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View Full Version : My army lacks static CR, is it viable?



druchii
09-08-2006, 21:29
Well,
I've been thinking.

Alot of fantasy players are nuts about the static CR "edge". I'm talking about having full units of infantry, three ranks, standard, etc. Shooting for the initial +4 CR, and possibly more with kills, outnumbering, banners, etc.

Traditionally this has been the subtle power of a ranked infantry unit, whereas the cavalry units usually hit harder, hit more, and have nasty beasties which they ride, and the advantage of the charge.

My question is, I've been longing for another army (now that my Bretonnian army is complete) and I'm looking for something different.

I've got my static "combat res" army (a very defensive undead army which can go either VC or TK(barrow kings style). I've got my elite "hitty" army (Brets) and now I'm looking at a "monster" army.

When I say monster army, I'm leaning towards something like the Doombull army of, well, doom. Fielding four units or so of "big" monsters, like minotaurs, trolls, and dragon ogres, backed up by a giant, a shaggoth, and an odd filler unit. Or even a Wood Elf, "forrest spirit" army. With a treeman ancient lord, branchwraiths, a few units of dryads, treekin, and a few aux. treemen.

DO these armies work? Most of the time they'll be relying solely on "kills" and eventually outnumbering, as they lack static CR. Obviously I'll be playing to the "hit em in front, hit em in the side" mentality, to deprive my opponent of their CR, and boost mine. I'll have to rely even MORE on the "drawn" charge tactic, to get those nasty chosen knights, or Lances in some advantageous posisition.

But I'm still wondering, will I get spanked? I consider myself a pretty cunning tactician (both out of the Army books, and on the table top) but will my initial meditations lead me awry?

Thanks,
d

DeathMasterSnikch
09-08-2006, 21:36
It would be hard but by no means impossible...I'm a horde player in my fantasy armies so I can't give much tactical advice for using them but whenever I'm using monsters I usualy rely on fear and a flanking unit, if you have support for each unit I don't see why it wouldn't work. You claim to be a cunning tactician so you could be able to pull it off.

Elves will be able to use dryad units pretty effectively for flank charges, I have no experience with doombull armies though.

Goodluck in whatever you choose to do.

Mephistofeles
09-08-2006, 21:37
I have played against Ogre Kingdoms (Who refuses to use Gnoblars), and they can actually win combat, simply by spanking people around A LOT. The same guy who owns the Ogre Kingdoms army also has an army consisting almost solely of Minotaurs, Giants and the likes of that, and allthough I have never played against it, I believe that in the hands of a cunning tactician, it can be devastating.

Remember though, that if you get drawn into a "fair" combat with a 25-man block of spearmen with a Detachment, then you will really be struggling, since you have to kill off at least 6 models just to get even. But it can work, if you're good.

Highborn
10-08-2006, 02:20
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned depriving the opponent of their static CR. I play a maneuvrable WE list generally without Eternal Guard, relying on combined charges and nailing enemies in the flank with fast cav to negate their rank bonus to win combats. It works, but things can definitely go horribly wrong as well. All in all, I find it a fun and challenging way to play.

druchii
10-08-2006, 03:48
Well, here's a bit more background:

The "forrest spirit army" would consist of one treeman ancient, one treeman, four units of dryads, two units of three treekin with elders, and two units of six wild riders.

Obviously the fast cavalry is there to draw charges, turnaround and charge the flanks(if the dryads don't reach). Alternately I've been thinking about using the stubborn treemen as anchors, and forcing units to charge them(or get charged) and then hitting them with the kin. There are lots of variants in this list. Biggest obvious weaknesses: flammable, magic.

The Doombull army would consist of three units of minotaurs, with greatweapons, LA, and the MoN (netting a nice 4+ save!) a unit of three trolls (with doombull), four units of warhounds (to bait, and pull charges) A giant, a shaggoth, and about 198 pts worth of "other" stuff.

Tactics would be much the same. Weaknesses: Magic, stubborn units (although with so many attacks on such a small frontage..).


Thanks again,
D

TheWarSmith
10-08-2006, 04:06
Dryads and beast herds(if you count them) are 2 of the best non static units that can deal with static ones. Dryads hit really hard and for 13 ponts I think, you can get a lot of them.

The blessing and the curse of skirmishers is that they can hit the enemy flank easily, but flanking doesn't accomplish as much for them(not rank denial).

Spirit forest rules can do quite nicely using wild riders(they're spirits right?), dryads, and 2 treemen. You'll probably end up with treekin, but I think they're pretty craptacular.

Obviously GW thinks non static CR armies have a place as there's virtually no way to do Ogre kingdoms w/ static CR(there would be if gnoblars were faster)

pox
10-08-2006, 04:50
They are diferent, and hard to use. but once you get used to it, hard to counter. your opponent wont know what to hit, and the combos can be nice. in general, if you already have "normal" army, then something elite might be in order. because of the degree of skill involved, its a bit more impressive when you win. of course, the opposite happens alot too, but you learn ALOT about the game when you do lists like that. I found after playing with my ogres for a while, the few big units in my beasts of chaos army were used to a much greater potential.

druchii
10-08-2006, 06:15
Dryads and beast herds(if you count them) are 2 of the best non static units that can deal with static ones. Dryads hit really hard and for 13 ponts I think, you can get a lot of them.

The blessing and the curse of skirmishers is that they can hit the enemy flank easily, but flanking doesn't accomplish as much for them(not rank denial).

Spirit forest rules can do quite nicely using wild riders(they're spirits right?), dryads, and 2 treemen. You'll probably end up with treekin, but I think they're pretty craptacular.

Obviously GW thinks non static CR armies have a place as there's virtually no way to do Ogre kingdoms w/ static CR(there would be if gnoblars were faster)

You've hit the nail mostly on the head, the ancient, treeman, and wild riders all belong in the army. The dryads are there mostly to add a mean punch. for ,12 points, you get a n I6, a2 model with a good ws.

The treekin are a "bit" overpriced, I agree, but I really don't have much else to flesh out the list with. Without the treekin, I lack another unit to act as a pretty good "anchor" unit, to take the charges(two treemen just don't feel like enough).


I'm still rather torn on the "Doombull army of doom" vs the "tree spirit army of, well, doom". I like the BoC feel alot, and I'll get a bit more variety in the army with the giant and shaggoth, vs the two treemen. Although the wildriders and treemen are some of my favorite models, ever. (and I mean old treemen!)

DarkTerror
10-08-2006, 06:18
I know it's not the same type of 'monster army', but have you considered a Dark Elf monster army? It can be very cool

druchii
10-08-2006, 21:07
I know it's not the same type of 'monster army', but have you considered a Dark Elf monster army? It can be very cool

I have. But I also failed to menton before that I'm looking for something that I can have a very "few" or no "small" models.

Ogre Kingdoms are out, because another player around here has them, and I don't want to step on his toes (unless it's with MY OWN "monster" army.).

I DO love the DE models, but with a "godzilla" army i'm not looking at nearly as many "big" beasties (big including minotaurs, treekin, treemen, giants, etc) as I would as the previous two armies.


thanks again for the support,
d

coelomate
10-08-2006, 23:09
I'm new to the rules, so I might be way off, but it looked to be like you planned to use the Wild Riders to draw charges - you do know that they can't flee as a charge reaction, correct?

Other than that, it sounds like a really neat idea! I think chaos would be more fun due to the diversity of 'monsters' they have, where as Wood Elves really you've got big trees, medium trees, little trees, and trees that are characters... it would look cool and cohesive, but might be something of a bore to play with repatedly, don't you think?

druchii
12-08-2006, 19:57
I'm new to the rules, so I might be way off, but it looked to be like you planned to use the Wild Riders to draw charges - you do know that they can't flee as a charge reaction, correct?

Other than that, it sounds like a really neat idea! I think chaos would be more fun due to the diversity of 'monsters' they have, where as Wood Elves really you've got big trees, medium trees, little trees, and trees that are characters... it would look cool and cohesive, but might be something of a bore to play with repatedly, don't you think?

Why couldn't they flee as a charge reaction?

And I kinda agree with your point on the WE list, hence I'm still leaning towards the BoC list. Giants, ogres, trolls, minotaurs, dragon ogres, shaggoths, doombulls, oh my!

Look for a list in the army lists section soon.

d

ps. thanks again for the replies!

eldrak
12-08-2006, 22:18
because they're wannabe deamons

I've also been thinking about an army based on big guys. One thing that worries me is that it is impossible to hide your characters from warmachines (cannons and stone throwers)

TheWarSmith
12-08-2006, 23:02
I believe wild riders are immune to psych, hence not being able to flee charges(which is stupid).

I think 2 units of treekin, 2 treemen, branch wraiths, wild riders, and dryads could make a very competitive list, because although it has no CR, all of its units HURT in close combat.

It gets CR, just not the static kind. with the new 5 for rank rule, your list will become a bit better, cause it'll mean more dryads in b2b contact.

Most combats when dryads charge will yield 13 WS4, S4 attacks, which is nothing to laugh at and will put on a LOT of hurt.

The fact that this army is also completely immune to psych(I think?) will be huge for you.

druchii
13-08-2006, 01:50
EDIT: Army post! http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=866722#post866722


I believe wild riders are immune to psych, hence not being able to flee charges(which is stupid).

I think 2 units of treekin, 2 treemen, branch wraiths, wild riders, and dryads could make a very competitive list, because although it has no CR, all of its units HURT in close combat.

It gets CR, just not the static kind. with the new 5 for rank rule, your list will become a bit better, cause it'll mean more dryads in b2b contact.

Most combats when dryads charge will yield 13 WS4, S4 attacks, which is nothing to laugh at and will put on a LOT of hurt.

The fact that this army is also completely immune to psych(I think?) will be huge for you.


Ah, sorry, I'm going on the assumption that the rumors about the 7th ed changes will be true. (Ie immune to psych just effects "negative" psychological ailments, not the benificial ones)

But lets quit talking about the treekin army, I've already decided (priced!) and started plans on the doombull army. The list is in the army list forums, now.

so head on over, and give me some good, constructive criticism.

thanks :d
d

TheWarSmith
13-08-2006, 02:14
come on man, go for the trees. I was gonna draft out an army list for ya, but www.thegreatuncleanone.com hasn't gotten off his ass and made one for WE yet(good job)

The thing about the tree army of doom is that it's not nearly as common. I've seen lots of minotaur armies.

eldrak
13-08-2006, 08:56
Uh? I thought forrest spirit armies were quite common and they're not too different from what this army would look like

lorelorn
13-08-2006, 11:36
I'm going on the assumption that the rumors about the 7th ed changes will be true. (Ie immune to psych just effects "negative" psychological ailments, not the benificial ones)

But lets quit talking about the treekin army, I've already decided (priced!) and started plans on the doombull army. The list is in the army list forums, now.


I've seen the 7th ed rulebook, and immune to psych units cannot flee as a charge reaction. Immune to psych means immune to fear, terror and panic now.

I'm glad you chosen the minotaurs over the too-common tree spirirts. It's the more challenging option.

ardude
13-08-2006, 17:39
I've played pritty mutch every possable lizardmen army and I've come to 1 monster army that works pritty well:

old blood
itzl, quetzl, tepok
gw la
enchanted shield, aura of quetzl, scimitar of sun
carnosaur

3x10 skink scouts

2x10 skinks

2x3 kroxigors

2x5 cold ones
( or 4x3 kroxigors, 4x5 cold ones depents on what you like)

2 stegadons.

you can play well against shooting armys with 50 skinks.
and you have a lot of movement and mobilety and GREAT combat power.

druchii
13-08-2006, 22:45
come on man, go for the trees. I was gonna draft out an army list for ya, but www.thegreatuncleanone.com hasn't gotten off his ass and made one for WE yet(good job)

The thing about the tree army of doom is that it's not nearly as common. I've seen lots of minotaur armies.

Ah, well, I DO have a "tree" list drafted, but with wild riders not being able to flee charges (lame!) the list takes a hit on the whole tactical bent, but I'll post my proposed tree list at the end of the post here.
Oh, and I've seen more woold elf armies than I've seen BoC armies.



I've seen the 7th ed rulebook, and immune to psych units cannot flee as a charge reaction. Immune to psych means immune to fear, terror and panic now.

I'm glad you chosen the minotaurs over the too-common tree spirirts. It's the more challenging option.

Bummer, I had hoped that the new immune to psych rules ONLY made the unit immune to fear, terror and panic, and not unable to flee.


I've played pritty mutch every possable lizardmen army and I've come to 1 monster army that works pritty well:

old blood
itzl, quetzl, tepok
gw la
enchanted shield, aura of quetzl, scimitar of sun
carnosaur

3x10 skink scouts

2x10 skinks

2x3 kroxigors

2x5 cold ones
( or 4x3 kroxigors, 4x5 cold ones depents on what you like)

2 stegadons.

you can play well against shooting armys with 50 skinks.
and you have a lot of movement and mobilety and GREAT combat power.

I thought about it. I really quite like the Lizardman list, but everytime I look through the army book, I want to make a magic heavy Slaan list. I love dinosaurs and all, but something about a toad toasting badguys is just too fun to pass up.

Quick "Forrest spirit" list:
Treeman ancient, cluster, murder, annoyance(this could go)
4x10 Dryads
2x3 treekin
2x6 wild riders+huntsman
Treeman

That's what I'd like to go with, the wild riders are a nice addition, and a good break in the "OMG TREEZ!" feel of the army.

PS: that was just for you, TWS.