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Skrittiblak
10-08-2006, 13:47
In the old days. Well, in 2nd edition. Shuriken Catapults got the range of boltguns and sustained fire which made them the deadliest weapon in the game.

Nowadays however the weapon of the Eldar Soldier is barely better than an Ork Shoota. Eldar can assault with it, and it gets a better AP, but now it doesn't even have the move and fire benefit of the Shoota.

This is screwed up. How is it that the most ancient race in the galaxy has a weapon that is utter crap compared to that of the youngest race in the galaxy. (Shuriken Catapult vs Pulse Rifle... yeah - that's terrible!)

Now in the new codex there will be Dire Catapults. Why not just drop the Dire Catapult and make all Shuriken Catapults dire? It still will be a mediocre weapon but it will be an improvement.

Or leave it at 12" and make it Assault 3 for it to really stand out.

Simsandwich
10-08-2006, 13:50
You do know that Shootas are Bolters right?
S4 AP5 Rapid Fire,
For Both of them.

MadJackMcJack
10-08-2006, 13:50
I think that would be a dire solution. O HO!

Seriously though, what's the new stats on the thing? I can't be arsed to dig through all of the Eldar rumour pages. Have they changed from assault 2?

Tarquinn
10-08-2006, 13:52
While I agree 100%, I must assume that the change was done for balancing reasons. It does not make much sense, but helps providing fairer games.

@MadJackMcJack: The catapults stay the same. Just Dire Avengers get a variant with 6 inches more range.

emperorpenguin
10-08-2006, 13:53
You do know that Shootas are Bolters right?
S4 AP5 Rapid Fire,
For Both of them.

shootas have AP6

revford
10-08-2006, 13:54
I'd love to trade up my lasguns for shotguns, the shuricat is awesome beyond my wildest dreams. I really don't see a problem with it.

lord_blackfang
10-08-2006, 13:56
Face it, your army is useless now.

Simsandwich
10-08-2006, 13:57
AP6?
Ah well, it doesn't make any difference.

Wraithbored
10-08-2006, 13:57
What is wrong with the shuriken catapults? For what they do they do it awesomely. And the dire avengers extra range will make it more so. And since you are writing a requiem for the shuriken catapult, why not reminisce of the d-cannon, the wraithcannon and other wargear from 2nd ed?

Any kind of "requiem" is pointless it's a whole new game now, the rules are different and the game mechanic to a degree also. Besides the new codex will be out soon enough. And personally I can't wait.

MadJackMcJack
10-08-2006, 13:59
AP6?
Ah well, it doesn't make any difference.

Trust me, it does. *shakes his fist at all the buggers with a 5+ save*

Simsandwich
10-08-2006, 14:00
I'd kill for Shootas with Shotguns.
Just seems so...Orky.

Wraithbored
10-08-2006, 14:03
Trust me, it does. *shakes his fist at all the buggers with a 5+ save*

Tyranids, IG, Orks Eldar, Dark Eldar, some Sob units....that AP5 can be a great boon in a non marine heavy enviroment! (LOL finding a non marine heavy enviroment is like dividing by 0 and getting a sandwich)

Souleater
10-08-2006, 15:05
He's right, the most ancient race should have the best guns...no, wait...Necron already have Gauss....

Also...newer up and coming race has better gun than dying old race who've long ago seen their glory days....sounds about right to me.

Grimshawl
10-08-2006, 15:10
That might hold true if the older race were reverting or loosing their tech base, however this doesnt seem to be the case with Eldar.

Souleater
10-08-2006, 15:13
(shakes head sadly)

I know, but frankly they should have rolled over and died off years ago. Can't they take a hint? Just join the Greater Good, already.

jimbobodoll
10-08-2006, 15:18
The Tau are the Eldar's b-@$%&-hes (censored for the greater good). I mourn for my poor shuri-catipult... sniff sniff.... Still now the 'Quins have ended their chlled out 3rd edition haitus this requiem isn't all doom and gloom!

Souleater
10-08-2006, 15:25
How d'ya work that one out, Jim?

Surely the Tau are the C'tan's play things...and those C'tan they don't like the Eldar, except for eating their souls...

jimbobodoll
10-08-2006, 15:32
"Xeneology" hints that the Tau ethereals were created by one of the races of Eldar (i believe quins). They did this by genetically combining Tau with a super-alien-bug-race called the Qu'orl who were 'resiliant to chaos'... The scent crystal thing on the ethereals matches that of the Qu'orl queens...

It seems the 'greater good loving' Tau are the Eldar's (working for the old one's?) latest weapon against chaos. Seeded directly opposite the glaxy from the eye of terror, they have time to develop...

Simsandwich
10-08-2006, 15:33
Itz Koz Jim iz da greatest.
And why does everything turn into a C'Tan/Old Ones did it?

Souleater
10-08-2006, 15:39
Scapegoatism :)

Dosadi
10-08-2006, 15:40
I do miss the days of the Shurkat being feared by all. The S 4 combined with the -2 save would turn marines to paste.
I can remember this one game where my squadron of 9 jet bikes killed half a space wolf army in one round of shooting. Come to think of it, this happened alot.
Shurkats were stupid good in 2n.d edition.
If you translated them directly to 3rd/4th editon then they would be Storm Bolters with AP4.
mmmmm...Guardians with Storm Bolters. So who wants to play my USF army with 100+ storm bolter guardians?

Dosadi

HeraldoftheGods
10-08-2006, 16:00
Wish my DE warriors could have shuri-pults. Damn that'd be nasty.
I'll swap you your weapons for a bunch of useless splinter rifles. Deal?

carl
10-08-2006, 16:02
Guardians would be a LOT more expensive with them (so you would not get 100+). The trouble is it would be very hard to balance.

Glennie
10-08-2006, 16:09
Not on-topic as such but wouldnt AP5 be the equivalent of a -2 ASM?

Helicon_One
10-08-2006, 16:15
The shuricat going unchanged bothers me, as someone who devoted far too much time arguing over what changes should be made to it (12", S3, AP4, Assault 3). I still don't think 18" range would have solved the problems it has in the hands of Guardians, but it might at least have disguised them a little. As it is, it gives the impression that GW aren't even trying to make shuricat Guardians competitive again. Though I guess there's no reason why they should bother, they've got new grav-platform and Aspect Warrior models to sell now. </cynicism>


Not on-topic as such but wouldnt AP5 be the equivalent of a -2 ASM?
There aren't direct equivalents in most cases - the 2nd Ed bolter was -1 and is now AP5, the 2nd Ed shuricat was -2 and is now AP5. -2 would translate better to AP4 IMO, though.

Tim

Cruentus
10-08-2006, 17:20
They should have just given them the Bolter stats (S4, AP:5, Rapid Fire), and called them Shuriken Catapults.

But no, then Eldar players would have complained that they didn't get any special rules, and its just a 'bolter'. Blah, blah, blah...

So instead you get the Shuriken Catapult. :)

Frankly, I much preferred it when we were using the 3rd ed 'back of the rulebook' lists. A Fusion Gun was a melta gun, a Bright Lance was a Lascannon. Made things nice and easy, and were relatively fun to play. With added complexity, you're bound to get some strange 'special rules' or weapons. I mean, giving a static Guardian an assault 2 weapon, while Dark Eldar Raiders get a Rapid Fire splinter rifle (no assault after firing)... :wtf:

They obviously don't think all these things through very well. :eyebrows:

Glennie
10-08-2006, 17:53
There aren't direct equivalents in most cases - the 2nd Ed bolter was -1 and is now AP5, the 2nd Ed shuricat was -2 and is now AP5. -2 would translate better to AP4 IMO, though.

Tim

If you translated it, then -2 would be AP5 as it doesnt allow armour saves for models with a 5+ save as -2 would mean you have to roll a 7 but against 4+ saves itd allow a save at 6+

Latro_
10-08-2006, 18:49
When people whine about the range of shur cats it really does strike me that they just have this image in their head of Eldar sitting back and blasting away... They should never be like that.

You can FOF which makes shur cats more effective then if in the hands of a marine say...
Also with eldar you have to plan the chance you'll get to let rip with them with other units (mainly aspect warriors) so they can charge on the same turn and you go in too with ya guardians.

Helicon_One
10-08-2006, 20:01
If you translated it, then -2 would be AP5 as it doesnt allow armour saves for models with a 5+ save as -2 would mean you have to roll a 7 but against 4+ saves itd allow a save at 6+

There is that, but like I said its not something that can really be directly translated because an ASM modifies everything rather than just 'allowing a save' or 'not allowing a save'. Remember shuricats were horrendous in 2nd Ed because of the -2 ASM, even power armour was a joke when you pointed a few Dire Avengers or Guardians at them. In that light, giving the shuricat 'only' AP5 feels like a step down in power relative to other weapons.

Tim

Glennie
10-08-2006, 20:05
Then doesnt that indicate Bolters have become more powerful?

hereticdave
10-08-2006, 20:29
When people whine about the range of shur cats it really does strike me that they just have this image in their head of Eldar sitting back and blasting away... They should never be like that.

You can FOF which makes shur cats more effective then if in the hands of a marine say...
Also with eldar you have to plan the chance you'll get to let rip with them with other units (mainly aspect warriors) so they can charge on the same turn and you go in too with ya guardians.

True - if you're able to coordinate that OK but the odds of getting your Guardians into range, shoot up the squad [miraculously leaving enough behind] charge in with your Scorps or Banshee's and actually manage to get more that 30% in base to base....then you're doing pretty good. Odds of it happening with any regularity are pretty small from what i've seen :eyebrows: Then assuming your pathetically small aspect squad fails [likely against mobs etc] or whatever your wonderful Guardians are now in charge range :rolleyes:

To continue on with it not making sense why would a race who're admitedly dying out even entertain any form of close range weaponry for their citizen levy [the Guardians] ?

sliganian
10-08-2006, 20:46
True - if you're able to coordinate that OK but the odds of getting your Guardians into range, shoot up the squad [miraculously leaving enough behind] charge in with your Scorps or Banshee's and actually manage to get more that 30% in base to base....then you're doing pretty good. Odds of it happening with any regularity are pretty small from what i've seen :eyebrows: Then assuming your pathetically small aspect squad fails [likely against mobs etc] or whatever your wonderful Guardians are now in charge range :rolleyes:

To continue on with it not making sense why would a race who're admitedly dying out even entertain any form of close range weaponry for their citizen levy [the Guardians] ?

Wow. Imagine that!
DEFENDER Guardians have weapons where it is more ideal for the foe to move into range against you. It is almost as if the DEFENSIVE weapons are intended to be used in a DEFENSIVE fashion by DEFENDERS. :rolleyes:

Is there some aspect of the use of Guardians and their gun platforms that many Eldar players are willfully ignorant of?

Corlock Striker
10-08-2006, 21:33
Nurglitch, I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit on your assessment of the Shuriken Catapult, and using it to soften up a unit before going into close combat. There are only two infantry units that are equipped with the Shuriken Catapult in the Eldar army. One is Guardian Defender Squads, the other is Dire Avengers. The task and use you just described I would say is very fitting for Dire Avengers. However, I personally don't see that as the use Defenders Guardians were designed for, for two reasons. 1) The presence of Storm Squad Guardians in the Eldar Army List. 2) The fact that Defender Guardians can take Heavy Weapon Platforms.

The use you describe for Defender Guardians, seems to me to be the way in which Storm Guardians were designed to be used. Cheap and numerous assault troops. With the presense of Storm Guardians as civilian close combat "specialists" and the fact that Defender Guardians can take a Heavy Weapons Platform, it seems to me that Defender Guardians were designed to be mobile mid-long ranged combat "specialists". I put that term in quotes, because Guardians really aren't specialists considering what else is in the Eldar Army List.

Given the role that it seems like Defender Guardians were meant to fill by their rules, I think the rules for the Shuriken Catapult are rather counter productive to that role. They're meant to be used to level massive amounts of fire power on the enemy, however, they can't level massive amounts of fire power onto enemy units until they are within charging distance of an enemy unit. Meaning, that a squad that is designed for shooting, can only get off one round of shooting before being tied up in Close Combat, where they are no longer able to perform the function they were designed to perform. At least that's my opinion.

That isn't to say that there aren't ways to make Guardians work given their current rules and the current stats of the Shuriken Catapult. It's just that with the current stats of the Shuriken Catapult, they are not very good at performing the function one would assume they are meant to perform from their entry in the army list. The function that most players are going to try and use them to perform, as that's what they have come to understand Defender Guardians are meant to do. The fact that they don't perform this function all that well suggests that there is either an issue with the function for them implied in the Codex, or their rules and the stats of the Shuriken Catapult. I leave it up to all of you to decide what is at fault.

Helicon_One
10-08-2006, 23:34
Then doesnt that indicate Bolters have become more powerful?
Perhaps. However AP5 is nothing out of the ordinary for a standard issue small-arm in 4th Ed 40K, in the same way as -1 ASM was nothing out of the ordinary for small-arms in 2nd Ed.

A -2 ASM, on the other hand, was very much a step above the norm for 2nd Ed small-arms, and similarly an AP4 small-arm for 4th Ed (of which there aren't any yet) is a clear jump up the power scale.


Wow. Imagine that!
DEFENDER Guardians have weapons where it is more ideal for the foe to move into range against you. It is almost as if the DEFENSIVE weapons are intended to be used in a DEFENSIVE fashion by DEFENDERS.
If you're going to engage in literalism (is that a word?) based just on the squad's name, I should point out that the reason Defenders are so named is because their primary role is to defend their Craftworld, and so they shouldn't be on the battlefield at all, they should be waiting back on the Craftworld for the enemy to come to them there (saying that, from what we've heard so far of the new Codex my Guardians are never going to see a battlefield again, so maybe that really was the intention...)

Eldar are light and super-mobile forces which rely on outmanouevering and surprising the enemy, they should NEVER be handing the initiative to enemy forces by sitting back and engaging in static warfare by waiting for them to come to them. That sort of silliness wastes their primary advantage and is just begging for an artillery barrage to turn them into confetti and make the dying race even more dying.

Tim

Glennie
10-08-2006, 23:40
Perhaps. However AP5 is nothing out of the ordinary for a standard issue small-arm in 4th Ed 40K, in the same way as -1 ASM was nothing out of the ordinary for small-arms in 2nd Ed.

Actually one of the things I disliked about ASM, was very rare you got your normal armour save but anyway, this is again off topic, I better stop.

Helicon_One
10-08-2006, 23:50
Actually one of the things I disliked about ASM, was very rare you got your normal armour save but anyway, this is again off topic, I better stop.
Agreed. ASMs work nicely in a low power environment like WFB or Necromunda where nearly everybody is throwing S3 attacks and the high-level weapons with modifiers are an exception. In a diverse and high-powered weapon environment like 40K its almost impossible to get the right balance between over powerful weapons and overpowerful armour (2nd Ed certainly demonstrated that, armour was a joke).

Like you say though, we're straying from topic a bit here...

Tim

Nurglitch
11-08-2006, 00:00
Corlock Striker:

You may not have noticed the following sentence in my post:
Since it is an assault-classed weapon, it can be used to soften up the enemy if things are dire and the Guardians need to assault. If you're desperate, and you need to engage in an assault to capture an object or somesuch, then the assault class of the Shuriken Catapult is handy. For the most part though you'd be daft to use Shuriken Catapult wielding troops to provide extra hitting power in assault combat. What they are good at is providing supporting fire to assault troops, something that the Shuriken Catapult is good at when close and a heavy weapon such as the Star Cannon is good at when further away.

It's just that with the current stats of the Shuriken Catapult, they are not very good at performing the function one would assume they are meant to perform from their entry in the army list. The function that most players are going to try and use them to perform, as that's what they have come to understand Defender Guardians are meant to do. Then perhaps players shouldn't make unwarranted assumptions about what Guardians are "meant to do" and analyze what they can actually do.

The fact that they don't perform this function all that well suggests that there is either an issue with the function for them implied in the Codex, or their rules and the stats of the Shuriken Catapult. I leave it up to all of you to decide what is at fault. That's an incorrect inference to make. If a tool doesn't function in the fashion you assume it to work in, then the correct inference to make is that either you're using it wrong, or it is broken. Given that Guardian Defenders can be used very effectively in the fashion I have described, they cannot be broken. Therefore the problem is with players using them incorrectly.

Skrittiblak
11-08-2006, 00:15
I'm more concerned by the fact that the most technologically advanced right (by old fluff) now has the weakest weapon than by the fact that the range is restricted to 12". I don't even play eldar.

Like I said - if they had 3 shots it would be okay. I play Nurgle Cult, Dark Eldar, Space Marines and Orks. Never Eldar. Only a fool would play Eldar after the heavy nerfing they underwent. The only saving grace if the Ulthwe farseer council "army o' doom" combined with the ultimate cheese of 3 shot AP 2 Star Cannons (yeah that's retarted).

All I can say is that the Shuriken Catapult when I started playing was the most feared weapon. Now it is the laughing stock of the 41st millenium. And anyone who says otherwise has not played eldar in 4th ed. It is in all ways worse than a Boltgun.

cailus
11-08-2006, 00:53
Let's just admit it. The current crap state of the Shuriken Catapult is a direct result of Gav Thorpe's idea that Eldar should be a horde army. This daft idea is not only fluffy but resulted in deliberate emphasise on that most horrid and boring of tactics - the use of Guardians as a meat shield for a heavy weapon.

I hate this tactic at the best of times, but the daft range on the catapult emphasises it.

Mind you I've never played against Eldar, but have seen them used. Guardians do not ever move in these battles. They stand and get obliterated while their Starcannon or Brightlance does the job of killing stuff.

At the same this man thought it was a good idea to give Blood Angels Death Company free power weapons/fists and jump packs. How very kind.

Helicon_One
11-08-2006, 01:16
Let's just admit it. The current crap state of the Shuriken Catapult is a direct result of Gav Thorpe's idea that Eldar should be a horde army.

Well, the present shuricat profile was introduced in the 3rd Ed BBB list, not the Eldar Codex, and as there's no individual attribution for the BBB list it seems a little premature to blame Gav for it.

Tim

cailus
11-08-2006, 01:35
Sorry I'm cranking cause I got ripped off in a game last night. Guy BS'd the Marine traits he was using and then had a 100 extra points on top in a 600 point battle. Not sure if he was inexperienced or cheating, but he did try to rules lawyer with false rules (I kept on referring him to the rulebook). I'll talk to him about it next time.

My last club was full of cheats and I am hoping this new one is not.

unknownps
11-08-2006, 07:36
Quote:
Originally Posted by cailus
Let's just admit it. The current crap state of the Shuriken Catapult is a direct result of Gav Thorpe's idea that Eldar should be a horde army.

hahahaha i like that one, eldar never made any sense to me.. in my mind a race that old shouldnt use a shotgun and shouldnt be filled by PDF or CDF as the case be (craftworld defense..)
i always imagined a small HARD army with aspects instead of terminators
but im sure in some future version the will change them back around away from CDF sqauds.. just not this version, or probably the next one

Corlock Striker
11-08-2006, 15:27
Then perhaps players shouldn't make unwarranted assumptions about what Guardians are "meant to do" and analyze what they can actually do.

That's an incorrect inference to make. If a tool doesn't function in the fashion you assume it to work in, then the correct inference to make is that either you're using it wrong, or it is broken. Given that Guardian Defenders can be used very effectively in the fashion I have described, they cannot be broken. Therefore the problem is with players using them incorrectly.

Generally speaking, when you make an army list, before going into your very first battle, all you have to go on for how to use a unit is their description in the Army List, and what you can infer of their purpose from that description. You're then very likely to try and use them in that fashion, which I think we can all agree is not exactly the best way to use Defender Guardians. But is it because of the purpose that is describe for them in Codex that players use them in an ineffective manner. So yes, player's are using Defender Guardians wrong, but that's because the Army List gives them an incorrect idea of how to use them.

But then again, the 12" range of the Shuriken Catapult is also just silly, considering that most other troops in the game have Rapid Fire Weapons. Let's say you've got a Guardian Squad with a Heavy Weapon Platform, and you're moving it around the battlefield, keeping it in cover as best you can. That Heavy Weapon platform somewhat restricts the Defenders' movement as it prevents them from using Fleet of Foot. So they only move 6" a turn. Now, they can level some fire power at an enemy squad from more than 12" away, about 1-6 shots. That's not exactly a massive amount of fire power. Although it is concievable that you can level that fire power at an enemy squad for a few turns before coming into range of their weapons. And yes, you could simply keep the Guardians at a distance out of the enemie's range, and thus not take wounds from shooting. But then, you don't really get to use those Shuriken Catapults, which can be so devestating when unleashed in large numbers on an enemy squad.

So you try and get the Guardians within Catapult range of the enemy squad. Well, your opponent will probably see that coming, so he doesn't move his squad. As you move towards that enemy squad you eventually come within 24" of it, and oh, look, the enemy squad can now shoot at you with their basic weapons and their heavy weapons. Some of your Guardians die, not too many though, so you think it's still worth trying to get off the Shuriken Catapult shots. Your next turn you move the Guardians within 18" of the enemy. You can fire your heavy weapon at them, but it doesn't have all that much firepower, it's got powerful fire power, but not lots of shots. The enemy can still shoot at you.

More of your Guardians die. Now, trying to get off the Shuriken Catapults isn't as worth it any more, too many Guardians have died, and we'll assume you manage to pass your morale check. The benefit of trying to get off the Shuriken Catapults shots is now up in the air. A fair number of Guardians have died, therefore, it won't be that much fire power you unleash, but you're six inches away from being in range, and if you start retreating the enemy will still be able to fire on you, and even more Guardians will die, and they might break. Best option is to move forward, get the catapults in range, maybe you'll be able to wipe out that enemy squad.

You move foward the six inches, you're within 12" now. You unleash the Heavy Weapon and the Shuriken Catapults. You kill most of the enemy squad, but not all of it. On you're opponents turn, he has to make a choice of either shooting at you, or assaulting you. His fire power has been drastically reduced by your shooting, he won't do that much damage if he shoots, and he knows the Guardians are within assault range. But then again, since you're within 12" his rapid fire weapons can now get 2 shots. But let's say he judges that that's not really worth it, and he'd rather prevent your squad from being able to shoot for a least a few turns. Defenders aren't that great in close combat, he might be able to prevent them from being able to shoot at other units for a few turns even with his reduced squad. He assaults you. Now, at least for a while, you're guardians aren't doing what they're meant to be doing, leveling massive amounts of fire power at the enemy.

The fact that they can't get off shots with their primary weapons until their within range of being assaulted is very much a problem, because it means they can only get off one round of fire before conceivably not being able to fire for quite a while. With an 18" range, at least they'd be able to get off two rounds of shots.

Now, let's say you've got a Guardian Defender Squad with a platform, and you've decided to keep them in one spot, in decent cover for the entire game, to preserve their ability to shoot the Heavy Weapon, essentially making their purpose to provide supporting fire to your army. An enemy squad starts moving towards them. Now, they'll pick off some members with their Heavy Weapon every turn, and the enemy squad won't really be able to shoot at them, so that's cool. But the Heavy Weapon won't take out that many enemy soldiers. With their movement phase the enemy gets within 12", they can't assault you on that turn, so they level either their pistols or rapid fire weapons at your Guardians. The Guardians whether it a bit better than would be expected, because they were in decent cover, but they're overall Defensive firepower has still be significantly reduced, since they enemy was also getting two shots from their weapons.

On your turn uou could move the Guardians back 6", keeping the enemy out of assault range, but that would also cause you Guardians to loose their cover save. And then they might just get demolished by enemy shooting in the next turn. So you decide to level your Shuriken Catapults at the enemy squad. But even though you've got your full squad strength, Guardians being 50/50 shots, they don't wipe out the enemy squad. Uh oh. Now the enemy squad assaults your Guardians in their next turn, once again preventing them from doing what they're supposed to be doing, providing supporting fire to your squads. Now, with an 18" range, they'd at least have a better chance of if not prevent that enemy squad from assaulting them, at least greatly reducing the squads size, since they'd get in two rounds of shooting before being assaulted, and get in at least one round of shooting with all their weaponry before the enemy can shoot at them. That's not exactly too much to ask, considering that all other comparable units in every other army get in two rounds of shooting with all the squads weapons before an approaching squad can shoot at them.

See, the Shuriken Catapult isn't all that great of a Defensive Weapon, because it doens't allow you to start defending yourself from an approaching enemy before they can do harm to you. A defensive weapon should allow you to do just that.

Nurglitch
11-08-2006, 20:58
Poor analysis, for two reasons: (1) You assume players are too stupid to actually try out an army on the table-top before playing with it, and (2) Guardian squads occur in armies composed of units which fight other armies of units on a board filled with terrain, and with a mission to accomplish.

Your theory-hammer is weak.

marv335
11-08-2006, 21:22
alternatively
wave serpent moves up in turn one. hides behind cover.
falcon does similar.
wave serpent disgorges 10 guardians who unload 20 shots into unit.
falcon does similar dropping off assault aspect.
falcon and wave serpent shoot.
guardians charge.
combat blocks line of sight to aspect.
aspect charges in next turn.

this scenario is not perfect and is counterable but demonstrates multi-unit tactics.

Outlaw289
12-08-2006, 06:58
Why not just increase the range to 18" and keep them at Assault 2?

I wouldn't have a problem with that

Though ShuriCats are the least of my "WTFs" about Guardians. I can't grasp why the Eldar would put their citizens in anything less than fine carapace armor.

Captain Optimus Metallus
12-08-2006, 07:09
Probably the same reason why the Imperium doesn't trot out Imperial Guardsmen in Power Armor with Heavy Bolters equipped with Suspensors. Because they've got a limited amount of materials. In which case, who should be getting the best armor?

A) The Aspect Warrior who'll be charging into the bloodiest combats the Eldar engage in. Or...

B) The Guardian, who's just there to provide back-up for the Aspect Warrior.

If the Eldar could, they probably would equip all their Guardians with Carapace Armor. Hell, they'd probably equip them all with Aspect Armor if they could. Likewise, the Imperium would equip every single Space Marine with a suit of Terminator Armor, a Thunder Hammer, an Assault Cannon, and a Cyclone Missile Launcher. But they can't, as neither of them have an infinite amount of supplies/money/knowledge to draw upon to build the needed weapons and armor.

Outlaw289
12-08-2006, 07:27
Probably the same reason why the Imperium doesn't trot out Imperial Guardsmen in Power Armor with Heavy Bolters equipped with Suspensors. Because they've got a limited amount of materials. In which case, who should be getting the best armor?

A) The Aspect Warrior who'll be charging into the bloodiest combats the Eldar engage in. Or...

B) The Guardian, who's just there to provide back-up for the Aspect Warrior.

If the Eldar could, they probably would equip all their Guardians with Carapace Armor. Hell, they'd probably equip them all with Aspect Armor if they could. Likewise, the Imperium would equip every single Space Marine with a suit of Terminator Armor, a Thunder Hammer, an Assault Cannon, and a Cyclone Missile Launcher. But they can't, as neither of them have an infinite amount of supplies/money/knowledge to draw upon to build the needed weapons and armor.

I don't think Carapace Armor is THAT unreasonable. Now If I said why doesn't every Eldar have a wraithcannon and Exarch armor, that'd be different. I just don't understand why the ELDAR, of all races, can't equip them with the equivalent of improved armaplas vests like Imperial Storm Troopers have.

I understand Guardians are Craftworld Militia, but you'd think they go a little further to protect their precious few citizens.

Spell_of_Destruction
12-08-2006, 08:29
Probably the same reason why the Imperium doesn't trot out Imperial Guardsmen in Power Armor with Heavy Bolters equipped with Suspensors. Because they've got a limited amount of materials. In which case, who should be getting the best armor?


You're reasoning is flawed because of the disparity in your examples.

Manpower is one thing that the Imperium is certainly not lacking. The Imperium probably COULD send out smaller number of better trained better equipped troops (look at what you can do with doctrines) but since manpower is the least expensive and most abundant resource they most often choose to take full advantage of it.

Eldar don't have this luxury so giving their militia poor equipment in order to get as many of them onto the battlefield as possible seems moronic. The situation is reversed. Manpower is not an abundant resource most definitely far more valuable than the materials used to make armour and weapons. With this in mind it makes most sense to send out your troops with the best equipment possible even if that means fewer being deployed.

Besides, are you telling me that the Eldar can't even equip their basic troops with armour superior to the flak worn by Guardsmen? Please!

Captain Optimus Metallus
12-08-2006, 09:39
Ok, so it wasn't a perfect example. The point still stands, though. The Eldar may like to equip their Guardians with better armor, but that doesn't mean they can. Carapace Armour is likely much more difficult to create then Guardian/Flak Armour. The materials are rarer, more costly to procure and/or produce, or all of the above. Nevermind that the Eldar are a race of wandering vagabonds. They have to rely on whatever resources they've got in their Craftworld. If they're short on something, then they gotta cannibalize something else. All of which adds up to a Craftworld being able to produce less of one suit of armour then of another. And Aspect Warriors are obviously at the front of the line when it comes to who gets the best armor. So that leaves the 5+ armor for the Guardians.

Kriegsherr
12-08-2006, 10:21
It has already been said, but what if the DEFENDER squads were intended to DEFEND something when things get dire? And not to blast away at 24"?

Face it: Fluffwise they are not frontline troops. As such it makes sense to provide them with shortranged, inaccurate weapons (like a lot of todays support troops get that are unlikely to confront an enemy, and whose task is NOT to confront the enemy).
Guardians can fullfill several roles on the battlefield apart of fighting, like taking objectives, guarding heavy weapons against Close range fire fighters or (small) CC-Squads or bringin some mass into an else quite expensive and small army.

With the raise of the powerlevel of Dire Avengers, there is now a really cool, very eldary standart trooper, that plays exactly like eldar should. Flexible, Mobile and rather short ranged.

I don't think what gav did to the Catapult was very clever. I would have taken away the catapult from the guardians and named their weapons "Eldar shotguns". But from a fluff perspective it makes sense to give secondline squads short-ranged weapons.

It would be more of a problem with black guardians and their frontline purpose. But then again, Black guardians don't exist anymore as it seems

Corlock Striker
14-08-2006, 14:44
It has already been said, but what if the DEFENDER squads were intended to DEFEND something when things get dire?

I agree with you. That seems to be a very good and seemingly fluffy use for the Gaurdian Defender Squads. Of course, for this purpose, I still think the Shuriken Catapult as it stands is a poorly conceived weapon.


Guardians can fullfill several roles on the battlefield apart of fighting, like taking objectives, guarding heavy weapons against Close range fire fighters or (small) CC-Squads or bringin some mass into an else quite expensive and small army.

Guading heavy weapons, against close range fire fighters or close combat squads. Let's see, most rapid-fire weapons, pistols, or other short range weapons, even when moving, have a range of 12". Now, granted when an enemy squad gets 18" away you could move your Guardians 6" to be able to fire at that enemy squad. But that could potentially pull your Guardians out of covers, denying them the cover save you've gotten for them the entire game, that helps improve their survival.

So that might not be a course of action you want to take. After all, they'll probably whether the enemy squads fire better on the next turn in cover, than if they move out of cover and inflict casualties, because other enemy unit will also open fire on them. So you keep your guardians in cover. This then means that the enemy squad moves 6" closer on the next turn, and can now fire on your Guardians before your guardians have ever gotten a chance to fire on them. Then there are jump pack or similar troops that can assault from 18" away. The Shuriken Catapult as it stands isn't as good a defensive weapon as a rapid-fire weapon because of it's 12" range. An 18" range would go a long way to improving its status as a defensive weapon.

And Nuglitch, as to my TheoryHammer being weak. I am all too aware of the fact that there are numerous other factors in play on a battle field. However, in order to assess a single variables effect in any given situation, one needs to keep all other variables constant. In addition, I really didn't feel like coming up with two full army lists, and keeping track of the motion of every unit for those two lists for a simple example. It would have been far too much work. That said, it doesn't change the final outcome of what I said. The Shuriken Catapult is a poor defensive weapon, because it does not give the Guardians a chance to fire on enemy squads, before the enemy squads can fire upon them.

Kriegsherr
14-08-2006, 16:20
I agree with you. That seems to be a very good and seemingly fluffy use for the Gaurdian Defender Squads. Of course, for this purpose, I still think the Shuriken Catapult as it stands is a poorly conceived weapon.


Our opinions seem to differ at this point. Altough I also see the argument that in other cases "fluff" or "RL thingies" seemed to be of little concern when writing the rules, and in ingame terms they tend to be less usefull in the classic cleanse mission.




Guading heavy weapons, against close range fire fighters or close combat squads. Let's see, most rapid-fire weapons, pistols, or other short range weapons, even when moving, have a range of 12". Now, granted when an enemy squad gets 18" away you could move your Guardians 6" to be able to fire at that enemy squad. But that could potentially pull your Guardians out of covers, denying them the cover save you've gotten for them the entire game, that helps improve their survival.


Now, why does every thing in the game is measured in its ability to kill X or Y?
This is why the Wraithguard, a really badass unittype with lots of uses IMHO, has become a bad name amongst some players.

The Guardians should defend. that means, if someone comes to close, let loose a storm of shurikens to kill some of that nasty CC-Squad, maybe moving back further into cover to make it harder for them to attack. I see them as a fairly static element in a else quite mobile army.

I agree though that the guardians were to expensive in the 3rd ed codex for a defensive role... were they sometimes were nothing more than meatshields.

I suspect a point drop for them in the new dex.




An 18" range would go a long way to improving its status as a defensive weapon.


Well, I meant "Defensive Weapon" as RL Thingy. There "Defensive Weapons" are short ranged, small weapons like pistols, submachine guns or short rifles (how were they called again?).
They are intended for units not dooing frontline duty, were they need their weapons only to defend themselves against enemy soldiers who managed to infiltrate / breach the frontline and attacking rear installements / troop formations.
These weapons are shortranged not only to save weight and space.... they are also shortranged to keep them from "playing rambo". Because a pc-supporter (for example) should do what he can best even under enemy fire. And its NOT fighting in most cases ;)

Its the weakness of the 40k rules that there is no rule to use all shooting weapons (maybe all other than heavy weapons) in CC or at least allowing charge reactions. If one of this would be possible, you would see why I think of it as a perfect "Defensive Weapon" in RL-sense.

That doesn't help us ingame though... so again I hope for a price drop.
The problem with the 18" range is that they would be used as close range firefighters then. Fleet until in 18" and shoot up the enemy.
Now while this perfectly represent the very disciplined and hard hitting Dire Avangers, I rather would like to see the guardians beeing allowed to use their weapons when beeing charged and strike first with them.... similarly to the ork waaghbikes, just only if they are charged. There, perfectly defensiv.

Pootleflump
14-08-2006, 17:31
If the rules for Shuriken Catapults were to change I could quite happily live with the current range and take AP4 as the improvement. I think this sits nicely with the concept of the monomolecular edge slicing through anything bar elite troopers armour. And I like the idea of lightly armoured and fast guardians using their mobility to move in quick & strike real hard when required.
Don't forget that although they are not an abundant race, there are still a few of them kicking around, and they will sacrifice themselves, if the farseers predict that in the long run it will save more of their races' precious lives.

Zerosoul
14-08-2006, 18:35
I'm more concerned by the fact that the most technologically advanced right (by old fluff) now has the weakest weapon than by the fact that the range is restricted to 12". I don't even play eldar.

Like I said - if they had 3 shots it would be okay. I play Nurgle Cult, Dark Eldar, Space Marines and Orks. Never Eldar. Only a fool would play Eldar after the heavy nerfing they underwent. The only saving grace if the Ulthwe farseer council "army o' doom" combined with the ultimate cheese of 3 shot AP 2 Star Cannons (yeah that's retarted).

All I can say is that the Shuriken Catapult when I started playing was the most feared weapon. Now it is the laughing stock of the 41st millenium. And anyone who says otherwise has not played eldar in 4th ed. It is in all ways worse than a Boltgun.

You can't be serious. "Only a fool would play Eldar" because their (3rd Ed.) basic trooper has a 12" range on their gun? I guess that Eldar players will just have to cry themselves to sleep with the best tanks in the game, Wraithlords, brightlances, Farseers, Banshees, Scorpions, Warlocks, Warp Spiders, and Vypers as their pillows.

Seriously. The 3rd Ed. Eldar list, even without any funky Craftworld stuff, is powerful. Not too powerful, mind - I'd say it's about right. Yes, there are some poor unit choices - Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers, and so on - but even those are getting buffed up in the new Codex.

Nobody says that the Dark Eldar are useless because the Splinter Rifle is a horrible gun(and it is, indeed, a horrible gun). Indeed, the consensus is that the DE Warrior is one of the best basic troops in the game, and that's in spite of the gun, not because of it. Splinter Rifles are horrible because they're contrary to what seems to be the focus of a Warrior squad - getting into close combat. I'm going to have to join the chorus of people saying that you're just using the catapults wrong. Guardians should move from cover to cover and blast away with their weapons platforms, not charge in like space marines to gun dudes down.

Corlock Striker
14-08-2006, 21:23
The Guardians should defend. that means, if someone comes to close, let loose a storm of shurikens to kill some of that nasty CC-Squad, maybe moving back further into cover to make it harder for them to attack. I see them as a fairly static element in a else quite mobile army.

I completely agree with you. But if the Guardians can't let loose with defensive fire, without either a) moving towards the enemy, or b) being first subjected to enemy fire, then it doesn't work too well in that role. If Guardians can also be charged at from outside of their weapon's range, and end up in close combat before ever using it, it doesn't work too well in that role.


I rather would like to see the guardians beeing allowed to use their weapons when beeing charged and strike first with them.... similarly to the ork waaghbikes, just only if they are charged. There, perfectly defensiv.

While this is certainly a viable option, I see this more as an ability that should be available to highly trained warriors like the Dire Avengers, rather than basic militia like the Guardians. As it would take a decent amount of training to get soldiers to stand their ground and fire their weapons at a fast approaching enemy like an orc mob, or Space Marines with Chainswords. More training than the Guardians are given in my mind.

Rabid Bunny 666
14-08-2006, 21:27
I'd love to trade up my lasguns for shotguns, the shuricat is awesome beyond my wildest dreams. I really don't see a problem with it.

To get a 12" 2 Shot strength 3 weapon? Just keep the lasguns, and rapid fire.

Rabid Bunny 666
14-08-2006, 21:30
Yeah, but then that's a rapid fire weapon and not an assault weapon.

But if you're charging with Guard, you're either playing against Tau or about to lose :D

lord_blackfang
14-08-2006, 22:43
But if you're charging with Guard, you're either playing against Tau or about to lose :D

Dunno about that... none of my assault units ever survived the 63 attacks that just 3 squads of counter-charging IG dish out.

UnRiggable
14-08-2006, 23:33
Assault 2 is great for a wave serpent driven unit

Skrittiblak
15-08-2006, 11:17
You can't be serious. "Only a fool would play Eldar" because their (3rd Ed.) basic trooper has a 12" range on their gun? I guess that Eldar players will just have to cry themselves to sleep with the best tanks in the game, Wraithlords, brightlances, Farseers, Banshees, Scorpions, Warlocks, Warp Spiders, and Vypers as their pillows.

Seriously. The 3rd Ed. Eldar list, even without any funky Craftworld stuff, is powerful. Not too powerful, mind - I'd say it's about right. Yes, there are some poor unit choices - Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers, and so on - but even those are getting buffed up in the new Codex.

Nobody says that the Dark Eldar are useless because the Splinter Rifle is a horrible gun(and it is, indeed, a horrible gun). Indeed, the consensus is that the DE Warrior is one of the best basic troops in the game, and that's in spite of the gun, not because of it. Splinter Rifles are horrible because they're contrary to what seems to be the focus of a Warrior squad - getting into close combat. I'm going to have to join the chorus of people saying that you're just using the catapults wrong. Guardians should move from cover to cover and blast away with their weapons platforms, not charge in like space marines to gun dudes down.


I may have overstated my point when I said that only a fool would play eldar. I'm also not using them wrong, as I point out - I'm not an Eldar player so I don't use them at all.

I can only tell you that in 2nd Ed Eldar basic troops had the most powerful basic weapon in the game and armour that was superior to Imperial Guard armour.

Now they have the worst weapon in the game and armour that is equal to flak armour.

The guardians have gone downhill. They used to fulfill a role identical to that of the Tau Firewarrior. Now they are an ablative meat shield for weapon teams. This is wrong for fluff reasons and is kind of depressing. I've had a soft-spot for Eldar and I find it kind of sad that now, instead of having long range and sustained fire they are forced to be so close that they can always be assaulted if they are in range to fire.

Stupid stuff. Do you think its 'random' that the Dire Avengers are being given Dire Catapults with 18" range - or is it GW's way of saying they ****ed up the Shuriken Catapult.

In all fairness the basic shuriken catapult should have had 18" range.

-

As far as DE is concerned - I have no template to guage them against. DE did not exist in 2nd ed.

marv335
15-08-2006, 11:21
i have long maintained that the eldar and dark eldar had their weapons mixed up at the start of 3rd ed.
the splinter rifle should have been 12" assault and the shuriken catapult 24" rapid fire.
everything since has been trying to paper over this error

Michaelius
15-08-2006, 12:54
True many eldar would love to get splinter rifle while probably dark eldar would be kick ass with BS4 S5 AP5 assault2 weapon especially when used together with blaster.
Oh well i hope they at least make guardians cheaper since it;s *********** depresing to pay 8 points for something that has same stats as 6 points guardsmen (-1 I and -1Ld where only LD counts) and a weapon that under some circumstances is inferior to lasgun. And comparison with DE warrior is even worse - better WS, BS, I and weapon for same cost.

Spell_of_Destruction
15-08-2006, 18:00
What it comes down to is that GW really wanted to push marines as the be all and end all in 3rd edition. This is probably a big part of why they introduced the horrible AP system rather than merely toning down save modifiers somewhat (although I actually thought they were fine as they were as you got severely punished for moving units out in the open and cover was ALWAYS useful, not only if you lost your armour save or if it was better).
Another part of this was to tone down the shuriken catapult, a weapon that had the ability to make Space Marines look truly weak. The catapult was about even with the boltgun until 4th edition when the new rapid fire rules relegated it to its current position.

Frankly I think that it should receive a basic 18" boost, not just for the Dire Catapult but for all users but that clearly isn't going to happen. Although somewhat frustrating, it doesn't bother me that much as I probably won't use many guardians in my swordwind force. The 18" dire catapult is probably second only to the pulse rifle in terms of effectiveness.



As far as DE is concerned - I have no template to guage them against. DE did not exist in 2nd ed.

Unless of course you consider Dark Eldar to be the successors of the Eldar Pirates in the 2nd ed codex in which case they were almost exactly the same as guardians IIRC.