to immortality as a nice side effect). It would be kinda ironic don't you think, being devastated by Chaos and then turning to worship it.

Well, funny thing is that in the current Eldar/Dark Eldar novel "Warrior Coven" we see Lilith the Wych Lord/Lady worshipping Slaanesh. But the novel has some other oddities, and the author seems not to like Xenos at all. So your version seems more believable.
(still planning to do a Dark Eldar army only with Kroot models once ;))

Baneboss
10-08-2006, 11:17
You can come up with very nice story for them. Tzeentch protects them from Slaanesh but takes their souls instead. Conspiracy is a good side of stories involving Tzeentch.

Anubis_the_Harlie
10-08-2006, 13:11
I have a picture of one of my first grotesques or mabye wyches.

I do pre-warn you all that the quality of the model is not one of my best (that's probably got something to do with the fact I did it at 2 a.m ;) )

Anyway here it is:

Oh and any advice on how to make the image quality better would be appreciated too.

Wraithbored
10-08-2006, 14:04
Humm why not make Crone World eldar using the Dark Eldar list? Now those guys worship chaos like nutters. Or are you dead set that they must be Dark Eldar?

Anubis_the_Harlie
10-08-2006, 14:46
Well tbh I don't really know what a Crone World is... could anyone enlighten me to this.

jimbobodoll
10-08-2006, 15:39
A former maiden world (possibly sentient... yes a sentient planet, see "Daemon world") in the eye of terror now... They have loads of eldar 'tech and goodies on em apparently...

Anubis_the_Harlie
10-08-2006, 16:26
Ah I get it... thanks.

Cruentus
10-08-2006, 17:32
Well, funny thing is that in the current Eldar/Dark Eldar novel "Warrior Coven" we see Lilith the Wych Lord/Lady worshipping Slaanesh. But the novel has some other oddities, and the author seems not to like Xenos at all. So your version seems more believable.
(still planning to do a Dark Eldar army only with Kroot models once ;))

Lilith wasn't actually worshipping Slannesh, but rather 'using' Slannesh to further her aims, gain power, and eventually overcome Slannesh. Its never really been teased out in the DE fluff (what precious little there is of it), exactly what their relation to Slannesh is.

From what I've been able to ascertain, the DE continue to follow the hedonistic path that led to the creation of Slannesh in the first place. In order to stave off the soul collecting of Slannesh, they have made pacts with Slannesh to 'sacrifice' souls from other sentient races, in exchange for their own. The DE, perhaps naively, believe that this relationship will keep them safe, and eventually give them the ability to defeat Slannesh and gain even greater power.

One thing to note, and this speaks to the idea of Tzeentch DE, is that, if you notice there are no DE with psychic powers. They have no soulstones, nothing. If anything, they are anti-psychics, as evidenced by their wargear which specifically targets psykers (blanking on the name right now). So, I can't imagine that they would turn to Tzeentch to worship, as there would be no natural conduits for Tzeentch's psychic manipulations (no seers, etc). (Which is not to say you can't do what you want with them ;) )

Like others have said, perhaps Tzeentch is offering protection to this Kabal from Slannesh, for some other dark, long-range plan. How the mutations appearing in their ranks would affect the DE is uncertain. They tolerate Slannesh because for the most part, there is no obvious interference (but a constant shadow).

Hope that all makes some sense.

ML Kurze
10-08-2006, 17:45
Well, funny thing is that in the current Eldar/Dark Eldar novel "Warrior Coven" we see Lilith the Wych Lord/Lady worshipping Slaanesh. But the novel has some other oddities, and the author seems not to like Xenos at all. So your version seems more believable.
It seems to be the current trend or vision that Dark Eldar are Chaos touched and all that, but I'm refusing any of that untill the codex gets redone. I love my Dark Eldar lads as they are, hating Slaanesh and using souls of others to keep on going and stopping Slaanesh from having them for a meal. Much better than those pansy Eldar with soulstones! Weakminded cowards ;)


(still planning to do a Dark Eldar army only with Kroot models once ;))
Now that I'd like to see! I take it these Kroot have eaten Dark Eldar for over a year and gotten a bit to much to show for it other than a nicely filled stomach?

Bregalad
10-08-2006, 22:40
Now that I'd like to see! I take it these Kroot have eaten Dark Eldar for over a year and gotten a bit to much to show for it other than a nicely filled stomach?

Well, the background is that the Kroot merc list is very weak but the models great, while the DE list is great and the models are weak. DE are fast with almost no armour, which fits to Kroot (and people wanting an alternative Harlequin list BTW). Having seen a Kroot on an Eldar jetbike gave me the idea. So no fluff reason of eating DE too much, but just using some technology (and rules). They still can add Knarlocs etc. because of the Kroot merc ally rule.

Malphax
10-08-2006, 23:09
If anything, they are anti-psychics, as evidenced by their wargear which specifically targets psykers (blanking on the name right now).

That would be the Crucible of Malediction! An awesome name if ever there was one.

IncubiLord
11-08-2006, 07:29
< readies fluff-weapons >

they have made pacts with Slannesh to 'sacrifice' souls from other sentient races, in exchange for their own.
That is the most pessimistic or Chaos-happy way of looking at DE soul-eating.

However, I'd point out to you that Vect himself wouldn't be afraid to give the name of She Who Thirsts if he had an agreement with her.

I'd also say that the way this feeding came to be, from the wording, makes it sound like nobody was dealing with the Dark Gods.

(reference: A Torturer's Tale on the GW Website)

there are no DE with psychic powers.
Ummm, then what's the Nightmare Doll? DE have psychic potential, but practicing psykers tend to become playthings.

The only pseudo-sane explanation of being able to ingest souls is a psychic ability.
This is the same race that brought you Farseers.

DE have psykers.
Most likely, all of them are at least latent psykers.

Now: I will throw all that to the wind and also suggest that you play them as Crone World Eldar (Eldar who survived the Fall and live on worlds that are now within the Eye of Terror). Those are the Chaos Eldar, and they're supposed to be some very unpleasant individuals.

I think Mandrakes could also be a very nice Tzeentch Eldar unit, played as Warriors who've gained the ability to shape-shift and taken close combat weaponry.

You could use bases with things like rats and birds on them for the undeployed Mandrakes and make the Mandrakes themselves look like they're shifting between forms that would blend in and their own shape.

Models on Discs could play as Hellions or even Reavers, Mutants could easily be Grotesques, Warriors with actual wings as Scourges would be acceptable, Warp Beasts could be modified Horror models, and the Talos could be a daemon of sorts - perhaps something Daemonhost-ish with a more damonic feel to it.

I'd also encourage you to get ahold of the Daemonhunters and CSM codices and talk your opponents into letting you play your army using the Adversaries rules. Flat out add Tzeetchian daemons to your army.

Anubis_the_Harlie
11-08-2006, 09:18
Yeah, I do have the CSM and DH codicies (correct plural?) and most of my opponents are quite nice and probably would let me do that...

I'm off to G/W today and was wondering, would using dark elf and DE warriors and combining them make sense? Because as far as I know most crone worlds are quite backwards, almost feral.

ML Kurze
11-08-2006, 10:36
Yeah, I do have the CSM and DH codicies (correct plural?) and most of my opponents are quite nice and probably would let me do that...

I'm off to G/W today and was wondering, would using dark elf and DE warriors and combining them make sense? Because as far as I know most crone worlds are quite backwards, almost feral.
An excellent idea. If I remember correctly, there was one guy on portent who had an army made up of converted Dark Elves with Dark Eldar guns. Looked very nice.

Dranthar
11-08-2006, 11:22
In order to stave off the soul collecting of Slannesh, they have made pacts with Slannesh to 'sacrifice' souls from other sentient races, in exchange for their own. The DE, perhaps naively, believe that this relationship will keep them safe, and eventually give them the ability to defeat Slannesh and gain even greater power.

I completely disagree that the Dark Eldar have any sort of 'agreement' with Slaneesh.

If you read the short story in the back of the DE codex about an attempted coup, you'll notice that the Dark Eldar Lord 'absorbs' the lingering souls of those recently dead warriors, after which it is said he looks more youthful and energetic.
From that and bits of 'the torturers tale', I figure that Slaneesh is always slowly draining away their souls. The only way they can stop being completely consumed is to 'top up' their own soul with that of other sentinent life forms, kind of like fuel in a car (although I think of them more as 'soul vampires' ;) )


Oh and before anyone starts taking Black Library books as canon, don't. :D They're written by authors who know just as much (usually less) as we do about the 40k background, so they often mess things up, particularly when it comes to the Dark Eldar (A mandrake flying a Raven? good god... :eyebrows: ).



One thing to note, and this speaks to the idea of Tzeentch DE, is that, if you notice there are no DE with psychic powers.

From the 2nd ed. Eldar Codex, all Eldar are latent psykers. It's just a matter of whether they choose to develop their abilities or not.
Also from the 2nd ed. Eldar Codex, those Eldar who draw power from the Warp (ie. are psykers) are at a huge risk to demonic attack, since the soul of an Eldar "shines out like a star in the warp" compared to the dull 'glow' of other races, which attracts demons like nothing else.
Farseers and Warlocks have safe-guards to minimise the risk of attack, like the ghost helm, and the channeling of their powers through runes (2nd ed. Eldar Codex again). The Dark Eldar obviously do not have these sort of safeguards.
According to the Nightmare Doll blurb, Dark Eldar psykers are not that common and are considered 'interesting playthings' to other DE. Both of these pieces of information lead me to believe that Dark Eldar usually choose not to develop their powers

So basically, there are very few DE psykers because;
a) Those who develop their powers are taking a huge risk in getting eaten by demons
b) They are also at a huge risk of being 'eaten' (or something) by their fellow Dark Eldar.


Anyway regardless of how you decide to do things, you should definitely try to use the adversaries rules in the DH codex. Nothing says "Tzzentch" like a pack of actual Tzzentch demons. :D

Anubis_the_Harlie
11-08-2006, 17:34
Yay! I am now in the possesion of horrors and flamers! Looks like the first step on the road to damnation hehe...

IncubiLord
11-08-2006, 19:38
would using dark elf and DE warriors and combining them make sense? Because as far as I know most crone worlds are quite backwards, almost feral.
Make sense?
A lot of DE players raid the Dark Elves range anyways! Sure, it makes sense.

I completely disagree that the Dark Eldar have any sort of 'agreement' with Slaneesh.
>snip<
all Eldar are latent psykers. It's just a matter of whether they choose to develop their abilities or not.
>snip<
According to the Nightmare Doll blurb, Dark Eldar psykers are not that common and are considered 'interesting playthings' to other DE.

I hope this was intended to reinforce my identical points. ;)

Yay! I am now in the possesion of horrors and flamers! Looks like the first step on the road to damnation hehe...
The craftworlders would say your first step was long ago, when you didn't flee the birthing of She Who Thirsts, but yes, you are truly on the road to being a foul Eldar who worships the Ruinous Powers - especially the Changer of Ways.

Dranthar
12-08-2006, 06:53
Make sense?
A lot of DE players raid the Dark Elves range anyways! Sure, it makes sense.

Speaking of which, I've found that Dark lf repeater crossbows make great alternatives to splinte rifles, and that with a bit of bits-swapping/converting, you can make a really sweet "Dark Exodite"-type model.


I hope this was intended to reinforce my identical points. ;)

Um...Yes....:D

ML Kurze
12-08-2006, 11:35
Yay! I am now in the possesion of horrors and flamers! Looks like the first step on the road to damnation hehe...
Welcome to the fold, damned son of the Crone Worlds ;)

Anubis_the_Harlie
12-08-2006, 16:37
Right... after much contemplation I now have a complete list of suitable units to use in my army:

HQ: Archon/Archite Drachon/Drachite and Incubi Greater Daemon (opponents permitting)
Elites: Possesed (count as Wyches) Lesser Daemons (count as Grotesques)
Troops: Warrior Squads Daemon packs (opponents permitting)
Fast Attack: Hellions (on Tzeench Disks) Screamers (opponents permitting)
Heavy Support: Beast of Tzeench (counts as Talos)

With this list i'm going to limit raiders to the HQ and Elite sections of the army as I think that on an Eldar world that has been abandoned for countless millenia(sp?) little technology will be left on the planet and naturally the leaders would claim this for themselves. I'm not including Ravagers for the same reason as they would probably be stripped down and used as transports for the Lords... the rest of the choices don't require too much explaining (I hope). Anyway opinions on theese selections would be appreciated.

IncubiLord
12-08-2006, 20:10
HQ: Archon/Archite Drachon/Drachite and Incubi Greater Daemon (opponents permitting)
If you play an army led by an Archite, you'll be using the Wych Cult variant. This will keep you from using your Grotesque and Talos equivalents. It would work fine, but you'd have very few options.

Also, I'm not sure I'd rule out the Haemonculi. You could use them as assassins (specialized in poison and worse at CC than most Eldar) or even dark priests.

Elites: Possesed (count as Wyches) Lesser Daemons (count as Grotesques)
Mandrakes (shape-shifters) would fit in an army of the Changer of Ways.

Troops: Warrior Squads Daemon packs (opponents permitting)
Raider Squads could be used with a VDR truck or something similar.

Fast Attack: Hellions (on Tzeench Disks) Screamers (opponents permitting)
Maybe flying chariots for Reavers? Hellions are 0-1, and Reavers are pretty decent.

Heavy Support: Beast of Tzeench (counts as Talos)
Scourges with actual wings still fit, even if they aren't the best unit.

With this list i'm going to limit raiders to the HQ and Elite sections of the army as I think that on an Eldar world that has been abandoned for countless millenia(sp?) little technology will be left on the planet and naturally the leaders would claim this for themselves.
Not sure on this one. The Eldar are pretty good at maintaining their technology.

You might want to look into using the rules for Kroot Mercenaries as well, those could open up some other opportunities.

Anubis_the_Harlie
12-08-2006, 21:11
If you play an army led by an Archite, you'll be using the Wych Cult variant.
Oops I forgot about that... wll scratch the Archite then.


Also, I'm not sure I'd rule out the Haemonculi. You could use them as assassins (specialized in poison and worse at CC than most Eldar) or even dark priests.
Yeah that's cool I'll use them.


Mandrakes (shape-shifters) would fit in an army of the Changer of Ways.
Yet another silly oversight... I will be using mandrakes.


Raider Squads could be used with a VDR truck or something similar.
Arn't the VDR banned. I read that somewhere...


Maybe flying chariots for Reavers? Hellions are 0-1, and Reavers are pretty decent.
That would be so cool! Any ideas which models to use?

And on the subject of Kroot Mercs how could I use them? I've never seen the codex and therefore don't know how they work with other armies.

-Anubis

IncubiLord
13-08-2006, 07:50
Arn't the VDR banned. I read that somewhere...
I don't think they're allowed at GW tourneys, but that doesn't stop you from doing something in regular games.

I doubt they've actually said you can't use the VDR anymore. Anything you make with it is usually at least a little over-priced anyways.

That would be so cool! Any ideas which models to use?
Umm, not really. It was one of those would-be-sweet-if-you-figure-it-out ideas.

When I posted it, I was actually thinking of something similar to the cart of a chariot attached to a special harness on a Screamer, but flying chariots both sounds cooler and is a clearer image.

And on the subject of Kroot Mercs how could I use them? I've never seen the codex and therefore don't know how they work with other armies.
Here's a link to their rules on the GW site (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/kroot%2Dlist/).

In larger games, you can consider using a squad of Kroot that Infiltrates extra-close and is pretty sure to get to charge on the first turn (shaper council or hound pack being the favored choices - using eviscerators).

Some also like to take the Tracker or Hunter kindred to add sniper rifles to their army, while I've also seen some say to use a bare unit simply to tie up the biggest threat while the rest of your army closes in.

They can be an amusing change of pace.

Anubis_the_Harlie
13-08-2006, 09:54
Ok... I was thinking to use HE Trionic chariots with some sort of screamer or daemonic steed attached for the Jetbikes.

And those Kroot just sound fun...