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asmodai_dark86
10-08-2006, 16:00
Okay I've been doing this for years now (a decade and a half...) but I've become a little stuck on the chapter organisation chart.

Namely for a battle company - 2, 3, 4, 5 and (iirc) 6

7, 8, 9 are reserves

1 is terminator and veteran, 10 is of course scouts.

However, what I'm stuck on is the place of Razorbacks. Are there drawn from the motorpool like predators/whirlwinds etc, or is there a set allocation per company? Does the command section get one by default because its less then ten men, or does it too have a rhino (thus making the company roughly 105 men strong plus attaches (techmarine, servitors etc)

I thought someone would have posted it online by now but I cant see ti find it anywhere on the web. Not even GW has one up.

Does anyone have one that they could post up? I really only want to know where the place of razorbacks is, but im sure others around here wouldnt mind the full organisation chart.

schoon
10-08-2006, 17:08
Here's the deal (taken from Codex: Ultramarines 2nd): Veteran Battle Battle Battle Battle Reserve - Tactical / Armor (this would include your Razorbacks) Reserve - Tactical / Armor Reserve - Assault / Speeder & Bike Reserve - Devestator Scout

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-08-2006, 18:37
Razorbacks are stored in the company motor-pool, and issued to squads as needed I believe. It's only 'battle tanks' like Predators, Whirlwinds and Vindicators thats in a Chapter wide motor-pool.

asmodai_dark86
10-08-2006, 19:14
Ah so each company does have its own motorpool of razorbacks.

Thanks schoon but you've only answered half of it - I was out on 6th and from what Gorbad says your out on it too, but i was more curious about the composition of each company as per the index astartes.

I've seen the chart a few times so it does exist, it just seems GW havent posted it up and niethers anyone else. If you still have codex ultramarines would you mind uploading the details (not the page, thats illegal iirc, but the actual info thats on it - its not stats, and is a resource GW doesnt have available/sells in any current form so (I dont think the mods would have a problem with just that on its own)

Gen.Steiner
10-08-2006, 20:33
6th Tactical (Reserve) Company are trained in the use of Bikes and Attack Bikes.
7th Tactical (Reserve) Company are trained in the use of Landspeeders.
8th Assault (Reserve) Company are trained in the use of jump packs, bikes, attack bikes and landspeeders.
9th Devastator (Reserve) Company are trained in the use of seriously large guns.

Elements of 1st, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th Companies are usually deployed in support of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Battle Companies.

Also note that the Chapters' Fortress-Monastery will have a garrison as well as there being Marines on the Chapter Battle Barge and Strike Cruisers...

Gaebriel
10-08-2006, 21:05
Here is a reference table I wrote for my Ultramarines - which means pretty much Codex Astartes organization. Just don't be irritated by the Ultramarines specials (as well as the Forge World units included...).

The table is based on cross-referencing Codex:Ultramarines (2nd), Codex:Space Marines (3rd and 4th), as well as Insignium Astartes - adding common sense in some places...

I put Razorbacks into the Companies' motor pools (as opposed to the chapter's), based on Insignium Astartes.

Minister
10-08-2006, 21:08
Razorbacks, in common with all armour except rhinos, dreadnaughts and the 1st company's dedecated land raiders, come under the authority of the Armoury. Units on long-term attatchment will assume the company markings, and indeed may become essentially a permanant part of the company, but remain under the authority of the Armoury. Other armour remains directly under armoury control, and forms either dedecated armour units or a pool to act in support of companies as needed.

However, the Fortress-Monestary garison is normaly the duty of one of the reserve companies, there is no dedecated garison company (although there may be some personel in oversight roles even when the chapter is at war, to ensure the Serfs do their job right).

Not also that the Assault squads in companies 2-5 also act as crews for bikes and land speeders, not just the 8th.

Gen.Steiner
10-08-2006, 21:24
Not also that the Assault squads in companies 2-5 also act as crews for bikes and land speeders, not just the 8th.


I would kind of take that as a given to be honest.

Just to be clear- a ten man Assault Squad can crew six Bikes and two Attack Bikes, or five Landspeeders. Thus each Company has to have a minimum of 12 Bikes, 4 A/Bikes, and 10 Landspeeders.

Minister
10-08-2006, 21:52
Perhaps, but many people will not heve read the Great Codex (or its successor, the Insignium), and so may not know of this.

asmodai_dark86
10-08-2006, 23:59
Thats a welcome reminder, thanks very much.

Although I dont think rhinos are support - each squad has a rhino, unless theres a general lack of materials. Its standard kit, its just not always used.

Although, following on slightly from the issue around razorbacks we have dreadnoughts. Now dreadnoughts are considered part of the company formation and not the motorpool, and most people (including myself) consider a dreadnought to be an integral part of any companies profile - kinda like a father guiding his children. The question is how many's too many? Sure you'd have a few venerables up in the command section/1st company, but per company? how many?

I know I'm asking pretty specific questions but I've had a few plans recently and I need to know these things.

Minister
11-08-2006, 00:41
More than one, less than ten. For most chapters at any rate. Generally the first has the most, followed by the ninth. The 6th through 8th have less than the 2nd through 5th, whilst the tenth have none.

And yes, Dreadnaughts are part of the company.

cailus
11-08-2006, 02:38
Judging by experience I would say that the standard Space Marine company consists of the following:

Chaplain
Jump Pack and generally tooled up to kick serious butt.

Terminator Squad 1
5 Terminators - 2 assault cannons

Dreadnought
assault cannon

Tactical Squad 1
6 Marines - Plasma Gun, Lascannon

Tactical Squad 2
6 Marines - Plasma Gun, Lascannon

Tactical Squad 3
6 Marines - Plasma Gun, Lascannon

Tactical Squad 4
6 Marines - Plasma Gun, Lascannon

Scout Squad 1
5 Scouts - sniper rifles, missile launcher

Assault Marine Squad 1
10 Marines - jump pack, 2X plasma pistol Veteran Sergeant with power fist.

Landspeeder Tornado Squadron
3 Landspeeders - Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Apparently this is the actual offical Codex Astartes company organisation. It has been incorrectly interpreted by the Seers at Nottingham, however most Chapters have the correct version.

There is no such thing as a 1st company other than the Imperial Fists and Dark Angels. The 10th company is also non-existant. Terminators are all embedded into every single Company as are scouts.

And the Ultramarine 2nd company is the largest formation in the entire universe and currently makes up 75% of all armed forces in the universe.

asmodai_dark86
11-08-2006, 07:45
What in the name of Crom are you going on about?

Did I miss something or is that lot a private joke?

(could be considered spam you know...)

Shadowfax
11-08-2006, 08:19
What in the name of Crom are you going on about?

Did I miss something or is that lot a private joke?

(could be considered spam you know...)
Private? Its actually pretty obvious...

If you want it spelled out for you, that's the "Standard Space Marine Company" because its what a lot of people show up with in their army lists.

Gen.Steiner
11-08-2006, 09:25
Which is kinda sad really. :( I prefer fielding a Demi-Company (3x Tac Squads, 1x Assault, 1x Devastator, a Dread, 5 Terminators, 5-10 Scouts... some vehicles, and a command squad) because it's much more fun! :D

Fair point, Minister. If people seriously intend to write up an accurate TO&E for a Space Marine Chapter, you need to read Insignium Astartes and try and get your hands on the 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines.

Minister
11-08-2006, 13:34
The chart in the 3rd edition codex is also rather good.

schoon
11-08-2006, 15:35
From the Razorbacks entry in Codex: UM 2nd -

"Each Space marine Chapter maintains a huge arsenal of special wargear which includes variations on the basic Rhino and other armoured vehicles. ... The crews of these vehicles are drawn from the ranks of training and reserve units..."

From the 6th & 7th Company entry (ibid.) -

"In addition, the Marines of the 6th and 7th Companies can also act as crews for large, independent formations of the various armoured vehicles deployed by the Chapter."

...so the organization chart wasn't quite the whole story (as has been pointed out above).

Gaebriel
11-08-2006, 16:34
Insignium Astartes treats Razorbacks from the point of view of a transport vehicle rather than a light tank :

"All of the Companies, with the exception of the Scout company, maintain a pool of transport vehicles. The most common of these are the Rhino and it's up-gunned gunned variant the Razorback. [...]"

"[...] Heavier tanks and more specialized vehicles are held in a central pool [...]" (on Predators and Land Raiders)

I think that Insignium Astartes and the 2nd edition Codex work together fairly well, but in contradicting cases Insignium Astartes leads the way - but that's a personal opinion...

Minister
11-08-2006, 17:18
Drawn from and members of are not the same thing. Though it's bending the old fluff to fit the new, I think it would be reasonable to say that the vehicle crews are members of the armoury or the company their vehicle is attatched to, and that these crews are chosen during their service in the reserve companies.

Gen.Steiner
11-08-2006, 21:54
Personally, I would take Codex: Ultramarines over the IA myself, but I've always considered Razorbacks to be held at the Company level as transports for command squads or demi-squads and the like.

Minister
11-08-2006, 23:31
Quite possible (and they're still Combat Squads unless someone's changed it whilst I was drowning in Goblin Green).

Still, I like my fudge.

Gen.Steiner
12-08-2006, 10:16
Ah, yes, the Combat Squad - I just prefer Forgeworld's nomenclature of Demi-Squad (see Imperial Armour Volume 2) because I'm a bit loony like that, and you can also apply it to things like ... "Demi-Company" or "Demi-Chapter" and sound all arcane and Space Marine-y.

Or possibly it just makes me sound like a knob, I dunno. :)

Gaebriel
12-08-2006, 10:40
You can always call them Battle squads - they mutilated the designation in 3rd edition :cries:

I'm not too fond of 3rd edition writeups - I reference it last, even after 4th...

Gen.Steiner
12-08-2006, 11:04
Battle Squads? :confused:

What's that from? Rogue Trader?

Gaebriel
12-08-2006, 11:11
Nope, from the rehash of the Squad organization paragraph originating from the 2nd edition Codex. The paragraph was published within the Codex Astartes article in Index Astartes I (I think), during 3rd edition.

Someone took out the Combat, and replaced it with Battle - don't ask me why... :(

Gen.Steiner
12-08-2006, 11:21
Gnnn... how dribbling. Oh well.

Captain Optimus Metallus
12-08-2006, 11:21
I would kind of take that as a given to be honest.

Just to be clear- a ten man Assault Squad can crew six Bikes and two Attack Bikes, or five Landspeeders. Thus each Company has to have a minimum of 12 Bikes, 4 A/Bikes, and 10 Landspeeders.

Personally I prefer 10 Bikes and 10 Attack Bikes. Works out perfectly. Two full 10-man Assault Squads can be split into two full Bike Squadrons (5 Bikers + Attack Bike) and one full Attack Bike Squadron (All 3 Attack Bikes).

Gen.Steiner
12-08-2006, 11:24
Not really, because then you'll have members of the two squads in the same squad.

Think about it:

5 + A/Bike = 7
5 + A/Bike = 7
3 A/Bikes = 6

That means that one of the squads will have members of Assault squads 6 and 7 in - which, while possible, doesn't feel right to me.

Captain Optimus Metallus
12-08-2006, 11:25
I miss Combat Squads, myself. Being forced to take a full 10-man squad was a pain in 2nd edition because they were 300 points at least. But with 3rd edition and on, a full 10-man squad is now 150 points, so I don't see why they couldn't have kept the 10-man squad deal. They could've done it like the Imperial Guard, where every squad save one must be full strength. Yeah, you can recreate Combat Squads with the current rules, but I like the idea of being able to use a single Force Organization Chart to represent a Batlte Company. Oh well.

Captain Optimus Metallus
12-08-2006, 11:27
Not really, because then you'll have members of the two squads in the same squad.

Think about it:

5 + A/Bike = 7
5 + A/Bike = 7
3 A/Bikes = 6

That means that one of the squads will have members of Assault squads 6 and 7 in - which, while possible, doesn't feel right to me.

I don't see how that'd be a problem, though. Space Marines are constantly fighting alongside members of other Companies in battle (Whether they be 1st, 10th, Reserve Company, or another Battle Company), or fighting alongside other Chapters in larger conflicts. If they can mix squads from different Companies and Companies from different Chapters, then I don't see why they can't mix individual Marines from two different squads from the same Company.

Gen.Steiner
12-08-2006, 11:31
Two points:

1) You can represent a full Battle Company in one Org Chart - although there's not enough room for their vehicle support, really.

2) Because ... it feels wrong. Mixing companies in a strike group? No worries. Mixing individual squad members? Eeeah, I dunno, I mean, whatever works for you, but it just... it feels wrong.

Minister
12-08-2006, 16:32
You're generally pushing it to field all of the dreadnaughts for most battle companies, but you're fine as long as the Assault Marines deploy as jump troops.

malika
12-08-2006, 16:36
This (http://wiki.anargo-sector.net/index.php?title=Maledictors#Organisation) might interest you :)

Gen.Steiner
12-08-2006, 16:37
Well, try this:

HQ1: Captain, command squad, Librarian.
HQ2: Chaplain
E1: Dreadnought
E2: Dreadnought
E3: Techmarine, servitors
T1-6: 10 man Tactical Squads
FA1-2: 10 man Assault Squads
HS1-2: 10 man Devastator Squads
HS3: Predator

Add Rhinos and Razorbacks to suit, et voila - most of a Battle Company. There's not enough vehicles or Dreadnoughts really, but it'll do...