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Elanthanis
10-08-2006, 13:30
This was something which I'm not entirely clear on- I know that these are often considered ancient warriors whose skills are passed down into the greater whole over the millenia, but at the same time, I was wondering if they're in fact relatively young.

For example, the Fall of the Eldar occured a little before M31- it's what allowed the Emperor to embark on the Crusade. Weren't the paths of the eldar kinda a reaction to that?

I guess my question is- Just how long have the Aspects themselves existed?

Inq. Veltane
10-08-2006, 14:06
The aspects have existed as long as the Path of the Eldar - which was a response to the (imminent) Fall. The Phoenix Lords themselves date to around 10,000 years ago. They are older than the Primarch but not as old as, say, the Emperor.

ryng_sting
10-08-2006, 16:05
Roughly the same time as The Fall. Perhaps just before, perhaps just after. Age isn't a problem for them, as we know.

Lord Zarkov
10-08-2006, 21:59
judging by the amount of weight the advice was given I'd say they were probably old at the fall so that makes them nearing 12,000 years old

Inq. Veltane
10-08-2006, 22:17
Except remember that the Phoenix Lords aren't the same eldar as they were when they first donned the suit. As such the age of Asurmen should, in my opinion, be dated from when Asurmen came into existance rather than when the first Asurmen was born.

Knighty
10-08-2006, 22:20
The aspects have existed as long as the Path of the Eldar - which was a response to the (imminent) Fall. The Phoenix Lords themselves date to around 10,000 years ago. They are older than the Primarch but not as old as, say, the Emperor.

The fall of the eldar happened before the emperor, as they were a long since fallen race when the crusades started. Slaneesh was already knocking about when the primarchs etc were found.

Lord Zarkov
10-08-2006, 22:23
It's the same dominating mind though as the original mind in such a suit controls the spirit pool; so the mind in Asurmen is the same as the one beloning to the first Asurmen which came into existance from his birth; he's just been rejuvanated repeatedly in his long existance

Kage2020
10-08-2006, 23:16
The fall of the eldar happened before the emperor, as they were a long since fallen race when the crusades started. Slaneesh was already knocking about when the primarchs etc were found.
Erm, that's the same time period. The Great Crusade occurred within spitting distance (in temporal terms) of the Fall-as-event, though the Fall-as-process more than likely took place over several thousand years. (I believe some timelines suggest that it took around two millennia...)

Kage

La'mour Le Breton
10-08-2006, 23:26
the emporer exsisted way before the crusade was even thought about

Hellebore
10-08-2006, 23:28
Erm, that's the same time period. The Great Crusade occurred within spitting distance (in temporal terms) of the Fall-as-event, though the Fall-as-process more than likely took place over several thousand years. (I believe some timelines suggest that it took around two millennia...)

Kage

I've never really liked that as a time frame - it's barely the lifespan of a single eldar, and the background certainly says the families of the trading craftworlds noticed the decay over generations due to their long absences.

I would place the process at 10,000 years +, so that they began to Fall during the human Golden Age - it would certainly explain their lack of human extermination policies.

As to the topic - SOME of the Phoenix Lords are 10,000+ years old - these are:

Asurmen
Jain Zar
Fuegan
Baharroth
Karandras (However, he is probably the youngest of all of them, wih perhaps the exception of Maugan Ra)
Arha
Maugan Ra

However, the term 'Phoenix' is applied to all Exarchs past a certain age; or at least the 2nd ed codex says that there are ALOT of Phoenix Lords, and the ones mentioned in the book are simply the oldest ones who started warrior shrines.

What exactly IS a Phoenix Lord? They are merely VERY old Exarchs, warriors so long on the Path of the Warrior that they have come to embody it completely. They are living (in a sense) shrines to their Aspect of War.

As to what age an Exarch needs to be to become a Phoenix Lord, I don't know. But I suspect that after a while they feel the pull of war incesantly and thus leave their shrines to wander the WebWay to satiate an insatiable desire for War.

Hellebore

IJW
10-08-2006, 23:33
I thought the disruption in the warp from the birth of Slaanesh was what cleared the warp storms hiding Earth, prompting the great crusade shortly afterwards?

That would make the older PLs 10k plus however long the fall took.

Hellebore
10-08-2006, 23:44
That would make the older PLs 10k plus however long the fall took.

Depending on whether they were born before or during the fall.

Hellebore

Kage2020
10-08-2006, 23:54
I've never really liked that as a time frame - it's barely the lifespan of a single eldar, and the background certainly says the families of the trading craftworlds noticed the decay over generations due to their long absences.
I can empathise with you. The Eldar 'fluff' has always been rather evocative, but when you immerse yourself in it everything begins to fall apart. Then again, two millennia is just under two lifespans and, arguably, around four generations (my preference). That's not too bad. Even if you figure in the supposed homeostasis of the Eldar culture, throwing it back another two or four millennia would do the trick (8-12 generations).

Of course, I would completely throw out that War in Heaven timeline of 60,000,000 years. Or, at least, divide it by ten! :D


I would place the process at 10,000 years +, so that they began to Fall during the human Golden Age - it would certainly explain their lack of human extermination policies.
That's actually a more interesting idea. I'll incorporate that into Kage-verse! :D


However, the term 'Phoenix' is applied to all Exarchs past a certain age...
And it was also used in reference to the Wraithguards/lords (or their equivalent) back in the day, i.e. Tuisich Novasmair or "Lord Phoenix".

Kage

Elanthanis
11-08-2006, 02:29
This means, assuming Eldrad didn't die, he would presently be older than the Phoenix lords, having warned the Emperor, implying his existance and power even before the Crusades?

It makes sense for Phoenix lords to have relatively short lives, or at least the bodies which possessed them. I was just trying to put into perspective the existance of the phoenix lords with some of the older members of the Eldar race.

This means essentially that they're still fairly "new" on the scene then comparably?

stompzilla
11-08-2006, 03:15
The first phoenix lords came about after the fall, when the Eldar path became a neccessity.

The fall happened towards the end of the age of strife and signalled the very beginning of the great crusade in the early 31st millenium.

Since it's the late 41st Millenium that puts the Phoenix lords at around 11,000 yrs old.

Captain Optimus Metallus
11-08-2006, 04:03
This means, assuming Eldrad didn't die, he would presently be older than the Phoenix lords, having warned the Emperor, implying his existance and power even before the Crusades?

Eldrad isn't 10,000 years old. No Eldar is anywhere near that old, with the exception of Dark Eldar and possibly Harlequins (I'm not sure if living in the Webway retards aging like warp travel or not). The one and only source for Eldrad being around that long is an Eldar Ranger being interrogated by an Inquisitor. And given the circumstances, one could hardly take his statement as fact.

Shibboleth
11-08-2006, 07:48
The fall happened towards the end of the age of strife and signalled the very beginning of the great crusade in the early 31st millenium.
That's how I see it too. The Emperor sensed the Fall/Slaanesh coming. He was readying his Crusade for launch pretty much as soon as the Warp storms were cleared.

Imp of High Noon
11-08-2006, 11:14
Eldrad isn't 10,000 years old. No Eldar is anywhere near that old, with the exception of Dark Eldar and possibly Harlequins (I'm not sure if living in the Webway retards aging like warp travel or not). The one and only source for Eldrad being around that long is an Eldar Ranger being interrogated by an Inquisitor. And given the circumstances, one could hardly take his statement as fact.


I'd like to know what you're basing that statement on? As far as I'm aware Gw has never actually stated the lifespan of an Eldar, so there's no reason to assume that the ranger was lying to his interogator. I'd actually think it more likely that he's telling the truth and rubbing it in somewhat (of course he had no idea that the "Corpse God" he was mocking has existed for the entirety of human history).
If the fluff in wd about Vect is true, then he was a child during the fall, placing him in excess of ten thousand years of age (how long does an Eldar childhood last?). It's not quite the same (may as well be though) but if you look across systems at warhammer's Dark Elves, Malekith the Witch King is a fairly lively five thousand years old, showing no sign of giving it all up and spending his days at the golf club, also no bathing in blood.
*mumble mumble* draw conclusions as you will

Terminatorphoenix
11-08-2006, 11:20
I dont think its in an eldar's nature to lie they may spin the truth slightly but lie?no its not in thier nature

Velkyn Kyil
11-08-2006, 11:32
The first phoenix lords came about after the fall, when the Eldar path became a neccessity.

The fall happened towards the end of the age of strife and signalled the very beginning of the great crusade in the early 31st millenium.

Since it's the late 41st Millenium that puts the Phoenix lords at around 11,000 yrs old.

Weren't the Path's a reaction to the graduating Fall of the Eldar? If so, they didn't come about after the Fall, rather before? As this Fall took several milennia, some started the Exodus early and made plans (the Paths) on how to avoid/limit the effects of the Fall on their craftworld.....?

Inq. Veltane
11-08-2006, 11:42
I'd like to know what you're basing that statement on? As far as I'm aware Gw has never actually stated the lifespan of an Eldar, so there's no reason to assume that the ranger was lying to his interogator.

2nd Edition Codex:Eldar gives the average lifespan of an eldar as around 1,000 years.

ryng_sting
11-08-2006, 12:20
I'd like to know what you're basing that statement on? As far as I'm aware Gw has never actually stated the lifespan of an Eldar, so there's no reason to assume that the ranger was lying to his interogator. I'd actually think it more likely that he's telling the truth and rubbing it in somewhat (of course he had no idea that the "Corpse God" he was mocking has existed for the entirety of human history).
If the fluff in wd about Vect is true, then he was a child during the fall, placing him in excess of ten thousand years of age (how long does an Eldar childhood last?). It's not quite the same (may as well be though) but if you look across systems at warhammer's Dark Elves, Malekith the Witch King is a fairly lively five thousand years old, showing no sign of giving it all up and spending his days at the golf club, also no bathing in blood.
*mumble mumble* draw conclusions as you will


Malekith's one of the foremost practitioners of Dark Magic, and Elf mages have often enjoyed longer spans even by Elven standards. The same logic applies to Eldar psykers, especially those from Ulthwe. Technically time doesn't flow in Commorragh or the Webway. I've always understood the average Eldar lifespan to be between 3,000 and 5,000 years.

Karhedron
11-08-2006, 20:55
I'd like to know what you're basing that statement on? As far as I'm aware Gw has never actually stated the lifespan of an EldarOn the contrary, the fluff from 2nd edition was pretty consistent that the Eldar have an average lifespan of around 1000 years. This also Eldrad's age meaning that he is/was pretty close to putting down roots in the Dome of Crystal Seers when he got eaten by the Blackstone Fortress.

Kage2020
11-08-2006, 21:05
Nothing to say to Karhedron's post other than "agreed".

Kage